Fashion, fundamentals, game system discussion (derailed Spike appreciation)

[Skills]

The reason most pua books only spend a small percentage of the books on that including myself, is because most of those books were written during gen x... Second, people bought the books specifically to learn social skills and how to interact and lay women... The books were not marketed as style or fitness books... I mean is obvious... A lot of the pua books also recommend fitness books and fashion books on the recommended reading... I mean is just common sense..

 

[ChrisXKiss]

A big difference in the skill of a beginner PUA and an advanced PUA is the difference in how they walk, how they talk, how they express themselves. This is, again, most of attraction. Getting attraction is not what game is about. Game is about getting that attracted girl into bed.

This is interesting. I know you have been following the Mystery Method and honestly I never really dived into it, but I always felt that it was built by Mystery to get girls that were not attracted to him initially.

That's what I thought all these things like negging, not talking to your target first in the group etc are for. To literally make the girl interested in you, because without them she wouldn't be.

Is that way off?

 

[Tryst]

This is interesting. I know you have been following the Mystery Method and honestly I never really dived into it, but I always felt that it was built by Mystery to get girls that were not attracted to him initially.

That's what I thought all these things like negging, not talking to your target first in the group etc are for. To literally make the girl interested in you, because without them she wouldn't be. (emphasis Tryst's)

Is that way off?

Half correct. The first stage of the cold-approach PU is building value. Mystery calls this A2 (and notice that open, A1, is only important because it lets you get to A2; it's a logistical necessity).

As I'm sure you know, the girls perception of the S&R value-differential between you is (as far as I can tell) entirely responsible for her attraction. So somehow you have to build this value. Anything that builds value is defined as DHV, and so we get attraction by building value by DHVing. These three things are practically synonymous.

What does it mean for a woman to be "attracted to him initially"? You're saying that she saw his face, his style, his body-language, and they weren't attracted. Mystery says, "okay, cool. They don't like me right now based on my aesthetics, but hang on. As long as I DHV somehow else, they will still be attracted to me." So he negs, frame controls, DHV stories, demonstrates good voice, demonstrates willingness to walk, demonstrates social proof, etc - ALL of these things are DHVs.

And so now he has value, so the girl is attracted to him, even though the aesthetics by themselves did not get enough attraction.

So you have to see the aesthetics (style/looks) as just a particular type of DHV which you apply just by a girl seeing you. Similarly, preselection/social proof can be demonstrated without you even having opened the girl.

When I say that "fundamentals handle most of attraction", what I'm saying is that most of your DHVing/DLVing is done with your fundamentals - it's synonymous.

So yes, MM is built by design to get any girl, not only girls who think you're physically attractive. But it doesn't say that looks/style are meaningless. They are either DHV or DLV. If they're DHV, great. If they're DLV, then you're gonna have to work a lot harder to recoup that value and get enough for attraction. Likewise, if your other fundamentals are shit, you're gonna really struggle to overcome the fundamentals DLVs just through your verbals. A good PUA is quite consistently walking up to sets and getting some degree of attraction within 10 seconds. It seems like he hasn't had time to DHV, he hasn't negged or told any stories. But his higher value is communicated just in the way he speaks, the way he holds himself, the fact that he has immediately commanded a groups attention without seeming needy or wanting anything.

The reason I say you're only half-correct is because there is no assumption that the girl would not be attracted by just your looks, and ideally, your looks are a DHV by themselves. But it would be a shame to give up just because the girl isn't immediately attracted to you, which is why indirect/DHV routines are prescribed.


Also in case I wasn't clear, your looks alone might be enough of a DHV that you barely even have to bother doing anything else. If that's the case, skip A2 and move straight on - you've already accomplished the goals of A2 without even having to speak to her. Personally I think it's kind of lame to rely entirely on looks, and say "you either have attraction or you don't", because it's not true. Someone who relies entirely on his looks/style to get attraction is missing out on a lot of opportunities.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

The reason I say you're only half-correct is because there is no assumption that the girl would not be attracted by just your looks, and ideally, your looks are a DHV by themselves. But it would be a shame to give up just because the girl isn't immediately attracted to you, which is why indirect/DHV routines are prescribed.

