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What's the hardest concept for you to wrap your head around in pickup?

Spyce D

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I don't know if it's a concept but maintaining self control in game-life balance .

If I game ( even if once per week ) , i neglect other aspects of my life and vice versa.

I took a break from game for my career and i have regressed a lot in my social skills.

And there is this fear that if I return to game , then I won't be able to focus on my career.
 

West_Indian_Archie

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For me, it is/was frame.
Probably number 2 was non-verbal communication vs subcommunication

I think for a lot of newbs - the ones I come across in my online circles and Reddit subs...

Pick Up Artistry vs Regular Dating...and for the last decade PUA vs Regular Dating vs Online Dating.
 

James D

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Please tell me you’ve read Nancy Fridays books. Especially ‘Forbidden Flowers’ & ‘My Secret Garden’.

Else grab them right away & read cover to cover. You’ll never be the same again

Not to mention the many ways you can use these books in your sexual frame & sex talks from now on
Yep read her books.

Doesnt change my query tho.

And in case you missed the point of my post, I don't have any issues in setting a sexual frame and sex talk (actually got pretty good at it)

It's about the overall concept of viewing women sexually during an actual physical interaction and feeling that intent strong enough.
 
a good date brings a smile to your lips... and hers

Jan

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Guys, the article @Chase is referring to is pure gold! Thank you so much for that.


You're absolutely right, you've got to assure her that her social face is intact and AT THE SAME TIME activate her sexual side. AND DO THIS WITH EVERY WOMAN WITH NO EXCEPTIONS!

While reading the article I had so many light bulbs firing up, because I lost so many girls, ON BOTH SIDES. Either not being sensitive and protective enough of her social face, or not escalating/not being sexual enough.

EVERY WOMAN HAS A WILD SEXUAL SIDE AND A SOCIAL FACE TO PROTECT. PERIOD.

This is the real meaning of the adage: "Treat a slut like a lady, and a lady like a slut.". More precisely it should be: "Treat EACH slut ALSO like a lady, and EACH lady ALSO like a slut."

No more of this this mistake for me! Let the flood of abundance begin. OPEN THE GATES!!!
 
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topcat

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Don’t understand push-pull. @ProblemSolving tried to explain it to me once, but it still feels counterintuitive.
Always felt incongruent to me.

A more calibrated way to implement it is to think of it as punishment and reward. When she leans in you lean in (when she complies, reward her with attention - pull?) when she leans back you lean back (punish - remove attention - push?). Not sure if that's what is traditionally known as push pull, but thats the most effective way i've found to implement it.

I can also see it being used early in an interaction to create compliance, by playfully oscillating between signs of interest and disinterest, but personally it feels too contrived to me. I'd rather calibrate to the signals I'm getting from the chick.

Hope that helps!
 

Atlas IV

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Glad to know I'm not the only one who struggles with a lot of these concepts. I resonate with most of what's been said here.

For me, frame control is top of the list. sometimes I think I understand it, but then I meet a girl with a wild personality who completely throws me off, and I'm not sure whether to treat it as a contest or just go along with it. Or I'll meet a girl who has such a strong platonic frame that I can't think of any way to sexualize the interaction - especially girls who are talkative and asking lots of questions about me, but in a platonic sense. I become so focused on the conversation that I forget I'm supposed to be seducing her.

Qualification is another one that I understand in theory but struggle to implement congruently. I've tried qualifying girls on their adventurousness, but they rarely try to qualify themselves back to me on this. I get that qualification is a powerful way to introduce sexual frames, I just still haven't figured out some congruent "go-to qualifiers" that work for me.
 

ChrisXKiss

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Takes a gigantic deliberate effort to actively view the woman I'm talking to sexually.

Often, I just end up forgetting and get sucked in the conversation.
But I'd like to achieve this more or less constant sexual state like naturals where they exude a sexual vibe even when talking with women they're not necessarily trying to pick up.
Yeah seconding this, it’s part of what I mean to be seductive. It’s simply difficult to stay sexual all the time especially if her vibe is just platonic and polite.

