Any success stories of asking a girl late?

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NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Chicago, Illinois.
ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
ThePhoenix said:
I think the real reason you're so dead set on FB is because it makes it easier for you to find gang chicas.
Yep. I'm starting to realize now, that before the smartphone came around, the Internet was heavily White.

I had a feeling. See, I understand your thinking, because I was once like you on some level.
But confidence is a big turn on for me. It's hard to find confident White women. Just like it's hard to find confident women that show the most cleavage in public, without being afraid to.

ThePhoenix said:
Now, I don't know what you think about gang chicks but I can tell you that if you want to attract one, you are never going to, unless you, ironically, give up on them. For now.

You. Need. To. Get. Good. With. Women. First. Period.

NealIRC said:
While I don't compliment women or try not to, I do do anti-slut shame.

So with that girl, recall I said stuff like "I'd like to take you to da beach in the summer time, and whenever you get up to walk around, I can be 10-20 feet behind you, and tell you, which guys were staring at your ass, checking out your tits, etc."

This comes off poorly calibrated and forced. But at least you're trying.

Usually you don't get into real anti-slut-shaming until you're on a date. And it's not always even necessary. I've had girls quite willing to come home with me who I didn't do it on - at least consciously - at all. It's more of a negative-requirement than a positive-requirement, as in, it's not that you have to do something, it's that you have to make sure you don't do the opposite. You need to make sure your behaviour doesn't betray a conservative attitude.

If you actually are totally ok with women being promiscuous and sexually aggressive, you probably don't really need to think about doing this consciously. At least not that much. I actually think this shouldn't be a problem for you, being that you like gang chicks. Unless you're so totally off in your own little make-believe world that you don't even realize gang chicks are promiscuous!

I think the problem here is that you're trying to use anti-slut-shaming as a substitute for conveying interest and moving forwards, in the hopes that if she feels safe to be sexual, she'll somehow magically start pursuing you. That isn't going to happen.
And then I told her... "But you, are fuking, beautiful" (as to why I wanted to hire her as a model). She couldn't handle it, she had to immediately change the subject.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
And this was after I told her I wanted to hire her as a model.

Normally, I'd assume this was an obvious joke, but with you right now I can't be so sure. Actually trying to hire her would communicate one of two things:

  1. Your interest in her is actually purely business, in which case you're going to have a serious challenge in front of you when you get her in person, and one you certainly don't have the experience or social acuity to overcome, or

  1. Nah. If she keeps it as a business thing, that's fine with me. I'm not looking for sex. I'm looking for lust.

    I actually think a lot of Internet porn is done by uglier women.

    ThePhoenix said:
    [*]You are trying extremely hard to hide your intentions.
My intentions would be to have a girl be roommates with me.

Like 1 of the Batman Teen Titans cartoons, where Nightwing proposes to her to be roommates, opens up a box which has a key in it.

ThePhoenix said:
It also conveys a lack of confidence. Pussyfooting and beating around the bush when it comes to getting women into sexual situations is extremely unattractive to them. Males are supposed to be aggressive by nature, so if you're not actively trying to get what you want, you're going to be taken for weak and genetically inferior. Do yourself a favour and watch a nature show and look at how primate alpha males behave, in general but especially towards females.

Story:

At a place I used to work at there was a sexy West Indian girl, very tall, taller than me. She was the cocky and promiscuous type. Not a gang member but from what I heard I'm pretty sure a few thugs tapped that.

Anyway, I badly wanted to fuck her.

After quitting that job I had some mutual friends with her on Facebook so I tried to reach out.

Only, I was deeply paranoid of over-inflating her already huge ego, so I was very careful to not compliment her and not let her think I wanted her. I was so scared of her thinking she was above me that I even made fun of her. And I tried the same dumb shit you're trying, pretending to reach out to her for some business purpose.

She blocked me.

I deserved it, too.
Well, if you asked a 2nd time after she said no, I could see how you got blocked.

My situations are they don't block me, they just stop viewing my messages.

ThePhoenix said:
I showed a female friend what I had sent the girl. Normally I don't recommend listening to girls' dating advice, but this one was brutally honest and on point when she told me to stop pussyfooting with women.

My behaviour showed a complete lack of confidence and communicated that I didn't understand women and probably wouldn't know what to do with her if she did give it to me.

I should also note that I had also talked to the girl a few times in person a couple years earlier. I used some cocky banter. Even teased her a bit, but she took it very well, probably because there were non-verbal cues to both show her that I was just playing with her, and allowing me to calibrate to her needed level of value vs. attainability. I actually calibrated this somewhat well in spite of inexperience, because on some level, to at least some extent, human beings instinctively know how to deal with each other in person.

Pulling from online is a lot harder than in person. The same woman who was fairly friendly in person and even somewhat forgiving of mistakes was fucking ice cold on Facebook. Think about that carefully and ask yourself if maybe your focus is wrong.

In person, I had this girl to the point, briefly, where she'd give me a beaming smile when we'd meet eyes across the room. And this was a girl who woudn't hesitate to give you a look that would kill small animals if she didn't like you.

What I should have done at this point was to get a bit more friendly, show some interest in getting to know her, confidently show her I found her attractive, and move to get her out for coffee or something near my place or hers. I wish I had've done that.

Instead, I was, in my overly rigid mental model, so obsessed with not elevating her value over mine, and not showing any interest until she was all over me, that I just shut down completely, stopped talking to her, and downright avoided her for fear that too much idle interaction would get me friendzoned (which it probably would have.)

And what did I get for it? I got a chick who wouldn't even give me the time of day on Facebook.
Well, not my situation. My situation was, after she blocked me and I stopped overriding, she gave me another signal by stalking me, showing up in the college I attended, if I didn't already said.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
So you're basically saying you don't really attract women unless they have sex with you?

Strange.

Well, actually they do lose attraction pretty quickly if you don't make moves on them quickly.
Attraction, no, only the window to say yes.

I think what you say is true for women that don't know that you're a virgin, never been in a relationship, etc. So not my situation. By telling her all this, I'm letting her know I'm the underdog, not her.

ThePhoenix said:
But you're missing my point. I'm not saying they don't get attracted until sex has occurred. I'm saying that you at this point have no reliable means of judging whether or not a woman was attracted to you, other than whether or not she slept with you.
Nah. Cuz sometimes women can permanently leave a man after the 1st sex.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
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I told myself not to bother answering if you didn't listen, but this is becoming entertaining, so here goes nothing again. And Neal, I do hope you're getting some value out of this. Unfortunately, I think you're trapped in a rat wheel that my words will only make you spin faster, so this is probably my last post.

I'm going to begin by saying that you're demonstrating a remarkable lack of appreciation for the importance of sexual experience to attracting females. I can relate to this. I went through a long period where, in my little fairy-tale world I was living in, my own personal virtues trumped sexual experience. And everything else, for that matter. Finally realizing that women didn't work the way I was certain they did, was one of the hardest blows I have ever suffered in my entire life. But life is better on the other side. You won't make any progress until you accept it.

NealIRC said:
But confidence is a big turn on for me. It's hard to find confident White women. Just like it's hard to find confident women that show the most cleavage in public, without being afraid to.
Fuck, I love confidence too. I love cocky women. A female friend of mine lectured me against girls who wrote "mi pum pum tun up" (Jamaican for "my pussy is the shit") on their wall, and it came out the other ear before it even went in the one! So I can totally relate.

I never said you had to go for white women. With that said, you're probably stereotyping a bit here. You probably could find quite confident white women if you looked for them, though they might not show it the same way due to cultural differences. If you're not finidng any it's probably a case of confirmation bias. I can't really speak from much experience because white women are sometimes more physically attractive to me than men, but that's about it. (Read, I've never hit on one.)

Are you attracted to black women? I ask cuz I can tell you from experience that it's not at all hard to find really confident black women, especially from the West Indies, and this isn't restricted to ones in gangs. (I'm not sure I've even met a gang chick, and I live in an area where it's somewhat plausible.) Some do have a culturally-mediated complex over hair texture and skin tone, but other than that they often have very positive body image - shit, even a lot of the fat ones think they're hot stuff.

Now, really, while there may be some moderate culturally-mediated differences, if you're perceiving huge differences in the base psychological makeup of women based on "race" (I use that term loosely because it's scientifically dubious,) then you're just being ignorant. Yeah, I strongly prefer black women, but that's mainly based on looks, which is pretty much the only thing you can safely judge about a person based on race, because, yeah, that's how they look. LOL.

The reason I advise you to lay off gang chicks specifically, for now, is threefold:


  1. They're too small a percentage of the population. I cause myself enough problems from being mainly only attracted to black girls, who are about 9% of my city's girl population (prolly a lot higher in my immediate neighbourhood, though.) I don't force myself to talk to others because I'm probably just as generally stubborn a person as you. (I'm not joking when I say I understand you in a way most guys don't.) But females in Latin gangs? I'm guessing they'd be about 0.0003% of your city's girl pop, if even! Learning to be seductive requires lots of practice. You just can't afford to practice on a pool that's so small that just finding the damn girls you're going to practice on is a science project in of itself!

    I mean, my ideal girl is a confident, smart, crafty, extroverted, somewhat cocky, slim, fit, curvacious, very dark-skinned 5'11" black girl with high cheekbones and soft, flowing Nilotic facial features like you find in some South Sudanese women and who wears her hair in a twist-out or afro-puff, or afro but ideally not a TWA. (Phew.) But I talk to average height black girls, light-skinned black girls, black girls wearing (ugh) weave, shy black girls, black girls that are a little chunky... because I have to or else I won't learn jack shit about women because I won't have enough exposure. Not to mention, I'd risk blowing out the tiny fraction of the population that meets my above ideal criteria before I have adequately honed skills to get anywhere with that type. Which brings me to,


  2. Your type is going to be pretty much impossible for you to attract at this point in your life. The present you is not what they want. I don't mean you any offence at all, but seriously, you'd have to be living on another planet to think that a chick in a Latin gang is going to be sexually attracted to a socially awkward nerd with no sense of style and who has never ever had sex with a woman. It's laughable. These girls are used to having their pussies torn up by highly dominant (thus sexually attractive) ruffians that are probably in and out of jail and kill people on the drop of a dime!

    If you don't believe me, go find the toughest Latino guy that'll even talk to you and ask him if he thinks a gang chick would like to fuck a virgin. Actually, maybe you shouldn't do that. He might try to sell you her services! (Actually, maybe you should....)

    I'm not saying that you'll never be able to attract them. If you work really hard, and smart at bettering your social skill set, you may well be able to eventually. Without killing people. But you see on this board where when you make a post there's a monkey lit up? On your posts, that will have to be the dude with the spear that's lit up.


  3. It's fucking dangerous. Remember what I said above about the guys you're competing with? They kill people. Finding and bedding gang chicks in relative safety would require you to be incredibly good at reading people and social situations. This is something you will get better at if you're seducing lots of women, but your present naivety is liable to get you pummeled or worse.

But tell me, are you attracted to Latina women who aren't gang members?

If so, do you know Spanish? Can you dance merengue or salsa? If not, I'd highly recommend taking classes. It's fun, gets you more social and meeting friends and girls in an easier setting. It could also give you some rapport with the girls you like, provided it's not forced.

I was in a Latin American country a little while ago. I only had a couple semesters of Spanish from way back when, so I was stumbling badly, but at least I was trying, whereas my buddy I was with didn't know the language at all, and more importantly had no interest in learning it. Guess which one of us had way more rapport with the local girls, even the ones that knew English. Very good! If Latinas were my main thing, I'd know Spanish fluently, no question about it.

Myself, I've substantially involved myself in the Caribbean cultural events and groups in my city. (A significant fraction of our black population here is Caribbean.) This has enriched my life immensely.

Girls of other cultures really appreciate it when you demonstrate a genuine appreciation of their culture. Shit, I had a cute, sexy-ass Bajan gyal who favours Rihanna on my dick hard because I was the first white guy she'd ever met who could actually wine. LOL. Well, that's what she said... confidence had a lot to do with it, too - and having no qualms about showing her what I wanted. (In case you don't get out enough, wining is a Caribbean dance that may as well be sex with your clothes on - see 0:50 here.) She was quite aggressive in making sure we traded contacts.