Yeah I get that.

I feel one issue I’ve had with this idea about running routines to create attraction is that you need the girl to stay and pay attention to you. Sometimes they will, but I’ve had a lot of times the situation in nightlife that she just doesn’t engage after the open, so it is not even possible to run some kind of game on her.

So although I believe in the power of running this routine game, it felt difficult to find enough sets to even practice it sometimes. And honestly a lot of times that a girl hooks, she is as you said already attracted somehow, so a lot of the routines are not even needed.

I guess one reason I prefer daygame is exactly this one. I feel there are more girls around, so I am not restricted by the number inside the venue, and it also feels easier to capture their attention and get a proper interaction going.

 

[Tryst]

I feel one issue I’ve had with this idea about running routines to create attraction is that you need the girl to stay and pay attention to you. Sometimes they will, but I’ve had a lot of times the situation in nightlife that she just doesn’t engage after the open, so it is not even possible to run some kind of game on her.

Important thing to notice.

Beginner Tryst:
"Wtf I did my open, tried to tell a story, and the girls got bored/couldn't hear me/thought I was lame/didn't pay attention! This shit doesn't work!"

The fact is that prehook you can't run long routines. Often you can't run long routines at all if the music is loud, or there are various distractions/interrupts/things going on. Trying to run a long routine when it is difficult to do so looks tryhard - you're obviously expending energy to impress the girls, and are therefore lower value. So the girls lose interest and you're left telling a story to nobody.

There's a time and a place for different routines. Longer stories normally come later. You can only offer as much as the girls are willing to accept - so early in set, you build value in other ways. Of course, your fundamentals build your value and get the initial hook. Then you go in with fun little quick canned routines. You tease, you neg, you laugh and have a good time. You're not there to occupy them and take their attention, you're just a fun guy having fun and sharing fun things. Then as the relationship between you and the set deepens, you might invest in them by telling a story. If you overinvest by telling the story too early, you lose value - why do you care to share that story with girls you don't even know?

she just doesn’t engage after the open, so it is not even possible to run some kind of game on her.

Just because she didn't engage with you doesn't mean there's a problem with the system, or that it was not possible to game her. Rather you gamed her, just in the wrong way. You have to build value immediately, otherwise why would the girl waste her time talking to you? She wants to have fun and talk to attractive guys, not sit and listen to what some low-value guy is saying. Keep her attention by DHVing immediately after you open:

PUA: [Opinion opener] bla bla bla so is that cheating?
Girls: [Excited, showing interest] omg wow that's CRAZY
Here you notice that the girls are interested and excited to talk to you. They're having fun. You drop your opener, because it isn't building you any value (beyond showing off fundamentals.) You cut yourself off and launch forwards through the conversation onto the next bit - we call this "stacking forwards."

PUA: oh my god I can't even listen to you girls right now, you guys are crazy - wait. Are you girls best friends?
See how you just STOP the last bit when it isn't useful anymore? And just go straight into the next thing. You could have gone in with another tease, a comment on their clothes, or like "hey, check this thing out", and into a story on that thing. All of it builds value.

Ultimately if the girl is just not engaging with you off the open, you let the momentum die before you got a chance to build any value. Now if you try to continue the momentumless conversation, she feels that you're trying to get something, your value plummets, she gets uncomfortable if you keep trying to engage with her. So obviously you have to build value before the momentum drops. You do this by:

- Keep the conversation going as long as possible before anyone realises the momentum is gone (naturally stacking forwards when a piece isn't working)
- Build as much value as you can in that time

If you build enough value, then if the conversation starts to falter, the girls themselves will invest energy to keep the conversation going, and this is compliance. We keep building value, start throwing compliance tests in, and off we go.

So what I want you to get from all of the above:
- you get the girl to pay attention by being high value
- you have to act appropriate to the setting and level of investment from the set (anything else is low value)
- if she doesn't engage, you failed to build value for her to bother to invest

And honestly a lot of times that a girl hooks, she is as you said already attracted somehow, so a lot of the routines are not even needed

Attraction is not a binary on/off with women. There are degrees. When you have a little bit of attraction, you often need to increase the attraction as you game her. Always DHVing. I might walk into set and have a little bit of attraction right off the bat, but all this does it make her want to sit there and talk to me. I need to stoke that spark into a flame if I want to get enough compliance.

