What Are The Biggest Challenges/Frustrations Men Have In Dating That Women Should Know About?

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Jul 3, 2020
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15
If you would, I'd be curious to know, from a guy with your experience with women's dating lives and psychology, what would you consider/teach to be the napkin-level fundamentals of successful women's 'game' with men (besides looking good, of course)? Like if a fairly smart, attractive, and sociable girl wanted a guy just a tad out of her league, for anything more than a hookup.

I think some of the things that a woman could do to successfully reel in a man might actually correlate a lot to what men are frustrated about not getting from women.
..

If I could sum everything up, I'd probably say it's these 4 things...

1. Perceived value

This looks like believing that she's worthy and valuable to have the guy she wants in her life, positioning herself so that he immediately thinks she's valuable, and then communicating in a way that shows the man she's slightly above him in value but that he's still valuable and amazing in his own right (this last one is similar to what a lot of old school PUA stuff looks like). This makes a guy feel like she's special, unique, and different than all the other women he's met out there.

2. Connection

This looks like creating positive shared experiences together so that he misses her when she's not around and creating a range of emotional experiences together so that he has a depth of connection with her, unlike what he has with most women.

3. Polarity

This includes masculine/feminine energy dynamics by being in her feminine and pushing a man into his masculine as well as light/dark polarity. This is what creates passion between two people and gets a man's primal drives going so that he wants to dominate her, protect her, provide for her, and feel like she's irresistible.

4. Alignment

This looks like showing a man that you're on the same side as each other, that your values align, and that you're someone that he can see himself being with in the far distant future, someone who has his back and you're growing in a similar direction as each other.

Obviously, there's a lot of nuance and there's a lot more in depth stuff there, but if a woman wants to attract a high quality man, these are the things she needs to focus on with him.

Personally I don't think it's useful so much to compare gender pain points (like the percentage of celibate guys vs the percentage of girls who can't get relationships or something like that) because frankly I don't think it helps anyone get better. Many of the MGTOW type guys on youtube are obsessed with these type of statistics and wallow in it ad nauseum, and the most it seems to do is to produce a strange mix of victimhood and reactive distrust.

You're absolutely right. But that's men looking at stats that victimize men.

If I tell YOU that 1/4 men haven't had sex in a year and that's a 70% increase from just a few years ago, that has a very different effect than telling a woman that 1/4 of men haven't had sex in a year... because one of them is telling you that things are difficult for you... and then other is telling someone that things are difficult for this person they're trying to have a relationship with.

What this potentially can do is give women the ability to have compassion for men. And if they have compassion for men, they can be on the same side instead of it looking like us vs them. Instead, "we all have it difficult and we're all in this together, trying to get the same things."

That's the value of it... raising their consciousness level to "we're in it together" instead of "I'm trying to get my needs met by fighting this person who has everything easy" in their lives.

It doesn't always work but it can help a lot of women understand men and their challenges a lot better. And if they understand men's challenges, they can potentially connect with men on a deeper level and have the man feel like she understands him better.

I believe that the healthiest outlook is every man and woman aiming for the top of their respective spheres, accepting that the world is inherently competitive and that people are self-centered and that's fine, and being satisfied with wherever they land after they have worked on themselves as far as they are capable or willing - which for anyone is way higher than they would achieve by accident.

Right but who wants to settle? We all want someone who is a little out of our league... or at least someone we believe is a little out of our league.

That's one of the problems with dating these days... everyone wants the best and nobody wants to be the person who deserves the best.
Do I care if women don't know about the 80-20 rule in their sexual selection? Nope. Does she want to think about it? Probably not. Would it help either of us to dwell on it? I doubt it.

Right, it's not what you want them to know.

One of the challenges that a lot of women have is that they objectify men (just like men do with women). A lot of women see men as these confidence creatures who have no emotion and life is easy for them because society helps men.

That objectification separates us. And it's our vulnerabilities that connect us. So if we can show women that we're vulnerable as people, and it's not just some trick to get into their pants, they may be able to feel more connected with us as a whole.

Just like learning about women and their challenges has allowed me to feel more connected to women.

All I really want women to do to increase their appeal (sexually and as a companion) to their ideal men, while I focus on my appeal to my ideal woman.

The only real disappointment I've felt for a woman is when she does something that she was taught 'real women do' and it fails with me, and she's hurt or confused by it. That could have been fixed. But her dwelling on my frustrations with the female nature? Not useful, I think.