Participating in these sorts of things is fun, you meet a ton of people, which gets you social and making friends. You get to learn about other cultures, which for me at least is fascinating. And it's golden if your type of woman is a minority, both because you get more of them in one place, but also because they're a lot warmer to you.

Another benefit I've personally reaped due to the extent of my involvement is some pretty good connections. All because of the people I had made friends with, I've managed to find myself in all kinds of beneficial situations.

One time I got unlimited access to a venue a large concert was being held at and chilled with several huge soca artistes during sound checks. Just being in the backstage areas where there was no public access gave me social proof that emboldened me to chat up some of the beautiful West Indian models who were on stage that day, and ended up getting one out for a date. Talk about confidence... that girl was shaking her fit, curvy body in front of over 5000 people wearing nothing but a few patches of feathers over her crotch, knees and elbows, feather headpiece and wings, and a skimpy little wire bra with some beads on it.

Now, I don't know, but just going by your posts, it seems you're obsessed with some of the more negative aspects of the Hispanic community. If so, realize that many people are going to find that offensive. That would be like me having an insatiable fascination with drive-by shootings in black neighborhoods. I wouldn't have a fraction of the social opportunity with black women I do right now. I'd probably be alienating 99.9% of the women I'd want to sleep with. Talk about stupid.

NealIRC said:
And then I told her... "But you, are fuking, beautiful" (as to why I wanted to hire her as a model).
Well, at least you're not afraid to try complimenting women. That's good. Mind you, putting it in the context of hiring her has caveats I've already mentioned.

NealIRC said:
She couldn't handle it, she had to immediately change the subject.
Her changing the subject, doesn't sound good to me; I've never had anything good come out of that. You should have been the one defusing the tension. I could be wrong but my gut feeling is that she doesn't like you looking at her sexually. You have probably come across as unattractive, for a variety of reasons that you could study and learn to fix via this site.

NealIRC said:
Nah. If she keeps it as a business thing, that's fine with me. I'm not looking for sex. I'm looking for lust.

...

My intentions would be to have a girl be roommates with me.
Man.

I do think one of the prior posters who indicated you need a type of help we can't give you, may have unfortunately been right.

Lust is nature's mechanism for inducing sex. It is natural for the one to lead to the other. You seem to have a disconnect somewhere and this isn't natural. You want an (I assume) mutual desire for sex but you do not want sex. You want to be eternally stuck at some incomplete step of the human mating process. Frankly, this puts me at a loss.

I have to believe this isn't what you really want, and it is instead some sort of mechanism for coping with some mental hang-up involving sex.

I know this isn't exactly the same thing as what you're talking about, (as I'm sure you'll point out,) but since I'm here spilling a quarter of my life story anyway (not really, but,) I may as well share the closest thing I did go through.

I one-upped you. You wanted desire and no sex. I didn't even want desire.

I went through much of adolescence with this phenomenally dumb idea that I wanted to be asexual. That isn't to say I was. Not like some people who actually do not feel any sexual attraction. I did feel the normal attractions, I just consciously didn't want to.

In fact, I was so convinced my theories were right that I had invented pejorative terms for people who weren't asexual. Fortunately, I used these on few enough of them to evade becoming extremely unpopular!

And no, it wasn't for the reason commonly given in mens' forums; I was far too young to have gotten butthurt.

This post is already too long to get into the reasons, but suffice it to say, they were probably just as bizarre, deluded and asinine as the reasons you'd give me if I asked why you want to be stuck at a stage of the mating process.

Suffice it to say, it led to some.... confusion. There was a girl in my junior class I "liked," but I was tremendously apprehensive about her gender not having been accidental. The next year after we had gone off to high school, I got the nerve to call her, but in order to justify doing this I had to call just about every other classmate, male and female, from the same class! In talking to her I monitored myself very carefully to ensure I wasn't saying anything that wouldn't have been reasonable to say to a guy without being gay. I'm sure she.... appreciated this.

(Feel free to laugh at me, as long as it helps you see how ridiculous your proposition is, too.)

Eventually, a certain east African girl I was often in close association with managed to jolt me back to my senses. (I suspect she had a huge effect on my preferences, too.) I'm glad she did, because if nobody had've, I'd have probably sooner or later ended up in a mental institution, or maybe on the 6 o'clock news in some less-than-stellar role.

You may need some kind of jolt, but I can't tell you what it is. Sadly, you will most likely not even realize that you need it until after it's finally happened. For all intents and purposes, I am probably just talking to myself here.

NealIRC said:
I actually think a lot of Internet porn is done by uglier women.
Let me ask you, and you don't need to answer but do think about it: do you get off to Internet porn a lot?

I cannot personally relate to this, because porn has never even appealed to me so I never have, but I have a close friend who suffered from debilitating porn addiction, so I can certainly vouch for it being a real thing. His habit interfered in our business pursuits and he even attended a support group in person.

I see references being bandied about to a site titled "Your Brain On Porn." I can't vouch for how useful or true the content is, but if you do a search on this site or put up a separate question you might get some good information. I also see talk about "rebooting."

So the story goes, the mental super-stimulation from Internet porn fucks with neurochemical pathways and over time alters sexual perceptions and sensitivity. This is about the best possible explanation I can think of for why you might desire desire itself yet not desire sex. Or insist that nudity and masturbation are just as good. Just a thought.

NealIRC said:
Like 1 of the Batman Teen Titans cartoons, where Nightwing proposes to her to be roommates, opens up a box which has a key in it.
Or maybe you just need to get out more!

NealIRC said:
Well, if you asked a 2nd time after she said no, I could see how you got blocked.
I didn't ask her more than once. Facebook was the first time I pursued anything. In person it was only some flirting/banter and then I intentionally stayed away from her without having ever asked her out, unfortunately.

NealIRC said:
My situations are they don't block me, they just stop viewing my messages.

ThePhoenix said:
Well, not my situation.
Neal, you're making a micro-level literal comparison and missing/ignoring my point. My point was to illustrate some parallels; in particular:

  • Defective mental model making us believe we should not show interest;
  • Generally poor understanding of women due to inexperience, perpetuating that model; and
  • Effective rapport being hindered by the lack of non-verbals in online game vs. talking to girls in person.

NealIRC said:
she gave me another signal by stalking me, showing up in the college I attended, if I didn't already said.
Yes, I saw that part. I have great trouble believing this gang chick's presence at your college wasn't one of either:

  1. utter coincidence; see Chase's earlier post in this thread where he discusses "overestimation of influence;" or
  2. you having, in your obsession over this girl, actually chosen the college to attend based on a probability of finding her and/or her friends there.

NealIRC said:
ThePhoenix said:
Well, actually they do lose attraction pretty quickly if you don't make moves on them quickly.
Attraction, no, only the window to say yes.
For a virgin who has never so much as taken a girl on a date, you have a lot of insight about the exact timing of attraction! (I'm being sarcastic.)

NealIRC said:
I think what you say is true for women that don't know that you're a virgin, never been in a relationship, etc. So not my situation. By telling her all this, I'm letting her know I'm the underdog, not her.
Holy Mother of God. Is this a joke?? Do you mean to tell me that you believe virginity actually somehow helps your game!?

I think you're confusing women for men. It's MEN who like their sex partners to be virgins (well, some, not me...) Women are dead opposite. They are looking for virility. A man who can sweep them off their feet. A man who knows how to get them pregnant as fast as possible so that their sons will have the same skill and spread their genes far and wide. Innocence and sexual naïvety are liabilities to a man's attractiveness to women.

Underdog!? She doesn't want an underdog!! How the hell is an underdog going to give her stronger offspring!? You do realize that females are biologically programmed to mate with the males that give them the most fit offspring, right?

Male virginity is a signal of "negative preselection." It basically tells a girl that no other girl has ever wanted you. (Either that, or you didn't know what to do when she did.) Can you not see how many red flags this puts up for her, especially at your age?

Start a thread on here entitled "Do women prefer virgins?" Either you get no answers because nobody even takes you seriously, or you'll get a resounding "NO!" from just about any human being in possession of a penis (and probably the truthful 70% of those without, with the other 30% trying to spare your feelings.)

I am going to tell you from first-hand experience (I think I told you before but you need it again.) I have lost pussy to virginity on multiple occasions. In one particular case, I know this for a fact because it came out the girl's own mouth!

I had it bad for a certain cocky ghetto chick. You know, the one who breaks her Nikes on purpose before the tread wears so she can send them back to the factory for new ones? The one who hangs out with the rough dudes that pull knives on people? Probably not all that different from the girls you daydream about. (Smart though.. she eventually got herself quite well off.)

Well, we had a lot of mutual friends, and one of them was closer to me than she realized, so she slipped up one day when they were chatting by the ball court, and she got ratted. This was years ago so I don't recall the exact conversation, but the gist of it was:

Him: You know Phoenix likes you, right?

Her: Haha, ya I know.

Him: You don't like him back?

Her: Not like that!

Him: Why not? He's a good guy.

Her: Ya, I know.... but...

Him: What? He's white?

Her: Nah, it's not even that.

Him: So?

Her: Man, he's prolly never even been with a girl! (I hadn't been dumb enough to tell her, but she sensed it.)

Him: So? He has to start somewhere.

Her: NOT ON ME!!!
There you have it. Right out of a girl's mouth. I hope you feel dumb now for having admitted virginity to some chick that gets gang-banged every Saturday night.

NealIRC said:
Nah. Cuz sometimes women can permanently leave a man after the 1st sex.
I honestly think you're just looking for any reason you can to not accept what I'm trying to show you. But I'll take this up anyway. Maybe you're in denial because of how painful it might be if I'm right.

Yes. Women might lose attraction for you at any point in a relationship including after sex. Or they may even have other reasons to quit. But that doesn't change the fact that a woman agreeing to sex with you even once is a huge deal for her. If you think it's not, I charge you to go up to some random attractive woman on the street tomorrow, and say, "Let's go have sex. Don't worry, it'll only be once. You don't have to like me after that."

Go through this board and look at all the times a guy has gotten a girl home, gotten close to sex for the first time, but then something killed it... and then getting the girl back to that same point is damn near impossible, to the point it often never happens. On the other hand, you're going to find that a one-night-stand turned FWB or fuck buddy is pretty common. Read the boards more. Or heck, ask guy friends who aren't virgins (I do hope you have some.) More often than not, if sex has already occurred, it's the guy who doesn't want the relationship to continue.

There are scientific reasons for this.

Firstly, from an instinctive point of view, sex is an extremely big deal for a woman. A woman's instincts are not derived from modern-day life where the consequences of casual sex are minimal. They are derived from the prehistoric world in which having sex with a male even once carries a very high chance of pregnancy and the resulting nine months of vulnerability due to impaired mobility and dietary requirements, as well as often over a year of not being able to be impregnated by a different male with better genes.

Another aspect is the Sexy Son Hypothesis, which says that females are going to strongly prefer males who have an easy time mating with them, since, if this ease is genetically-mediated, doing so is likely to increase the number of grandchildren she will have because her male children will in turn be likely to get more females pregnant with her genes. Therefore, a male who gets sex with her fast is likely to become more attractive to her for this reason alone. Conversely, if a female perceives that a male tried and failed to mate with her, she will quickly lose attraction for him because he is a genetic liability.

You have to appreciate that, to the female brain, SEX IS A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH. So, yes, if a woman even once accepts your penis inside of her, IT'S A FUCKING BIG DEAL.

So, Neal. You have a choice. You can pay attention to the things I and others have told you, or you can go on the rest of your life not understanding women, not attracting women, not having them lust after you no matter how much you think they are or will, and not enjoying life the way you could be. I know the place you're in, and I also know that if you could see that place with the benefit of hindsight, you wouldn't want to stay in it.
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
Here's something you said 2 posts ago:

But you're missing my point. I'm not saying they don't get attracted until sex has occurred. I'm saying that you at this point have no reliable means of judging whether or not a woman was attracted to you, other than whether or not she slept with you.
Not that this is implied, but I don't think sex is the 1 tough climax to get from a woman. I think the 1 tough climax to get from a woman, is her sending nudes. I think women more easily sex than sending nudes, since sending nudes can be used against her.

