What Seduction Is Really About [PART 1]

[PaulieFlyn10]

I've finally got around to create this thread. It's a very long one so brace yourself.

Most guys in the community both here and red pill as a whole have fallen in love with "attraction is king" mantra

It's easy to sell and market. Just say this or do this and watch her how she reacts to you. The problem is, reactions aren't results. So when guys see these reactions, they think things are heading somewhere.

@Warped Mindless did a good job here about how there's a good enough distance between a woman's attraction for you and her getting aroused to fuck you.

That distance is seduction. Or what is called game.

So, if seduction is the distance from attraction to sex/arousal/lust.... what is seduction? The goal of this thread is to open a real discussion on it.

DEFINING SEDUCTION/GAME

I was reading thread and I came across a definition by @topcat about what seduction is. And I love it.

So here it is, paraphrased: Game is compliance. Getting it, testing for it, rewarding it and addressing the lack of it.

When you pick that definition and go deep, things start to make more sense.

Compliance is basically how much a woman is willing to follow your lead or comply with what you say or do.

Of course, the goal is sex. So you should be getting, testing, rewarding and addressing compliance in ways that lead to sex.

Now, let's pick each part of that definition one by one.


● Getting compliance

You get compliance from a woman when you get a woman to reach a specific threshold for a specific action.

For example in day game, within the initial 5 mins of an interaction , you can get a woman to give you a hi five. This is compliance. Because you have done things to raise her compliance threshold to that point. However, if you went for a bigger compliance like say a French kiss... you probably would be met with massive resistance or even rejection.

So, in other words... getting compliance = raising her compliance threshold.

But how? What do you have to do to raise her compliance threshold up to the point your dick inside her.

In my experience, there are 4 big needle movers that raises her compliance threshold and gets you compliance.

I call them big needle movers because if you threw them out of your game stack, you will have a drastic drop in results.

What are they?

1) >> Emotional stimulation. How well you stimulate a woman emotionally will play a significant role in raising her compliance threshold.

Things like:

emotionally charged stories,
Nlp communication styles (Riker, Speed seduction)
tension,
humor,
Mystery,
seduction oriented topics like connection and chemistry,
your passions and hers all help to influence her emotions in a direction that's favourable to you.

Generally, You want emotions that are fun, engaging, relatable,


2)>> Comfort/Trust. One of the best naturals I've ever met told me something that has stuck with me: "Girls are creatures of trust"

The more you can get a woman to feel comfortable and trust you, the easier it is for her to comply. This part is not talked about enough In the community.

My day game results improved greatly when I made a conscious effort to make girls more comfortable.

How can you do this?

-Being relaxed & comfortable yourself
-deep diving
-similarities you both have
- how well you fit into her type (think fashion, looks, archetype seduction)
-emotional stimulation like we talked previously
-Sharing a bit about yourself in a passionate & genuine way
-qualifying her
-being non judgemental
- displaying discretion


Comfort can be both social or sexual. For a deeper stuff on sexual comfort, read @Teevster stuff


3)>> Frame Handling

Frame handling is one of the most important things a seducer should have

I won't go into details because @Chase and @Teevster have discussed this topic to the point you should be great at it.


But as a guide you want to set frames that are favourable for arousal. Things like

••• Reframes... sometimes girls will set a frame that is unfavourable to seduction. Things like "I don't usually do this" "I'm not that kind of girl" are generally bad for seduction. And there are frames you do not want to accept

Your ability to reframe unfavourable frames like these in your preferred direction (one that leads to sex) will be crucial


••• sexual frames. Sinn a guy I studied very well and who had a huge effect on my game has about 16 sexual frames to frame girls with it. My favourites are:

- Framing a girl as adventurous
- Framing a girl as naughty
- Setting a frame that things won't get weird after sex. This is such a big one because a common complaint I've had about guys from girls is how guys start acting "weird" after sex
-Framing her as open minded and nom judgemental.

You can also find more of this on the forum

•••Chase Frames

This is basically you framing the girl as the one chasing you either romantically or sexually or both.

Just do a quick search

•••Prizing Frames

Basically framing yourself as the prize especially sexually. But this could include framing yourself as higher value or a man women want

4)>> Calibration.

Calibration is the key to going from quantity to quality. And going from fucking one or a couple archetype/spec of girls to fucking a variety. It's also the key to more consistent results.

There are 2 primary ways of calibration the girl, the situation the dynamic

•••The girl.

As you probably know, while girls are similar... they are different. Your ability to calibrate to how a girl responds to everything you've done above is crucial

Some frames might not land well with some girls. While some girls will eat it up

A mistake many guys make is to act frustrated or disappointed when a particular technique that works fails them. Sometimes, switching to something different can help guide you.

Knowing a girls archetype is one way to boost your calibration. @fog has posts and comments on the forum and his journal on this.