Right... and a lot of women feel that way about the entire PUA community. Like you're here learning techniques and it's turning you into this sleazeball that takes from women (this is what most women think of the PUA community) instead of learning how to be a man and a gentleman who is naturally what women want (many women think this is what men should be learning).

But if she knows that you came from a place (I'm just making this up because I don't know you) where you were a virgin until you were 27 and approached 100 women and couldn't get a number... or your first girlfriend in high school, who you thought you were going to marry and gave her a ring, slept with all of your best friends (this part is actually my story) and that you're doing this so that you can build your communication skills and make a woman feel safe, loved, and cherished in a relationship, she may have a little more compassion for you learning how to actually have options with women.
 
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DoWhatWorks

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
168
That's one of the problems with dating these days... everyone wants the best and nobody wants to be the person who deserves the best.

^^^ This. Couldn’t agree more.

I also find people would rather complain how things “should be” rather than accept & more importantly act on how they are.

E.g. For men girls are shallow why should I have a 6 pack & make 6 figures to attract IG models?

E.g. For women I don’t get it I’m super smart & caring but the guy I like, likes an airhead blonde

This is a huge opportunity though. If the guy gets in financial & healthy shape without being that typical jock type he’ll clean up.

The girl who works on being as attractive as that IG model but STILL is super smart & caring... Will get more marriage proposals then she can count

If you take the harder path you end up attracting very wholesome well balanced people who make for great relationships.

I’ve seen this glimpses of this 1st hand & I’m nowhere near where I aim to be.
 

Will_V

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
91
If I could sum everything up, I'd probably say it's these 4 things...

1. Perceived value

This looks like believing that she's worthy and valuable to have the guy she wants in her life, positioning herself so that he immediately thinks she's valuable, and then communicating in a way that shows the man she's slightly above him in value but that he's still valuable and amazing in his own right (this last one is similar to what a lot of old school PUA stuff). This makes a guy feel like she's special, unique, and different than all the other women he's met out there.

2. Connection

This looks like create positive shared experiences together so that he misses her when she's not around and creating a range of emotional experiences together so that he has a depth of connection with her, unlike what he has with most women.

3. Polarity

This includes masculine/feminine energy dynamics by being in her feminine and pushing a man into his masculine as well as light/dark polarity. This is what creates passion between two people and gets a man's primal drives going so that he wants to dominate her, protect her, provide for her, and feel like she's irresistible.

4. Alignment

This looks like showing a man that you're on the same side as each other, that your values align, and that you're someone that he can see himself being with in the far distant future, someone who has his back and you're growing in a similar direction as each other.

Obviously, there's a lot of nuance and there's a lot more in depth stuff there, but if a woman wants to attract a high quality man, these are the things she needs to focus on with him.

Solid points there. I hadn't thought of alignment much, but any girl that shows support and enthusiasm about my goals definitely gets massive instant rapport. I would love for women to show more of this, and to try to fit themselves in as an essential part of the development of my goals when angling for a relationship.

I probably didn't explain myself very well in the previous comment, but it seems maybe we're talking about slightly different things. It's not that I don't want women to know about men's struggles in general. I think it would be good to have a general empathy between the sexes and it would be good to create a more complete view of things on both sides.

However I don't want any sort of pity or concession to have been a significant factor in her decision to be with me, because I think that's a road to disaster in a long term relationship. If she has a choice between a guy who never had a problem at all with women, and me, then if she picked me it should be because I make her more excited, more horny, and more enthusiastic, and nothing else. I want to win, so to speak, on an even playing field according to the most discriminating aspects of her sexual selection. And I will do the same for her.

I think this is important because the worst thing that can happen in a relationship is the negotiation of desire. And the moment someone makes a concession, they will feel that they are owed, and sooner or later the negotiation will begin in one form or another. Someone will get the better of the negotiation, the other will feel swindled, and then it will spiral downhill from there.

The last thing I want to see on men's side of things, on principle, is to enter the same back-footed negotiation of success that women have entered into in the last few decades in work, social life, love life, the bedroom and pretty much everywhere else. Because this type of negotiation, even if it's for something that men generally would be happy for women to achieve, leaves a bitter taste and an implicit, covert reproach toward the opposite gender. And I think it will eventually result in a complete strategic failure and the opposite result.