For me sometimes even if I get the conversation to sexual topics it is just a nice friendly conversation about them, and I’d like to understand how to just not get dragged into it.
For me, frame control is top of the list. sometimes I think I understand it, but then I meet a girl with a wild personality who completely throws me off, and I'm not sure whether to treat it as a contest or just go along with it. Or I'll meet a girl who has such a strong platonic frame that I can't think of any way to sexualize the interaction - especially girls who are talkative and asking lots of questions about me, but in a platonic sense. I become so focused on the conversation that I forget I'm supposed to be seducing her.
Also this, frame control is a big part of what I’m describing as well. Like what’s the frame of the seducer eventually, does he just let the girl go if she stays platonic for a long time, does he lose interest if she is all over the place? Or he is staying there playfully persisting, knowing she will want him, and if yes how and how much.
 

ChrisXKiss

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I kind of want to ADD something about this. Yes you can get X Y Z girls if you are X Y Z. But I really find that pickup sometimes GROSSLY underestimates the effects of social frame and that it can change calibration and odds.

If there is something I think was a very late epiphany for me I think it was this. Girls who liked me engaged in female state control, meanwhile other girls whos social frame I was more near to opened up real fast or are really forward. I am not saying nobody deviates, or anything nothing is set in stone, but trends are obvious from my perspective.

I understand that this is not helpful with pickin up girls and can lead to people crying about things being unfair, that being said IT IS ACTUALLY A THING. I think this subject is avoided because we are tired of guys like IRT who keep moaning about how life is hard because they are Indian or whatever. Nevertheless, it is very real.
I do agree with this in fact and started also realising it lately. Basically how important similarity is.

As you say they will just not open up to you and it’s a big thing. I also feel Chase is one of the few people directly mentioning that.

For me for a long time I thought that if I have an excellent frame and belief in myself I could go and open any girl anywhere and with the right game seduce her. But the reality is that when you go up to an extra stylish girl and you are dressed like a bum she may just not let herself be seduced no matter what you do.

And this really took me long time to realise, I even thought it could give me even more points that I don’t care how different we are and I go for it anyway. Still have a lot of work to do in this area, probably have not even internalised it fully, as I don’t enjoy conforming just to get access to certain girls.

I do think it is helpful with pickup though, because there are things to do to have a better social frame in different scenarios. How you dress up, how you talk, where you hang out and with whom.

So it is quite crucial, that said I was mostly focused on how you come off whether you have a favourable social frame or not. Basically being the seductive man that if she got to spend some time with you she would feel it. And even if you didn’t have a great social frame, she would still be open to sex with you in a discreet way.
 

James D

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"Treat EACH slut ALSO like a lady, and EACH lady ALSO like a slut."
Great way to put it.

And yes, that was a freaking great article.

Easily top 10.
 
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POB

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I don't know if it's a concept but maintaining self control in game-life balance .

If I game ( even if once per week ) , i neglect other aspects of my life and vice versa.

I took a break from game for my career and i have regressed a lot in my social skills.

And there is this fear that if I return to game , then I won't be able to focus on my career.
Underrated comment.
Balance is so key when you are doing this stuff.
Sadly, I think this will be an eternal struggle for me : (
 

Derek da man

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Personally I'm still working on not being "Mr Nice Guy" due to many years of being exactly that.

I can also relate to people who struggle with understanding Frames and Frame control as the overall Frame of a conversation is actually made up of many smaller Frames which can involve power/lead of the conversation going back and forth.

For me it's less about the "mentalities in seduction" as @Chase put it, it's more about taking them from theory and putting them into an appropriate context. Articles are usually very insightful and logical, but actually making it relative and seeing that in a real conversation is more challenging. My learning style is very practical and I'm not so good with theory on it's own, I need it applied. I always find the articles and field reports that use typical conversations as examples and then explain how they breakdown the concept they are trying to explain.


This article is a classic example, in the third conversation where it demonstrates both the point that was being made as well as showing examples of how you can use things like the compliance, yes ladders and takeaway (rewarding or not).

