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Mystery Method - Revisited

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
4,762
Dislcaimer By Teevster: I moved these posts from Karea's thread "Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?". I moved these posts because they covered a whole different subject and those great posts by Karea shouldn't be lost in the sea of posts (was a very active thread). I also felt this is a key discussion to have that can lead to many fascinating posts.
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From what I see on youtube and around the web these days (with the exception of girlschase), MM was easily 10 times more powerful than anything that's around now. The hardcore technical game was killed by RSD in 2008 when they made this massive push towards "natural game" and everyone followed suit cause it sounds so fucking great. You can just be yourself! No need to do all this outer game work. Kinda like, "lose weight without exercise and while eating pizza."

MM had only one flaw, it lacked sexualization. Once you add that (MM chassis + a sexualized engine if you will), you have the most powerful game I've ever seen. Sinn's record 15 lays in a month (mix online game + cold approach), CJ's record 16 (pure cold approach). They both did MM with added sexualization. In fact I would say it's fair to say they were the first to combine the two styles effectively. So while some game knowledge is widespread, it's a massively watered down version compared to what was available ~2007 and for a few more years after that.

I also think game awareness was higher back then, due to prime time TV shows and a NY Times best seller. I remember I was dating a girl from Sydney and she had heard all the common openers tons and tons of times... all the fucking time. "Would you ever date a guy who's still friends with his ex" she actually started to wonder why guys seem to have so much trouble with this particular question that she constantly gets asked it... even retard openers from back then like "I'm the kissing bandid, you must kiss me before you can pass" I asked her have you ever heard that? And she just said "sooooo many times!!" That was in 2007.
yeah karea i talked to teevester privately about this, that what happens is when you join the community as a natural (me), you really don't understand stuff, and you tend to find the easy stuff, none sensical so is easy to mock technicals (i was guilty of this big time, now i have to deal with guys that were in the stage i was 10 years ago, so karma is a bitch, total nightmare, dealing with guys that are like i used to be ages you 50 years) anyways here is by former nextasf pyro:



The Basic Steps/Phases of Mystery Method​

A1 - Open​

A2 - Show her that you're worth dating/fucking​

A3 - Get her to tell you why she's worth dating/fucking​

C1 - Conversation, get to know each other​

C2 - Deeper Connection, Vibe, Kiss​

C3 - Intimacy, Heavy making out at the close location​

S1 - Makeout in the bedroom, escalate​

S2 - LMR​

S3 - Sex​

To me, this looks like a pretty standard advice these days. So why do guys have issues with Mystery Method?​

The Main Issues Guys Have with the Original Mystery Method IMHO:​

1. A lack of focus on just fucking, same night lays, pulling in less than 2-4 hours, and wracking up lay counts, and a much greater focus on getting numbers, getting multiple dates, spending closer to 7 hours to close the deal, and avoiding buyer's remorse.​

2. Not liking the A3 Qualification phase in particular because honestly it's kinda hard, annoying, boring, highly misunderstood, not easily understood, often seemingly ineffectual, seems kinda unnecessary, and essentially often lying because maybe you really are just talking to girl because of her looks. And in general, the whole thing lacks the sizzle of other pickup concepts.​

3. Not liking the particular ways that Mystery accomplishes his phases - peacocking, opinion openers, false time constraints, negs, dhv's, routines, magic tricks, storytelling, compliance testing, etc.​

4. Guys not liking the terminology. A1, C3, S92, P90x is really easily to mock (I just did) and for a myriad of reasons never really caught on (mostly because it's easy to laugh at a guy asking for help with his C2, and because it's in no other seduction teacher's interest to be using another coach's terminology.)​

5. Mystery claiming that this was the one true way, and the only real way, when it's obvious that there were tons of people having sex with hot girls that were totally unaware of MM.​

6. The A2 phase (Showing her you're worth fucking) only being comprised of a bunch of memorized DHV stories and not incorporating teasing, banter, swagger, attitude, cockiness, aloofness, etc.​

