Why do I need to be a "Lover" if what I want is a GF?

[Bboy100]

Given that my goal is to find a GF, I'm starting to question the validity of the supposed necessity to be categorized as a "lover" and the necessity to move fast with girls.

If my goal is to find a GF, I feel like it would be far easier if I take her on the standard 3 date courtship routine instead of spending years trying to get good enough at this to consistently be categorized as a "lover" by women. Only to have fast+easy sex with a girl whom I'd like to see again anyways.

Ok, I get it...I might lose a couple girls along the way because attraction expires, or I just mess up along the way somehow (much more likely given the extended dating process) or I get beat by faster moving competition. But I feel like I will lose far more girls trying to, and inevitably failing for a long time to qualify myself as a lover. Why will I lose them? Because I'll try to escalate when they see me as a 'provider", and I'll get a mountain of resistance. And as we all know, failed escalation=never see her again.

So I guess what I'm trying to figure out is: Is the nature of a relationship which started out as the guy being a lover different than one which started via the standard 3 date courtship method that most guys would do? How so? More generally, is learning to move fast with girls really that important if what I really want is an LTR?

Note: I'm by no means saying its not worth learning game. I think learning how to approach, have proper conversation skills, be bold, create good logistics, properly escalate and the plethora of other things involved in the dating process are all vital to our success. I'm only challenging the concept of necessarily moving fast and being seen by girls as a "lover".

 

[ProblemSolving]

Bboy,

No, you do not need to get laid on the first date to get a GF. However, you maximize your odds of seeing a girl you like again by sleeping with her. When a girl has sex with a guy, she's heavily invested in him and will more likely want to see him again. Without sex, she can really drop you for a million minor reasons that you have no control over and not have any second thoughts about it. In that time frame from first date till when you eventually get laid, you better hope and pray nothing comes up and pisses all over the investment you've made because practically anything in her life can derail your dating relationship.

Also, I know most of your experience is from Tinder, so I have to ask, have you dated non-Tinder girls? The reason I ask is because, while Tinder is awesome for racking up lots of lays with pretty girls, it's the worst place for finding a good GF. I've dated some of the hottest girls you can find on Tinder and most of the upper echelon chicks are hardcore boyfriend hunters that will not put out on the first date no matter how sexy, smooth or aggressive you are. They operate from a place of absolute abundance more so than any man could achieve. Their options are limitless and they have a ton of experience at screening out "Lovers", so you won't be getting laid unless you check all of their boxes and it's on their timetable. Since there is usually double the number of male Tinder users than female users, even if you're a top percentile male, you're getting a raw deal if you're looking for a GF.

Now as to why I recommend daygame if you're looking for a girlfriend. First, let's pick a hot single chick on the street who doesn't use Tinder. How many options for men does she have? Maybe, 15 or 20 guys from her social circle at school or work. I'm not gonna bother counting all the orbiters on Instagram and Facebook, since they are non-factors. Depending on her daily routine, she may get cold approached once or twice a day, but most of the guys that actually do have the balls to approach are the kind of guys that no girl wants. So were left with 15 or 20 guys that are competition. What happens when a sexy guy on the street approaches her and they exchange numbers? She's excited! She FINALLY met a sexy and cool guy, who's not creepy. Since you're a scarce resource to her, she'll be more excited to see you, more excited to sleep with you, and will treat you far better in a relationship.

Let's go back to the hot Tinder girl. How many options for sexy men does she have? Limitless if she's willing to swipe long enough. How excited is she going to be to sleep with any of the guys? Not really. She knows no matter how sexy, successful, masculine he is, there's more coming down the pipe. If they want sex, she's gonna make sure they commit heavily before giving it up.

Also, back in the day, I used to use a two date model that got me my first girlfriend from cold approach. First date was a quick and simple coffee, frozen yogurt or whatever drink, then walk to a park. Sit next to her on the bench, talk, deep dive a bit, touch her legs, then after about 45 minutes or an hour, I would then end it abruptly. This always took them by surprise.

Then in the following days invite her over for dinner and close.