Some people see conversational constructs in real time throughout a conversation. I tend to be too "in the conversation" instead of being able to sit back and see it as if I was watching it on telly. I guess this is like a lot of guys who have a bit of an ADHT side I don't always a lot of the nuances that are going on. I think this is probable where the "naturals" do really well, but equally I think its a skill that can be worked on and developed.
 

Marty

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...This is the real meaning of the adage: "Treat a slut like a lady, and a lady like a slut.". More precisely it should be: "Treat EACH slut ALSO like a lady, and EACH lady ALSO like a slut."
This is the real meaning of the adage: "Treat a slut like a lady, and a lady like a slut.". More precisely it should be: "Treat EACH slut ALSO like a lady, and EACH lady ALSO like a slut."
Great way to put it.

And yes, that was a freaking great article.

Easily top 10.
@Jan , @James D , I have heard this adage, but I have difficulty knowing how to do this without massively over-investing in a girl whom I of course will treat like a lady when I am with her, but who is not a suitable lasting mate. So as not to derail this very useful thread, I've gone into more detail elsewhere with my questions about this.

A more calibrated way to implement it is to think of it as punishment and reward. When she leans in you lean in (when she complies, reward her with attention - pull?) when she leans back you lean back (punish - remove attention - push?). Not sure if that's what is traditionally known as push pull, but thats the most effective way i've found to implement it.

I can also see it being used early in an interaction to create compliance, by playfully oscillating between signs of interest and disinterest, but personally it feels too contrived to me. I'd rather calibrate to the signals I'm getting from the chick.
That is so much more helpful, @topcat , I can really feel how that should work now! Thank you so much!

-Marty
 

Francis

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One concept that still kind of trips me up is mate attractiveness vs. sexual attraction. It ties in with one of the most foundational concepts - lover vs. provider value.

A point you have made, Chase, which I agree with, is that casual hookups for women are a mechanism to determine one's place in the sexual marketplace (pre-satisficing), and a woman accepting of an mLTR role is still unfailingly going to be gunning towards full commitment even if she verbalizes otherwise (I.e. her game is what Skills terms containment).

It seems to jive with the concept of conspicuous consumption being attractive for short term hookups. Maybe it is her trigger to see if she can get a high status rich guy and/or her method of relationship entry (for the nightclub party girl) to shoot her shot at potentially starting a relationship with Mr. Bottle Service, who may also be Mr. Yacht Owner. So does the conspicuous consumption actually get her wet, or is it simply a dice roll for Ms. Gold Digger? Maybe it's a low probability dice roll for an LTR, but if she fucks enough bottle service guys, maybe she will eventually land her Hasbro game piece on Park Place while enjoying the validation of some spins around the board in the process.

See I am all over the place in KJ land here. I don't even really have a question formulated. I am just confused!

I am sitting on a family member's dock right now with a nice boat and jet ski behind me. All I can think about is how the minute his wife married him, his SMV was assessed as within the range of what she can get, and therefore less than that of everyone she could not get. I almost resent her with every bite of this cheese she puts out.

I know you have said monogamy can work, and also that she cannot ever feel she completely has you sexually. But if I cold approach a girl coming out of a library and one month later start thinking we could have some kids some day, can it ever be until death do us part, or just until our little Timmy goes off to college?

I used to believe in soul mates. Now I get bitter when my cousins don't notice when their wives check me out.

The lover's curse.
 

Chase

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Thanks for all the responses here, fellas.

Surprised me, because I plunked it down into Beginners but we got a bunch of higher-level guys chiming in with things that are fuzzy for them!

@alexlaguma @gameboy @Arnav @Kaida @West_Indian_Archie @Atlas IV @ChrisXKiss

New piece on frames / frame control up here, since that's clearly the most common topic here by far:


I tried to keep this one focused on the basic concept. But there's room for more here, such as addressing things like this:

For me, frame control is top of the list. sometimes I think I understand it, but then I meet a girl with a wild personality who completely throws me off, and I'm not sure whether to treat it as a contest or just go along with it. Or I'll meet a girl who has such a strong platonic frame that I can't think of any way to sexualize the interaction - especially girls who are talkative and asking lots of questions about me, but in a platonic sense. I become so focused on the conversation that I forget I'm supposed to be seducing her.

