What Are The Biggest Challenges/Frustrations Men Have In Dating That Women Should Know About?

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
Hey guys,

I'm actually a women's dating coach and one of the questions I get a lot from the women in our community is... "what do MEN think of this?"

So I wanted to see if you could help some women out. I'm looking to learn more about what you think the biggest challenges are for men in dating women right now.

What do you think? What challenges or frustrations do you have around dating, women, or relationships right now?

Thanks

- M
 

Chase

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
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Messages
3,897
For anyone who doesn't know, Matt runs one of the biggest women's dating advice companies around.

He's legit.

(he should probably also be ranked way higher than 'Rookie' but he doesn't want the pressure ;) )
 

DoWhatWorks

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 7, 2019
Messages
170
Hey guys,

I'm actually a women's dating coach and one of the questions I get a lot from the women in our community is... "what do MEN think of this?"

So I wanted to see if you could help some women out. I'm looking to learn more about what you think the biggest challenges are for men in dating women right now.

What do you think? What challenges or frustrations do you have around dating, women, or relationships right now?

Thanks

- M

This is an interesting conversation to have. Refreshing to hear how some woman are pro-actively wanting to understand men more.

I’ll put my empathy hat on & give you challenges depending on “2 types” of guy.

Average guy

Challenge 1: Girls are “Flaky” e.g. they won’t commit to a date to hang out or they will agree before cancelling

Challenge 2: Girls are more emotional and do not tend to communicate logically

E.g. women generally prefer to say “I’ll let you know” when asked out on a date rather than “no thank you” as in their mind it’s more polite

Whereas a typical guy will take that at face value & will very likely follow up. Which leaves both parties frustrated lol as the girl is like “why doesn’t he take the hint” & the guy is like “why won’t she get back to me!?”

Challenge 3: girls can change their mind... A lot

E.g. They are likely to happily enter a casual relationship before changing their mind a few months in and demand “it goes somewhere”

Challenge 4: girls aren’t explicit enough with their interest

It’s a shame I even have to say it but the fact that “resting bitch faces” is the norm says it all.

Average guys aren’t as confident & need more of a green light to make a move.

Attractive guy (the man your audience wants)

This guy has a different sets of challenges and he typically used to be the “average guy”

He learnt to accept woman’s natures, make himself more attractive & push the right buttons to consistently get girls to like him.

Challenge 1: Girls fall for him “too quickly” or demand too much too soon.

Because he’s got so used to girls coming and going as he gained experience it takes him longer to get attached.

The solution here is to be warm, feminine & patient to prove to him over time that you’re different

E.g. if you want him to sleep round but he’s not ready, ease off... Make him a nice dinner/offer a massage and he may get tangled by your web.

In short you’ll catch more bees with honey

Challenge 2: Girls don’t know to keep us around with their femininity

An experienced guy has options so will have zero tolerance for drama, games & excessive sarcasm.

This is synonymous with modern woman/dating though.

Although average guys will put up with it... Experienced guys won’t or at best they’ll keep you in the “casual category”

This is why you see older white man speaking so highly of Thai girls lol. This tends to annoy western woman but they should take a step back & learn what these girls are doing differently

Challenge 3: lack of “girlfriend material” women

For the most part men don’t care about how much you earn or the PHD you’re studying.

As long as you’re positive, feminine & pleasant to be around (all while being attractive) you’re halfway there.

The rest comes from your attitude I.E how you handle yourself (e.g. you like bars instead of getting flat out drunk in clubs)

And most importantly for guys whether you have always been like that?

We know from a mile away if you’ve been in serial relationships or had a lot of ONS & now want to convince us that you’re a virgin lol.

This is longer than I planned but I enjoyed writing it out haha - hope that helps
 
Last edited:

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
Lol, thanks Chase.

This is an interesting conversation to have. Refreshing to hear how some woman are pro-actively wanting to understand men more.

I’ll put my empathy hat on & give you challenges depending on “2 types” of guy.