Blackdragon swears by this model. He compares first date sex to second date sex here, and even Chase is mentioned:

http://www.blackdragonblog.com/2013/06/16/sex-on-the-first-date-or-second/

 

[Troy]

Bboy,

Check out this article "The Long Term Relationship

If my goal is to find a GF, I feel like it would be far easier if I take her on the standard 3 date courtship routine instead of spending years trying to get good enough at this to consistently be categorized as a "lover" by women. Only to have fast+easy sex with a girl whom I'd like to see again anyways.

This is the wrong mindset. You could have sex with the first girl you approach and she becomes your girlfriend. It could be the 200th girl.

You don't need to get lots of sex experience with many girls. It only helps getting experience to be amazing. Want a girlfriend now? Cool! You can practice sex with her and get really good... More girls and your great. The 3 dates rule is outdated. Always try to get sex as soon as possible. It will up your chances of seeing her again, and it's the best thing to do if you want her as your girlfriend.

I hope that helps

Troy

 

[Bboy100]

Agreed. Given that I can move fast with a girl, I will do so without hesitation. I'm well aware that my chances of us becoming anything at all decrease drastically with each additional date I take her on. However, in my experience, a failed escalation brings my chances to absolutely 0. So if I do take her home on a first date, then try to move things forward then fail, I'm done. I'm completely out. And with girls who are "more conservative", the chances of me taking them as lovers on a first date (given my current skill level) are practically none.

The reason I say this is because I count having had isolated and starting to escalate with four different girls just in the past few weeks, and I only laid one of them. And she was drunk. All the rest gave me too much resistance to overcome. I never saw any of the other three again. Also, this same pattern happened around 6 times throughout this last summer. I've read every article on this site on overcoming LMR, started numerous forum threads, bought DrexelScott's book Straight to Sex. I've tried all of these strategies at least a few times. None of them have worked so far. I've never laid a girl by "overcoming LMR". In fact, I'm going off pure faith that such a thing as "overcoming resistance" even exists in the first place.

Moreover, it seem LMR is the number one biggest sticking point people have on the forums. So I'm starting to doubt that there even is any level of consistency when it comes to dealing with it in the first place.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is: I have 0 confidence in my ability to close a girl who is sober and hasn't made the logical decision to sleep with me on a first date. Whereas, if I do take her on multiple dates, even if my chances of bedding her are pretty low...even if its like, 10%, that's still better than my current stats (0%).

Also, I know most of your experience is from Tinder, so I have to ask, have you dated non-Tinder girls? The reason I ask is because, while Tinder is awesome for racking up lots of lays with pretty girls, it's the worst place for finding a good GF. I've dated some of the hottest girls you can find on Tinder and most of the upper echelon chicks are hardcore boyfriend hunters that will not put out on the first date no matter how sexy, smooth or aggressive you are. They operate from a place of absolute abundance more so than any man could achieve. Their options are limitless and they have a ton of experience at screening out "Lovers", so you won't be getting laid unless you check all of their boxes and it's on their timetable. Since there is usually double the number of male Tinder users than female users, even if you're a top percentile male, you're getting a raw deal if you're looking for a GF.

Admittedly, no. I've finally overcome normal AA and started getting numbers with at least some consistency via night game. None of them panned out except one. She will be my first ever non-Tinder date. But tbh, I'm not really interested in LTRs with the girls I meet via night game anyways. But I admit, you do bring up a good point. I guess this abundance girls have might also be part of the reason why I'm getting so much LMR?

Now as to why I recommend daygame if you're looking for a girlfriend.

I'm living in a small town now. Most the population is students who go to my college, and 35+ yr old residents. So basically, the only feasible place to do Day Game is campus. I'd really like to do Day game there, but I'm deathly afraid that mass approaching during the day will cause lots of rep damage. I realize on a logical level that reputation really isn't all that important. But I still just can't buy into it on an emotional level. This additionally limiting belief leaves me back at square one...paralyzed with AA.

Sorry if it sounds like I'm making excuses. That's definitely not my intention.