7. Guys don't like C1 Comfort and C2 Deep Comfort because it's boring, kinda unmasculine, and "bloody hell why this is taking way so long." And they see other guys in the bar having success with cavemanning, making out, grind dancing, etc.​

8. MM doesn't cover certain, often newer pua topics (for better or worse) like transitioning, rewarding, framing, AMOGs, vibing, teasing, bantering, investment, persistence, cavemanning, kino'ing, sexual state transference, heart melters, thin-slicing, etc. (or at least it doesn't seem to cover these topics on the surface)​

9. MM doesn't cover certain types of girls and certain situations like DTF girls, SNL girls, party girls, girls on vacation, dance floor game, modern fashion, cologne, cars, lifestyle, day game, parties, having cool friends, basic social skills, texting, etc.​

10. The routines get boring as hell after a while and a lot of the spark in the delivery dies when guys get sick of saying them. You become required to be an actor, faking enthusiasm, but most guys aren't trained Shakespearean actors.​

11. You get paranoid using the same material that other dudes might be using and aren't skilled enough to come up with your own stuff.​

12. Getting a girl using only another man's words/lines/routines is just never going to be a super solid foundation from which to start a long-term relationship. You gotta use at least some (most) of your own stuff - she's going to be dating you, not the lines and routines you read on the internet.​

13. It can lead you to becoming a long-term peacocked PUA, which might have worked as a long term identity a long time ago when all of this shit was way more underground (probably still wasn't a great idea), but then the VH1 show let the cat out of the bag and turned that fuzzy tap hat into a late night punch-line.​

14. Some of the MM ideas don't line up with science. Peacocking is for peacocks. Does it work for human males? Maybe, but you gotta be willing to take a lot of shit. Mystery never claimed otherwise. And using false time constraints because the first thing a group thinks is "when is this guy going to go away" isn't always true either. Sometimes, but a bar is a social situation, often it's totally unnecessary.​

15. A lack of focus on personal attitudes, personal beliefs, and inner game in general. Mystery Method was completely outer game focused, an attitude that does have quite a few merits but has lost favorability.​

16. A complete lack of focus on lifting and other attractive activities that make girls wet​

17. A total lack of focus or explanation on the reality that if you're trying to get the hottest of the hot girls, you're still competing with guys that have money, fame, drugs, tattoos, connections, and guys that generally act like scum (think drug dealers) and they're still getting chicks.​

18. Mystery never really learning much from anyone else near as I can tell. He came up with most of his stuff on his own and it seems as though he was never really interested in wearing a student hat, only the master or the teacher hat. So he could never add any new ideas to his method unless he came up with them himself.​

19. Mystery stopped innovating and updating his method, stopped participating in public or private forums, and pretty much didn't defend himself or his method from the haters/onslaught of people mocking it (often for their own marketing purposes.) I suppose he has no responsibility to update his stuff or to defend it from critics, but I wish he had.​

20. DHV stories being poorly done and usually coming off as bragging. Can DHV stories be used correctly and have the intended "attraction switching" effect? Maybe, but no one seems to be field testing them these days because they're so easy to do poorly. Other concepts such as breaking rapport, teasing, and DLV'ing started being used instead.​

Almost no one seems to do DHV stories in order to flip specific attraction switches anymore. Do these attraction switches exist? Can they be flipped? Maybe, this was a huge part of Mystery Method. In Mm, the goal was to flip as many attraction switches as possible. But you rarely hear of anyone going out and attempting to flip a series of attraction switches anymore, especially with DHV stories.​

21. People not liking MM's central focus on Evolutionary Biology and conveying those traits through DHV stories. For whatever reason, while the concept of "Being Alpha" is still okay, the concept of Evolutionary Biology is highly disliked and likened to voodoo pseduo-science​

Culturally, the Right in the United States hates evolutionary biology because they don't want to believe in evolution at all instead preferring to believe in religion, god, genesis, etc.​

The Left hates evolutionary biology because it's in opposition to a lot of feminism and also might be seen as a philosophy of "survival of the fittest" which goes against their welfare state programs that they champion. It also opens a pandora's box of questions about race that the left is completely and totally against.​