So in my mind, it's best for men and women to both be realistic about themselves, but open to doing whatever they can to explore and develop their potential. They should feel like whatever they get is the absolute best they can get, or as much as they can possibly get with the amount of work they are willing to put in, without any concession (empathy notwithstanding) for the difficulties the other has. And that will create a genuine feeling of desire for the other person that will last a long time.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
Solid points there. I hadn't thought of alignment much, but any girl that shows support and enthusiasm about my goals definitely gets massive instant rapport. I would love for women to show more of this, and to try to fit themselves in as an essential part of the development of my goals when angling for a relationship.

Yeah, alignment is a lot more than that though.

I'm in Ukraine at the moment and yesterday, one of my ex gfs here came to interpret for me during the signing of a rental contract of mine. She did it for free.

During the signing, she straightened out both the rental agent and the property owner, had them fix the contract, and defended me in a few different cases without even needing to talk to me about what was said.

That's one element of partnership right there. She has fierce loyalty towards me even though we haven't dated in a year and a half.

Imagine having a woman who is always on your side and fights for you and your best interests in every situation, making sure you're taken care of and that someone is always there to have your back... doesn't that sound awesome?

I'm not sure if you've had it before but it goes a long way to making me feel like a woman is the right woman for me.

And there are several other things that go along with alignment and partnership as well.

I probably didn't explain myself very well in the previous comment, but it seems maybe we're talking about slightly different things. It's not that I don't want women to know about men's struggles in general. I think it would be good to have a general empathy between the sexes and it would be good to create a more complete view of things on both sides.

Yeah, that makes sense.

However I don't want any sort of pity or concession to have been a significant factor in her decision to be with me, because I think that's a road to disaster in a long term relationship. If she has a choice between a guy who never had a problem at all with women, and me, then if she picked me it should be because I make her more excited, more horny, and more enthusiastic, and nothing else. I want to win, so to speak, on an even playing field according to the most discriminating aspects of her sexual selection. And I will do the same for her.

I think this is important because the worst thing that can happen in a relationship is the negotiation of desire. And the moment someone makes a concession, they will feel that they are owed, and sooner or later the negotiation will begin in one form or another. Someone will get the better of the negotiation, the other will feel swindled, and then it will spiral downhill from there.

That's an interesting metaphor. I'm not sure if I've experienced that before so thank you for the perspective.

The last thing I want to see on men's side of things, on principle, is to enter the same back-footed negotiation of success that women have entered into in the last few decades in work, social life, love life, the bedroom and pretty much everywhere else. Because this type of negotiation, even if it's for something that men generally would be happy for women to achieve, leaves a bitter taste and an implicit, covert reproach toward the opposite gender. And I think it will eventually result in a complete strategic failure and the opposite result.

Yeah, you're probably right. It also has resulted in a lot of abuses of power and privilege and a lot of people don't like that.
So in my mind, it's best for men and women to both be realistic about themselves, but open to doing whatever they can to explore and develop their potential. They should feel like whatever they get is the absolute best they can get, or as much as they can possibly get with the amount of work they are willing to put in, without any concession (empathy notwithstanding) for the difficulties the other has. And that will create a genuine feeling of desire for the other person that will last a long time.

I can see how you'd want that. I think it's a very challenging outcome to achieve. I think it's a noble pursuit though. It would probably require a societal mindset shift.
 

Will_V

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
91
Yeah, alignment is a lot more than that though.

I'm in Ukraine at the moment and yesterday, one of my ex gfs here came to interpret for me during the signing of a rental contract of mine. She did it for free.

During the signing, she straightened out both the rental agent and the property owner, had them fix the contract, and defended me in a few different cases without even needing to talk to me about what was said.

That's one element of partnership right there. She has fierce loyalty towards me even though we haven't dated in a year and a half.

Imagine having a woman who is always on your side and fights for you and your best interests in every situation, making sure you're taken care of and that someone is always there to have your back... doesn't that sound awesome?

I'm not sure if you've had it before but it goes a long way to making me feel like a woman is the right woman for me.

And there are several other things that go along with alignment and partnership as well.



Yeah, that makes sense.



That's an interesting metaphor. I'm not sure if I've experienced that before so thank you for the perspective.



Yeah, you're probably right. It also has resulted in a lot of abuses of power and privilege and a lot of people don't like that.


I can see how you'd want that. I think it's a very challenging outcome to achieve. I think it's a noble pursuit though. It would probably require a societal mindset shift.
Great point about loyalty there. That sounds like a rock solid frame you set. And it's interesting that the context was social - I think a woman is incredibly useful to a man as his social representative and softer or more disarming face to his acquaintances. A woman who can hold court socially when he is busy, and wield the feminine art of putting restless men at ease, for the benefit of her man.