ThePhoenix said:
confident women
By confident women, there's several definitions/examples here. White women are often afraid to be catcalled, or hit on, by Hispanic/Black men, but particularly living in Hispanic/Black areas. That's the turn off for me.

ThePhoenix said:
Your type is going to be pretty much impossible for you to attract at this point in your life. The present you is not what they want. I don't mean you any offence at all, but seriously, you'd have to be living on another planet to think that a chick in a Latin gang is going to be sexually attracted to a socially awkward nerd with no sense of style and who has never ever had sex with a woman. It's laughable. These girls are used to having their pussies torn up by highly dominant (thus sexually attractive) ruffians that are probably in and out of jail and kill people on the drop of a dime!

If you don't believe me, go find the toughest Latino guy that'll even talk to you and ask him if he thinks a gang chick would like to fuck a virgin. Actually, maybe you shouldn't do that. He might try to sell you her services! (Actually, maybe you should....)

I'm not saying that you'll never be able to attract them. If you work really hard, and smart at bettering your social skill set, you may well be able to eventually. Without killing people. But you see on this board where when you make a post there's a monkey lit up? On your posts, that will have to be the dude with the spear that's lit up.
-But I'm not competing with Hispanic gangs by trying to be a Hispanic gang. I'm competing with them by trying to be a White guy.

-Think about it this way. "He's a virgin? Well, that means when he has 1st sex, it's gonna be me! He not gonna be thinking about someone else."

ThePhoenix said:
[*]
It's fucking dangerous. Remember what I said above about the guys you're competing with? They kill people. Finding and bedding gang chicks in relative safety would require you to be incredibly good at reading people and social situations. This is something you will get better at if you're seducing lots of women, but your present naivety is liable to get you pummeled or worse.[/list]
This might be more true of California gangs than Chicago gangs. Chicago gangs generally don't do much to non-gang members. And Chicago women in gangs are allowed to date outsiders.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
Nah. If she keeps it as a business thing, that's fine with me. I'm not looking for sex. I'm looking for lust.

...

My intentions would be to have a girl be roommates with me.
Man.

I do think one of the prior posters who indicated you need a type of help we can't give you, may have unfortunately been right.

Lust is nature's mechanism for inducing sex. It is natural for the one to lead to the other. You seem to have a disconnect somewhere and this isn't natural. You want an (I assume) mutual desire for sex but you do not want sex. You want to be eternally stuck at some incomplete step of the human mating process. Frankly, this puts me at a loss.

I have to believe this isn't what you really want, and it is instead some sort of mechanism for coping with some mental hang-up involving sex.
Nah. When a man is horny, you can jus get toilet paper, tissue, knapkin, or Kleenex, stick it in your underwear, wrap it around the penis, and ejaculate it out. Don't need a vagina.

Sex is only a turn on for me if she is naked. Then the nudity part is itself more of a turn on. If a girl were fully clothed, and she just unzipped her jean pants just so I can stick the dick in, and ejaculate, that's no turn on. It's just like self-ejaculation.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
I actually think a lot of Internet porn is done by uglier women.
Let me ask you, and you don't need to answer but do think about it: do you get off to Internet porn a lot?
Does porn fascinate me? Believe it or not the location of the pic has a lot to do with it now. If it's just a girl naked on her bed, no big deal. Not nearly as compared to being on the rooftop of a tall building, or outdoors in a public place.

When I was 13, all kinds of porn could turn me on, but now, pregnant porn kind of only turns me on. Especially if done in a public place.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
she gave me another signal by stalking me, showing up in the college I attended, if I didn't already said.
Yes, I saw that part. I have great trouble believing this gang chick's presence at your college wasn't one of either:

  1. utter coincidence; see Chase's earlier post in this thread where he discusses "overestimation of influence;" or
  2. you having, in your obsession over this girl, actually chosen the college to attend based on a probability of finding her and/or her friends there.
And of course, she wants to make it look like I'm the 1 rejecting her, not the other way around. She already knew I attended there. Semester ends next week, and the only 2 times I saw her was the 1st week of school, go figure.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
Holy Mother of God. Is this a joke?? Do you mean to tell me that you believe virginity actually somehow helps your game!?
No, I'm just testing her. Testing to see if she likes me for what I am. Women do this to men all the time.

For women where sex isn't a big deal to them, then virginity isn't a big deal to them.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
305
I'm told I have the patience of a saint...

NealIRC said:
Not that this is implied, but I don't think sex is the 1 tough climax to get from a woman. I think the 1 tough climax to get from a woman, is her sending nudes. I think women more easily sex than sending nudes, since sending nudes can be used against her.
Your versatility in arriving at new excuses never ceases to amaze me. I don't think I could do better myself! :p

For most women, getting them to sign their bank account over to you would be harder than either getting sex or getting nudes. That doesn't mean that just because a woman does sign her money to you that she's necessarily attracted to you sexually.

I agree that getting nudes could be harder with many women, but that's more about trust than attraction; the two are not the same! In my last post I tried to get you to see that sex carries a very instinctive significance for women.

This reminds me of something I saw a while back while doing some research on tribes in the Greater Upper Nile. In some of those tribes (at least until pretty recently,) the women don't bother to cover their genitals at all. Even let journalists photograph them like that. Exposing genitals means nothing to them. Keeping our bodies "private" isn't something innate, it's only a cultural artefact of our society.

But do me a favour and fly over there and see if you can just walk up to one of those tribe women and get it on with her. Unless you really know what you're doing, you're going to wind up with a spear up your ass! (Ok, I'm joking about the spear... sort of.)

NealIRC said:
By confident women, there's several definitions/examples here. White women are often afraid to be catcalled, or hit on, by Hispanic/Black men, but particularly living in Hispanic/Black areas. That's the turn off for me.
I see what you're saying, but again, it's not by any means universal. There's white girls that live for being hit on by black men; they usually wear braids or cornrows, lol. Also, you may be conflating lack of confidence with racism.

But again, I'm not telling you to go after white women; did you pay attention to the things I wrote about other women? Have you tried approaching non-gang Hispanic or black women?

NealIRC said:
-But I'm not competing with Hispanic gangs by trying to be a Hispanic gang. I'm competing with them by trying to be a White guy.
You're missing the point here. The point is that your competition have qualities that make them inherently very attractive to women. That makes your job more difficult with gang women because they have come to expect extreme masculinity. They're actually surrounded by the type of man that other women fantasize about even though they wouldn't go anywhere near them. How do you plan to compete against that?

It's not about Hispanic vs. white. It's about sexiness. The highly dominant white man who knows just how to turn a woman on and carries an aura of sexual threat is playing in a completely different league than the socially inept virginal white guy who wouldn't know how to turn on a girl if there was a button on her forehead. The first white guy I decribed would stand a decent chance of bedding a gang chica. The second white guy does not.

At the moment, you're the second guy. If you want to ever become the first guy, you are going to need to gain experience that gang chicks are, overwhelmingly, not going to be willing to give you.

NealIRC said:
-Think about it this way. "He's a virgin? Well, that means when he has 1st sex, it's gonna be me! He not gonna be thinking about someone else."
I wish you could appreciate how ridiculous that sounds to someone who has had his clothes literally torn off to the point of them being damaged by a pair of sexy girls who knew damn well he was after another girl.

I think your thinking here is polluted by pervasive misconceptions that are perpetuated by mainstream media, which extol monogamy, for instance. Women are a lot more accepting of polygamy than you realize. While it's true that part of them wants to conquer the wild alpha male and keep him to herself, they are patently not attracted to the male who is already conquered. This is one of the reasons that marriages so often fail. Women are more attracted to men they can't control.

If you want a scientific explanation for it, I suspect it comes back down to the sexy son hypothesis I mentioned in prior posts. Polygamous males are more attractive because their tendencies if expressed in the next generation will spread the woman's genes farther.

I know this is a difficult thing to understand given the way that society programs us to think. I screwed myself up bigtime by buying into the lovey-dovey soulmate bullshit for years.

NealIRC said:
This might be more true of California gangs than Chicago gangs. Chicago gangs generally don't do much to non-gang members. And Chicago women in gangs are allowed to date outsiders.
I'm no expert on Chicago gangs, but I wouldn't discount the possibility of violent confrontaton, especially if you scare one of the girls stalking her, or somehow manage to pull one whose BF is in the gang.

That aside, I think you're ignoring the fact that these girls are such a remarkably small percentage of the population that you don't have enough room to gain crucial early experience. You'll be screwing up a lot, so you need to be able to burn through a lot of approach opportunities.

NealIRC said:
Nah. When a man is horny, you can jus get toilet paper, tissue, knapkin, or Kleenex, stick it in your underwear, wrap it around the penis, and ejaculate it out. Don't need a vagina.

Sex is only a turn on for me if she is naked. Then the nudity part is itself more of a turn on. If a girl were fully clothed, and she just unzipped her jean pants just so I can stick the dick in, and ejaculate, that's no turn on. It's just like self-ejaculation.
There's a world of difference, which you can't see possibly because of your perception being damaged by porn. Although the physical sensation of climax is at best roughly similar, there are psychological factors that will normally lead to the real thing being a much more potent and fulfilling experience.

First of all, for a guy, there is the "thrill of the chase" and the satisfaction of being rewarded at the end. (For girls, I think, there is a thrill in being pursued and in finally surrendering.)

Giving another person sexual pleasure also heightens one's own pleasure. Even just the moans a girl will often make are extremely arousing. I can tell you from personal experience that those moans are incredibly more powerful emotionally when it's your own penis causing them vs. some dumb recording.

All the suggestive body language, gradually escalating foreplay, touching, smelling, kissing, licking, ass-smacking, hair pulling etc. greatly amplifies the experience. You can try to do and imagine these things yourself and it may work to some limited degree, but it's like the difference between watching a movie on a 1940's 16" black and white TV set vs. watching it in an IMAX theater. I can't stress enough how much difference another human being makes!

Many of the studies that point to health benefits of sex show less or no benefit to masturbation, so there is certainly a real difference between the two on many levels.

But anyway, just how the hell do you know whether masturbation is as good as sex? You have no basis for comparison unless you have experienced both.

Also, there is no precedent in nature for strictly preferring masturbation over real sex; any species showing such a preference would become extinct.

NealIRC said:
When I was 13, all kinds of porn could turn me on, but now, pregnant porn kind of only turns me on. Especially if done in a public place.
This very much sounds like my friend who struggled with porn addiction. The addict progressively requires ever-increasing levels of novelty in order to achieve arousal. It's a vicious cycle. And this definitely sounds like it is related to your abnormal disinterest in real sex.

You probably won't appreciate this but you may need professional help, or at the very least carefully following existing advice for breaking a porn addiction.

NealIRC said:
And of course, she wants to make it look like I'm the 1 rejecting her, not the other way around.
You remind me of my dad.

Bev and Leah are among the women he associates with extensively but isn't in a sexual relationship with. Sometimes Bev will fail to return his calls, or will do some other minor thing that he perceives as her being cross.

Somehow, Bev always magically does these things after he has spent time with Leah. I doubt this is always the case, but with a heavy dose of confirmation bias, he seems to think so. In his little make-believe world, Bev ignores him on purpose out of jealousy because she knows he's been spending time with Leah - even though the two of them don't know each other apart from a very brief meeting due to him, and don't share any of the same social circles at all.

In reality, they've both totally friendzoned him, could probably care less what he does with the other, and probably don't even have each other's contact info, let alone talk. If anything, if they actually were romantically interested in him, his paying attention to Leah would only make Bev try harder! But try telling him any of this.

Moreover, without even knowing you or her, I know pretty much as fact that your interpretation of her motives is completely wrong. How do I know this? It's a simple matter of the social dynamics of mating.