With many, many, many people identifying with either the Left or the Right in the United States and many other countries, they all have a vested interest in mocking or at least ignoring the entire field of evolutionary biology as much as possible.​

22. MM's focus and insistence on approaching groups, handling group dynamics, and backwards and forwards merging sets so you can have a better chance at landing the really hot girl at the far end of the bar. Guys do not want to approach groups, let alone learn how to backwards and forward merge sets. Even if it works and is superior than just approaching the girl, no one I know actually wants to do it, learn it, discuss it, post about it, or trouble-shoot it. People hate approaching, let alone approaching the entire group all at once.​

23. The Spontaneity Problem - Once you ran out of routines and lines, you actually had to have conversation skills, humor skills, leadership skills, people skills etc. And eventually, even if you had a 10+ hour stack, you are going to run out of routines and lines and you're going to have to open your own mouth and live your own life. And Mystery Method never truly, deeply addressed that. It never claimed to, but what it did claim was that it was the be-all, end-all. And for nerds looking to become ladies men, become better, and become cooler that wasn't exactly 100% true​

24. The whole thing just seeming like a whole bunch of bloody work. Guys just wanting an easier way.​

I honestly believe that the biggest issue Mystery Method had was Mystery's insistence that his was the one and only way and passing this attitude onto his students. If the material had accompanied an attitude of "this is one of the ways, this is the way that I use, it's not perfect, but it works for me, and you're welcome to use it if you wish" then it wouldn't have been as easy for people to laugh at.​

Then again, if Mystery was that humble, he probably wouldn't have created any of it in the first place.​

 
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Karea Ricardus D.

Tribal Elder
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Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
640
Ah, another discussion about the pros and cons of MM and natural game! Haven’t done one of those in a looong time. Haha. You won’t see me participate in many of these, but today my health is mega fucked. I’m a complete vegetable so I don’t really have the energy to do anything more productive today. Might as well elaborate on a few things since it’s being discussed.

In response to Warped Mindless:
I think some of it [natural game] comes down to personality types.
A bit about my background for context: I was “natural game” for the first 5 years of my PUA career. I did cold approach (both daygame and nightgame) for about 2 years before I found the community, that was 2002-2004. Then I studied game, but my outer game was still “natural” for another 3 years, until 2007.

I tried canned game for a while and it made my sets go worse and so I dismissed it. I also read Mystery Method newsletters and was like “ughhhh! WAY OVERTHINKING! What the fuck guys? Graphs and diagrams and acronyms and shit? What’s wrong with these nerds?” Dismissed it too.

Then in 2006, I got invited to the second Mystery’s Lounge and I was shocked! Guys just got way, way more lays than on any other forum. Next, I heard an audio by Toecutter where he explained why routines are valuable, and I found myself getting annoyed at his explanation. And I went... wait a minute, why would this annoy me?

I meditated on the question and realized the reason why the audio annoyed me was because on a subconscious level I knew he was right. And that meant I had to stop being lazy and start putting in a lot more effort than I was, if I wanted to make my outer game much more consistent.

A comedian can go on stage in front of thousands of people he has never met and get them to laugh. Consistently, reliably, every single time. He’s not that funny every day 24/7 when he is having free-flow conversations, even with his friends, leave alone with strangers. The reason he’s consistently funny on stage is because he’s using TESTED material, tried and true, rehearsed and dialed in.

Game is the same. There are certain gambits that will get a specific emotional response almost every single time. If you improvise you may get that response some of the time but you won’t be as consistent with it. In 2007 I finally understood this, and started to learn proper MM and it massively improved my game.