Average guy

Challenge 1: Girls are “Flaky” e.g. they won’t commit to a date to hang out or they will agree before cancelling

Challenge 2: Girls are more emotional and do not tend to communicate logically

E.g. women generally prefer to say “I’ll let you know” when asked out on a date rather than “no thank you” as in their mind it’s more polite

Whereas a typical guy will take that at face value & will very likely follow up. Which leaves both parties frustrated lol as the girl is like “why doesn’t he take the hint” & the guy is like “why won’t she get back to me!?”

Challenge 3: girls can change their mind... A lot

E.g. They are likely to happily enter a casual relationship before changing their mind a few months in and demand “it goes somewhere”

Challenge 4: girls aren’t explicit enough with their interest

It’s a shame I even have to say it but the fact that “resting bitch faces” is the norm says it all.

Average guys aren’t as confident & need more of a green light to make a move.

Attractive guy (the man your audience wants)

This guy has a different sets of challenges and he typically used to be the “average guy”

He learnt to accept woman’s natures, make himself more attractive & push the right buttons to consistently get girls to like him.

Challenge 1: Girls fall for him “too quickly” or demand too much too soon.

Because he’s got so used to girls coming and going as he gained experience it takes him longer to get attached.

The solution here is to be warm, feminine & patient to prove to him over time that you’re different

E.g. if you want him to sleep round but he’s not ready, ease off... Make him a nice dinner/offer a massage and he may get tangled by your web.

In short you’ll catch more bees with honey

Challenge 2: Girls don’t know to keep us around with their femininity

An experienced guy has options so will have zero tolerance for drama, games & excessive sarcasm.

This is synonymous with modern woman/dating though.

Although average guys will put up with it... Experienced guys won’t or at best they’ll keep you in the “casual category”

This is why you see older white man speaking so highly of Thai girls lol. This tends to annoy western woman but they should take a step back & learn what these girls are doing differently

Challenge 3: lack of “girlfriend material” women

For the most part men don’t care about how much you earn or the PHD you’re studying.

As long as you’re positive, feminine & pleasant to be around (all while being attractive) you’re halfway there.

The rest comes from your attitude I.E how you handle yourself (e.g. you like bars instead of getting flat out drunk in clubs)

And most importantly for guys whether you have always been like that?

We know from a mile away if you’ve been in serial relationships or had a lot of ONS & now want to convince us that you’re a virgin lol.

This is longer than I planned but I enjoyed writing it out haha - hope that helps

There are a lot of women learning about how to better connect with men. Many think that there's a lot more than men looking to learn more about connecting with women but there's some debate around that.

I appreciate the lengthy writeup. These are all topics that I talk about so this will work well with what I'm creating. Thank you.
 

Train

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
206
I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on here! As a guy who's still newbie, I'd say challenges for me are as follows (no particular order):

  1. Fear of false accusations. I've heard enough horror stories of guys' lives being destroyed over claims that turn out to be false.
  2. Dealing with unrealistic expectations in online dating. Women are inundated with solicitations from men online (ex. Instagram, Tinder, etc.). I've found this to skew their expectations, at least online. I meet more receptive girls I like back in 1 single night out (pre-corona) compared to a week of swiping on Tinder. Makes online dating somewhat soul-sucking every single time I try it. Girls online are very flakey and tend to ghost. But the same girls would probably be more receptive in person.
  3. Societal views on femininity, masculinity. There is this push on ensuring equality for women. No problem with that but I've found that femininity is being undervalued. A woman can be feminine but still strong of will, ambitious, etc. And the whole men vs women power dynamic is toxic to say the least. I'm looking to get along with girls and not engage in power struggles constantly.
  4. Attention seekers. I've been in interactions with girls where it turned out all they wanted was my attention or validation. To each their own. But it was a challenge in untangling when girls were interested in meeting up and actually wanting to date versus just being bored or looking to feel good about themselves. In other words, the challenge was being strung along.