No woman in her right mind would want it to look like you rejected her! Rejection is a liability; it is an attack on her value as a woman and gives her negative preselection - if you rejected her, other men may steer clear of her because your action paints her as being less desirable. There is no way in hell a person (male or female) would want to look like they got rejected!

Social status is very important to a woman. Rejecting men raises her status, whereas being rejected by men lowers it. That's why we always hear about women going into "auto-rejection" - she senses that you're about to reject her, so she rejects you instead to protect her ego and social status.

NealIRC said:
ThePhoenix said:
Holy Mother of God. Is this a joke?? Do you mean to tell me that you believe virginity actually somehow helps your game!?
No, I'm just testing her. Testing to see if she likes me for what I am. Women do this to men all the time.
Whew, you had me worried for a sec. Ok, well, testing and screening are useful tools, but I think your approach here is wrong.

You can test a girl for compliance. That is, you can try to get her to do some small thing and see if she goes along with it. You want her to follow your lead and do what you ask of her. (By contrast, a woman typically does not actually want you to do what she is pressuring you to do, which would indicate weakness.)

As for screening, if you're trying to screen for girls that will like you being a virgin, good luck with that. I already showed you in depth how and why they almost universally dislike male virginity.

Here you may be falling into a "she should like me as I am" fallacy. This is very common but remarkably bad thinking. Only the lowest quality women will settle for a man who is not striving to better himself. Why should she?

NealIRC said:
For women where sex isn't a big deal to them, then virginity isn't a big deal to them.
That's a bad assumption.

Women who are promiscuous or sexually liberated are liable to have as high if not higher expectations of a man's sexual prowess than innocent, virginal girls. A woman who is not afraid of sex has had enough lovers to fully appreciate how experienced, sexually confident men make her feel vs. virginal guys who have no sense of how to turn a girl on.

If you're just using this as a means of screening which women are more sexually open, you really want to find some other way to do that (check through this site,) because the method you propose (admitting virginity) is definitely going to backfire the vast majority of the time. Better yet, why not just assume they're open? That can be a powerful assumption and, if you're good, most often proves correct.
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
ThePhoenix said:
I'm told I have the patience of a saint...For most women, getting them to sign their bank account over to you would be harder than either getting sex or getting nudes. That doesn't mean that just because a woman does sign her money to you that she's necessarily attracted to you sexually.
And do women ever frequently sign their bank accounts to men who have less money than they?

Damn if they do.

Most of the girls I'm into, are cash-only. If I wrote them a check, they would have to go to a MoneyGram, Currency Exchange, or some place to cash the check.

But yes, my Dad has been married 6 times - 1 white, 1 Pacific Island, and 4 Asians, and he had money than all of them of course.

ThePhoenix said:
You're missing the point here. The point is that your competition have qualities that make them inherently very attractive to women. That makes your job more difficult with gang women because they have come to expect extreme masculinity. They're actually surrounded by the type of man that other women fantasize about even though they wouldn't go anywhere near them. How do you plan to compete against that?

It's not about Hispanic vs. white. It's about sexiness. The highly dominant white man who knows just how to turn a woman on and carries an aura of sexual threat is playing in a completely different league than the socially inept virginal white guy who wouldn't know how to turn on a girl if there was a button on her forehead.
That's fine, but I mean, aren't I looking to get into the female friend-zone also? That is also a privilege for me.

ThePhoenix said:
Women are more attracted to men they can't control.
Yea, and I bet women are also turned off by boring relationships.

ThePhoenix said:
If you want a scientific explanation for it, I suspect it comes back down to the sexy son hypothesis I mentioned in prior posts. Polygamous males are more attractive because their tendencies if expressed in the next generation will spread the woman's genes farther.
That makes no sense. Women, as being attracted to their sons to be more polygamous, than if their sons were a single-woman lover?

Are mothers turned on by the thought of their sons fucking lots of women, and losing their virginity, at any early age?

ThePhoenix said:
You probably won't appreciate this but you may need professional help, or at the very least carefully following existing advice for breaking a porn addiction.
Yea, see a therapist? And what majors are therapists? Counselor education? So if you study counselor education, you have all the answers? To be a therapist, that is.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
And of course, she wants to make it look like I'm the 1 rejecting her, not the other way around.
You remind me of my dad.

[...]

No woman in her right mind would want it to look like you rejected her! Rejection is a liability; it is an attack on her value as a woman and gives her negative preselection - if you rejected her, other men may steer clear of her because your action paints her as being less desirable. There is no way in hell a person (male or female) would want to look like they got rejected!
Yes, however, our crap is being discrete. So it isn't known. If she still wants me, then she wants it to look like I'm the 1 rejecting her. Otherwise, she wouldn't care to.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
For women where sex isn't a big deal to them, then virginity isn't a big deal to them.
That's a bad assumption.
By that I mean, women who take sex very seriously, are less inclined to care about a man's virginity. Whereas women who have sex left and right, probably do.

ThePhoenix said:
Women who are promiscuous or sexually liberated are liable to have as high if not higher expectations of a man's sexual prowess than innocent, virginal girls. A woman who is not afraid of sex has had enough lovers to fully appreciate how experienced, sexually confident men make her feel vs. virginal guys who have no sense of how to turn a girl on.
Right, an experienced woman fucking a virgin guy to give him experience, is 1 that isn't having sex to receive, but to give.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
305
NealIRC said:
Yea, see a therapist? And what majors are therapists? Counselor education? So if you study counselor education, you have all the answers? To be a therapist, that is.
Lol. I appreciate what you're saying. It's not like they're magicians, and to be honest I don't know how much good they're able to do. With that said, at least the really good ones are probably better equipped than the average Joe. Some people benefit from medication, although again it's not a magic pill - I think the science is still pretty barbaric; I know some people who have benefitted and others where I'm not so sure.

But I do really suspect porn is causing you some serious problems and at the very least you owe it to yourself to do your own research on the subject of porn addiction and read about the experiences of others that have overcome it and what they did to do so. I wish I could give you more concrete advice on that subject but unlike some of your other issues, that's not something I've dealt with personally. I'd say first step is try going 4 months with zero porn; if you can't do that, at least you know it's a real problem. If you can (and do) do it easily, you probably weren't addicted after all.

NealIRC said:
And do women ever frequently sign their bank accounts to men who have less money than they?
You're reading too much into the example. I was basically just trying to illustrate that how difficult it is to get a woman to do something doesn't necessarily translate to how good it is as evidence of sexual attraction.

I'll say it again, the only real proof of sexual attraction is sex. That's not rocket science.

NealIRC said:
That's fine, but I mean, aren't I looking to get into the female friend-zone also? That is also a privilege for me.
Now you're all over the place. You said a couple posts ago that you want "lust." People in the friend-zone don't get lust.

Anyway, if you really feel privileged to get friend-zoned then you need to set your sights higher. FWB is just so much more fun for all parties involved! Basically the only female friends I have are either because I wasn't attracted to them or because I screwed up and didn't attract them, but came to value their friendship more than the extremely uphill battle of un-friend-zoning myself. Or else they're from social circle, most of whom I've kept in the periphery somewhat on purpose if they're cute, lol.

Unless you seriously have no female friends at all. Then it may be worth making a few, but you need to be really honest with yourself about your desires and intentions. They're not all that hard to make unless you're seriously bad socially; I almost think it's easier than making guy friends, lol.

NealIRC said:
Yea, and I bet women are also turned off by boring relationships.
No arguments there!

NealIRC said:
That makes no sense. Women, as being attracted to their sons to be more polygamous, than if their sons were a single-woman lover?

Are mothers turned on by the thought of their sons fucking lots of women, and losing their virginity, at any early age?
Yes! Absolutely! Well, not by the thought of it, but by the cause of it.

Now, they're not going to admit that! In fact, few if any of them probably even realize it!

One thing that you have to understand about human sexuality - and this is really crucial, or you just won't get it at all - is that most of our sexual behaviour and preference is based on instinct, and not on any sort of conscious thought.

By and large, women have no idea why they are or are not attracted to particular men. Sure, they can sometimes pick out particular things that they realize they like, but even then, they don't know why. This is one of the reasons that getting dating advice from women is such a bad idea.

It's basically the same for men, too. I'm very attracted to African women, but I can't really tell you why. Sure, I can come up with theories. For example, maybe my brain is doing that for the sake of genetic diversity. But in trying to explain it, I'm doing so with precisely the same level of introspection as an alien who has come to study my species. I can't read my mind any better than the alien could. (Maybe the alien could better!)

It's not like the process goes:

see cute African woman -> think to self "hmm, she looks like she might have different genes than mine and I remember reading a Wikipedia article about hybrid vigor and how that can increase the fitness of the offspring, so I guess I should be sexually attracted to her" -> chubby

HAHAHAHA, no, that's not what happens. More like:

see cute African woman -> chubby

So, no, don't expect a woman to consciously realize that she's genetically programmed to prefer having promiscuous sons. But does it make biological sense? Absolutely!

If her son is a single-woman lover, that means that the number of children he will have in his lifetime will be constrained to the number of children that one woman can have in her lifetime. That number is probably hovering around 10 to 20. (In modern society, they don't have so many, but we're talking nature here.) And that's best-case, because if he's that non-dominant, some of those children might not even be his, oweing to extra-pair copulation.

On the other hand, if her son is promiscuous, he could have thousands of children!! (DNA testing and child support laws are not relevant to a discussion of human nature, because it takes tens of thousands of years for genetic drift to remove traits unless there is strong selective pressure against them, which is not the case here because polygamy carries essentially no reproductive disadvantage.)

So now we just have to prove that a woman should, biologically speaking, prefer thousands of grandchildren over 10 to 20. That's not hard. Those thousands of children all carry her genes. Genes which, when expressed in a female, prefer a polygamous male. The female who preferred the monogamous male will have had her genes outnumbered 400:1. At that rate, it doesn't take long (speaking in evolutionary time) for the gene pool to become very heavily dominated by genes which program females to be attracted to polygamous males.

Does it make sense now?

NealIRC said:
Yes, however, our crap is being discrete. So it isn't known. If she still wants me, then she wants it to look like I'm the 1 rejecting her. Otherwise, she wouldn't care to.
You're reading way too much into her behaviour.

But look, if you think she wants you, ask her out for a drink. If you're right, then she'll be happy to accept. If not, either she's lost attraction for you, or way more likely never felt it in the first place. Just make sure it's somewhere with a lot of witnesses, in case she plays along to get you draped up by her gang buddies for stalking her. In the retardedly unlikely event she opens up to you, invite her home (just make sure you have good security) and fuck her brains out as best as you can (just use protection!) You'll enjoy it, I promise. But you won't get that far on this one.

In fact, you know what? I dare you to get a woman on a date and try to take her home. When you do, write up a Field Report and PM me the link. I want to see it. I don't think you have the balls. Prove me wrong.

NealIRC said:
NealIRC said:
For women where sex isn't a big deal to them, then virginity isn't a big deal to them.
By that I mean, women who take sex very seriously, are less inclined to care about a man's virginity. Whereas women who have sex left and right, probably do.
Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're contradicting yourself.

If by "probably do" you mean "do care" as in "are liable to be less attracted to him," then congratulations, you finally get it. If by "take sex very seriously" you're implying that they're sexually inexperienced, they might be a little more accepting of virginity, but I really wouldn't count on it. And by the way, if you think many gang chicks are sexually inexperienced, you have another thing coming.

Also, women who "have sex left and right" still do take it "very seriously" in that usually they're pretty selective about the guys they're fucking with, unless it's for money. Not selective in the way that most naïve chumps would think - stable, good job, good manners, etc. - but nevertheless selective on a more instinctive level. You'll usually find that all the men they sleep with are dominant, sexual men.

NealIRC said:
Right, an experienced woman fucking a virgin guy to give him experience, is 1 that isn't having sex to receive, but to give.
Please do not think that women will fuck you out of courtesy.