MM is more than routines btw, a lot more… but it’s what a lot of people focus on. There’s also group theory, merging, pawning, parading, peacocking (very misunderstood by most) and the list goes on and on… no need to write it all down here. Get your hands on the original VAH from 20 years ago if you can, it’s the most raw and real version of MM so I would still recommend reading it.
I first started with MM and did it for six months. I disliked it a lot and had crap results.
Yup. :) Same as me in 2005. I just wasn’t good at it and it actually wrecked my sets. MM is quite complex and pretty much impossible to learn by just reading about it. The ideal is in-field instruction with live demos. I did learn it from videos but that took about a year, just to get the basics down. Even then in retrospect I really should have taken a bootcamp. I thought I already know enough! Because I was natural game, right? Silly me.
Ran into a RSD guy and the stuff he taught me immediately boosted my results with women.
I’m close friends with one of the top level RSD guys. One of their old-school legends. I saw him daygame a couple of years ago and he was VERY good. After he finished a set I debriefed him and asked him, so? What did you say to her? He was like “oh, I just do natural game these days”. And I kept probing, okay but specifically, in this particular set, what did you say?

And it was basically the kind of game shit canned PUAs do too. He had just done it so much that he had internalized it. It’s true: he was gaming spontaneously and without thinking about outer game, but that’s because he learned canned game FIRST and had since brought it to unconscious competence by repetition.

The only real natural is someone who got laid early in his teens and hence developed the right beliefs, confidence and behaviors naturally in his formative years. For everyone else, natural game is on oxymoron. Otherwise there would be no community.

Imagine going to an MMA school and being told to just be confident, believe in yourself, just improvise in the moment, go with the flow… just hit the other guy as hard as you can! HIT HIM REALLY HARD BRUH! Or whatever “natural game” advice you can think of… you can translate it to martial arts and in that context it will quickly become apparent how absurd it all is.

Of course the advice is VALID. Of course you should be in the moment, and confident, and spontaneous. That is a GIVEN. It’s not “game”… it’s the ANTE to get into the game. A prerequisite, nothing more. The best PUAs have all that AND they have their material. They stack AND they improvise. This includes naturals, who say many of the same things over and over… that’s what the word “routine” means, by definition.

Bruce Lee said it best... I quote: “Here is natural instinct and here is control. You are to combine the two in harmony. If you have one to the extreme, you will be very unscientific; if you have another to the extreme, you become a mechanical man and no longer a human being.” Perfect take on martial arts. Perfect take on pickup also.
Little while later found Swinggcat and made my stuff much more sexual and again my results exploded. Since I didn’t have much success with MM I’m no expert on it AT ALL but would be very curious to hear your take on adding sexuality to MM.
Swinggcat’s sexual framing stuff is money, it really helped me too when I worked it into my game ca. 2008. Since your game is already sexualized, but you struggled with MM when you tried it, I would suggest doing it the other way round in your case. You should add MM to your sexualization, rather than adding sexualization to MM. Just study MM and see what you can incorporate without dropping the sexual vibe.

The reason we did it the second way is because we learned MM first. And then this guy CJ started to constantly post lay reports about SNLs. He did those by sexualizing his sarges that were otherwise strictly MM. He was also able to retain the girls as FBs, so it wasn’t “fools mate” (easy girls, yes girls, or just one night stands or club hookups).

It was pretty funny… Sinn was lead instructor at Mystery Method back then and he was like “this has to be bullshit... I’ll go meet this guy and call him out.” ...Sinn flew to Dallas to see CJ in field, realized it was all true and then moved to Dallas for a year just to learn from him.

And thus began the legend of Pai Mei… uhm I mean, the Dallas Crew. :) Hope that helps mate. By the way I estimate some of the GirlsChase crew’s game up there with the Dallas Crew’s (who have retired years ago), so you probably have all the gold on this blog and forum you could ever need.
 
the right date makes getting her back home a piece of cake

Karea Ricardus D.