There are things I can personally do to mitigate these challenges. But definitely women can help mitigate these and make the whole process smoother.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
I look forward to reading everyone's thoughts on here! As a guy who's still newbie, I'd say challenges for me are as follows (no particular order):

  1. Fear of false accusations. I've heard enough horror stories of guys' lives being destroyed over claims that turn out to be false.
  2. Dealing with unrealistic expectations in online dating. Women are inundated with solicitations from men online (ex. Instagram, Tinder, etc.). I've found this to skew their expectations, at least online. I meet more receptive girls I like back in 1 single night out (pre-corona) compared to a week of swiping on Tinder. Makes online dating somewhat soul-sucking every single time I try it. Girls online are very flakey and tend to ghost. But the same girls would probably be more receptive in person.
  3. Societal views on femininity, masculinity. There is this push on ensuring equality for women. No problem with that but I've found that femininity is being undervalued. A woman can be feminine but still strong of will, ambitious, etc. And the whole men vs women power dynamic is toxic to say the least. I'm looking to get along with girls and not engage in power struggles constantly.
  4. Attention seekers. I've been in interactions with girls where it turned out all they wanted was my attention or validation. To each their own. But it was a challenge in untangling when girls were interested in meeting up and actually wanting to date versus just being bored or looking to feel good about themselves. In other words, the challenge was being strung along.

There are things I can personally do to mitigate these challenges. But definitely women can help mitigate these and make the whole process smoother.

Hey man, I think those are all valid concerns and I think they would be beneficial for women to hear about so I appreciate your contribution!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
393
This is a great question. IMO the #1 challenge has got to be something to the effect of: We know women love and want masculine men, but masculinity is more and more under attack in the mainstream.

This will of course cause fewer and fewer men to be masculine, particularly in leading a courtship or relationship. This is definitely a two way street, as men need to know how to lead a courtship properly and not in a way where a woman would ever consider making an accusation. But the more women in general talk shit about masculinity, the fewer masculine men there will be.

The only other general frustration I can think of is: Just like women complain that good men are hard to find, I think men can also say good women are hard to find.

I'm talking women who are capable of controlling their emotions, have their shit together, are/can be independent, are funny, and are happy day in and day out. And who take care of their bodies for themselves, not just because it's a box to tick to attract a mate. Also add to that not being a single mother, and this is pretty hard to find.

Just my two cents.
 

Lover

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I feel like most women lack the right language/vocabulary to express when something feels off. This has annoyed me for a long time because I'm a pretty simple dude. If something's wrong, then talk about it. And talk about it in a mature way.

How does the less mature way look?

In relationships, it's this wishy-washy thing where they express something that sounds like a big problem. Then you find out the REAL problem is something completely else. I think a lot can relate to this one. Just get to the point lol.

With girls you just hooked up with, they get weird if they felt degraded once you slept with them or they felt you didn't treat them right somewhere. Examples:
  • "You violated my consent!" - Yet, she never gave any indication that I was overstepping. (and this is another frustration: girl getting their boundaries crossed and not saying anything. Maybe they need a language for this as well in the heat, not during their post-coital reflections. Speak up! A guy's intention is not to make her feel bad about sleeping with him)
  • "My girl friends said you didn't treat me right!" - I persisted that we should meet at my place, but I gave her the option to skip for another time. She decided to come by anyway. She had her fair share of orgasms. But I'm not treating her bad because I don't want breakfast with her. And stop talking on behalf of your friends.
All these childish ways of saying this stuff is a huge turn off to me.

Personally, I love when a girl knows how to ask about something I did that seemed weird or off to her. It doesn't matter to me if it's casual or in a relationship. It can be as simple as "I want to ask you something. [A quick warning beforehand is always good when a conflict can arise] That thing you said/did to me the other day. It felt a bit insulting/degrading/weird. What was that about?" The tonality should be like "I'm just wondering about this thing, could you clarify?".

I like this question because the guy hasn't been blamed for anything. She's just looking for clarification if what she felt was right or wrong. She trusts his intentions. I think this displays tact and communication skills. And like 99,99% of the time, it's just a misunderstanding.

Even if I can do this myself and have the girl being happy for me asking her so non-judgmentally, she may not be able to ask in the same manner herself. I think girls sometimes ask when they're riding the emotional wave. But other times it's like they're afraid of creating conflict. I had one ex tell me "I'd rather keep the small things to myself. I don't want to come across as a bitch!" Wow...