"An experienced woman fucking a virgin guy to give him experience" is either 1. not highly aware that that's actually what she's doing, 2. extremely ugly, 3. an older woman fucking a teenaged guy, or 4. a prostitute. Those are your choices.
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
ThePhoenix said:
But I do really suspect porn is causing you some serious problems and at the very least you owe it to yourself to do your own research on the subject of porn addiction and read about the experiences of others that have overcome it and what they did to do so. I wish I could give you more concrete advice on that subject but unlike some of your other issues, that's not something I've dealt with personally. I'd say first step is try going 4 months with zero porn; if you can't do that, at least you know it's a real problem. If you can (and do) do it easily, you probably weren't addicted after all.
Okay see below.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
And do women ever frequently sign their bank accounts to men who have less money than they?
You're reading too much into the example. I was basically just trying to illustrate that how difficult it is to get a woman to do something doesn't necessarily translate to how good it is as evidence of sexual attraction.

I'll say it again, the only real proof of sexual attraction is sex.
Well, I'm obviously into the "real proof of attraction" from women that causes men to women ask for sex, or ask for contact info. So your info is still useless to me.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
Yea, and I bet women are also turned off by boring relationships.
No arguments there!
Right, but the part that I find evil is the part where women blame men if the relationships become boring.

ThePhoenix said:
By and large, women have no idea why they are or are not attracted to particular men.
This is the stuff that fascinates me, does anybody else have any insight to this?

ThePhoenix said:
But look, if you think she wants you, ask her out for a drink. If you're right, then she'll be happy to accept. If not, either she's lost attraction for you, or way more likely never felt it in the first place. Just make sure it's somewhere with a lot of witnesses, in case she plays along to get you draped up by her gang buddies for stalking her. In the retardedly unlikely event she opens up to you, invite her home (just make sure you have good security) and fuck her brains out as best as you can (just use protection!) You'll enjoy it, I promise. But you won't get that far on this one.
Yea and other say smoke weed and Hennessey with her.

But she knows I don't drink. And she knows I do graffiti against alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs.

I know she smokes weed though.

Anyways, the answer is no, I won't be asking her for that, mainly because it's too late now, her revenge is built up and too high. I got her revenge at me so high that not even I can remove. I even though "what if I were to decrease her attraction to me, then shouldn't that make her less angry at me?" I tried that too and it didn't work. Her revenge won't budge.

ThePhoenix said:
In fact, you know what? I dare you to get a woman on a date and try to take her home. When you do, write up a Field Report and PM me the link. I want to see it. I don't think you have the balls. Prove me wrong.
Here's the problem, as a White guy with a college degree, I've never had a full time job before. Major in chemistry, minor in computer science.

I only work part-time jobs. And minimum wage or close to minimum wage jobs.

And the thing about Chicago is so segregated is such that White people almost never do minimum wage jobs in Chicago. Cell phone store sales reps, cashiers, fast food, all Hispanic and Black people working. And so for all the jobs I've had, I'm essentially the only White guy working...

So I ultimately bring shame to my family, at least the Asian side of my family.

So you probably already know, I didn't just want to live in White neighborhoods paying $500/month in rent, so I moved to cheaper neighborhoods that are Hispanic and Black and with gangs.

I gradated college 5 years ago, and still with my part-time job, $12/hour.

After living in Hispanic and Black neighborhoods, I decided I am street smart enough to live for free.

So that was 2 years ago, I moved to a large abandoned building, used to be a gum factory. No electricity or running water. But the joy for living for free is immense. Where I sleep at - is 4 buildings that are conjoined, some 4 floors tall, some 8 floors. I sleep in a office room with carpet floor.

Therefore I have surveyed White people on the Internet - like Reddit Chicago - about what do White people do if they can't find a job? If anyone has any friends with White people that are unemployed. And if anyone knows any White guys whom are married or in relationship with White women whom are unemployed...

Well, people mistake me for a troll, so I get troll answers...

Regarding porn, I Internet on a work or school computer, so my porn viewing has gone down. The only times I look at porn is if I take my laptop to my abandoned building or to a hotspot. Or spend Christmas for a week at my Mom's house.

But my availability of being roommates with a girl I anytime. Anytime I'm willing to move into an apartment with a girl as roommates. In White neighborhoods, they tend to want 12-month lease, so it's not gonna be in White neighborhoods.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
Right, an experienced woman fucking a virgin guy to give him experience, is 1 that isn't having sex to receive, but to give.
Please do not think that women will fuck you out of courtesy.
No, but it's an argument I use against GirlsChase about on the evils of women...

Or arguments about women not liking sex...
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
Okay pictures time.

Experiment4a.jpg


Experiment4b.jpg


Facebook photos. Last month, I seen this girl in real life on the public bus. She was with an older woman. Winter time, with some cleavage.

But I go "Hey, I've seen this girl's Facebook before." She has 4,600 friends, so I never msg'd her or anything.

But if this girl is the 1 I see on Facebook, then I could use this opportunity to go spit game to her, and not ask her for her # or so, and then msg her on Facebook.

And so, when the seats in front of her empty, I sat in front of them and go "Hey, are you guys from <the Puerto Rican neighborhood>?" and the younger ones goes yea. And then I talk and talk about, the gangs of that neighborhood, of her nationality. I started out looking at the older woman too, but only she responded.

I even had a folder with me and showed them photos of gang leaders. 1 image that caught her eye was on pokemon characters as gangs by symbols/colors etc.

She didn't ask me for my #, but she did something close to that... She asked what I do all this gang research for and I eventually tell her I put all this information on a website, and she asks me what's the website...

Well, I decided to give her some pamphlets, which had other websites of mine on it. And the pamphlets included erotic literature, so she gonna go home and orgasm to it. After giving her the lit I decided it's time for me to get off the bus so pulled the string and shortly took off.

Then the next morning msg'd her on Facebook an image of what she would recognize from the pamphlet followed by a poem.

Now, the interesting this is, if she did like me, and did wanted me to ask her for her #, and I didn't, then what does it mean. It means she gonna punish me, you know, revenge at me. And she can do that by not "opening" the Facebook msg.

Yup.

But, from my point of view, it's at least to get her to view my profile, and possibly stalk. I love the idea of having women as orbiters, but she doesn't strike me as the type that can easily be an orbiter to men.
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
Cacc said:
are you autistic by any chance?
Imagine if you lived in a world where it's always men asking women on dates 1st and men asking women for their #s 1st.

Doesn't it make you wonder what would happen if men didn't do it 1st?

Does nobody else ever wonder? Or better yet, does nobody else ever e-x-p-e-r-i-m-e-n-t?

I'm actually like this with drugs, too.

I mean, imagine if you lived in a world where young, healthy men, walked around with canes. And you scratch your head wonder "why do they walk with canes for?"

And if you steal the cane from them, they'll try to grab it back.
If you make a law making it illegal to walk with a cane for young healthy people, they'll protest and refuse to obey.

Well that's how I feel on the war on drugs. I could care less if marijuana, alcohol, were made illegal.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
305
NealIRC said:
... So your info is still useless to me.
Neal, I'm exercising incredible patience in breaking all this down for you because I only wish I could go back in time 20 years and straighten myself out from thinking in ways not entirely unlike the way you're thinking. Ways that cost me years of success with women. Years of never getting to see a girl's pussy wet because she wanted my dick in it.

I have lamented not having a time machine. But but you're making me question whether time travel would even do me any good. I could talk and talk at the younger me until I'm blue in the face and he would have done exactly what you're doing: rejecting everything I'm trying to show you.

NealIRC said:
Well, I'm obviously into the "real proof of attraction" from women that causes men to women ask for sex, or ask for contact info. ...
I'm going to assume from your prior position that you meant to say "that causes women to ask men for sex, or ask for contact info."

Do you want a woman to ask you for sex? There's a way to do it, but it's not what you're thinking. You still need to do the approaching. And getting contact info. And setting up a date. And inviting her home. But here's how you do it. Do all of that, escalate, get her clothes off, and tease the fuck out of her. Touch, kiss, lick her body and keep approaching her erogenous zones but then go back away from them. Later, slap her pussy, rub it, maybe suck on it a bit, but then stop and go back to the rest of her body. Give her little bits of stimulation but then tone it down each time.

If you do this right, she will eventually start begging you to fuck her. And once sex has already occurred, she may initiate on future occasions, particularly if you were good.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY A WOMAN WILL EVER ASK YOU FOR SEX.

Reason probably goes back to the sexy son hypothesis I've mentioned repeatedly. A man's knowing how to get sex makes him inherently more attractive. Conversely, a man she has to ask is totally unattractive to her because her genes would not spread as far with him since he's obviously clueless and his sons might be, too.

As for a woman asking you for contact info, it's basically the same deal. I've had a woman ask me for my contact info after I had already gotten hers. Never before. And while I can't remember it ever happening to me personally, sometimes they might ask you for yours instead of giving you theirs, after you've asked them. This translates to they want to get rid of you and are never going to call.

The closest they'll come is to hint that they would enjoy talking to you again. That's your cue to ask for the number. Same with sex. They actually will hint at what they want. But they will never ask.

Part of the reason is that asking for these things seriously jeaporadizes their social standing. Also, reasonably attractive women never need to, because, if you won't make the move, some other man will.

Neal, you need to understand that you're fighting a losing battle here! Because your theory (she should do all the asking) is NNNNNNEEEEVVVVEEERRRRRR going to work so long as your competition is not playing by the same rules you are. Just why the fuck would a woman stick her neck out and face the possibility of Neal rejecting her when she's already got tons of men courting her who have removed her social risks completely?

If you could somehow get every man in the entire world to agree to NEVER approach a woman, I give it 4 to 6 months before women everywhere would be throwing themselves at us like sluts.

But, Neal, just how do you propose to get all the men in the world to do this?

NealIRC said:
Right, but the part that I find evil is the part where women blame men if the relationships become boring.
Hm, men go cheat on women when they get bored, but anyway.

Do you generally think of women as being evil?

NealIRC said:
ThePhoenix said:
By and large, women have no idea why they are or are not attracted to particular men.
This is the stuff that fascinates me, does anybody else have any insight to this?
I don't know how well you know your minor, but if you're familiar with artificial neural networks, consider the fact that the node weights are almost always determined via back-propagation or genetic algorithms using a training set. If you were to show a programmer the actual node weight matrix of a trained, working network and ask for an explanation of the individual numbers in that matrix, they couldn't tell you.

But, bottom line, you felt it was unreasonable that women would prefer promiscuous children and therefore promiscuous mates, and I hope I was successful in helping you see why at least unconsciously that is actually not an unreasonable model at all.

NealIRC said:
...her revenge is built up and too high. I got her revenge at me so high that not even I can remove. I even though "what if I were to decrease her attraction to me, then shouldn't that make her less angry at me?" I tried that too and it didn't work. Her revenge won't budge.
Assuming you even did attract her, I've addressed the alleged revenge of women on your later remark, below. But you didn't attract her.

Hate to break it to you, but sending a girl a website with her pictures is not going to attract her. It coveys far, far, far too much investment on your part at such an early point and makes you look extremely needy. When you've actually attracted some girls - which you'll know from having had sex with them, - then you'll realize how silly you were for thinking you had ever attracted this one.

NealIRC said:
And the thing about Chicago is so segregated is such that White people almost never do minimum wage jobs in Chicago. Cell phone store sales reps, cashiers, fast food, all Hispanic and Black people working. And so for all the jobs I've had, I'm essentially the only White guy working...
Hahaha, do you know this can actually work to your advantage? Well, it depends on your tastes.

I was at a job for some time that wasn't minimum but was still pretty ghetto. There were tons of black girls working there, lots of 19 to 25 year olds. Well, you know me and black girls. Oh, my God, the troubles I went to to not quit even though I had every reason to from almost the time I started! HAHAHA. I cut my schedule down as much as they would let me, and then started calling in sick all the damn time because I had better things going on elsewhere, but I didn't want to actually quit, as annoying as the job itself was.

One day they got stricter and fired or laid off a ton of people, including many of the younger black girls. I quit about three weeks later.