(another example would be the seducer conversation in the article I wrote, where the guy approaches the girl, but she simply does not crack. At what point do you throw the towel in? Does it mean you have to accept her frame? Generally for these girls I shrug, roll my eyes, and go "Well, she's being difficult right now" then keep my eye on her to see if I notice her warming up later if it's in a social venue where I can circle back)

I'd be interested to know if the new article helps crystalize frames & frame control, or if not what lingering questions you still have.

Also, @gameboy and @Kaida, there's an example in the third-to-last paragraph of co-opting ("grabbing") a girl's frame.

Chase
 

orkie123

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New piece on frames / frame control up here, since that's clearly the most common topic here by far:



Chase

Your ability to explain things is incredible, this was extremely helpful.

Hopefully not to derail the thread but I have a few follow up questions on frames:

1) When people set frames you disagree with, do you always need to engage with them?

For example, if a girl says "I would never date a Trump supporter". I hardly care about politics but I also don't agree with such a statement. I get the urge to say something along the lines of "Personally, unless they were extreme about their political views, I care more about common goals and girls who have a fun, energetic vibe then who they vote for. If you met Mr Perfect for you that makes you feel butterflies in your stomach all the time, would you really care if he votes for Donald Trump as long as he isn't some crazy extremist?"

But I've found even statements like that get certain girls angry. "Yes, if he supports Trump he is a woman hating blah blah blah". So lately I go with "haha that's wild, by the way did you know that #Change topic#. This avoids the risk of an unhealthy debate, but at same time, I'm not sure if I want to be with a girl who has such blank statements and will stand her ground without good justification. It also feels like she has won the frame and I've lost masculinity points.


2) How to set casual frames when she is looking for a relationship?

Even when girls say they are not looking for one, their words and actions often make it seem like they do. I can say things that explain how casual relationships can be amazing for both people. How society judges girls unfairly for wanting sex. But sometimes, she will even agree with what I'm saying but rather than joining my frame, she kind of just separates the two.

She realises I'm not what she is looking for and mentally moves on. Now, if this is genuine, then it's a good thing. I don't want to convert 100% relationship girls. But reality is, most of these girls would then go on something casual with someone who was more successful in setting the right casual frame. I don't get where I'm going wrong
 

Chase

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@orkie123,

Your ability to explain things is incredible, this was extremely helpful.

Glad to hear that explanation was a help.

Hopefully not to derail the thread but I have a few follow up questions on frames:

1) When people set frames you disagree with, do you always need to engage with them?

For example, if a girl says "I would never date a Trump supporter". I hardly care about politics but I also don't agree with such a statement. I get the urge to say something along the lines of "Personally, unless they were extreme about their political views, I care more about common goals and girls who have a fun, energetic vibe then who they vote for. If you met Mr Perfect for you that makes you feel butterflies in your stomach all the time, would you really care if he votes for Donald Trump as long as he isn't some crazy extremist?"

But I've found even statements like that get certain girls angry. "Yes, if he supports Trump he is a woman hating blah blah blah". So lately I go with "haha that's wild, by the way did you know that #Change topic#. This avoids the risk of an unhealthy debate, but at same time, I'm not sure if I want to be with a girl who has such blank statements and will stand her ground without good justification. It also feels like she has won the frame and I've lost masculinity points.

I'm a big fan of "agree and amplify" for women spouting off various inane/pointless opinions (you know the old saying: "Opinions are like assholes: everybody's got 'em.").

HER: I would never date a Trump supporter.​
YOU: [over the top tone] I hear they all have 1" dicks!​
HER: [laughs] Really.​
YOU: Yep. I also heard they shoot illegal immigrants on sight.​
HER: [laughs]That's not true!​
YOU: It totally is. Anyhow... [change topic]​

Once you get to the point where the girl is arguing with you and saying, "Come on, they're not THAT bad!" or else she is playing along with it and agreeing with obviously absurd, outlandish statements, you are out of "share a bunch of stupid opinions" territory and back into flirtation again.