 

[Smith]

BBoy,

I also failed many times by moving fast and sometimes I wonder if things could've been better if I move a little slower, but it's a learning process. Once you figure out how to calibrate and sometimes just go with the flow, first date sex seems pretty natural and normal to you. It would actually be a little weird to go on a date 3-4times and not go anywhere close to sex, especially when you value your time.

I like the article Troy posted. One very important thing to note from Chase is that you use your "cheeseburger game" with any girl, whether you want her only for ONS or LTR. The moment you think you need to "put on your A game" for a girl, you're almost guaranteed to fuck up.

The two date process PS talked about is great. Usually if I sense the chemistry with a girl is not that strong enough for her to come home with me on the first date, I'll end the date and invite her over in the next 3-4 days to cook dinner. This works pretty well most of the time, just seed it on your first date that you love cooking and it'll be pretty natural for you to invite her over.

To paint yourself as the lover....move fast, sex talk, touch, sexual vibe. Calibration is really important.

I live in a small college town and I meet girls on campus as well. Not sure how big your college is, but I'm sure you'll be alright if you can read social cues lol. and yes reputation damage is a limiting belief. No one gives a shit if you're telling girls they look cute. Don't take yourself too seriously and smile. Go out and just give compliments to people - guys and girls.

 

[Big Daddy]

I haven't been around for a few weeks and this is the very first thread I read since I got back and I'm already excited... Lots of interesting points here

Bboy, I feel your pain, dude. I started observing a natural friend of mine and he practically never ever bed the girl on the first date. He waits until date 2 or 3. Not long ago, he had a beautiful GF which he bedded only weeks after meeting her when they first met.

So I started to think whether I was losing more girls by trying to fuck them on the first date instead of waiting a few dates. But quite frankly, I also wondered if it would help. You wondered if LMR is even something you can overcome and I do too. I mean, if she's not DTF to begin with, can you actually make her change her mind like a binary computer and fuck you?

My rationale is: for us men, it's a number game. Your objective is finding those 1-10 (depending on your level) girls out of 100 that are DTF. You will try to bed all of them, and 90% of them will give you mountains of LMR and you can't really do much about it.

What you CAN do once you're getting experience is screening those 100 girls and perfecting your process so you can push her buttons right and hope for her to want to fuck so bad that she can't control herself so you can bed a higher percentage of girls you meet. Take a look at Drexel. He fucked 100s of women and you can see by the way he talks about his lays that they were like the girls wanted to fuck him from the very start. Hector also repeatedly bashes on the fact that he fucks 1 out of every 25-50 women he approaches.

So I don't sweat over it. These guys have done it right. Franco said repeatedly that his girl is awesome and it took him months cold approaching to be at the level to bed her on the first date (and that's because he was very socially savvy).

Eventually you'll probably hit a point where you fucked 3-4 good GF prospects on the first date and will be able to choose which one of them you want.

Plus, there's a very, very good advantage of moving fast: it allows you to fail much faster and learn much faster. Until you're sleeping regularly with 2+ girls per month, you're probably better off being overly bold.

----

Since we're already talking about it, what do you guys think about the "numbers game" aspect of seduction? Valid or not? Can you really overcome LMR with a girl that isn't DTF?

Here's some good articles on the subject before you answer:

Think in Numbers: Talking to Lots of Girls

What If I Approached 100 Hot Chicks? (Good Looking Loser)

 

[Zoro]

I kind of skimmed over the other replies so sorry if this was mentioned but being in a "lover" category isn't like a black belt degree where you have to work hard to get to...

Its really just about making your value as a sexy man higher than your value as a provider.

Tone down your provider traits and amp up your lover traits.

Good Fundamentals and vibe are basically lover's traits.

And reason why you want to be sexy is because the bond you will have with her will be based on attraction. It'll be a more fun masculine - feminine dynamic and she will respect you more.

Provider's have a bond with a girl based on societal expectations, which gets messy when it breaks down and doesn't garner much respect from the woman.

 

[Franco]

Bboy,

I've kind of skimmed this one as well. ProblemSolving gave you some great pointers in the initial response.