I owe half my Facebook friend list to the place. :D

NealIRC said:
I gradated college 5 years ago, and still with my part-time job, $12/hour.
Unless you're doing that job in the interests of freeing up time for a business intended to eventually replace it, or for studies, you need to put more energy into getting a better job.

NealIRC said:
I moved to a large abandoned building, used to be a gum factory. No electricity or running water. But the joy for living for free is immense. Where I sleep at - is 4 buildings that are conjoined, some 4 floors tall, some 8 floors. I sleep in a office room with carpet floor.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that this isn't some kind of demented joke... in which case... I thought my persistence here was a complete waste of time, but it looks like maybe we're onto something!

I think what is happening is that you feel that your living circumstances would make you untouchable to women, so you don't want to try for a woman unless you first have some remarkable evidence of her being attracted - thus your obsession over women approaching you, which indeed would be a remarkable sign, but unfortunately that's because it is never going to happen, as I and others have explained repeatedly.

I suspect this may be your core issue, and I want to address it from three angles:

1. It is extremely damaging to a man's psyche to avoid approaching women or having intimacy with them, no matter what the reason.

Sadly, I spent close to 20 years avoiding women. The first half of that was due to an obsessive devotion to a Dulcinea who inspired me to not look at other women. (At least she made me more ambitious in other ways.) The second half owed to a cocktail of other mostly dumb reasons. One of those was being insecure over my living conditions.

Critically, I had assumed that once all conditions were right and I decided to get approaching women, I'd readily start to improve with practice. Unfortunately, it wasn't so simple.

The brain is a pattern machine. Close to 20 years of avoiding females programmed in an extremely strong pattern: when Phoenix sees a girl he's attracted to, he avoids her. It's an automatic reaction. It happens without my choice, and even when I know full well the reasons why I had been avoiding females no longer apply (if they ever did.)

Day after day I'd spend a whole day in a 1.2 million square foot shopping center, exposing me to thousands of women, and yet come home without having talked to a single woman. Every time I would intend to, my brain would come up with one inane excuse or another or another. Sometimes more than one. Heck, even in cases where there were no excuses, I would just find that I magically turned away at the last second and couldn't explain why.

I've gradually started overcoming the approach anxiety, but it has been an excruciatingly difficult battle.

The sad reality is that I did this to myself. It hadn't been nearly so hard before that almost 20 year hiatus.

Neal, please don't underestimate the damage you will do to yourself by in any manner avoiding women or sex. I only wish I had listened to those who tried to tell me that 20 years ago.

2. Use other locations.

You don't need her to know where you live. It's not as easy, but it's quite possible to get a girl to invite you to her place. Or you can take her to some neutral place. Heck, there's a park in my city where you see used condoms on the ground regularly. Check this site or ask questions on here.

By the way, you work but you pay no rent, so I hope you can at least afford some good clothes (except I don't know where you store stuff safely!) You'll need fashion guidance. Again, check this site and/or get someone to help you.

3. Fuck her in the ghetto.

I've lived in and have friends in housing projects. Trust me, plenty babies conceived up in there, and not by IVF!

This is one of those things where your own mental state is more significant than the physical factors. Living in the projects could have minimal impact, or it could ruin you, depending on you.

If you feel worthless or insecure because of where you live, it's going to poison your vibe and you'll find it virtually impossible to hook girls.

If on the other hand you have goals and are confident in them and look at a shit environment as a means to an end, you'll be ok. Women will overlook a lot when a man has a strong character. Yes, you'll lose some, but on the bright side, the ones you do get, you can be damn sure are totally into you!

An exec in a penthouse luxury suite actually has it harder than someone in a ghetto in one way. He has to work really hard to stop the girl from slowing things down because she sees him as a potential financial provider. Whereas if you live in the ghetto, she knows you're not boyfriend material, so she's more liable to go for casual sex.

Now, an abandoned building is a stretch. I think a guy really good with women could probably make it work some of the time. A female friend of mine (usually their advice can't be trusted, but this one's not bad,) once said, "if you have swag, you could take a girl to a dungeon!"

I doubt you're that good. Pull this off badly and the girl might think you're going to murder her! With that said, a few quick ideas:

  • You could pretend it's just some random building as opposed to your home, and make an adventure of it - getting fucked in an abandoned building, wow! (BTW, you do not need a bed for fucking... in fact, the floor has some advantages over a bed, although you may want to toss down something soft and clean.)
  • You might even find the odd girl who is fascinated with your bohemian lifestyle. What the hell, it's worth a shot. (I lived briefly in similar conditions, though I was too young to be serious about girls. Actually, no heat and electricity were manageable; what killed it for me was no toilet.)
  • Make the visit as brief as possible and get straight down to sex. The longer things draw out, the more likely the lack of running water becomes a problem.
  • Are there girls who are used to living in these conditions? Might not be such a big deal to them. (Just be really careful about STIs!)

But I'd urge you to consider at least moving back into a rental in the Hispanic/black neighbourhood. I assume the rent would be cheapest there, so you get some of the cost-saving benefit but you still have heat, electricity, running water and a working toilet, at least most of the time I hope. That's the threshold where it should not be genuinely prohibitive to get girls over even when you're just learning. At the very least, the Hispanic and black girls in your neighbourhood are worth a try, and you know they're used to similar hardships anyway.

Some of the time I spent staying away from girls, I was doing so in part because of insecurity over my living conditions. They weren't nearly as extreme as yours, but I still let it completely stop me from talking to girls. I regret that greatly, as, in retrospect, my fear was greatly exaggerated and I could've been fucking girls there fairly easily; I had friends living in similarly bad conditions who had no trouble pulling girls home and fucking them.

Seriously, a lot of obstacles are all in our heads.

NealIRC said:
Therefore I have surveyed White people on the Internet - like Reddit Chicago - about what do White people do if they can't find a job? If anyone has any friends with White people that are unemployed. And if anyone knows any White guys whom are married or in relationship with White women whom are unemployed...
This sounds like you are far too obsessed with race. (Haha that sounds funny coming out of a guy that only fancies black girls.)

A long time ago I was half-ways involved in a group conversation among some black women. They were making some references to "the man." (In case you live under a rock, that's a reference to white people in the context of systemic oppression of minorities.) I responded to this by remarking, "I'm gonna have to go find this man and have a talk with him!" To this, they very readily included me in their side of the 'us vs. them.'

Seriously, just do you and don't worry about what some stupid stereotype says.

NealIRC said:
Regarding porn, I Internet on a work or school computer, so my porn viewing has gone down. The only times I look at porn is if I take my laptop to my abandoned building or to a hotspot. Or spend Christmas for a week at my Mom's house.
Ok. But if you're only abstaining out of necessity, I wouldn't be totally sure it's not a problem. If you can go for say 6 months without viewing any porn even when you have good opportunity to, then I'd think you're probably ok.

NealIRC said:
But my availability of being roommates with a girl I anytime. Anytime I'm willing to move into an apartment with a girl as roommates. ...
You should not restrict yourself to female roommates. It may be harder to get a girl to trust you like that, especially in your case.

You have some distorted concepts of romance and sexuality and I think you're somehow getting off on the idea of having some hot roommate who is super-attracted to you, but whom you don't want to have sex with, but only see naked. You should stick with male roommates until you have your head a little straighter.

NealIRC said:
ThePhoenix said:
Please do not think that women will fuck you out of courtesy.
No, but it's an argument I use against GirlsChase about on the evils of women...
I'm not quite sure I understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying women are evil because they won't fuck you out of courtesy?

Just so you know, not everything I've told you comes from GirlsChase. A lot is from my own experiences and also from scientific material I've been exposed to elsewhere.

As for GirlsChase, over my life, due to my upbringing and work, I've gotten pretty good at judging the merits of intellecual claims. While I don't necessarily agree with everything on this site, I'd say that generally the concepts look pretty solid.

NealIRC said:
Or arguments about women not liking sex...
Again, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Women absolutely do like sex, but at once they also have a biological imperative to get it from men who know how to give it to them. If you're poorly adjusted or otherwise brainwashed by society, you could easily conclude that they don't like sex, even though they actually do.

NealIRC said:
But if this girl is the 1 I see on Facebook, then I could use this opportunity to go spit game to her, and not ask her for her # or so, and then msg her on Facebook.
Great. So now, instead of it seeming like a chance encounter with a cool guy, it's going to seem like she's got a creep stalking her on Facebook.

The only thing you should be using Facebook for in terms of game, is giving youself the chance to reconnect with girls - normally from social circle - that you've already met in real life some time before. I've used it that way on occasion. Or maybe for incidentally running into girls who know one of your real-life friends. Otherwise, forget Facebook.

NealIRC said:
And so, when the seats in front of her empty, I sat in front of them and go "Hey, are you guys from <the Puerto Rican neighborhood>?" and the younger ones goes yea.
Well, it's good at least you approach girls. And this is an ok way to open them, but then instead of showing sexual intent or doing any effective connecting, you start getting weird...
NealIRC said:
And then I talk and talk about, the gangs of that neighborhood, of her nationality.
How endearing.

(And in case Cacc is right, which I am starting to think he is, I'm being sarcastic. I have already discussed at length in a prior post the use of positive vs. negative aspects of a girl's ethnic community. So I won't repeat myself. It gives me great pleasure to realize you completely ignored my advice. Oops, there goes my sarcasm again...)

NealIRC said:
She didn't ask me for my #, but she did something close to that... She asked what I do all this gang research for and I eventually tell her I put all this information on a website, and she asks me what's the website...
That's about as close to asking you for your # as a polar bear is to taking over the world.

If Cacc is right, you probably don't realize this, but people often ask questions the answers of which they don't even care. There's a good chance she was only asking this in order to be polite or to try to make conversation.

Or maybe you had gotten her genuinely interested in the social cause you were promoting, which doesn't really help you in terms of attracting her sexually.

NealIRC said:
And the pamphlets included erotic literature, so she gonna go home and orgasm to it.
LMAO. Is this a joke?!

I would not call that a reliable strategy. Maybe it works 1 time in 1000. I don't even read most of the shit random strangers give me. There are means of leading girls to orgasm that will give you much more consistent results.

NealIRC said:
Then the next morning msg'd her on Facebook an image of what she would recognize from the pamphlet followed by a poem.
My brain is dead.

NealIRC said:
Now, the interesting this is, if she did like me, and did wanted me to ask her for her #, and I didn't, then what does it mean. It means she gonna punish me, you know, revenge at me. And she can do that by not "opening" the Facebook msg.
First of all, if she doesn't open the message, it's pobably because either she confuses it as spam, doesn't want strangers on FB, or found you unattractive or creepy.

I don't know where you get this persistent notion that a woman will exact revenge on a man because the man didn't approach/date/fuck her. Disappointment, frustration, loss of interest, sure. But revenge? I won't deny that there are some psycho women out there, but if you think this is a typical female behaviour, you're getting really carried away.

The withdrawal/avoidance behaviours you interpret as revenge have a much simpler explanation.

Women have an instinctive need to procreate. They entertain approaches from men because they need men in order to do so. But if you don't smoothly progress towards helping her make babies, or at least making her body feel like that's what she's doing, she's going to tune you out, because you are of no use to her, the same way you'd tune out a commercial for tampons. You have become noise.

NealIRC said:
But, from my point of view, it's at least to get her to view my profile, and possibly stalk.
Thanks a lot, Neal. Now I have to clean up the juice I spat at my computer to stop from choking on laughter.

NealIRC said:
I love the idea of having women as orbiters...
Then you'd better start fucking their brains out. The only time I have ever ever EVER seen or even heard of a woman becoming obsessive over a man, the man either 1. is a major celebrity, or 2. gave the woman mind-blowing sex. And #2 is a lot easier than #1.

NealIRC said:
Doesn't it make you wonder what would happen if men didn't do it 1st?

Does nobody else ever wonder?
No. It's pretty obvious what would happen. Women would throw themselves at men like horny sluts.

Problem is, you need all men in the world to co-operate to never approach women!! You may as well try to start your very own flying pig colony on the moon. Because you have just as much chances of making that happen.