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
640
In response to skills and pyro:
that what happens is when you join the community as a natural (me), you really don't understand stuff, and you tend to find the easy stuff, none sensical so is easy to mock technicals (i was guilty of this big time, now i have to deal with guys that were in the stage i was 10 years ago, so karma is a bitch, total nightmare, dealing with guys that are like i used to be ages you 50 years)
Haha… yeah, very true. Same story as mine. Although looking back, I was nowhere near as good a “natural” as I thought I was… at least compared to systematic PUAs. In any case, same story… I dismissed MM… cause I was all about being natural. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

I’ll go into some of pyro’s points too while I’m at it. I may be able to give a different perspective on it since I’ve been studying MM since 2005 (still studying it now), and I was actively using it from 2007 to 2012 (as much as daygame permits using it, that is – my work with group theory was limited, for obvious reasons). I sexualized my game in 2008… made a huge difference.

Pyro is right about the reasons why people don’t like MM or why it’s fallen out of favor. Some of the points he makes however are a misunderstanding of the method. This is the most common thing I see all the time: Someone hating on MM? I guarantee there’s something he hasn’t understood. Its an IQ 150 method… requires DEEP study. MM is not complete but it’s extremely solid.

I’ll reply to his 24 points from my experience.
1. A lack of focus on just fucking, same night lays, pulling in less than 2-4 hours, etc.
Yes, big weakness in Mystery’s game. He is still teaching these rules that I now consider limiting beliefs… I recently bought his latest video course and it is excellent, but it still has all these flaws in it. He hasn’t fixed them.
2. Not liking the A3 Qualification phase in particular
Qualification is worth learning, it’s a very powerful phase and can make a huge difference. When Sinn was a beginner he went from 1 lay a month to 1 lay a week or something by adding qualification to his game (don’t quote me on the exact numbers but it was something like that). A3 is the moment when she feels you have a REAL connection with her. It very often makes the difference between a flake and a date.
3. Not liking the particular ways that Mystery accomplishes his phases etc.
Hmm. “Not liking” compliance testing? “Not liking” story telling? These are very fundamental skills any serious seducer should have. It’s like guys want to be serious guitarists but “not liking the 9th chords, not liking the lydian scales, not liking transposing”...
4. Guys not liking the terminology. A1, C3, S92, P90x etc.
True, very nerdy. Valuable though. I use it all the time… he codified the phases of a seduction, like the periodic table of the elements is used in science. That makes it much easier to talk about what happens in field.

The M3 has to be properly understood to become valuable, and I suspect it’s simply above most people’s heads. I know I didn’t really get it when I first read it. I remember in 2005 reading a email newsletter from MM about A2-F2M… and A3-M2F… and BHRR… scratching my head. It’s a lot to take in.
5. Mystery claiming that this was the one true way etc.
Mystery didn’t say MM was the only way. What he said was the M3 (not MM) was a map of seduction, and that it is the most accurate map. That statement was entirely true at the time and is still largely true today.
6. The A2 phase (Showing her you're worth fucking) only being comprised of a bunch of memorized DHV stories and not incorporating teasing, banter, swagger, attitude, cockiness, aloofness, etc.
This is false. A2 in MM does incorporate teasing, banter, swagger, attitude, cockiness, aloofness. In fact I can’t think of any PUA who’s more aloof and cocky than Mystery. Watch his in-fields, dude’s mega aloof.

So this criticism stems from someone reading about MM and then imagining in their head what it probably looks like in field and then passing a judgment based on their own imagination rather than the actual thing. Obviously this is not going to be an accurate assessment.
7. Guys don't like C1 Comfort and C2 Deep Comfort because it's boring, kinda unmasculine, and "bloody hell why this is taking so long." And they see other guys in the bar having success with cavemanning, making out, grind dancing, etc.
Yeah… but these guys will be less consistent. Personally I have a whole bunch of fast lays, one in 20 minutes, two in 40 minutes and a whole bunch more in about an hour. But I also lost a bunch of girls by escalating too aggressively. And if you don’t have her in a private place yet when you get into arousal, you’re likely to fail at the extraction later.

Mystery didn’t hold off on escalating to sex until he had her home because he was shy. He did it because it’s more consistent. The highest probability move at every waypoint. “5 for 5.” In some cases you can escalate very quickly...