Notice that I've said that attraction gets the girl to sit and talk to me. I said earlier that it is value which makes a girl sit and talk to me. They're nearly synonymous. I'm saying the same thing. So we have degrees of attraction/value: a little bit will get me little investment from the girl, more will get me more. A little bit is all you need to get past the open. You need more to kiss her.

(none of this is to imply that compliance/willingness-to-invest is synonymous with attraction/value, they're different things, but in the really early game, her compliance is pretty much just proportional to her attraction/your value. As the game goes on compliance gets a little more complicated.)

MM is a really beautiful system, and makes for a really flexible PUA. I understand that it is hard to apply at first - I went through it too. Mystery overstates the importance of some things (DHV stories), and understates the importance of other things (fundamentals as the primary source of attraction/value in the first 10 seconds). But if you struggle through and make it work, really amazing things can happen.


oh and finally if the girl "refuses to engage after the open", don't force her to! Don't make it her job to keep the conversation fun! You just keep talking about the next thing, tease her, neg her, tell a story, just PLOW. Keep going. If you ask her to invest too soon, she'll just not bother! Build more value, THEN ask her to invest. Notice that putting the responsibility onto the girl to continue the conversation is a compliance test. Use it at the right time.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Thanks for the analysis!

I’d say I understand most of these things, I’ve come across them myself, I simply haven’t been able to apply them effectively.

oh and finally if the girl "refuses to engage after the open", don't force her to! Don't make it her job to keep the conversation fun! You just keep talking about the next thing, tease her, neg her, tell a story, just PLOW. Keep going. If you ask her to invest too soon, she'll just not bother! Build more value, THEN ask her to invest. Notice that putting the responsibility onto the girl to continue the conversation is a compliance test. Use it at the right time.

For example, with plowing I have generally felt that it makes the girls at best see me as tryhard like you described and at worst really irritated I keep talking to them when they don’t want me to.

It could be that I have not been stacking the right material, that said I do feel that it happens from very early, so I have started wondering what kind of fundamentals are really needed and how the approach vibe wise should look like.

And this was always my issue with these kind of methods, that although I can understand the steps and in theory I can learn what to say and go and say it, it feels like there is a huge part that is missing regarding how you express yourself while running all that material.

At least for me it has felt way more logical to focus on how to create a vibe, tune into it and go from there. It feels like this makes the real difference in the interaction.

I may go back into more structured game at some point in fact, it’s just that especially when I was starting with poor social skills, I felt I would look almost autistic trying to run a Mystery Method type of game.

 

[KJ Francis]

So you keep repeating yourself, and derailing posts that have nothing to do with spike disrupting the forum flow

this was from the seducer of the month thread - he was brought up by Atlas and not nominated - I was supporting the nomination (Spike being the topic of the month) with the purpose of understanding his game from the point of when the game opens (not what tennis shoes he wears for tennis, or what pre-game preparation). then you asked why and I answered. now this thread that got split has no flow - it is the open seas.

All that matters is if that strategy is getting you the results you want

the girl in that video said "I thought you were cute and wanted to meet you". there is nothing to discuss here...

specifically to learn social skills and how to interact and lay women

all the gen z fashion stuff is great and appreciated... and yes much more than 2% important... but yes we are here to nominate spike to better understand the interaction part

 

[KJ Francis]

That's what I thought all these things like negging, not talking to your target first in the group etc are for. To literally make the girl interested in you, because without them she wouldn't be.