Calibration imo, is the biggest difference between an intermediate and an advanced seducer. That's why using archetypes as a way of seducing girls is so important

Because you will "match her" on a social and seductive level. Which is almost close to magic hehehehe. You've probably noticed that there are certain personality types of girls you click really well with... imagine you had a deeper understanding of archetypes of different kind of girls to the point you can have similar levels of connection/chemistry.

That's to show you just how big a factor calibration is to your results

••• The situation.

This is pretty straightforward. Stay long enough in the game and you'll realize while some patterns and seduction are similar, you are bound to encounter scenarios that you're not familiar with

Your ability to think on your feet and pick the most favourable choice from a situation will also help you


••• The dynamic or balance

I was wondering what to call this part but we'll go with that.

Like I said, calibration is the biggest difference between intermediate seduction and an advanced one.

Most guys first join the community after being years in the friendzone. They can get girls comfortable but they're lacking a sexual edge. Soon they get their sexual game on point and start getting more and faster lays.

Then they hit a player's plateau. Where girls put up much resistance due to having a player reputation and the girl feels he just wants sex. Right now, they've gone so far to one end that girls start questing their intentions.

In essence, they've lost the balance in their game

Generally, there are four key balances or dynamics that help your calibration


~~ provider vs lover

The general idea is to be a lover not a provider. You don't need to be in the game too long to realize that going full out "lover" mode will screen out some girls. For more of this, you want to create a balance like @Skills talked about here


~~sexual vs genuine/comfort/warm

This is what I described earlier where a guy is soo sexual focused he forgets to actually connect and be genuine with a girl

In essence he completely neglects the emotional side of things and just hammers on arousal. This makes some girls sense an agenda. It's one of the biggest reasons with poor date pull conversions and to an extent closing conversions

~~ submission vs pleasure

Read this comment by @Will_V

~~ Similarity vs arousal.

Read this by Chase

~~ Value Vs attainability

DHV can be a good thing. Girls see your value and are attracted and sometimes aroused by you. However, your value can be too much where it seems like you're 50,00o feet above her.

This way you feel unreachable. Almost like she can't get you. This article by Chase explains everything

● Rewarding Compliance

As you get better in doing everything above, girls will give you more and more compliance

Sex in itself is one huge compliance. That is why when you reward her with good sex and orgasms she tends to comply more.

But before you reward for sex as compliance, there are other mini and macro compliance on the way before that.

So what compliance should you be rewarding? Basically when you get compliance... you reward her

This trains her to comply more.

Things like:

-asking her to move or sit with you
-when she opens up about intimate or sexual things


●Addressing lack of compliance

Yes, sometimes when you test compliance, you will be met with resistant

Meaning she hasn't reached that compliance threshold. Which means she isn't compliant.

Most times there's a reason why she's not giving you compliance... sometimes it's an objection which you have to address... other times it's a test or obstacle she puts in front of you just to see how relaxed you are and how you overcome it.


CONCLUSION

In summary,

distance from attraction to arousal/sex/lust = Seduction/Game

Seduction/game = Compliance. Getting it, rewarding it and addressing the lack of it

This is more important for you to focus on.

Btw it's important while reading the blogs, you don't click on too many links.

Just use this as a guide for your skills and mindset

Damn this was so long.

Anyways, feel free to share your thoughts/ideas etc.

Thanks for reading

 

[topcat]

this is brilliant

 

[topcat]

Great write up man.

To compliment your post I'll add:

Every compliance ask exists to prime her for the following ask

She needs to be ready for an ask BEFORE you ask. It needs to be a no brainer for her to comply with it, so much so that she'd be crazy not to..

eg.

Paulie wants to ask his date to sit closer

If we were to sketch the ideal internal state his date should have, it should look something like this:

"I'm enjoying Paulie's touch, and his voice sounds so good..but I wish I could hear him better, and he's so interesting, the things he talks about WOW ..and he smells great, when I hugged him earlier MMM.."

When you ask her to sit closer to you in that state, do you think she'll say no?

How did Paulie prime her?

-- with incidental touch to punctuate his conversation
-- sensory stimulation with his scent that she caught a whiff of when he hugged her upon meeting her
-- creating comfort by giving her just enough space initially upon sitting down/not boxing her into the booth or bench
-- by speaking in a titillating vocal tone that though attractive, is almost too low to hear clearly at a distance
-- with interesting and similarity producing conversation

REMEMBER compliance asks exist to prime her for the next compliance ask
ASK WITH THE END IN MIND

 

[Warped Mindless]

This is an excellent post!

Regarding compliance during the day, the biggest way I do it is by first doing some rapid emotional spikes right after I open and hook.

This amps up her emotions (emotional arousal).