I don't know if it's just me who feels closer to a girl when we solve things this maturely. It's kind of hot when a woman can communicate this well, actually. [You can quote on me that!]

@Vision, I hope you can use this. Do you have a blog or something? I'm curious to see it.
 

Fuck This

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jul 24, 2015
Messages
1,699
1) Respect our time. It is a finite resource and we all have the same 24 hours in a day. Waste your own time all you want but don't waste mine...

2) Be enthusiastic. And Genuine.

I wrote this as my marriage was crumbling. Soon a woman came along that checked ALL the boxes.

How to be an attractive woman

3/4/2016



Smile. Because you feel like it.

Wink

Call me by a nickname. Babe, Darlin’ Hon, Sweetie. Doesn’t matter

Be Happy

Believe in yourself

Tell people you believe in them

Keep your promises

Eliminate the words “I don’t care” from your vocabulary

Know what you want and be clear about it

Go after what you want

Dance in the kitchen

Compliment people around you

Introduce yourself to people around you

Be nice to strangers

Hug people

Smile because people like to see it.

Tell corny jokes

Laugh at bad jokes

Tell dirty jokes

Don’t be afraid to get dirty

Don’t be afraid to get dressed up

Tell me you love me
 

Starboy

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
171
I would say for me personally what's frustrating is women not having empathy for men and what they have to go through in dating and in life. I see this especially with younger american women in their twenties.Women only think about themselves and don't ever look at things from a male perspective and think about the difficulties of dating as a man.

Men are expected to lead, be strong and confident and women don't realize or understand how difficult that can be. I don't expect women to change their preference in men it's what they want,but maybe help them understand that men experience negative emotions the same way as women do. They get nervous,anxious, uncomfortable, fearful and put a lot of pressure on themselves to impress women.

I've heard girls completely disregard men's feelings and say things like "stop being a pussy!" or "men don't have emotions". Almost as if they think because men have a penis that means they don't ever have any weaknesses or insecurities which is ridicuolous.

It would just be nice if women can be educated and informed on men's roles in dating so they can be more understanding and accepting instead of thinking them as harassers of women or spineless cowards who are too afraid to talk to them.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
I feel like most women lack the right language/vocabulary to express when something feels off. This has annoyed me for a long time because I'm a pretty simple dude. If something's wrong, then talk about it. And talk about it in a mature way.

How does the less mature way look?

In relationships, it's this wishy-washy thing where they express something that sounds like a big problem. Then you find out the REAL problem is something completely else. I think a lot can relate to this one. Just get to the point lol.

With girls you just hooked up with, they get weird if they felt degraded once you slept with them or they felt you didn't treat them right somewhere. Examples:
  • "You violated my consent!" - Yet, she never gave any indication that I was overstepping. (and this is another frustration: girl getting their boundaries crossed and not saying anything. Maybe they need a language for this as well in the heat, not during their post-coital reflections. Speak up! A guy's intention is not to make her feel bad about sleeping with him)
  • "My girl friends said you didn't treat me right!" - I persisted that we should meet at my place, but I gave her the option to skip for another time. She decided to come by anyway. She had her fair share of orgasms. But I'm not treating her bad because I don't want breakfast with her. And stop talking on behalf of your friends.
All these childish ways of saying this stuff is a huge turn off to me.

Personally, I love when a girl knows how to ask about something I did that seemed weird or off to her. It doesn't matter to me if it's casual or in a relationship. It can be as simple as "I want to ask you something. [A quick warning beforehand is always good when a conflict can arise] That thing you said/did to me the other day. It felt a bit insulting/degrading/weird. What was that about?" The tonality should be like "I'm just wondering about this thing, could you clarify?".

I like this question because the guy hasn't been blamed for anything. She's just looking for clarification if what she felt was right or wrong. She trusts his intentions. I think this displays tact and communication skills. And like 99,99% of the time, it's just a misunderstanding.

Even if I can do this myself and have the girl being happy for me asking her so non-judgmentally, she may not be able to ask in the same manner herself. I think girls sometimes ask when they're riding the emotional wave. But other times it's like they're afraid of creating conflict. I had one ex tell me "I'd rather keep the small things to myself. I don't want to come across as a bitch!" Wow...