In other cases, this fast escalation will cost you the set, so it shouldn’t be the default or standard / only move. And you usually shouldn’t do it in public if you want more than a blowjob AND you want retention. (I agree Mystery is generally not sexual enough).
8. MM doesn't cover certain, often newer pua topics (for better or worse) like:
  • transitioning – yes, this is part of MM, he calls this “stacking”, usually either observational or non-sequitor
  • rewarding – haha. This IS a3!
  • Framing – yes this is missing in MM I think.
  • AMOGs – the AMOG material from the “Mind of Mystery” audios is the best I’ve ever heard on the topic. It’s being taught by Lovedrop though. Mystery usually befriends instead of confronting.
  • Vibing – true he doesn’t really teach this directly, but with enough field experience you learn... you get calibrated... vibing becomes natural. he gives guys the tools to acquire that field experience.
  • teasing – he calls this negging… people usually think of the harsh back-handed compliments when they hear the word neg, but some are just teases and banter (I prefer these)
  • investment – this is part of A3
  • persistence – IIRC he discussed this in the chapter about “moxie” in his original book
  • cavemanning – this is absolutely part of MM, he explicitly talked about it in his seminar videos decades ago. But, in isolation, not in the venue (see above).
  • Kino'ing – huh? totally a part of MM
  • sexual state transference – yes biggest flaw in MM is it lacks sexualization
  • heart melters – haha! This term was coined by CJ whom I mentioned above. Not part of MM, correct. Mystery’s comfort game is largely based on running a grounding routine for your identity.
  • Thin-slicing – I’m not familiar with this term in the context of PU.
So as you can see, here we have a guy writing a detailled breakdown of MM that sounds really knowledgeable because he knows some of the terminology… but it is ultimately written from the perspective of an outsider who does not have a proper understanding of MM.

For example: not only are the tools of “investment” and “rewarding” not absent from MM, as he claims. They are actually part of A3, a phase which he implies is redundant. These are two mistakes in understanding and a contradiction. You can’t say (1) these tools are missing and should be there, and (2) simultaneously say they’re redundant.

Most criticisms of MM I’ve ever seen are similar to this… they come from a place of a very limited and incomplete understanding (if any). pyro actually knows a lot more than most.
9. MM doesn't cover certain types of girls and certain situations like
  • DTF girls, SNL girls, party girls, girls on vacation – covered in MM as fools mate. He says enjoy, it’s a freebie. “A guy gets laid and says he got lucky. How right he is!” Classic quote. Does Mystery slow girls down who are already DTF for the sake of solid game? I don’t know… I would hope not. I made that mistake once, but not a second time.
  • dance floor game – true he says avoid the dance floor. I think for most guys this is good advice, dancing can be a great DHV, but for guys who that’s not the case, better stay away.
  • modern fashion – peacocking = fashion plus extra items to stand out from the crowd. Teevster does this too.
  • Cologne – he talks about getting girls to smell his cologne, smelling theirs, I don’t remember if he recommends brands.
  • Cars – true. I’d consider this entirely ancillary though. CJ actually developed the SNL tech (he coined the term) because he didn’t have a car for a long time (his car blew up – that was a funny LR).
  • Lifestyle, Parties, having cool friends – discussed in MM as “entourage game”
  • day game – true. It’s touched upon briefly but Mystery considers it bonus rounds. He’s definitely very night game centric.
10. The routines get boring as hell after a while
I definitely had this problem after about 5 years of running routines… not gonna lie. It’s worth it though cause it makes the sarges so much more consistent. If you’re playing for fun, ok drop them… if you’re playing for keeps, use the most powerful tools available.