Then I go into emotional deep vibing. The longer I give with her the more personal and intense I make the questions.

If I ask a question and she gives me a weak shot answer that isn’t compliance and she’s not investing in me. So I stay at that level, pace and lead her and even fractionate back out to more rapid emotional spikes and then try again.

If he gives me a deeper more detailed answer that’s investment and complained, I’ll qualify with her, and connect with her on it.

I’ll also escalate the vibe and then continues emotional vibing/deep diving by asking her questions that are now one level more deport and personal and repeat.

Throughout at the right times I throw in rapid compliance stacks as well as I feel they are needed. This is just chaining small compliance request (two or three typically) together and these are always related to the level of emotional vibing we are on.

I say all this to remind people that asking her personal things and having her open up is a form of compliance if she is giving you deep enough answers.

 

[TwoNameGame]

Great post. Thanks for giving us something to hang our hats on.

So, sometimes I demand compliance by giving a look of "well?" when I asked her a question and just waiting for her to answer. It almost always works. Is that conducive to game?

 

[WierdDough]

Great post! There´s a lot of great pointers in here. Most important aspects of game are also present, which gives a solid overview. Now, would I agree on your definition that seduction is mostly compliance? Probably not. I also don´t agree with the notion that sex is the main objective. It´s more like one of many different expressions of a solid seduction. Overall I´m not disagreeing with you at all, it´s a fantastic post, and I´m wiser for reading it.

Also, would you care to elaborate on how you deal with objections, as you mentioned in the end of your post?

Best regards, WD

 

[POB]

Great write up @PaulieFlyn10 , concise and straight to the point.
I know it's a lot of work, but if you have the patience to edit you OP and add some links, it could be worthy of a stick at the top section.

 

[Lantern]

Great post! I did notice one small piece missing, which when I learned about it ment a lot for my game, and that's attainability. I guess it would fit in your "dynamic balances" somewhere, mabye as value vs. attainability

 

[Will_V]

I've finally got around to create this thread. It's a very long one so brace yourself.

Most guys in the community both here and red pill as a whole have fallen in love with "attraction is king" mantra

It's easy to sell and market. Just say this or do this and watch her how she reacts to you. The problem is, reactions aren't results. So when guys see these reactions, they think things are heading somewhere.

@Warped Mindless did a good job here about how there's a good enough distance between a woman's attraction for you and her getting aroused to fuck you.

That distance is seduction. Or what is called game.

So, if seduction is the distance from attraction to sex/arousal/lust.... what is seduction? The goal of this thread is to open a real discussion on it.

DEFINING SEDUCTION/GAME

I was reading thread and I came across a definition by @topcat about what seduction is. And I love it.

So here it is, paraphrased: Game is compliance. Getting it, testing for it, rewarding it and addressing the lack of it.

When you pick that definition and go deep, things start to make more sense.

Compliance is basically how much a woman is willing to follow your lead or comply with what you say or do.

Of course, the goal is sex. So you should be getting, testing, rewarding and addressing compliance in ways that lead to sex.

Now, let's pick each part of that definition one by one.


● Getting compliance

You get compliance from a woman when you get a woman to reach a specific threshold for a specific action.

For example in day game, within the initial 5 mins of an interaction , you can get a woman to give you a hi five. This is compliance. Because you have done things to raise her compliance threshold to that point. However, if you went for a bigger compliance like say a French kiss... you probably would be met with massive resistance or even rejection.

So, in other words... getting compliance = raising her compliance threshold.

But how? What do you have to do to raise her compliance threshold up to the point your dick inside her.

In my experience, there are 4 big needle movers that raises her compliance threshold and gets you compliance.

I call them big needle movers because if you threw them out of your game stack, you will have a drastic drop in results.

What are they?

1) >> Emotional stimulation. How well you stimulate a woman emotionally will play a significant role in raising her compliance threshold.

Things like:

emotionally charged stories,
Nlp communication styles (Riker, Speed seduction)
tension,
humor,
Mystery,
seduction oriented topics like connection and chemistry,
your passions and hers all help to influence her emotions in a direction that's favourable to you.

Generally, You want emotions that are fun, engaging, relatable,


2)>> Comfort/Trust. One of the best naturals I've ever met told me something that has stuck with me: "Girls are creatures of trust"

The more you can get a woman to feel comfortable and trust you, the easier it is for her to comply. This part is not talked about enough In the community.

My day game results improved greatly when I made a conscious effort to make girls more comfortable.

How can you do this?

-Being relaxed & comfortable yourself
-deep diving
-similarities you both have
- how well you fit into her type (think fashion, looks, archetype seduction)
-emotional stimulation like we talked previously
-Sharing a bit about yourself in a passionate & genuine way
-qualifying her
-being non judgemental
- displaying discretion


Comfort can be both social or sexual. For a deeper stuff on sexual comfort, read @Teevster stuff


3)>> Frame Handling

Frame handling is one of the most important things a seducer should have

I won't go into details because @Chase and @Teevster have discussed this topic to the point you should be great at it.