I don't know if it's just me who feels closer to a girl when we solve things this maturely. It's kind of hot when a woman can communicate this well, actually. [You can quote on me that!]

@Vision, I hope you can use this. Do you have a blog or something? I'm curious to see it.

Better to look at my Facebook page and YT channel, that's where I post most of my stuff... my blog is mostly for SEO right now.


Also, if anyone is interested, I recently asked women on my FB page what their biggest challenge is in dating and here's what they answered...


The answers are all over the place.
 

Will_V

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
95
Something I wish women would do more of? Be practical about getting what you want in a relationship, it's not that hard to steer the average dude around.

First, learn to give a man the simple pleasures of having a girlfriend or wife, that's 99% of what he needs already. Learn to cook a good steak, give a proper shoulder massage, have a 'naughty girl' dress to put on when you want to catch his eye or sweeten a deal. Don't nag or whine habitually, show enthusiasm and interest in what he does and be his little helper when he's occupied.

Then learn to ask for what you want or need, by pouncing on him when he is weakest, with a full belly or empty balls (preferably both), and sweetly persisting about the thing that you want him to do or give or whatever. If a man loves his woman and his simple beastly needs are met, he'll agree to just about anything (probably even things he shouldn't).

Women are naturally more socially aware and capable than men, use it! Don't barge in and try to be a weak version of a man, or try to beat him over the head with your version of rationality, be a woman and use the natural tools at your disposal to get what you want. A woman who accepts this, and manages it properly, is an unstoppable force of nature who can effortlessly maneuver a man without ever arguing.
 

DarkKnight

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
826
@Vision "how to make him weak and crazy about you", seen on your facebook page ! What kind of traitor are you !

(I'm kidding)


I would honestly say, the single greatest mistake or challenge I see with women is their inability or unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions. Probably because of all those enabling guys, but this is a serious problem in my book.
 

MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
80
I’ve been thinking of writing a book titled, “Reasons I Wouldn’t Date Your Daughter” I wonder if now would be a good time to take up penmanship

I’d focus on these messages;

- Learn to listen for “No” When the word is thrown around it does have meaning.

- If you are ugly don’t expect me too approach.

- Good sex is a team effort
 

Regal Tiger

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
422
1:
There are some great posts on here, but one thing that I think baffles a lot of women is the mating/dating pyramid.

You got hot/high-status guys at the top
Then you got hot women
Then you got all the other women
Then you have most guys

Sure, it's one of those things that are watered down and isn't exactly 'the truth'. But it's a good stepping stone to explaining to women why their question of "why do men have it so easy" is wrong. Men and women have different challenges.

It's not that men have it easy. Hot guys have it easy which is all that women focus on (and to be fair, anyone who is even slightly mentally stable won't go around talking about their daily challenges, everyone's too busy trying to put their best foot forward), which is a very natural human tendency that people in general have. We just notice what others have that we don't whereas we don't notice everyone 'below' us. Which is where a lot of normal guys are in relation to women, especially in today's society where anything masculine is under attack.

A lot of women are shocked when I talk about how [western] society rages at anything even slightly masculine.


2:
Something that your clientele won't need, but be self-improvement oriented. It's up to men to lead in most cases and the easier a woman makes it for a man to lead her the more clear things will be to him. Because I've spent quite a chunk of change and time learning this stuff and I still miss shit all the time!

3:
Learn about what kind of man they want and become the woman of that man's dreams. Or at the very least, learn a few things that a man like that has to deal with on a daily basis or loves.

Example: if a woman wants a stock broker then learn enough about stocks to ask intelligent questions. She doesn't have to be an expert, but she just has to know enough to ask good questions. The man will fall in love extremely quickly and think himself lucky to have finally found a woman who he can talk to about stuff he loves.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
@Vision "how to make him weak and crazy about you", seen on your facebook page ! What kind of traitor are you !

(I'm kidding)

I have a YouTube video with that title that has over 900k views on it so it's definitely a topic they want to know about!

I would honestly say, the single greatest mistake or challenge I see with women is their inability or unwillingness to take responsibility for their actions. Probably because of all those enabling guys, but this is a serious problem in my book.