Is that way off?

negging is more about making it appear you are not interested in her to buy yourself time.

the premise is 80% of our attraction towards women is on the replication side (fertility), and hers is flipped, to select more for survival value. even if she is looking the genes of a lover, and not provider value from you to protect the child and her pregnant vulnerability, she is still evolved to want these fitness indicators in the genes that impregnate her.

and these take time for her to evaluate. so in the nightclub environment with a really hot girl who has absolute validation abundance, showing interest before she's earned it is going to peg you as high attainability and below her level in the gene pool. so you do not pursue her at all, and instead communicate all your attractive qualities to other people (which she observes), and use the negs when she addresses you simply to maintain the frame of you not having any sexual interest in her prior to hers in you. it spikes her emotions, but the purpose is not really to cause the attraction.

once you receive indicators of her interest, then you are clear to begin establishing your interest in her over time as you get her to communicate her value to you.

 

[KJ Francis]

I’ve had a lot of times the situation in nightlife that she just doesn’t engage after the open, so it is not even possible to run some kind of game on her.

So although I believe in the power of running this routine game, it felt difficult to find enough sets to even practice it sometimes. And honestly a lot of times that a girl hooks, she is as you said already attracted somehow, so a lot of the routines are not even needed.

MM opens the group as a whole, then engages with the obstacles, not the target. it also involves sets that do not include your real target in the room to build preselection so that later sets will open properly.

if the girl has hooked early (not the social hook point, but past that, actually hooking interest), you may be past A2, so yes in that case you are into A3, which is getting her to qualify herself. so if you are using canned material, it would be more short soundbites here like "is there more to you than meets the eye", until later in the comfort stages you would be back to longer stories about yourself, while getting her to share hers too.

Mystery told me C1 is building trust and C2 is connection. In between those, you are changing locations.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

and these take time for her to evaluate. so in the nightclub environment with a really hot girl who has absolute validation abundance, showing interest before she's earned it is going to peg you as high attainability and below her level in the gene pool.

Isn’t it high value though to express your interest in the girl, fully believing that she would reciprocate?

That’s one thing I always struggled to understand regarding indirect game. Why would a really high value man not go directly and state his interest to the woman he likes, what does he have to lose?

I mean worst case scenario, she doesn’t reciprocate and it’s her loss for not getting with him, he will go find another.

I guess you can argue that the woman doesn’t know this, so if we want to maximise our chances we should care about showing it to her first.

Still though opening direct shouldn’t be an issue. Unless you go needy and start to chase, expressing to a woman that you find her attractive, is only saying that you could be interested if she plays her cards right, not that you are fully sold on her.

It could be that it is just so rare for her to meet someone who is direct and also abundant though, that she just assumes you must be pedestalising her.

 

[KJ Francis]

Yeah I think a direct approach can quickly demonstrate the attraction switches, with teasing and chase framing to keep attainability right and get you to A3 fast. I think indirect is to avoid any instant reactions like in a club or closed environment like shopping.

what does he have to lose?

her loss for not getting with him, he will go find another.

MM is meant to be a repeatable strategy for a solid plan to not lose the game.

it is all hinged on multiple sets for preselection and jealousy plot lines: David DeAngelo's line that "attraction is not a choice"

 

[Tryst]

For example, with plowing I have generally felt that it makes the girls at best see me as tryhard like you described and at worst really irritated I keep talking to them when they don’t want me to.

Yeahhhh... when you have to start plowing it's because something already wasn't quite clicking. As you're plowing, you're hoping that something you say/demonstrate will hook them, and give them a reason to invest. Maybe they realise your fundamentals are actually cool, or you say something interesting and they perk up. But, inherently, you're only plowing when they aren't reallly feeling you, so it doesn't always look good. Key thing is to come off unaffected and nonchalant - you're not trying to get attention, you just couldn't really imagine that they'd be ignoring you, because you're a high value guy and no-one ever ignores you.

Notice the tractor beam effect - you try to stop a moving target with some opener, she keeps walking. You plant yourself and just keep talking your opener at her... she doesn't care at first, but eventually, she slows down, stops, and comes back to you. This only works if you plant yourself. If you walk towards her, she walks away. This is a type of plowing, and shows how you have to come across like you're not trying, you just expect her to respond... because why wouldn't she? You're a cool guy whom women love.