But as a guide you want to set frames that are favourable for arousal. Things like

••• Reframes... sometimes girls will set a frame that is unfavourable to seduction. Things like "I don't usually do this" "I'm not that kind of girl" are generally bad for seduction. And there are frames you do not want to accept

Your ability to reframe unfavourable frames like these in your preferred direction (one that leads to sex) will be crucial


••• sexual frames. Sinn a guy I studied very well and who had a huge effect on my game has about 16 sexual frames to frame girls with it. My favourites are:

- Framing a girl as adventurous
- Framing a girl as naughty
- Setting a frame that things won't get weird after sex. This is such a big one because a common complaint I've had about guys from girls is how guys start acting "weird" after sex
-Framing her as open minded and nom judgemental.

You can also find more of this on the forum

•••Chase Frames

This is basically you framing the girl as the one chasing you either romantically or sexually or both.

Just do a quick search

•••Prizing Frames

Basically framing yourself as the prize especially sexually. But this could include framing yourself as higher value or a man women want

4)>> Calibration.

Calibration is the key to going from quantity to quality. And going from fucking one or a couple archetype/spec of girls to fucking a variety. It's also the key to more consistent results.

There are 2 primary ways of calibration the girl, the situation the dynamic

•••The girl.

As you probably know, while girls are similar... they are different. Your ability to calibrate to how a girl responds to everything you've done above is crucial

Some frames might not land well with some girls. While some girls will eat it up

A mistake many guys make is to act frustrated or disappointed when a particular technique that works fails them. Sometimes, switching to something different can help guide you.

Knowing a girls archetype is one way to boost your calibration. @fog has posts and comments on the forum and his journal on this.

Calibration imo, is the biggest difference between an intermediate and an advanced seducer. That's why using archetypes as a way of seducing girls is so important

Because you will "match her" on a social and seductive level. Which is almost close to magic hehehehe. You've probably noticed that there are certain personality types of girls you click really well with... imagine you had a deeper understanding of archetypes of different kind of girls to the point you can have similar levels of connection/chemistry.

That's to show you just how big a factor calibration is to your results

••• The situation.

This is pretty straightforward. Stay long enough in the game and you'll realize while some patterns and seduction are similar, you are bound to encounter scenarios that you're not familiar with

Your ability to think on your feet and pick the most favourable choice from a situation will also help you


••• The dynamic or balance

I was wondering what to call this part but we'll go with that.

Like I said, calibration is the biggest difference between intermediate seduction and an advanced one.

Most guys first join the community after being years in the friendzone. They can get girls comfortable but they're lacking a sexual edge. Soon they get their sexual game on point and start getting more and faster lays.

Then they hit a player's plateau. Where girls put up much resistance due to having a player reputation and the girl feels he just wants sex. Right now, they've gone so far to one end that girls start questing their intentions.

In essence, they've lost the balance in their game

Generally, there are four key balances or dynamics that help your calibration


~~ provider vs lover

The general idea is to be a lover not a provider. You don't need to be in the game too long to realize that going full out "lover" mode will screen out some girls. For more of this, you want to create a balance like @Skills talked about here


~~sexual vs genuine/comfort/warm

This is what I described earlier where a guy is soo sexual focused he forgets to actually connect and be genuine with a girl

In essence he completely neglects the emotional side of things and just hammers on arousal. This makes some girls sense an agenda. It's one of the biggest reasons with poor date pull conversions and to an extent closing conversions

~~ submission vs pleasure

Read this comment by @Will_V

~~ Similarity vs arousal.

Read this by Chase

● Rewarding Compliance

As you get better in doing everything above, girls will give you more and more compliance

Sex in itself is one huge compliance. That is why when you reward her with good sex and orgasms she tends to comply more.

But before you reward for sex as compliance, there are other mini and macro compliance on the way before that.

So what compliance should you be rewarding? Basically when you get compliance... you reward her

This trains her to comply more.

Things like:

-asking her to move or sit with you
-when she opens up about intimate or sexual things


●Addressing lack of compliance

Yes, sometimes when you test compliance, you will be met with resistant

Meaning she hasn't reached that compliance threshold. Which means she isn't compliant.

Most times there's a reason why she's not giving you compliance... sometimes it's an objection which you have to address... other times it's a test or obstacle she puts in front of you just to see how relaxed you are and how you overcome it.


CONCLUSION

In summary,

distance from attraction to arousal/sex/lust = Seduction/Game

Seduction/game = Compliance. Getting it, rewarding it and addressing the lack of it

This is more important for you to focus on.