Do you have any concrete examples from your life that you could share with me about this? It would help me in the communication of it.
 

Vision

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
15
1:
There are some great posts on here, but one thing that I think baffles a lot of women is the mating/dating pyramid.

You got hot/high-status guys at the top
Then you got hot women
Then you got all the other women
Then you have most guys

Sure, it's one of those things that are watered down and isn't exactly 'the truth'. But it's a good stepping stone to explaining to women why their question of "why do men have it so easy" is wrong. Men and women have different challenges.

Yeah, I've talked about this idea before... a lot of women think guys have it super easy and they're all getting laid with tons of women because of the hookup culture and every dude is a player and whatever. I brought up some of the statistics about 28% of men being celibate right now and whatnot and I think it's really help with a lot of women's perspectives.

But what they also want and what they're probably used to going after is a guy with high value... just like with most guys do with women.

If I were to rewrite that pyramid, my guess is that it's more like a multi-layered oreo sandwhich... men, women, men, women, men, women, men, women, men... with a variety of different reasons why some have it hard and some have it easier.

Also, it depends on what you're trying to get here... are we just talking about getting laid or are we talking about getting into a committed relationship? Because those things are completely different.

We have women in our community who literally can't get to a date with a guy from a dating app or online. Many of them probably could if they were just looking for a hookup... but a huge number of guys these days go straight to dirty talk on the dating app and if a woman is looking for a relationship, she probably shouldn't go out with a guy sending her dick pics and talking about how he's going to bang her when they haven't even met yet.

So the struggle is real on both sides but I definitely see your point and I would like to talk more about this because it's an important perspective to have. And I think what's even more important is how to bridge the gap for both men and women so that it's not so difficult for everyone anymore.

It's not that men have it easy. Hot guys have it easy which is all that women focus on (and to be fair, anyone who is even slightly mentally stable won't go around talking about their daily challenges, everyone's too busy trying to put their best foot forward), which is a very natural human tendency that people in general have. We just notice what others have that we don't whereas we don't notice everyone 'below' us. Which is where a lot of normal guys are in relation to women, especially in today's society where anything masculine is under attack.

A lot of women are shocked when I talk about how [western] society rages at anything even slightly masculine.

I talk about this a bit in some of my videos...


Some women are definitely aware. Many people, men and women, don't know what masculine/feminine is and there's activist dating advice (usually lead by feminists) that push women to be more masculine and you can see that in some of the Northern European countries a lot like Norway and Finland.

Women are being pushed to be masculine and men are being pushed to be feminine and it's really fucking everything up.

2:
Something that your clientele won't need, but be self-improvement oriented. It's up to men to lead in most cases and the easier a woman makes it for a man to lead her the more clear things will be to him. Because I've spent quite a chunk of change and time learning this stuff and I still miss shit all the time!

Yeah, I agree. That's very important and I talk about that a lot. I think a lot of women just want "what to say to make him fall in love" just like a lot of guys do without doing the real personal growth work but I agree that it's very important.

3:
Learn about what kind of man they want and become the woman of that man's dreams. Or at the very least, learn a few things that a man like that has to deal with on a daily basis or loves.

Example: if a woman wants a stock broker then learn enough about stocks to ask intelligent questions. She doesn't have to be an expert, but she just has to know enough to ask good questions. The man will fall in love extremely quickly and think himself lucky to have finally found a woman who he can talk to about stuff he loves.

That's an interesting idea. Thanks for that.
 

Regal Tiger

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
422
Yeah, I've talked about this idea before... a lot of women think guys have it super easy and they're all getting laid with tons of women because of the hookup culture and every dude is a player and whatever. I brought up some of the statistics about 28% of men being celibate right now and whatnot and I think it's really help with a lot of women's perspectives.

But what they also want and what they're probably used to going after is a guy with high value... just like with most guys do with women.

Couldn't agree more! I've never looked at the exact stats so I'll have to take your word for it on that point, but just reading it, it sounds about right to me from a general idea of it.
If I were to rewrite that pyramid, my guess is that it's more like a multi-layered oreo sandwhich... men, women, men, women, men, women, men, women, men... with a variety of different reasons why some have it hard and some have it easier.