Btw, you don’t need that much material, honestly 20-30 minutes of material is probably enough. Most of the conversation is still free flow and after sex you can really just chill with her for the rest of the relationship. I never run routines at all after the lay.
11. You get paranoid using the same material as other dudes
Yeah I haven’t found this to be a big problem, but I replaced most routines with my own material within a few months of learning MM anyway. That is what Mystery recommends. Most guys don’t do this… I did… everyone should.
12. Getting a girl using only another man's words/lines/routines
See point 11, and see the Bruce Lee quote in my previous post.
13. It can lead you to becoming a long-term peacocked PUA
This is what I meant earlier when I said peacock theory was misunderstood by most. Peacocking does not equal wearing a furry top hat. Mystery was into the goth scene AND he was a professional illusionist. So his style was congruent with his identity based on these 2 factors. He never told any of his students to buy a fuzzy hat or to paint their nails black. This is where some common sense helps tremendously. :)
14. Some of the MM ideas don't line up with science. Peacocking is for peacocks. Does it work for human males? Maybe, but you gotta be willing to take a lot of shit.
That is actually the point of peacocking. Dressing a little outlandishly is going to make people think you must be either very high status or a total weirdo. So they will give you shit and if you pass those tests, they will conclude it’s the former and you get a big attraction spike.
And using false time constraints because the group [wants you to leave]
Mystery doesn’t use the FTCs in every set. Use it when needed. It’s a tool for an artist, not a dogma… calibrate.
15. A lack of focus on personal attitudes, personal beliefs, and inner game in general.
Agreed, Mystery was all outer game, which is incomplete. By the same token, ignoring outer game is EQUALLY incomplete. It’s yin and yang. “You are to combine the two in harmony” – Bruce Lee (see above).
16. A complete lack of focus on lifting and other attractive activities that make girls wet
True. Mystery is a skinny lanky tall dude. Not sure he ever could get really buff with his 6’5 ectomorph frame. But I regret I didn’t get into lifting until 2010. And the community’s insistence that looks are a complete non-factor was obviously nonsense.
17. A total lack of focus or explanation on the reality that if you're trying to get the hottest of the hot girls, you're still competing [...]
The fact that there is competition for hot girls needs to be explained? Actually, Mystery does the math in his lectures and calculates how many times a hot girl has been approached since she came off age. But the whole point of his entire method is to become her most alluring option.
18. Mystery never really learning much from anyone else near as I can tell.
Mostly true.
19. Mystery stopped innovating and updating his method.
Mostly true. Some of his material is new in the latest video course… some of it is pretty cool… can’t wait to play around with it actually. But the overall method stopped evolving much a long time ago.
20. DHV stories being poorly done and usually coming off as bragging.
This risk exists for sure, but this is down to skillfulness. DHV stories can be done in a way where this isn’t an issue, if the PUA is skillful with it. More on this below.
Other concepts such as breaking rapport, teasing, and DLV'ing started being used instead.
All these three were part of Mystery’s neg theory.
  1. Breaking rapport is the very definition of negging.
  2. Mild negs qualify as teases.
  3. some of the negs are DLVs, for example: “I think I’ve been getting fat lately” (Lovedrop) or “can you hand me a tissue” → blow your nose in front of her (Mystery).
I don’t use these, but they were part of the material.

Almost no one seems to do DHV stories in order to flip specific attraction switches anymore.
Imagine you go to a restaurant and have breakfast. At the table next to you, some average-Joe looking boomer is having pancakes and you get into a conversation with him as he asks you to pass the syrup.

Scenario 1: Over the next 20 minutes you discover that he was special forces in the Vietnam war, then moved back to LA where he produced many of the most famous recording artists we see on vevo. He’s friends with 2 of your favorite musicians and owns one of the trendiest clubs in LA.

Scenario 2: Over the next 20 minutes you discover that he worked as a garbage man all his life, retired on a meager pension but he really loves watching late-night TV. Oprah Winfrey is his favorite, because she’s so nice! His favorite flavor ice cream is walnut.

Completely different perception. Same guy. The only difference is WORDS. Yes he has to do this in a subtle way so it doesn’t come across like he WANTED you to know these things. YOU happened to DISCOVER them in conversation. You will see him COMPLETELY differently.
21. People not liking MM's central focus on Evolutionary Biology and conveying those traits [due to politics]
Yeah politics is a total cluster fuck now. I have my thoughts on the whole thing but when it comes to game… it’s foolish to get distracted by it. Game is game. Neither SJWs nor MAGA have changed the core biology or psychology of human mating.
22. MM's focus and insistence on approaching groups, merging sets [etc.] for landing the really hot girl at the far end of the bar.
Yes, MM is HARD. Yes this is a major reason why it fell out of favor with the masses. Mystery wasn’t trying to “improve his dating”. Pickup for him was a life style... he lived for it. The same was true for me, and for many of the guys on Mystery’s Lounge.