Yes my point is very theoretical as it is not the way people look at self improvement in general. Yet I think it helps to teach everyone from a point of reference to themselves, without requiring anything more than the drive to acquire the best opportunities for themselves.

Glad to get your perspective!
 

Rain

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
335
That's one element of partnership right there. She has fierce loyalty towards me even though we haven't dated in a year and a half.
How did the dating between you and her end? Were you both exclusive when dating?
 

POB

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 13, 2019
Messages
96
Location
South America
From my personal experience:

1) Flakinness/time wasting
Girls are terrible to manage their personal lives (quadruple that if shes in her 20s) so they don't give a crap if they are wasting your time.
You, OTOH, have to be on point with everything when you are seducing her.
(e.g. girl 15 minutes late for first date=whatever....guy 15 minutes for first date late= prob loose the lay).

2) excessive filters and photoshopping
This is probably due to some distorted self-image - as chicks are way more conscious about how they look than us. But between make-up, filters and photoshop like apps, it's hard to get a grip of what a woman really looks like these days. Until pipi in vagina and at least one sleep over, you really don't know.

3) Insecurities
Every
woman has insecurities about what men and other women think about them. You know that bad-ass business mogul who runs a fortune 500 company? She probably is the most insecure of them all when it comes to men! Yep, it's hard for her to get someone of the same caliber...but when she does, she becomes self-aware of her flaws - and they are maximized because she is very successful!
Instagram models? The same.
Famous actress? the same.
Every single woman is the same in that regard...and this is heavily accentuated during the first dates if she decides she's attracted to you.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
How did the dating between you and her end? Were you both exclusive when dating?
Yeah, I broke up with her. She wanted to get married and have kids and I wanted to date around some more.

I had just gotten out of a long hiatus on dating and she was the first girl I met in Ukraine (I cold approached her in a park).

She didn't tell me until we broke up but she was just getting divorced when we met and now she's married again, lol.

As cool as women are in Ukraine, they have a problem with divorce about the same as we do in the states.
 

Blackheart

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
47
Guys above have already written the most important things. I would just add few things that maybe were omitted (or I didn’t see them while reading posts) I think one of main challenges men face are:

  • Women’s unrealistic expectations about compatibility (attainability) in the sense they want their male copy. Every girl, even the worst one, took her personality and social value with all qualities, flaws and intellectual level as indicator of what is attractive and wants completely the same male. So, pretty often some guy that differs in some aspects than she (even if that difference is positive and slightly) will be ruled out as dating material and claimed not attractive enough or completely unattractive (depends how big differences are and how confident girl is) even if he is super sexy.
  • Girls often think that their good look will them provide relationships and connections with men they want and often don’t invest anything in the improving of their personality, with mindset that they are hot and prize which leads to expectations that men should adapt to them. This leads to frustrations to both sides because it is impossible to build connection with someone who doesn’t have much interests, passions, experience or opinion about something.
  • Girls are often unreceptive (closed off) to unknown guys during daygame, no matter if they like the guy and how he approached them. You can open them but you can’t reach hook up point no matter what you do. It happened to me countless times that girl is unreceptive when I approach her and then when we latter during day meet mutual friend she completely melts down and shows interest.
  • Inexperienced girls that don’t want to date anybody expect the guys they are 100% sure about and see themselves in 5+ year relationship. Combine this with above mentioned facts that they are closed off to men outside social circle, that is hard to establish good connection with them and be their male copy and it leads to girls and guys who didn’t have simply date for months or even years.
If I remember anything else I will add it. Maybe some things sound like nonsense but thrust me those are things I see constantly for years. Stay safe.
 

MarkA

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
20
I think the problems many men face ultimately come back to a sense of entitlement that lots of hot girls have due to be chased after for many years.

The result is the following

1. It makes many of them very passive and unwilling to make an effort as they fear rejection and excuse it by saying it's the man's job.
2. As Patrice O'Neal says many of them are 'front loaded' as in they think looking attractive is enough and not having a personality is immaterial.
3. They might have a sense of what they want (although for many it is a laundry list) but not what they have to offer that men actually want, especially their target market.
e.g. negative outlook - online profiles complaining about men but offering nothing positive of interest for men.
4. Poor communication skills - ironically as men are supposed to be this way actually women are frequently bad. Passive aggression is a big no no in my book. Speak your mind with facts not feelings.

Lastly manipulation is not cool. My personal pet peev is girls trying to love bomb me.
 
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