Also agree that the general pyramid that's used isn't 100% accurate (or probably even 80%). But I find it to be a good jumping off point to explain to women a different perspective. And the pyramid, in my opinion, gives a good mental image of what I'm trying to explain and build off of.
Also, it depends on what you're trying to get here... are we just talking about getting laid or are we talking about getting into a committed relationship? Because those things are completely different.

Oh for sure! As far as getting laid goes women 100% have it easy, but unfortunately for them not just any ole dick will do. And the same is true of men to a much lesser extent. I doubt too many guys here would settle for someone too... shall we say... outside of the overall consensus of beautiful. Lol
We have women in our community who literally can't get to a date with a guy from a dating app or online.

Yeah... it's horrible for women on dating apps but that's a HUGE reason why guys who have half a brain cell have it so easy on the apps. In my humble opinion, women should not be on dating apps.

As a man with a functioning penis I wholeheartedly want MORE women on the dating apps and LOOOOOOOOVE the fact that there are so many idiots on them. It's what got me started in my dating adventures and without them I wouldn't be where I am now. Some of it for better some of it for worse lol.

But yeah... guys don't usually put in any effort in regards to online dating. That goes double or even triple for the better looking guys on there because they have it so much easier. They can basically afford to just message 10 random women a night "hey babe let's fuck" and probably at least one of them will take the guy up on the offer if he's good looking enough.
Many of them probably could if they were just looking for a hookup... but a huge number of guys these days go straight to dirty talk on the dating app and if a woman is looking for a relationship, she probably shouldn't go out with a guy sending her dick pics and talking about how he's going to bang her when they haven't even met yet.

Absolutely. I've always described it as getting lost in the sea of penises when it comes to online dating.

Sometimes guys will lose out on women not because they didn't have a shot or the woman wasn't interested but simply because she's getting swamped by guys and sometimes you get lost in the messages.
So the struggle is real on both sides but I definitely see your point and I would like to talk more about this because it's an important perspective to have. And I think what's even more important is how to bridge the gap for both men and women so that it's not so difficult for everyone anymore.

Absolutely agree yet again on both points.

One guy I've heard explained easing the burden on women like this:
1) Learn how to lower your shields so that more guys see you as approachable (because it's only the overbearing dickwaffles that will approach them otherwise, not counting the self-improvement oriented man who you're likely to find in a place like this)
2) Learn how to assert your boundaries (and sadly, if needed which probably is needed sometimes which a lot of women are afraid of) so that when it's time to bounce it's time to bounce. But to do so in a gentle, yet firm way
3) This wasn't part of what he said but something that I personally believe: everybody should learn the basics of self-defense

In addition, not sure if you wanna use this or not but one of the catchy little phrases he used was something like this:

Women are afraid of men overstaying their welcome and not being able to escape. Men are afraid of being creepy.

Overall I agreed with it.
Some women are definitely aware. Many people, men and women, don't know what masculine/feminine is and there's activist dating advice (usually lead by feminists) that push women to be more masculine and you can see that in some of the Northern European countries a lot like Norway and Finland.

Yup yup, again agree. Though I didn't know about it also being in Norway/Finland as I'm in America and sadly haven't gotten outside of this country yet.
Women are being pushed to be masculine and men are being pushed to be feminine and it's really fucking everything up.

Yup... and it's sad but true.
Yeah, I agree. That's very important and I talk about that a lot. I think a lot of women just want "what to say to make him fall in love" just like a lot of guys do without doing the real personal growth work but I agree that it's very important.

Yeah... it's kind of human nature really. We want to take the shortest path to greatness. If there's a shortcut then we want it because that's how the brain works. To conserve energy whenever and wherever possible.
That's an interesting idea. Thanks for that.