Btw it's important while reading the blogs, you don't click on too many links.

Just use this as a guide for your skills and mindset

Damn this was so long.

Anyways, feel free to share your thoughts/ideas etc.

Thanks for reading

Great post that covers a lot of useful elements of seduction.

Even though I don't particularly like the term 'compliance', it does describe what seduction effectively is, in logical terms.

The only caveat I'd put there is that there is such a thing as too much compliance that backfires later on. The analogy I often use here is taking off in a plane - if you haul back hard on the stick while you're rolling down the runway, the plane will usually 'comply' by getting off the ground, but whether you stay up there or come crashing back down depends on the amount of lift the plane is experiencing - i.e. the things you've done to build up that level of compliance in the first place. It's possible to push too hard for compliance and pressure her to agree to something that later turns into a lot of resistance or inhibition. So I think of seduction more as an energy equation than a pursuit of compliance per se.

Then of course there is the question of what seduction means to you - if you want it to be an efficient path to the bedroom or whether you want to enjoy yourself creating certain experiences with her along the way. This is very subjective of course, you could describe it as the quest to realize your personal art of seduction. For example, I see seduction as the creation of a bubble in which she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't normally get to live out, and what is most erotic for me is seeing her immersed in that. All my favorite sexual experiences have been with girls who started off with a shell, and emerged out of it with me. And probably only 50% of what I enjoy about that actually involves the act of sex.

 

[James Cruse]

@Warped Mindless did a good job here about how there's a good enough distance between a woman's attraction for you and her getting aroused to fuck you.

That distance is seduction. Or what is called game.

So, if seduction is the distance from attraction to sex/arousal/lust.... what is seduction? The goal of this thread is to open a real discussion on it.

“Distance” you say? You mean like what’s written about The Distance Between Attraction > Sex in this thread I wrote and wrote about earlier in the discord?

So here it is, paraphrased: Game is compliance. Getting it, testing for it, rewarding it and addressing the lack of it.

So this iswhat you read from Saul Tee in his book.

Knowing a girls archetype is one way to boost your calibration. @fog has posts and comments on the forum and his journal on this.

You use archetypes in seduction?
Could you post a Field Report of you using Archetypes and you specifically ‘moving the needle’ for compliance in your seductions?

Most times there's a reason why she's not giving you compliance... sometimes it's an objection which you have to address... other times it's a test or obstacle she puts in front of you just to see how relaxed you are and how you overcome it.

How do you personally address the objections if she’s uncompliant to overcome it, as written here?
Is there a field report of you doing this?

In essence he completely neglects the emotional side of things and just hammers on arousal. This makes some girls sense an agenda. It's one of the biggest reasons with poor date pull conversions and to an extent closing conversions

This is what Ross Jeffries tends to do in his recent seduction Field Reports - focuses too much on Arousal over more important aspects of the seduction. This is part of the reason that Ross’s Speed seduction method he uses works so poorly.

I recently wrote a post about this in the discord that you saw and commented - good that you brought it here Paulie.

So what compliance should you be rewarding? Basically when you get compliance... you reward her

What are some other ways that you typically reward compliance?
Do you have many of these examples in a Field Report?

distance from attraction to arousal/sex/lust = Seduction/Game

Thanks for referencing my post again from here and the discord. Very generous of you.

Regarding compliance during the day, the biggest way I do it is by first doing some rapid emotional spikes right after I open and hook.

What ‘rapid emotional spikes’ do you use? Could you give some examples? Did you use these in any of your Field Reports?

Then I go into emotional deep vibing. The longer I give with her the more personal and intense I make the questions.

If I ask a question and she gives me a weak shot answer that isn’t compliance and she’s not investing in me. So I stay at that level, pace and lead her and even fractionate back out to more rapid emotional spikes and then try again.

Nice, Saul Tee devotes a long chapter in his book (Ch.5) to Emotional deep diving mixed with compliance.
Good to see you describing that technique here.
Have you got any examples of how you’ve used this in Field Reports - which ones?

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Great write up man.

To compliment your post I'll add:

Every compliance ask exists to prime her for the following ask

She needs to be ready for an ask BEFORE you ask. It needs to be a no brainer for her to comply with it, so much so that she'd be crazy not to..

eg.

Paulie wants to ask his date to sit closer

If we were to sketch the ideal internal state his date should have, it should look something like this:

"I'm enjoying Paulie's touch, and his voice sounds so good..but I wish I could hear him better, and he's so interesting, the things he talks about WOW ..and he smells great, when I hugged him earlier MMM.."

When you ask her to sit closer to you in that state, do you think she'll say no?

How did Paulie prime her?