NealIRC said:
Or better yet, does nobody else ever e-x-p-e-r-i-m-e-n-t?
Please do not think for a second that you are experimenting. You are not experimenting. You are shooting yourself in the foot.

From Wikipedia:
An experiment is a procedure carried out to support, refute, or validate a hypothesis.
If it can be trivially shown that a hypothesis is invalid - as I and others have done repeatedly with yours - then the experiment is meaningless and futile because it cannot serve the basic purpose of validating that hypothesis.

It's kind of like trying to do all kinds of experiments designed to prove that the Earth is flat.

Another way of looking at it is that, since in all the time you've been doing these "experiments" you haven't gotten laid once, the experiments have already succeeded at refuting your hypothesis, and therefore serve no further purpose.
 

NealIRC

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
170
Location
Chicago, Illinois.
ThePhoenix said:
Do you want a woman to ask you for sex? There's a way to do it, but it's not what you're thinking. You still need to do the approaching. And getting contact info. And setting up a date. And inviting her home. But here's how you do it. Do all of that, escalate, get her clothes off, and tease the fuck out of her. Touch, kiss, lick her body and keep approaching her erogenous zones but then go back away from them. Later, slap her pussy, rub it, maybe suck on it a bit, but then stop and go back to the rest of her body. Give her little bits of stimulation but then tone it down each time.

If you do this right, she will eventually start begging you to fuck her. And once sex has already occurred, she may initiate on future occasions, particularly if you were good.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY A WOMAN WILL EVER ASK YOU FOR SEX.

Reason probably goes back to the sexy son hypothesis I've mentioned repeatedly. A man's knowing how to get sex makes him inherently more attractive. Conversely, a man she has to ask is totally unattractive to her because her genes would not spread as far with him since he's obviously clueless and his sons might be, too.

As for a woman asking you for contact info, it's basically the same deal. I've had a woman ask me for my contact info after I had already gotten hers. Never before. And while I can't remember it ever happening to me personally, sometimes they might ask you for yours instead of giving you theirs, after you've asked them. This translates to they want to get rid of you and are never going to call.

The closest they'll come is to hint that they would enjoy talking to you again. That's your cue to ask for the number. Same with sex. They actually will hint at what they want. But they will never ask.

Part of the reason is that asking for these things seriously jeaporadizes their social standing.
A lot of this could be summarized to, women are like gangs, or any group where you have to have already figured them out and they won't tell you why they are.

Why do gangs tilt their cap a certain way, dress in certain colors? Whereas if you wore the cap in opposite directions or wore opposing colors, then they take offense.

I once tried asking women "insider information" questions and they refused. There was a U.S. army thing, where you had to do push-ups to win a t-shirt.

Men of all ages did push-ups. But only women in the middle school age did, not moms.

And these 8th or 9th grade girls could do lots of push-ups, like 20 or 25.

And so I asked the men employees "can women do the most push-ups in the 8th or 9th grade age than when they are older?"

All the men employees were like "Yea maybe! Sure seems like it."

But what do you think the women employes (of U.S. army) responded when I asked...

They responded with "Oh I have no idea" and "ask those employees [whom were guys] over there" and such.

ThePhoenix said:
Also, reasonably attractive women never need to, because, if you won't make the move, some other man will.
But actually, this is the part that helps me, as it hurts her.

If she wants me. And some lesser guy courts her. This puts her in a dilemma. This is what I would want.

ThePhoenix said:
Sadly, I spent close to 20 years avoiding women. The first half of that was due to an obsessive devotion to a Dulcinea who inspired me to not look at other women. (At least she made me more ambitious in other ways.) The second half owed to a cocktail of other mostly dumb reasons. One of those was being insecure over my living conditions.

Critically, I had assumed that once all conditions were right and I decided to get approaching women, I'd readily start to improve with practice. Unfortunately, it wasn't so simple.

The brain is a pattern machine. Close to 20 years of avoiding females programmed in an extremely strong pattern: when Phoenix sees a girl he's attracted to, he avoids her. It's an automatic reaction. It happens without my choice, and even when I know full well the reasons why I had been avoiding females no longer apply (if they ever did.)

Day after day I'd spend a whole day in a 1.2 million square foot shopping center, exposing me to thousands of women, and yet come home without having talked to a single woman. Every time I would intend to, my brain would come up with one inane excuse or another or another. Sometimes more than one. Heck, even in cases where there were no excuses, I would just find that I magically turned away at the last second and couldn't explain why.

I've gradually started overcoming the approach anxiety, but it has been an excruciatingly difficult battle.

The sad reality is that I did this to myself. It hadn't been nearly so hard before that almost 20 year hiatus.

Neal, please don't underestimate the damage you will do to yourself by in any manner avoiding women or sex. I only wish I had listened to those who tried to tell me that 20 years ago.
Oh, I don't avoid women. When I see attractive women, I approach them and spit game.

And when I'm done, I leave. It's to make them go "Wow, that was a really attractive guy. Either I wish he asked me for my #, or I should have asked for his / given him mine / whatever they think."

As well as "I wish the <guy I have crush on> would have been like that."

ThePhoenix said:
You should not restrict yourself to female roommates. It may be harder to get a girl to trust you like that, especially in your case.

You have some distorted concepts of romance and sexuality and I think you're somehow getting off on the idea of having some hot roommate who is super-attracted to you, but whom you don't want to have sex with, but only see naked. You should stick with male roommates until you have your head a little straighter.
But having females roommates could do is.

-Opportunity to attract and attract the bleep out of them.
-Or they could introduce you to their female friends.
-Etc.

ThePhoenix said:
Women absolutely do like sex, but at once they also have a biological imperative to get it from men who know how to give it to them. If you're poorly adjusted or otherwise brainwashed by society, you could easily conclude that they don't like sex, even though they actually do.
Yes, it's quite an art to get a girl to want sex by offering it to them 1st. But not quite as an art to get a girl to see past that. To go past that biological imperative. Evolutionary love vs. free-will love.

ThePhoenix said:
NealIRC said:
But if this girl is the 1 I see on Facebook, then I could use this opportunity to go spit game to her, and not ask her for her # or so, and then msg her on Facebook.
Great. So now, instead of it seeming like a chance encounter with a cool guy, it's going to seem like she's got a creep stalking her on Facebook.
Huh? It's not considered stalking if you msg'd her.

And what if my goal was to be in the friendzone? Is it still considered stalking?
 

ThePhoenix

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NealIRC said:
A lot of this could be summarized to, women are like gangs, or any group where you have to have already figured them out and they won't tell you why they are.
I kinda-sorta agree. Women totally won't tell you how they work, and there's certainly an "in" group who understand them vs. the majority of men who don't.

I imagine it's somewhat intentional in the case of gangs, but I'm pretty sure it's not in the case of women. Like I said, I don't even fully understand my own sexual tendencies.

I should take this moment to note that the extent to which most men don't understand women actually makes it pretty easy to differentiate yourself from other men without having to go to such a hopeless extreme as trying to somehow hook up with them without even asking for a phone number.

As for the balance of your last post:

You're playing a fool's game, arguing with someone who has way better experience with women than you do.

Not to say I'm the world's greatest expert. I'm on here because there are guys on here who get much more consistent results than I do and I want to learn from them.

But let's compare your results with mine. You've said that you're not looking for sex, you're looking for "lust," so let's look at that.

What's the best proof you have of having a girl lust after you? Let's see.

You claim that a gang chick was stalking you. Your evidence of this is her showing up at your college. And some hits on a website. Realistically, you don't know what she was doing at your college. You also don't know the motivation for those website hits. For all you know they came from her showing the site to the police. Your evidence is weak at best.

You also claim a Puerto Rican woman went home and masturbated to your erotic literature. This you have simply assumed without even actually having any evidence whatsoever, let alone proof. I could write some erotic literature and hand it to a GUY, for fuck's sake!! Do you think that would mean some straight guy went home and whacked off fantasizing about me?! (Ewwww, lol.)

My turn.

I've had a pair of sexy young women literally tear my clothes off, to the point of causing damage to said clothes. Unlike you, I don't need to get into a long-winded story, because that alone speaks for itself.

I was going to give you an assignment to ask 50 random strangers whether your scenario or mine was better proof of lust, but then I realized that 50 or 100 or even 100,000 people could tell you that I made the girl lust and you didn't, but you'd simply dismiss every last one of them as wrong. When you've lost your mind, the whole world is wrong.

No. As someone else on here said, you're off in your own reality. Maybe the only slightest hope of pulling you out is to venture a little ways into the rabbit hole myself...

WARNING: If you are not NealIRC, you should stop reading before your head explodes. If you are new to seduction and you do read this, be warned that what follows contains implausible bullshit which you should not take seriously at all. If you have half a brain you will probably be able to know which parts are implausible, but I am not responsible for loss of pussy in the event that you read this post in spite of having been warned not to.

Since you want to do experiments, we're going to do an experiment, but we have to do it scientifically, and that means using controls.

So you're going to split all the random girls you talk to (they have to be random!) into two groups: EXPERIMENT and CONTROL.

We are testing the theory that not asking a girl for her number or a date will make her stalk you.

You're going to split the girls 50%/50% between these two groups. First one is CONTROL, second is EXPERIMENT, third is CONTROL, etcetera.

In the EXPERIMENT group, you're going to spit game and then just walk away. These are the ones that according to your theory, we expect will stalk you.

The problem with just doing this, is that, if a girl stalks, we have no idea whether she did this because you didn't ask for her number, or for some other reason such as your game just being that damn tight. Maybe she was going to stalk you even if you had asked her for her number.

Thus in the CONTROL group, you're going to spit game exactly the same (you must make sure it's exactly the same!) but then you're going to try to get the girl's number.

Our analysis will consist of whether the fraction of girls who stalk in the EXPERIMENT group shows a statistically significant difference from the fraction of girls who stalk in the CONTROL group. (Let's go with the usual p=0.05.) The null hypothesis would of course be that women stalk the same amount regardless of whether or not you ask for their number; to prove your theory you must disprove that null hypothesis.

I leave it to your overactive imagination how to even know if girls are stalking you. Maybe instead of having your web address on your pamphlet directly, you could print out a bunch of stickers with unique URLs and put the sticker over where the URL would have been on the pamphlet. If she visits that URL on more than 10 separate occasions then she is stalking you.

Whatever stalking detection approach you use, it is extremely important that you use a quantitative measure of stalking, and that you use it uniformly between the two groups, because otherwise the experiment will be tainted by your own confirmation bias, which is of particular concern in your case due to the strength of your belief in your current theory.

The CONTROL group requires you to ask for their number, so let's develop the experimental procedure.

Before you walk away, take out your phone and start a new contact.

If you know her name:

Type it yourself and then pass her the phone and ask if you've spelled her name correctly. It's that simple. Girls aren't stupid, she'll put her number in unless she doesn't want you to have it. (In the latter case she might still stalk, so be sure to do whatever you're doing to judge whether the girl is stalking!)

If you don't know her real name but have given her a nickname:

(Personally I've actually had better results with this one.)

Type the nickname and pass her the phone. Again, they're not idiots. Usually she'll smile or laugh at the nickname. Sometimes she deletes it and keys in her real name, sometimes not. Once, I had one add her e-mail address so I'd know her actual name, lol. She will probably realize you don't know her name and do something or other to tell you. So far I've never had one who didn't, but that's only because I'M A FUCKING IDIOT AND HAVEN'T APPROACHED ENOUGH GIRLS TO HAVE THIS HAPPEN YET.

She may start using the nickname herself, which is usually a good sign that she is stalking you.

If you don't know her name and don't have a nickname for her:

As you're creating the contact, say, "sorry, I didn't catch your name," or anything better than that that you can think of, type whatever she says, and pass her the phone.

DON'T FORGET TO ACTIVATE YOUR STALKING DETECTOR!!