You're welcome! I'm glad to be able to talk about this too I'm grateful as well! I think it's cool what you're doing and wish you the best :)
 
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DarkKnight

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Oct 18, 2018
Messages
826
@Vision

Okay one concrete example I have to give with a couple of caveats. There was this chick who I really liked. A true one itis. This was quite some years ago so my game was weaker than it is now. Never the less my attraction game was solid and I was gaming this girl at the restaurant where she worked... and she seemed to be quite into me but we were always interrupted by others. I had texted her online: she had ignored this... when I persisted and tried to get her live she threw me under the bus and me and some orbitors of her actually butted heads. Friends of mine had to step in. At that point I decided she is probably not that into me despite the signs and her nervous behavior. A week later I was dating another girl..

The restaurant girl was unaware of my non-single status and tried to get back into orbit quite desperately which I shrugged off. Later on she finally learned that I was in a relationship and her entire world crashed. She stopped working there and each time I saw her outside you could see the shock and anguish. She actually blamed me after sabotaging the entire courtship.

I think this was a pretty concrete example lol
 

Will_V

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
95
Yeah, I've talked about this idea before... a lot of women think guys have it super easy and they're all getting laid with tons of women because of the hookup culture and every dude is a player and whatever. I brought up some of the statistics about 28% of men being celibate right now and whatnot and I think it's really help with a lot of women's perspectives.

But what they also want and what they're probably used to going after is a guy with high value... just like with most guys do with women.

If I were to rewrite that pyramid, my guess is that it's more like a multi-layered oreo sandwhich... men, women, men, women, men, women, men, women, men... with a variety of different reasons why some have it hard and some have it easier.

Also, it depends on what you're trying to get here... are we just talking about getting laid or are we talking about getting into a committed relationship? Because those things are completely different.

We have women in our community who literally can't get to a date with a guy from a dating app or online. Many of them probably could if they were just looking for a hookup... but a huge number of guys these days go straight to dirty talk on the dating app and if a woman is looking for a relationship, she probably shouldn't go out with a guy sending her dick pics and talking about how he's going to bang her when they haven't even met yet.

So the struggle is real on both sides but I definitely see your point and I would like to talk more about this because it's an important perspective to have. And I think what's even more important is how to bridge the gap for both men and women so that it's not so difficult for everyone anymore.



I talk about this a bit in some of my videos...


Some women are definitely aware. Many people, men and women, don't know what masculine/feminine is and there's activist dating advice (usually lead by feminists) that push women to be more masculine and you can see that in some of the Northern European countries a lot like Norway and Finland.

Women are being pushed to be masculine and men are being pushed to be feminine and it's really fucking everything up.



Yeah, I agree. That's very important and I talk about that a lot. I think a lot of women just want "what to say to make him fall in love" just like a lot of guys do without doing the real personal growth work but I agree that it's very important.



That's an interesting idea. Thanks for that.

If you would, I'd be curious to know, from a guy with your experience with women's dating lives and psychology, what would you consider/teach to be the napkin-level fundamentals of successful women's 'game' with men (besides looking good, of course)? Like if a fairly smart, attractive, and sociable girl wanted a guy just a tad out of her league, for anything more than a hookup.

I think some of the things that a woman could do to successfully reel in a man might actually correlate a lot to what men are frustrated about not getting from women.
..
Personally I don't think it's useful so much to compare gender pain points (like the percentage of celibate guys vs the percentage of girls who can't get relationships or something like that) because frankly I don't think it helps anyone get better. Many of the MGTOW type guys on youtube are obsessed with these type of statistics and wallow in it ad nauseum, and the most it seems to do is to produce a strange mix of victimhood and reactive distrust.

I believe that the healthiest outlook is every man and woman aiming for the top of their respective spheres, accepting that the world is inherently competitive and that people are self-centered and that's fine, and being satisfied with wherever they land after they have worked on themselves as far as they are capable or willing - which for anyone is way higher than they would achieve by accident.

Do I care if women don't know about the 80-20 rule in their sexual selection? Nope. Does she want to think about it? Probably not. Would it help either of us to dwell on it? I doubt it.

All I really want women to do to increase their appeal (sexually and as a companion) to their ideal men, while I focus on my appeal to my ideal woman.

The only real disappointment I've felt for a woman is when she does something that she was taught 'real women do' and it fails with me, and she's hurt or confused by it. That could have been fixed. But her dwelling on my frustrations with the female nature? Not useful, I think.
 
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