-- with incidental touch to punctuate his conversation
-- sensory stimulation with his scent that she caught a whiff of when he hugged her upon meeting her
-- creating comfort by giving her just enough space initially upon sitting down/not boxing her into the booth or bench
-- by speaking in a titillating vocal tone that though attractive, is almost too low to hear clearly at a distance
-- with interesting and similarity producing conversation

REMEMBER compliance asks exist to prime her for the next compliance ask
ASK WITH THE END IN MIND

Nice addition. I'm planning to edit and add a section on mindsets to have while going through and practicing techniques.

This will fit in nicely. The idea that you want compliance to be primed. That way, she's more likely to respond


Thanks for your input

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Great write up @PaulieFlyn10 , concise and straight to the point.
I know it's a lot of work, but if you have the patience to edit you OP and add some links, it could be worthy of a stick at the top section.

Thanks a lot. I've edited the links. Let me know if there's anything missing

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Great post! I did notice one small piece missing, which when I learned about it ment a lot for my game, and that's attainability. I guess it would fit in your "dynamic balances" somewhere, mabye as value vs. attainability

Thanks so much for this. I can't believe i forgot this because attainability was something that really improved my game.

I've edited the OP and added it

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Great post that covers a lot of useful elements of seduction.

Even though I don't particularly like the term 'compliance', it does describe what seduction effectively is, in logical terms.

The only caveat I'd put there is that there is such a thing as too much compliance that backfires later on. The analogy I often use here is taking off in a plane - if you haul back hard on the stick while you're rolling down the runway, the plane will usually 'comply' by getting off the ground, but whether you stay up there or come crashing back down depends on the amount of lift the plane is experiencing - i.e. the things you've done to build up that level of compliance in the first place. It's possible to push too hard for compliance and pressure her to agree to something that later turns into a lot of resistance or inhibition. So I think of seduction more as an energy equation than a pursuit of compliance per se.

Then of course there is the question of what seduction means to you - if you want it to be an efficient path to the bedroom or whether you want to enjoy yourself creating certain experiences with her along the way. This is very subjective of course, you could describe it as the quest to realize your personal art of seduction. For example, I see seduction as the creation of a bubble in which she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't normally get to live out, and what is most erotic for me is seeing her immersed in that. All my favorite sexual experiences have been with girls who started off with a shell, and emerged out of it with me. And probably only 50% of what I enjoy about that actually involves the act of sex.

Great post that covers a lot of useful elements of seduction.

Even though I don't particularly like the term 'compliance', it does describe what seduction effectively is, in logical terms.

The only caveat I'd put there is that there is such a thing as too much compliance that backfires later on. The analogy I often use here is taking off in a plane - if you haul back hard on the stick while you're rolling down the runway, the plane will usually 'comply' by getting off the ground, but whether you stay up there or come crashing back down depends on the amount of lift the plane is experiencing - i.e. the things you've done to build up that level of compliance in the first place. It's possible to push too hard for compliance and pressure her to agree to something that later turns into a lot of resistance or inhibition. So I think of seduction more as an energy equation than a pursuit of compliance per se.

Then of course there is the question of what seduction means to you - if you want it to be an efficient path to the bedroom or whether you want to enjoy yourself creating certain experiences with her along the way. This is very subjective of course, you could describe it as the quest to realize your personal art of seduction. For example, I see seduction as the creation of a bubble in which she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't normally get to live out, and what is most erotic for me is seeing her immersed in that. All my favorite sexual experiences have been with girls who started off with a shell, and emerged out of it with me. And probably only 50% of what I enjoy about that actually involves the act of sex.

Thanks for the input Will. Always value your insights

I agree with pushing for compliance can be too much and that's a good mindset to have


Right now I'm planning to add an edit to the Op regarding general mindsets to have while practicing the techniques. Your idea of seeing seduction as a bubble for both of you so she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't live out will fall under it


However, the reason I tend to avoid more philosophical mindsets like what you described is because I've noticed it's harder to explain practically to people.

Other mindets I've come across from my natural friends and in the community are:

-Game is about feeling comfortable in yourself and allowing her feel comfortable


- seduction is about loving women for who they are: the good, the bad and being at peace with it


- Game is about showing vulnerability

-Seduction is about being bold and direct. Many women out there. So go big or go home


All of these are all good perspectives or mindsets to view seduction just like yours.

The issue is with them is when you tell guys in the community about it, it's hard for them to understand what they all mean in practical terms.

And when you start explaining and breaking things down... you realize that you start going towards the things in the OP

That's why I prefer explaining seduction from a more progressional logical model. Then, using mindsets like the one you gave to smoothen things out or as a mini goal

So for example... if someone is working on comfort/trust... he's obviously looking for a romantic sexual friendship not a business partner...

So from your definition, it's beneficial for him to use comfort/trust building techniques that allows the girl get comfortable enough for to live out a side of herself she doesn't usually do.