On the topic of sex on the first date:

Sex on the first date should always be your target goal, but it never means that its the end of an interaction (unless the girl chooses not to see you again after date one). As a matter of fact, the majority of women that I've bedded have been after multiple dates. The thing to realize is that, for every date after the first, your chances of sleeping with a girl go down. A lot of times, a girl won't even be willing to see you again if she feels like the first date did not go well. But until she actually stops going on dates with you, your chances are not 0%.

But if a first date went "well" but you could not get her to go home with you, then it's absolutely worth trying to get her home on the second or third date (assuming you find her attractive and there aren't better prospects on the horizon). Always use your judgment when it comes to deciding these things. Aim for sleeping with a girl on the first date and practice that scenario most frequently, but always be willing and prepared to bed girls after multiple dates as well -- not doing so is only going to cost you some potential lays, and possibly with some outstanding women.

- Franco

 

[ProblemSolving]

Radeng,

I'm curious to know how each date went with the 4 date chick. From what I can remember, there were times when things were pretty precarious and you thought your goose was cooked a few times haha. What did you do on the second date after the failed escalation? I'm guessing it was very G rated and more of a traditional bf/gf date? Girls are usually on guard after a failed escalation so a casual meet up won't cut it in my experience.

 

[Franco]

PS,

I'm curious to know how each date went with the 4 date chick. From what I can remember, there were times when things were pretty precarious and you thought your goose was cooked a few times haha. What did you do on the second date after the failed escalation? I'm guessing it was very G rated and more of a traditional bf/gf date? Girls are usually on guard after a failed escalation so a casual meet up won't cut it in my experience.

From my personal experience, a "failed escalation" is usually a death sentence to a seduction for most girls. If you get to the point where she's at your place and clothes are coming off but you fail to seal the deal, then it makes it really difficult for her to want to see you again after that. It's almost as if she rationalizes, "well, I was almost naked with him and then decided not to do it at the last minute... there must be a reason for that. I probably shouldn't see him again."

Most of the girls I bedded after multiple dates did not get to the escalation stage. The date usually ended prior to that, and then escalation happened on a future date where I was able to seal the deal.

- Franco

 

[Bboy100]

From my personal experience, a "failed escalation" is usually a death sentence to a seduction for most girls.

Franco,
I've had the exact same experiance. Which is what inspired this post. I pull a lot of girls home or otherwise isolate them, but I close almost none of them. My dating pattern atm is literally Go on date>Pull or otherwise isolate>Start escalating but fail to close> Never see the girl again. I feel like maybe a second date would do me a lot of good because at the very least, it would check off the logical box in a women's head of "Ok, this is not a first date anymore. Its now a second date. Society dictates that its much less slutty of me to sleep with him now, then it would be on the first. Ergo, I am more open to having sex with him than I was on the first date."

The problem I'm facing is that I don't really know if I can close on a first date. And there's no way for me to know until either A. She refuses to go home with me (not usually the case) or B. She puts up too much resistance or decides to leave. Since its usually B, it feels like trying to escalate is a huge gamble. Cause once I start, I am no past "the point of no return" so to speak. Whereas, if I never try to escalate to begin with, I'm reletively confident she would be down to see me again. I know this because half the girls I don't pull (usually because I'm not attracted to them) will usually chase me for a second date. Usually in the form of texting me that they had a good time, or sometimes, even directly asking me to go out with them again. And I'm sure most the others would also be down to see me again. They just don't want to be the ones to make the first move.

Nor has it been my experience that failed escalations are a death knell.

Radeng,
I've literally never had a second date with a girl with whom I had a failed escalation. But perhaps you're doing something better than I am. What's your strategy for setting up second dates? More specifically- Do you text or call? How many days do you wait? What's the content of your texts/calls? etc.

 

[Bboy100]

Thanks Radeng, this was a very helpful post! Particularly the stats from your journal.

Given those stats, I think I'll start trying to do multiple dates for at least a while. I think Blackdragon's method- the one ps linked sounds pretty solid. And I was kinda planning on something like that anyways.


Also, the 0 LMR on your 8 pulls part helps me realize that trying to overcome any type of resistance other than "token" resistance is an uphill battle. Its best to work on setting up and executing my dates in a way where there is none to begin with. So from this point on, I'm going to focus less on smooth escalations, and more on setting the right frames throughout the date itself.