(making fun of someone's inane position is you superficially taking their side while at a deeper layer poking fun at them. People realize this subconsciously even if they don't realize what you are doing consciously, which is why it pulls it back into flirtation and teasing again -- because by agreeing & amplifying you are, in fact, teasing her on her silly statements)

P.S. You can 100% use this stuff even if you are the thing the chick is inveighing against. If you're joking around that Trump supporters have 1" dicks and shoot illegals on sight, and then it comes out later in actual serious conversation that you are a Trump supporter, it just makes you look like even more of a boss that you can sit there unruffled and poke fun at a woman's inane ideas about people "like you" and not feel the need to start arguing or declaring "But wait, I am that!" etc.

Anyway, if a girl tells me "Pick up artists are so sleazy" I will typically respond with something like "I hear they all live in their mothers' basements and bang chicks who look like Quasimodo" with a totally straight face so she won't know if I'm kidding or serious.

2) How to set casual frames when she is looking for a relationship?

Even when girls say they are not looking for one, their words and actions often make it seem like they do. I can say things that explain how casual relationships can be amazing for both people. How society judges girls unfairly for wanting sex. But sometimes, she will even agree with what I'm saying but rather than joining my frame, she kind of just separates the two.

She realises I'm not what she is looking for and mentally moves on. Now, if this is genuine, then it's a good thing. I don't want to convert 100% relationship girls. But reality is, most of these girls would then go on something casual with someone who was more successful in setting the right casual frame. I don't get where I'm going wrong

This is predominantly about actions much more so than it is what words you say.

These two articles are relevant here:



If you are having girls drop you because you aren't getting serious but then move on to date other guys in casual relationships, that can have one of a few different causes:

  1. You are treating them too much like serious girlfriends. Seeing them too often, building too deep a connection, letting them sleep over, meeting their friends or having them meet yours, doing stuff in public together where you are acting like a couple, etc. Your words say "Let's keep it casual" but your actions say "This is getting serious" and the girl cannot handle the cognitive dissonance and bails for a guy able to keep it more straightforward for her.

  2. You are not getting the casual lover job done. A man is worth keeping around as an FWB if he is really good at scratching her itches. i.e., he fucks the stuffing out of her and makes her cum like a champ. If you're fucking the daylights out of her, she is usually going to be VERY conflicted about leaving no matter WHAT the relationship frame is. If your sexual performance is lacking, you can sometimes keep FWBs around for a while just by being a really cool, chill guy who they like hanging out with, especially if their friends are pretty lame or they don't have a lot of friends right now. But really, as FWB, you have ONE job, and that is banging her well. Make sure that part is in place.

  3. The FWB lifecycle ran its course and they moved to the next guy. If your FWBs are lasting 3-4 months before they move on, then there's a good chance you are not doing anything wrong at all and these relationships are simply running their course. The usual FWB lifecycle is 3-4 months, at which point if it does not turn serious the girl will bail and try the next guy. You will see guys online (and I have had friends doing this) talking about having FWBs for a year or more, but these are special cases: high sex drive avoidant attachment style women who maintain multiple ongoing FWBs and eschew committed relationships, for instance. In other cases they are guys dating chicks much lower SMV than them who stick around for the moon shot of hoping to get really lucky and end up in an LTR with this otherwise out-of-their-leagues guy.

Some guys like setting verbal FWB frames at the outset, like, "Let's not put any labels or pressure or rules or anything on this. But it'd be cool to continue hanging out after this sometimes." I haven't really liked doing this a whole lot traditionally but women are getting more autistic and retarded these days so it's kind of getting more important to verbally spell it out for them.

You can drop various frames throughout, like that you are very busy or that you don't tolerate drama, which tell women in no uncertain terms, "I'm not interested in investing too much in you."