In the event she gave you her number, we need a standardized procedure to maximize the possibility that she stalks you. Stalker girls love to have your phone number so they can call you 23 times per day, so we must ensure that she has your number. She might ask you anyway, but just in case, there are a few ways we can make sure she has it.

My favourite is top-secret so I'll have to give you a more pedestrian approach. Exactly two hours after you met her (remember, this is a scientific experiment so we have to keep all factors the same,) send her this exact text:
<her name>! It's Neal. Save my #

You should probably start a side experiment using the girls who do give you their numbers, to test the effect of trying to have sex with them on their probability of stalking. Expectation per your theory is, I would assume, that not trying to have sex with them will make them stalk, so we should see a much greater number of stalkers in the NO-SEX group vs. the SEX group. But since we are scientists, we can't just assume this, we need to prove it experimentally.

I want you to keep a spreadsheet which gives each girl's name, where you met, whether she is EXPERIMENT or CONTROL, and if she is CONTROL, whether she gave you her number, and whether or not she is stalking you. You will need a large sample size to reliably test the hypothesis that girls stalk because you don't ask for their number. You should post the spreadsheet when you are done, for accountability and so that we can all learn about making girls stalk by not asking for their number.

You want to e-x-p-e-r-i-m-e-n-t?? Go do it.
 

NealIRC

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Women don't stalk me after a 1-minute conversation with them. Even for cases where we meet once or twice a year.

I know this because I hand out pamphlets to women, on getting women out of religion.

At the end of the pamphlet, has a website where it says you can reproduce copies of this pamphlet at said url. Url is <my college website>.edu/~<my username>/ChristianityPamphlet.docx.

If they go to my root folder, they will come across my school page. Because it is a school page, I actually don't know if someone visits it, the statistics of it.

But I have a link on the page that says "On month, day, year, I was arrested by Chicago Police Department for the 2nd time" and it links to my personal website page.

That, I will know if someone clicked the link from my school site.

Out of 8,xxx women I've handed out pamphlets to, for the past 6 years, I generally don't get women that go on the website.

-

But I do get a lot of women stalkers on my Facebook. Last summer, I decided to make a "Okay today I'm going to talk about the Latin Kings" and later made posts about other gangs in other neighborhoods. That causes other Latin Kings on Facebook to go "ay check out this guy's profile, he's talking about us" and naturally the women in the gangs, as well as of the neighborhood, will view my profile, including daughters of some prominent leaders.

But unfortunately, there's no fine line at all about knowing whether the women come back to view my profiles, because they attracted to me, or, they wanna see what I post about the gangs. Most likely both than only attraction. I mean, there is a sense that I'm showing balls, and not caring what others think, about giving out what I know about the history of the gangs, and their stories.

-

I am, however, thinking of making a website on Chicago gangs, and using that url for my atheism pamphlets instead. Example: chicagogangs.com/AtheismPamphlets.docx.
 

Rain

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ThePhoenix said:
1. It is extremely damaging to a man's psyche to avoid approaching women or having intimacy with them, no matter what the reason.

Sadly, I spent close to 20 years avoiding women. The first half of that was due to an obsessive devotion to a Dulcinea who inspired me to not look at other women. (At least she made me more ambitious in other ways.) The second half owed to a cocktail of other mostly dumb reasons. One of those was being insecure over my living conditions.

Critically, I had assumed that once all conditions were right and I decided to get approaching women, I'd readily start to improve with practice. Unfortunately, it wasn't so simple.

The brain is a pattern machine. Close to 20 years of avoiding females programmed in an extremely strong pattern: when Phoenix sees a girl he's attracted to, he avoids her. It's an automatic reaction. It happens without my choice, and even when I know full well the reasons why I had been avoiding females no longer apply (if they ever did.)

Day after day I'd spend a whole day in a 1.2 million square foot shopping center, exposing me to thousands of women, and yet come home without having talked to a single woman. Every time I would intend to, my brain would come up with one inane excuse or another or another. Sometimes more than one. Heck, even in cases where there were no excuses, I would just find that I magically turned away at the last second and couldn't explain why.

I've gradually started overcoming the approach anxiety, but it has been an excruciatingly difficult battle.

The sad reality is that I did this to myself. It hadn't been nearly so hard before that almost 20 year hiatus.

Neal, please don't underestimate the damage you will do to yourself by in any manner avoiding women or sex. I only wish I had listened to those who tried to tell me that 20 years ago.

That's a very good post about approach anxiety. On the main girlschase page is a podcast with Glenn Pierce, talks about approach anxiety there. Backs up what you're saying that yeah, it's a habit to not approach, a bad habit that' s difficult to break. When you say the part where even without an excuse, just magically turn away or keep walking instead of stopping and approaching. I've experienced that myself, I think it's to do with not being inside your head, or being in state or the zone can maybe help that and social momentum as well. But the way you described that was spot on. No excuse but just.... can't do it in this type of moment. Starting with something smaller, or more achievable might be a way to break that too if you are inexperienced in general [a bit like I was, well still am, but have managed to overcome the approach anxiety a lot], and/or just starting out for that particular night.
 

NealIRC

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Rain said:
That's a very good post about approach anxiety.
If all this is true, there's gotta be somebody out there who claims to have been raised/taught by their moms to go out and approach women.

There's gotta be some women out there that likes being approached by guys that they teach their sons to?

Rain said:
On the main girlschase page is a podcast with Glenn Pierce, talks about approach anxiety there. Backs up what you're saying that yeah, it's a habit to not approach, a bad habit that' s difficult to break. When you say the part where even without an excuse, just magically turn away or keep walking instead of stopping and approaching. I've experienced that myself, I think it's to do with not being inside your head, or being in state or the zone can maybe help that and social momentum as well. But the way you described that was spot on. No excuse but just.... can't do it in this type of moment. Starting with something smaller, or more achievable might be a way to break that too if you are inexperienced in general [a bit like I was, well still am, but have managed to overcome the approach anxiety a lot], and/or just starting out for that particular night.
The flip side of the coin is you gotta be careful about is likes approach likes. Women can sniff if she don't want to be approached by a guy coming towards her and so if he does she gonna treat him like a creep. Vegetarian guys approaching non-vegetarian women, etc.
 

Michal

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NealIRC said:
Rain said:
That's a very good post about approach anxiety.
If all this is true, there's gotta be somebody out there who claims to have been raised/taught by their moms to go out and approach women.

There's gotta be some women out there that likes being approached by guys that they teach their sons to?

Rain said:
On the main girlschase page is a podcast with Glenn Pierce, talks about approach anxiety there. Backs up what you're saying that yeah, it's a habit to not approach, a bad habit that' s difficult to break. When you say the part where even without an excuse, just magically turn away or keep walking instead of stopping and approaching. I've experienced that myself, I think it's to do with not being inside your head, or being in state or the zone can maybe help that and social momentum as well. But the way you described that was spot on. No excuse but just.... can't do it in this type of moment. Starting with something smaller, or more achievable might be a way to break that too if you are inexperienced in general [a bit like I was, well still am, but have managed to overcome the approach anxiety a lot], and/or just starting out for that particular night.
The flip side of the coin is you gotta be careful about is likes approach likes. Women can sniff if she don't want to be approached by a guy coming towards her and so if he does she gonna treat him like a creep. Vegetarian guys approaching non-vegetarian women, etc.
Neal,

Big majority of women have no clue about how to actually seduce girls. That is what your dad is for. Moms only go like: "so, have you invited her to cinema or something yet?" or "are you going to ask her out?"
Dads are the ones to teach their sons (and daughters) how to approach dating in general. By either teasing the sons to man up and provide advice. "you need to make the first move, dont be a bitch" and scold their daughters by telling them they are not wearing THAT to that party.
 

NealIRC

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Michal said:
Big majority of women have no clue about how to actually seduce girls.
Yea... the big majority of women whom are plain Janes and never really attracted anybody.

But I actually think women who been hit on by a lot of guys, have tons of stories on pick-up or attract methods.

Anybody got stories of women telling them what methods other guys have used on them?

Like that girl I msg on Facebook, and the pick-up lines I use and the way I spit game, I wish she tell me what methods other guys have used.

Don't most husbands know what methods men have used on their wife, before he was hers?

-

Many times when I have convos with girls who are cashiers and sales rep, I like to ask them "Don't you ever have any reoccurring guys who come to the store just to see you?" and such.
 

ThePhoenix

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Rain said:
That's a very good post about approach anxiety.
Thanks!

Now, Neal's case is different - which unfortunately caused him to discount its relevance to him. He's approached 8000+ women, so he doesn't seem to suffer approach anxiety in the way you or I have. However, he still manifests habituated avoidance behaviour, in that whereas we can't start an interaction, he can start it but he can't finish it.

You can see throughout this thread the bizarre theories he has developed in order to provide himself with excuses to not ask for numbers or dates. I strongly suspect that his psyche has developed these excuses as a means to protect his ego from rejection.

The extent to which his ego cannot bear the thought of rejection or disinterest is demonstrated in his attribution of womens' ignoring him on Facebook to their taking "revenge" on him for not asking them out.

I get the feeling he is an extremely proud individual. Takes one to know one. That is holding him back. He absolutely cannot face rejection, because it would destroy his delusion that he is so good with women that he has them stalking him.

It also explains why he purports to not want sex. Because if he did, it would be clear - even to himself - that he sucks with women. Not wanting sex gives him an excuse for not getting any. It allows him to fabricate specious evidence of the "lust" he supposedly wants - evidence that cannot be easily refuted the way that getting sex could be refuted.

My analysis here has actually made me wonder whether this is what I was doing with the obsession over Dulcinea - using her to protect myself from rejections. I'll never really know, because it never consciously seemed like it to me. Just as when he reads this, he'll think I've got him all wrong.

His (extreme) problems are now fairly clear to me, but unfortunately that doesn't make them clear to him. At least you and I admit our problems. That makes it possible to fix them.

Rain said:
Starting with something smaller, or more achievable might be a way to break that too if you are inexperienced in general [a bit like I was, well still am, but have managed to overcome the approach anxiety a lot], and/or just starting out for that particular night.
Good tips. For me, I found that sexual deprivation helps a lot. It's hard to appreciate how motivating sexual release is until you strictly withhold it.
 

NealIRC

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ThePhoenix said:
You can see throughout this thread the bizarre theories he has developed in order to provide himself with excuses to not ask for numbers or dates. I strongly suspect that his psyche has developed these excuses as a means to protect his ego from rejection.
But sometimes I do have dates by accidents. Like seeing a girl I see once or twice a year at a carnival, and making the "let me know if you hungry, I got you."

As for numbers, you know the reason why I don't ask for numbers. It's the same reason women don't ask me for my #, I don't have anything to text them.

And why would I ever want to send a woman a text message?

I hope you know, whatever I can say in a text message, I can just as do in real life, which is better.

ThePhoenix said:
The extent to which his ego cannot bear the thought of rejection or disinterest is demonstrated in his attribution of womens' ignoring him on Facebook to their taking "revenge" on him for not asking them out.
But if you think about it, women reject me all the time. Every day, every hour. Every time you sit on the bus or train and women walk past you and didn't want to strike up a convo with you, that's a rejection.

Of course, it works the other way around too. Every time a woman sees I walk past her and ignore, that's a rejection too.

ThePhoenix said:
It also explains why he purports to not want sex. Because if he did, it would be clear - even to himself - that he sucks with women. Not wanting sex gives him an excuse for not getting any. It allows him to fabricate specious evidence of the "lust" he supposedly wants - evidence that cannot be easily refuted the way that getting sex could be refuted.
Well you are certainly right that I don't want weaknesses. It's every man's interest just about to not have weaknesses.

ThePhoenix said:
My analysis here has actually made me wonder whether this is what I was doing with the obsession over Dulcinea - using her to protect myself from rejections. I'll never really know, because it never consciously seemed like it to me. Just as when he reads this, he'll think I've got him all wrong.

His (extreme) problems are now fairly clear to me, but unfortunately that doesn't make them clear to him. At least you and I admit our problems. That makes it possible to fix them.
Remember, everything goes the other way around. Just that value is subjective to people.
 
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