It could be that I have not been stacking the right material

I went through this - "I just need to learn the right routines to make girls like me!"

that said I do feel that it happens from very early, so I have started wondering what kind of fundamentals are really needed and how the approach vibe wise should look like

Absolutely yes. If you're not familiar with walking up and getting IoIs just because you're there and they can tell you're obviously a cool guy, your fundamentals could get better. It's a combination of your fundamentals and material which gives off the vibe. Is it a high value, fun, non-needy vibe? Or something else?

it feels like there is a huge part that is missing regarding how you express yourself while running all that material.

Mystery doesn't really use this word "vibe", but I do. A lot. When I talk about the vibe, I'm not talking about some mysterious unresolvable intangible concept. The vibe is a function of your fundamentals and your material. You can discuss pickup perfectly well without mentioning vibe; vibe is just one way of defining the combination of fundamentals and material. Useful shorthand. Mystery and Lovedrop go into great detail about vibe in their other book, Revelations (highly recommended). They spend a lot of time analysing socialisation from a vibe perspective, instead of a value perspective (two ways of talking about the exact same thing). So what I'm getting at, is whilst MM never really talks about vibe, all the same info is there, just the word isn't ever used; he doesn't analyse specifically with vibe, but instead value. It's down to the reader to understand - if he does all the stuff in the book, he'll project a great vibe.

At least for me it has felt way more logical to focus on how to create a vibe, tune into it and go from there. It feels like this makes the real difference in the interaction.

Whichever way helps you learn and understand best! Personally I learned from a value perspective, and I find certain ideas easier to analyse from a value perspective. Other ideas are easier to analyse from a vibe perspective. Just different ways of looking at the same thing.

I may go back into more structured game at some point in fact, it’s just that especially when I was starting with poor social skills, I felt I would look almost autistic trying to run a Mystery Method type of game.

Structures game is great, and it's an amazing tool for developing real understanding and therefore real flexibility. It's like studying music theory instead of just hammering at a piano - it opens up possibilities. But also I see how it can be tricky - and I certainly had enough autism-lite moments whilst still figuring it out. It's part of the learning process - you're forcing yourself to do something which doesn't feel natural. This forces you to adapt, calibrate, and improve very quickly, because the punishment for getting it wrong is very harsh - you look autistic.

I'll never forget one of my very first MM style cold approaches: all was going well, there was an absolutely stunning model, my target. Her friend whispers to me, "Elle te trouve beau, elle est mannequin, et celibataire!" I negged her, and killed the vibe instantly. Trying to apply without really understanding will cause you to make many mistakes that a natural guy wouldn't make, but these mistakes force you to learn super fast, and once you do understand, you'll have a really subtle and flexible skillset. I love structured game. It's all part of the process.

Isn’t it high value though to express your interest in the girl, fully believing that she would reciprocate?

Tradeoffs. I think this is a really interesting discussion, but I would say that opening direct is inherently lower value than opening direct. Big conversation, and I can't go into it right now because sleep, but hopefully we discuss it soon. If you like direct keep doing it - after a few minutes, it's all the same anyway.

 

[Spike]

sometimes people will just type type and type things someone else once wrote and not stop to really thinking about what it is they’re writing. Such is often the case when the topic is the Mystery Method.

so early in set, you build value in other ways. Of course, your fundamentals build your value and get the initial hook. Then you go in with fun little quick canned routines. You tease, you neg, you laugh and have a good time

o fundamentals (face, height, style) get the initial hook, right?

THEN you game (tease, neg, dhv stories whatever ). Aka the things you do AFTER you’ve already gotten the initial hook.

simple.

You then go on to describe a situation where you fundamentals (face, height, style) FAILED to get you the initial hook required for her to engage you in conversation. And allow you to run your game (tease, neg, dhv stories whatever).

What does it mean for a woman to be "attracted to him initially"? You're saying that she saw his face, his style, his body-language, and they weren't attracted. Mystery says, "okay, cool. They don't like me right now based on my aesthetics, but hang on. As long as I DHV somehow else, they will still be attracted to me." So he negs, frame controls, DHV stories, demonstrates good voice, demonstrates willingness to walk, demonstrates social proof, etc - ALL of these things are DHVs

So no initial hook? Cool.

Solution: Run your game anyway.