The goal of the op was to have something someone can go back to under a unifying problem

Cause one thing I've realised is when everyone starts giving their different perspectives on how they view seduction as a whole... it confuses and complicates things

However, when you have a model that's stable and repeatable while using the right mindsets it's easier for people to understand and replicate.


With that, you have different guys following the same model but from different perspectives/mindsets probably tailored to their strengths or personalities.

For example, it would look like this:

Guy A = seduction is being relaxed and slightly vulnerable so she feels the same = comfort/trust

Will = seduction is about creating a bubble for her experience an unexplored side of herself =comfort/trust


Guy B = seduction is loving women. If you love women, they will love you. =comfort/trust


As you can see, different perspectives and mindsets but each one building her comfort and trust from a different angle

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

“Distance” you say? You mean like what’s written about The Distance Between Attraction > Sex in this thread I wrote and wrote about earlier in the discord?




So this iswhat you read from Saul Tee in his book.



You use archetypes in seduction?
Could you post a Field Report of you using Archetypes and you specifically ‘moving the needle’ for compliance in your seductions?





How do you personally address the objections if she’s uncompliant to overcome it, as written here?
Is there a field report of you doing this?




This is what Ross Jeffries tends to do in his recent seduction Field Reports - focuses too much on Arousal over more important aspects of the seduction. This is part of the reason that Ross’s Speed seduction method he uses works so poorly.

I recently wrote a post about this in the discord that you saw and commented - good that you brought it here Paulie.




What are some other ways that you typically reward compliance?
Do you have many of these examples in a Field Report?



Thanks for referencing my post again from here and the discord. Very generous of you.




What ‘rapid emotional spikes’ do you use? Could you give some examples? Did you use these in any of your Field Reports?



Nice, Saul Tee devotes a long chapter in his book (Ch.5) to Emotional deep diving mixed with compliance.
Good to see you describing that technique here.
Have you got any examples of how you’ve used this in Field Reports - which ones?

Lol. Go derail another thread James. Poor attempt. I'm used to your tactics already. And have zero tolerance & patience for derailment of any kind

Or better yet, CREATE YOUR own thread and explain seduction from YOUR own perspective. If you won't do that like you always chicken out, go create a book and course and sell it if you want money

 

[topcat]

Great post! I did notice one small piece missing, which when I learned about it ment a lot for my game, and that's attainability. I guess it would fit in your "dynamic balances" somewhere, mabye as value vs. attainability

Thanks so much for this. I can't believe i forgot this because attainability was something that really improved my game.

I've edited the OP and added it

One thing about attainability with regards to this model (as this is THE model I follow and have yet to run into attainability issues since following it):

In this model we need to be super attentive to a woman’s state and compliance level, rewarding any ounce of compliance we see and ‘punishing’ genuine lack of it proportionally.

A woman who requires you to be more attainable is either a woman with high compliance in the outset (and this needs her compliance to be rewarded immediately) or a woman who is “sheepish” or nervous who is likely to comply on ask anyway at which you simply need to make sure you reward her.

In cases of initial low attainability ATTENTIVENESS and RESPONSIVENESS address this within this model.

High attainability results in low compliance on her part which means we ADDRESS IT with “PUNISHMENT” - typically less attention or closeness, until she invests or chases.

Low attainability results in high compliance on outset, to which we REWARD it, immediately and aggressively to prevent autorejection.

In short attainability is automatically addressed within this model. There’s no need to complicate it by tacking on additional material.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Great post! There´s a lot of great pointers in here. Most important aspects of game are also present, which gives a solid overview. Now, would I agree on your definition that seduction is mostly compliance? Probably not. I also don´t agree with the notion that sex is the main objective. It´s more like one of many different expressions of a solid seduction. Overall I´m not disagreeing with you at all, it´s a fantastic post, and I´m wiser for reading it.

Also, would you care to elaborate on how you deal with objections, as you mentioned in the end of your post?

Best regards, WD

Thanks for the kind words.

Well, unless you're like some of my Christian friends that have sworn "no sex till marriage" I don't see why sex shouldn't be the main objective


I mean if you want a romantic sexual relationship then it's a no brainer. You can make the argument that your objective should be having fun, getting to know her etc... BUT when you tell guys this... it tends to make guys lose their seductive killer instinct where they tend to forget that sex is one of the main results in the context of a romantic sexual relationship with a woman


I have two ways I deal with objections primarily: 1) humorize it or 2) pace and lead.

Which is based on my personality AND how the objection is brought up

For example, with pull objections... she might say "we're not having sex at your place" my go to objection is "I have zero expectations. I just like spending time with you"


---Sometimes I get safety objections like "I don't know you" "what if you're a kidnapper" These objections most times tend to come in a half serious-half kidding way. Almost like she doesn't want to be too serious and risk pissing me off but she's somewhat interested

I either humorize by exaggerating: "yeah I'll do that and keep you in my house so you can cook for me all year" (I avoid saying kidnap and avoid any sexual joke like "we'll make babies")

Or I humorize by teasing her: "if I do that I don't want you finishing my best food"

Or I humorize by flipping it on her.