But ultimately you set far more palpable frames through your actions than you do through your words.

Act like an FWB, fuck her stuffing out when you see her, and your FWBs should stick around at least till the 3-month mark, and longer if they lack options, or lack options of your caliber, or are avoidant attachment style.

Chase
 

ChrisXKiss

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Once you get to the point where the girl is arguing with you and saying, "Come on, they're not THAT bad!" or else she is playing along with it and agreeing with obviously absurd, outlandish statements, you are out of "share a bunch of stupid opinions" territory and back into flirtation again.
Hey Chase, that was a lovely example. I have one question, because I haven’t really tried this a lot with women that get political or have strong ideas about things like feminism. How many of them in your experience are very serious about these positions?

Because my fear is that I will tease them like in your example and then they will stay in the topic, saying something like: “Are you for real now? Take this seriously”.

I guess I’ve been around Uni environments a lot with girls very into leftist positions, that would even enjoy debating you on things like communism, that I always doubted if I can just tease them and they would roll with it. I was feeling that trying to evade discussing the topic or sharing my opinions would simply make them ask more or just disengage and lose interest.
 

Chase

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@ChrisXKiss,

Hey Chase, that was a lovely example. I have one question, because I haven’t really tried this a lot with women that get political or have strong ideas about things like feminism. How many of them in your experience are very serious about these positions?

Because my fear is that I will tease them like in your example and then they will stay in the topic, saying something like: “Are you for real now? Take this seriously”.

I guess I’ve been around Uni environments a lot with girls very into leftist positions, that would even enjoy debating you on things like communism, that I always doubted if I can just tease them and they would roll with it. I was feeling that trying to evade discussing the topic or sharing my opinions would simply make them ask more or just disengage and lose interest.

Yeah, now you're getting into "frame control with a highly resistant woman" territory, which is one of the topics I'd like to address in a follow-up article.

Most chicks don't do this kind of thing most places you'll be talking to them. I mean, if you go to a political rally or something, then all bets are off, but if you're chilling at a party or a bar or chatting up a girl you approached in a park or café or what have you this kind of tone-deaf, antisocial "No my friend, we are HAVING a political argument RIGHT NOW!" nonsense really only happens with girls with a real bug up their asses drinking down too much hatorade on their phones or who are otherwise in a really prickly mood for some reason (maybe they're horny).

With the retarded/anti-social ones, usually the best call is going to be to exit the interaction gracefully so you can go approach another, more normal chick.

However, if you really want to stick around and try to win the frame battle for some reason (maybe it is social circle and you are going to run into this girl again), the best is to move it up to the meta frame:

YOU: [agreeing & amplifying her political rant position]​
HER: I'm serious. This is not a joke. Trump supporters are a THREAT to our democracy!​
YOU: I like your passion! So are you a political activist?​
HER: No, I'm just a concerned citizen who cares about OUR country's values.​
YOU: Well we should all be so passionate as you. [pause] What else do you get excited about, or is it mostly politics for you?​
HER: [thinking for five seconds and processing your frame] Sorry, I just read a news article today that really made me mad. Umm, I'm actually really into art.​
YOU: With your passion and a creative streak I'll bet you make some pretty awesome artwork. [showing interest to reward her for taking your hint and switching to a positive theme instead of her rant!]​
HER: I'm actually a sculptor. I like to sculpt [blah blah blah]​

Usually when someone is hopped up on some kind of animalistic rant it is because this person is very pissed off at whatever the thing is and/or suspects you of being one of "the other." If you are able to stay unmoved and examine things from a higher plane, most of the time that will pull that person out of it and let her relax.

Anyway, most of this ranting you see is online. People are a lot less likely to be so socially retarded as to start ranting at strangers in real life. That said, people in general are getting a lot angrier and more socially retarded, and this stuff does seem to be happening more. You just need to know the right ways to defuse it and make things chill.

Chase
 

Francis

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Ugh Chase, I was literally eating goat yogurt. Thanks a lot for that anchor... :X3:🐏☠️
 
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