PUA: [Opinion opener] bla bla bla so is that cheating?
Girls: [Excited, showing interest] omg wow that's CRAZY
Here you notice that the girls are interested and excited to talk to you.

However you give an example to illustrate this by describing the beginning of a conversation with a girl that you’ve already got the initial hook with. Not an example of the beginning of a conversation with a girl that you FAILED to get that initial hook with. Because she wasn’t attracted to your fundamentals.

What do you advise you do when a girl refuses to engage with you after your opener?

if the girl "refuses to engage after the open", don't force her to! Don't make it her job to keep the conversation fun! You just keep talking about the next thing, tease her, neg her, tell a story, just PLOW. Keep going.

Stack forward and keep plowing!

Yet…didn’t you just say

Now if you try to continue the momentumless conversation, she feels that you're trying to get something, your value plummets, she gets uncomfortable if you keep trying to engage with her.

And it’s of course going to feel momentumless because you didn’t get that initial hook. The more you try, obviously the more uncomfortable she’s going to get.

I might walk into set and have a little bit of attraction right off the bat, but all this does it make her want to sit there and talk to me. I need to stoke that spark into a flame if I want to get enough compliance

Well yeah. You got that initial hook. You’ve moved on to the next step. Gaming her

Notice that I've said that attraction gets the girl to sit and talk to me. I said earlier that it is value which makes a girl sit and talk to me. They're nearly synonymous.

They’re not. Getting get to talk with you due to attraction right off the bat = means you got that initial hook due to your fundamentals (face, height, style). You haven’t said a word to her yet (tease, negs, dhv stories, whatever).

Getting her to talk with you due to the value you built (negs, teases, dhv stories whatever) is a false equivalent. Because it requires that initial hook in the first place. Which isn’t what game is about.

Getting attraction is not what game is about. Game is about getting that attracted girl into bed.

Even so. Sometimes you’ll fail to get the initial hook even if she thinks your fundementals are amazing.

Scenarios such as:

she in not available, she has a boyfriend.

- The bitch shield is super high cause is a club full of dick horrible ratios of 20 guys per girl (when this happens a girl will be extremely uncomfortable and annoyed, she is getting hit up and she does not know is cause of you like her or she is the only thing in the club available to 50 dicks)

- she is in a rush in day game and is running late

- family members are there

- guy she is on a date with and she likes is there

- a bachelorette or birthday girl (were they may pact no to go home with anyone and they will all cockblock each other

 

[Spike]

the girl in that video said "I thought you were cute and wanted to meet you". there is nothing to discuss here...

Ok so because he got that initial hook due to the girls being attracted to his fundamentals, there’s nothing to discuss? He still has to game them lol. Which he does if you pay attention.

In the short 1 minute clip,

- After he gets called over by the dude and shakes hands with the girls, he demonstrates social savviness by not ignoring the dude and immediately making a beeline for the girls He chats it up a bit with the guy. All friendly humble shit. Which is a very effective game you want to run if you look and dress like a player. Which they already logically know he is.

- Gets both their numbers. Leaving it ambiguous as to who his real target is, and not leave a threesome out of the picture. Hints at this with his “teamwork make the dream work”.

- DHVs twice by declining to go get late night food with them (which is a hit or miss. Going with them would be optimal if you were aiming for a same night lay. But then also there’s that leaving them wanting more aspect. Risk you’ll have to take that these two won’t run into some other attractive guy at the restaurant and take advantage of their high buying temperature. But also demonstrates abundance. Because even if they do, you don’t care. Because you have so many other girls in your life that you don’t care if these girls hook up with someone else) because hes a man with principles. And won’t sacrifice it for some pussy. Which is abundant for him. And then invites them to a party.

So in the end the girls know that he isn’t thirsty or weird. Just a cool guy thst has a cool life. Which matches up with what they were initially attracted to.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

So in the end the girls know that he isn’t thirsty or weird. Just a cool guy thst has a cool life. Which matches up with what they were initially attracted to.

I don’t disagree with this and your observations regarding the approach, I also felt the same things.

I kept wondering though, was this the best way to game them for the highest percentage of getting to sex?