Or I just humorize by showing her how absurd things are: so in response to "what if you're a kidnapper " it would be "then put you where? You can't fit in my pocket... I'll get the caught the next day"


Another objection I get is purity frame. Where a girl is trying to act or say "she's not that kind of girl" with this I just tell her everyone is depending on the right man and right situation


Another objection I got for when girls felt I was a player or not genuine.
I handle in either of two ways: one, I tell her "you're a smart girl... if a part of you didn't feel I was being genuine... you won't be here"

The other way is I tell a story of how I turned down a girl I wasn't feeling it with by removing my attention from her.

Frames and reframes is a good way to handle objections. This are my preferred ways

You can find out more on the site

 

[Will_V]

Thanks for the input Will. Always value your insights

I agree with pushing for compliance can be too much and that's a good mindset to have


Right now I'm planning to add an edit to the Op regarding general mindsets to have while practicing the techniques. Your idea of seeing seduction as a bubble for both of you so she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't live out will fall under it


However, the reason I tend to avoid more philosophical mindsets like what you described is because I've noticed it's harder to explain practically to people.

Other mindets I've come across from my natural friends and in the community are:

-Game is about feeling comfortable in yourself and allowing her feel comfortable


- seduction is about loving women for who they are: the good, the bad and being at peace with it


- Game is about showing vulnerability

-Seduction is about being bold and direct. Many women out there. So go big or go home


All of these are all good perspectives or mindsets to view seduction just like yours.

The issue is with them is when you tell guys in the community about it, it's hard for them to understand what they all mean in practical terms.

And when you start explaining and breaking things down... you realize that you start going towards the things in the OP

That's why I prefer explaining seduction from a more progressional logical model. Then, using mindsets like the one you gave to smoothen things out or as a mini goal

So for example... if someone is working on comfort/trust... he's obviously looking for a romantic sexual friendship not a business partner...

So from your definition, it's beneficial for him to use comfort/trust building techniques that allows the girl get comfortable enough for to live out a side of herself she doesn't usually do.

The goal of the op was to have something someone can go back to under a unifying problem

Cause one thing I've realised is when everyone starts giving their different perspectives on how they view seduction as a whole... it confuses and complicates things

However, when you have a model that's stable and repeatable while using the right mindsets it's easier for people to understand and replicate.


With that, you have different guys following the same model but from different perspectives/mindsets probably tailored to their strengths or personalities.

For example, it would look like this:

Guy A = seduction is being relaxed and slightly vulnerable so she feels the same = comfort/trust

Will = seduction is about creating a bubble for her experience an unexplored side of herself =comfort/trust


Guy B = seduction is loving women. If you love women, they will love you. =comfort/trust


As you can see, different perspectives and mindsets but each one building her comfort and trust from a different angle

Yep that's why I said that part's entirely subjective. If you want to explain in general terms what seduction is, it won't include much of what a given guy sees as his own personal ideal. So I wasn't expecting you to include it.

 

[Will_V]

Right now I'm planning to add an edit to the Op regarding general mindsets to have while practicing the techniques. Your idea of seeing seduction as a bubble for both of you so she can fully experience a side of herself she doesn't live out will fall under it

However, the reason I tend to avoid more philosophical mindsets like what you described is because I've noticed it's harder to explain practically to people.

That's why I prefer explaining seduction from a more progressional logical model. Then, using mindsets like the one you gave to smoothen things out or as a mini goal

That's a great way to approach the topic. Build a logical concept and then consider how different personality traits can best use it.

I think there's also an element of intuition vs technical understanding involved. I've always been somewhat intuitive in the way that my mind works - I'll characteristically draw on a lot of analogies to things I've experienced to form a concept of something, rather than trying to figure out its technical details or its objective nature. I feel as if I understand something when I recognize a pattern within it that I've seen across many different domains, even if I would struggle to explain that pattern to anyone.

 

[James Cruse]

Lol. Go derail another thread James. Poor attempt. I'm used to your tactics already. And have zero tolerance & patience for derailment of any kind

Or better yet, CREATE YOUR own thread and explain seduction from YOUR own perspective. If you won't do that like you always chicken out, go create a book and course and sell it if you want money

That’s ok mate - you’re talking about concepts you’ve never shown you’ve used before.

I’m glad you took inspiration from my Post about the Distance between Attraction > Sex which you mention several times.

I just wanted to see where the examples of where you used these techniques - I’m sure it would be appreciated by all.

If you haven’t got any examples to share - that’s ok, just say that.