EDIT: I also want to quickly note that a couple of the girls that I had a "failed escalation" with on date one who I never got back with texted me a few weeks later asking why I never hit them back up saying they were up for hanging out again. I wasn't particularly attracted to these few so I didn't pursue.

I'm actually trying something similar with a girl I failed an escalation with. Its been 6 days since I saw her, and I cut contact completely after the initial "had a good time" text. I plan on calling her tomorrow. I'm hoping this relatively long period of 0 contact will give her some time to "cool off" from the negative emotions associated with FEs and also might leave her wondering why I never got back to her again. Cause I'm guessing part of the nature of an FE is that the man's attainability spikes too high and the girl sees him as "too easy". Cutting contact for a while might balance that out a little bit.

 

[Franco]

Bboy, radeng,

I should mention that "social circle," as far as failed escalations go, is entirely different from cold approach or online game. Your chances of being able to see a girl again after a failed escalation if she's a "known" acquaintance is exponentially higher than if it's a girl you met on the street, in a club, or online/Tinder.

If you look back, radeng, I bet you would find that the majority of women who saw you again after a failed escalation were social circle girls -- girls you met through friends, events, or gatherings.

I would say Tinder or online girls probably have the lowest return rate after a failed escalation simply because it's much easier for them to just go back to browsing for cute guys who will close the deal on the first meetup rather than than take their chances with a guy who wasn't "good" enough to make it happen the first time.

EDIT: The same applies for multiple dates as well. Social circle girls or known acquaintances have a much higher chance of going on multiple dates with you as opposed to cold approach or online girls. So, Bboy, if you're doing online game still, I would highly recommend not attempting the multiple date strategy as it is a losing strategy almost every single time. If it's cold approach, then your chances should be slightly higher.

- Franco

 

[ProblemSolving]

PS,

I'm curious to know how each date went with the 4 date chick. From what I can remember, there were times when things were pretty precarious and you thought your goose was cooked a few times haha. What did you do on the second date after the failed escalation? I'm guessing it was very G rated and more of a traditional bf/gf date? Girls are usually on guard after a failed escalation so a casual meet up won't cut it in my experience.

From my personal experience, a "failed escalation" is usually a death sentence to a seduction for most girls. If you get to the point where she's at your place and clothes are coming off but you fail to seal the deal, then it makes it really difficult for her to want to see you again after that. It's almost as if she rationalizes, "well, I was almost naked with him and then decided not to do it at the last minute... there must be a reason for that. I probably shouldn't see him again."

Most of the girls I bedded after multiple dates did not get to the escalation stage. The date usually ended prior to that, and then escalation happened on a future date where I was able to seal the deal.

- Franco

Yeah I've never lost a girl who was down with getting naked. If they stop me it's usually when I'm getting my hands on their pussy. The ones that I don't close on the first date, I'm confident no one would close. Often the reason a guy fails to close is because he hasn't screened the girl hard enough to see if she's DTF before escalating.

I've contacted a few Tinder chicks that were down for see me after a failed escalation, but they weren't down for coming over for dinner, so I dropped them. If I were willing to put in the time and effort, it's probable that I'd get the lay, but for Tinder chicks with absolute abundance, it's not worth the effort.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

You guys have gotten Bboy to recognize that first date or working towards quick sex is the way to go. I noticed that no one mentioned another downside to the long term approach. The long term approach limits the number of girls you get to know. If you spend weeks or months trying to turn one girl into a GF then you have lost a lot of opportunities to meet other girls. How do you know which girl is the one you really want to be in a long term relationship with if you can't compare and contrast? Comparing sex is one issue but you do get to learn the personalities of many girls by making approaches, dating and bedding. An example is the girl I followed up the field report on today Gypsy. This girl is one I would have never approached in the past because of her funky looks. She has blue hair, lobe rings and partially very short hair. My preconceived notion would be she is a dumb hippy type. The truth is she is very intelligent and well read on current events. I actually find myself liking her personality. The point being is if you don't meet a lot of girls, how can you know who is girlfriend material for you? It is almost a bad as having a prearranged marriage.