Because you can be really abundant, and frame it like you may meet another time, you may even have a threesome, all good things, what is the goal though really?

If it is to be abundant and cool all good, I feel these things are great too. If you keep running the kind of game he does though, it feels to me that you leave a lot of things to chance, and you don’t make the most out of the opportunities you get.

Even if you really are abundant, I cannot see how inviting the girls that open you to parties some time later is an optimal strategy to sleep with them.

 

[ChrisXKiss]

Notice the tractor beam effect - you try to stop a moving target with some opener, she keeps walking. You plant yourself and just keep talking your opener at her... she doesn't care at first, but eventually, she slows down, stops, and comes back to you. This only works if you plant yourself. If you walk towards her, she walks away. This is a type of plowing, and shows how you have to come across like you're not trying, you just expect her to respond... because why wouldn't she? You're a cool guy whom women love.

Yeah have been doing that, they do stop and come back sometimes, really depends though how busy/fast they are.

Absolutely yes. If you're not familiar with walking up and getting IoIs just because you're there and they can tell you're obviously a cool guy, your fundamentals could get better. It's a combination of your fundamentals and material which gives off the vibe. Is it a high value, fun, non-needy vibe? Or something else?

Yeah I have a feeling I know at least a part of the issue.

Won’t get into it too much to not derail, but basically I tend to have this idea when I am approaching that I am high value enough and the next step is to simply get to know each other to see if we are a good match.

So I end up not obviously doing things to increase attraction or spike her emotions, because I feel they are not needed, I am already valuable and the rest is just playing games.

I suppose this can get me a lot of reactions where the girl doesn’t buy into this value, and it feels unnatural to build a connection before that happens.
Which can make the whole thing feel like I am needy to get to know her.

Or if a girl is not very bought into my frame, I have caught myself not paying enough attention to it, because of a feeling that: Of course she likes me and would enjoy having sex with me, I just have to make her feel comfortable and escalate.

That’s also the reason why I was trying to understand the vibe part and how to come off fundamentally, because I really believe that getting an amazing first impression and moving from there is more aligned to my mindset and how I like approaching life.

 

[KJ Francis]

Ok so because he got that initial hook due to the girls being attracted to his fundamentals, there’s nothing to discuss? He still has to game them lol. Which he does if you pay attention.

In the short 1 minute clip,

- After he gets called over by the dude and shakes hands with the girls, he demonstrates social savviness by not ignoring the dude and immediately making a beeline for the girls He chats it up a bit with the guy. All friendly humble shit. Which is a very effective game you want to run if you look and dress like a player. Which they already logically know he is.

- Gets both their numbers. Leaving it ambiguous as to who his real target is, and not leave a threesome out of the picture. Hints at this with his “teamwork make the dream work”.

- DHVs twice by declining to go get late night food with them (which is a hit or miss. Going with them would be optimal if you were aiming for a same night lay. But then also there’s that leaving them wanting more aspect. Risk you’ll have to take that these two won’t run into some other attractive guy at the restaurant and take advantage of their high buying temperature. But also demonstrates abundance. Because even if they do, you don’t care. Because you have so many other girls in your life that you don’t care if these girls hook up with someone else) because hes a man with principles. And won’t sacrifice it for some pussy. Which is abundant for him. And then invites them to a party.

So in the end the girls know that he isn’t thirsty or weird. Just a cool guy thst has a cool life. Which matches up with what they were initially attracted to.

I should correct myself... she did not say I thought you were cute. She said I thought you were super cute.

I agree with your analysis, but it largely doesn't matter... he would probably be able to text either girl to booty call straight to his place in just a few messages (definitely the first girl). barring a threesome, the challenge is isolating, which I honestly think either girl would just solve for him herself once he sends an icebreaker text. sure there will be elements of game, but this is like analyzing a Leonardo DiCaprio lay report.

 

[Chase]

Great comments here from @Tryst.


@ChrisXKiss,

I feel one issue I’ve had with this idea about running routines to create attraction is that you need the girl to stay and pay attention to you. Sometimes they will, but I’ve had a lot of times the situation in nightlife that she just doesn’t engage after the open, so it is not even possible to run some kind of game on her.

Well, that happens. You are never going to get to a 100% opening hit rate unless you are opening VERY selectively.

The one time I gamed with Mystery, most of his opens went great. But one of his opens fell flat. Turned to a group of four girls, did his standard thing of, "Do you girl wanna see a magic trick?" and they just ignored him.

(to be fair to him, we had just had an argument and he was a bit peeved and not totally on the ball on that open; it was a "back turn Chase to punish him and open these girls in his face" open. He really did not have an ideal opening angle for that set; the girls were all closed off in a tight circle)

Anyway, the point of Mystery Method style opens is that they are generally pattern interruptive; that is, they are designed for the girl to say, "Huh? Wha...? Oh, that's interesting!" and snap to attention, whether she is 'attracted' to the guy yet or not.

Opinion openers, magic tricks, etc., are all intriguing and interruptive.

That’s one thing I always struggled to understand regarding indirect game. Why would a really high value man not go directly and state his interest to the woman he likes, what does he have to lose?

Being even an absurdly high value man does not make you immune to the sting of rejection.

Women WILL reject even absurdly high value men, because women have different tastes. Also, many women (~80%) are in relationships and most are not open to cheating, even with a ridiculously high value men.

Imagine you are Brad Pitt at a party:

BRAD: Hi you're beautiful. I want to put my peepee in you.
GIRL 1: Thanks Brad, that's sweet, but I am married.

BRAD: Hello, you too are beautiful. I want to put my peepee in you as well.
GIRL 2: I'm not just some tramp! I don't care if you ARE famous! Ick!

BRAD: Hello beautiful. I want to take you on a date and buy you flowers.
GIRL 3: Um, sorry, I'm kinda seeing someone. I loved you in Troy though!

BRAD: Hello beautiful. Can I have your number?
GIRL 4: Okay! But just so you know, I don't have much time for dating right now.

BRAD:



I'm being a bit facetious here, but even very high value guys get rejected a lot, and going direct always makes the rejection feel more "personal." If you aren't steeled for it it can wear on you.

Fun to do when you are high momentum and don't care, or if you are getting strong vibes from the girl that direct will work, or are opening in a situation where indirect just is not practical.

There is also the consideration if you are consistently coming in super high value, you will often trigger attainability problems going direct. e.g., the girl thinks, "I am not super hot or high status enough for a guy this high level to be approaching me. What, does he just want a pump and dump?" Like both of the Girl 3 and Girl 4 examples above, the rejection may well come down to "I don't think this guy is serious about liking me. I think he is just pulling my chain or out for a few pumps. To save my pride I need to reject him."

Indirect gets around the attainability problem because it's just chill conversation she can't reject you over -- then you start qualifying her, getting her investing, and all of a sudden she is in it.

Chase

 

[Skills]

There is also the consideration if you are consistently coming in super high value, you will often trigger attainability problems going direct. e.g., the girl thinks, "I am not super hot or high status enough for a guy this high level to be approaching me. What, does he just want a pump and dump?" Like both of the Girl 3 and Girl 4 examples above, the rejection may well come down to "I don't think this guy is serious about liking me. I think he is just pulling my chain or out for a few pumps. To save my pride I need to reject him."

Indirect gets around the attainability problem because it's just chill conversation she can't reject you over -- then you start qualifying her, getting her investing, and all of a sudden she is in it.

Chase

^ this also happens if you have bad ratios in clubs (one of the main issues with clubs now a days)... even with hot women the bitch shield will go up...

 

[Skills]

This is interesting. I know you have been following the Mystery Method and honestly I never really dived into it, but I always felt that it was built by Mystery to get girls that were not attracted to him initially.

That's what I thought all these things like negging, not talking to your target first in the group etc are for. To literally make the girl interested in you, because without them she wouldn't be.

Is that way off?

chris check this post and the responses is very comprehensive...

Mystery Method - Revisited

Dislcaimer By Teevster: I moved these posts from Karea's thread "Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?". I moved these posts because they covered a whole different subject and those great posts by Karea shouldn't be lost in the sea of posts (was a very active thread). I also felt this is a...

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