BDSC

 

[Franco]

BDSC,

You guys have gotten Bboy to recognize that first date or working towards quick sex is the way to go. I noticed that no one mentioned another downside to the long term approach. The long term approach limits the number of girls you get to know.

Correct. As a matter of fact, the main reason we tell "newer" guys to move on is that they don't know when to give up. If you tell them, "hey, you can bed a girl on date 10!" then they'll try to take EVERY girl to a 10th date and bed her with very minimal results.

In that same amount of time, they could have tried to bed 5 or 6 other girls in three or less dates, and probably have gotten laid at least once. So it's not just a matter of "can it be done?" but also are you at a skill level yet where it's worth it to try it?

I go on multiple dates with women because I'm very aware of when I still have a chance of sleeping with them. But I wouldn't recommend this to guys who are still using their training wheels; that time is better spent meetings lots of women.

- Franco

 

[Kaelos]

I go on multiple dates with women because I'm very aware of when I still have a chance of sleeping with them. But I wouldn't recommend this to guys who are still using their training wheels; that time is better spent meetings lots of women.

What's the max number of dates you go on nowadays before moving on Franco?

Do you just stop all communication after that final date or do you send them a final message?

 

[Franco]

Kaelos,

What's the max number of dates you go on nowadays before moving on Franco?

When you get to a certain level of success, you no longer need "hard rules" about the number of dates, so I don't really have a maximum. I have a pretty good idea of when I have a chance with a girl and when I don't, so I just play it by feel.

But if you're trying to set some hard rules for yourself, then I'll mention that the most number of dates I've ever gone on with a girl that I cold approached and still managed to end up sleeping with was five.

Do you just stop all communication after that final date or do you send them a final message?

My date-to-close ratio is actually extremely high (as dates and closing are actually two of my strengths), so there haven't been many times that I've gone on dates with girls and had it not lead anywhere. With the girls that I felt were not that interested, I usually just never contacted them again.

A few times, the girls I dropped contact with ended up contacting me again, and if they did, I'd usually play it pretty aloof unless they actually suggested a meet-up themselves. If they did suggest another meet-up, and if I was still interested at that point, I would set up the logistics for it and make it happen because a lay becomes a lot more likely if they feel like they are having to chase you down for another meet-up.

- Franco

 

[Lawliet]

Bboy,

No, you do not need to get laid on the first date to get a GF. However, you maximize your odds of seeing a girl you like again by sleeping with her.

Isn't it the opposite?
If you move so fast with her and you have sex with her, she'll likely know it's a fling and you never end up seeing her again (she cuts you off to protect herself from getting hurt) as described in "How to Convert One-time lovers"

Also, your post coital is important for GF or lover.
Lover is one time (hence, you disqualify yourself you aren't a boyfriend. This is the whole point of lover!)
Boyfriend is consistent (you stick around, so she sets expectations on you!)

Think of it this way, if you aren't sticking around and you swept her off the floor on first date, she won't be able to sanction you because she doesn't expect to see you again.

However, as a boyfriend role, she knows you're sticking around. So, expectations arise.

 

[Sophisticated Gent]

Lawliet,

Think of it this way, if you aren't sticking around and you swept her off the floor on first date, she won't be able to sanction you because she doesn't expect to see you again.

However, as a boyfriend role, she knows you're sticking around. So, expectations arise.

Sorry but that is opposite of the way a woman's brain works. If you have sex with her she becomes invested in you. She wants to see you again and have sex with you again. If you don't have sex with her than she sees you as weak and not as provider material. When you have sex with her she goes into chase mode to get you to be her provider. The dynamics are complicated and there are articles and forums in here that go into details of the psychology of what goes on in the woman's psyche. But the simple fact is a woman's goal is to get the man as a provider. She will continue to try to make you a provider until she realizes it is futile or until something makes her question your value as a provider. From my personal experience I was not able to sustain a long term relationship with a girl that I did not have sex with on the first couple of dates.

BDSC