We were all completely obsessed! It was the one thing we loved in life, our one true passion and a real life style. It wasn’t even about the girls, it was about the game per se, about mastering the art and the craft. If that’s not where your head is at then MM is totally overkill.

Pyro mentioned p90x in his post. Wasn’t their marketing something along the lines of “this program is so difficult it will probably kill you, BUT if you survive it, you will be fucking ripped.” So comparing MM to p90x is quite on-point. I’d compare natural game to diet pills in this context. An easy sell. Nothing difficult required.
23. The Spontaneity Problem - Once you ran out of routines and lines, you actually had to have conversation skills etc.
True. Everyone needs to get a life also, not just a routine stack. Mystery advises this, but he doesn’t teach natural conversational skills. But anyone who has issues with normal conversation probably needs more help than a pickup artist can give.
24. The whole thing just seeming like a whole bunch of bloody work. Guys just wanting an easier way.
Yup! Meanwhile an Elite Few on Mystery’s Lounge racked up hundreds of lays with hot girls using these methods. I was there, so was Vision, we have seen it all go down. Vision was actually there in person and hung out with all those guys, as were many other friends of mine (I was in Spain / Germany / Brazil / Japan / Australia etc. so haven’t met all these cats, but some of them).

In summation I would say (tl;dr):
  1. MM gets a bad rap because people don’t really know much about it. There’s far more to it than meets the eye at first glance (“memorized lines and goofy hats” is a total strawman).
  2. Understanding this complexity and depth requires a shit ton of actual WORK. Most people are lazy and shy away from this. You have to be a bit obsessive to get this deeply into game theory.
  3. People who learn MM but only superficially will actually get inferior results to natural game, as was Warped Mindless’s case, as well as mine initially.
  4. People who do learn MM properly will get laid consistently, as evidenced by his old private forums that were chalk full of LRs.
  5. MM’s main flaw is a lack of sexualization; we’ve covered this before. This makes MM incomplete in 2022 (and even in 2007). Read the girlschase blog.
  6. Regardless, MM is foundational knowledge. Blues, rock and jazz are outdated musical styles today, but you can’t be a great modern musician if you haven’t studied these fundamental styles.
  7. Refusing to study MM = drilling a hole in your knee with a large mechanical tool. There is a lot to be learned from this nerdy genius weirdo… and the results prove it.
In the end of the day, results speak louder than anything else. Results are the ultimate benchmark.

-Karea.
 

Skills

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In response to skills and pyro:

Haha… yeah, very true. Same story as mine. Although looking back, I was nowhere near as good a “natural” as I thought I was… at least compared to systematic PUAs. In any case, same story… I dismissed MM… cause I was all about being natural. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb.

I’ll go into some of pyro’s points too while I’m at it. I may be able to give a different perspective on it since I’ve been studying MM since 2005 (still studying it now), and I was actively using it from 2007 to 2012 (as much as daygame permits using it, that is – my work with group theory was limited, for obvious reasons). I sexualized my game in 2008… made a huge difference.

Pyro is right about the reasons why people don’t like MM or why it’s fallen out of favor. Some of the points he makes however are a misunderstanding of the method. This is the most common thing I see all the time: Someone hating on MM? I guarantee there’s something he hasn’t understood. Its an IQ 150 method… requires DEEP study. MM is not complete but it’s extremely solid.

I’ll reply to his 24 points from my experience.

Yes, big weakness in Mystery’s game. He is still teaching these rules that I now consider limiting beliefs… I recently bought his latest video course and it is excellent, but it still has all these flaws in it. He hasn’t fixed them.

Qualification is worth learning, it’s a very powerful phase and can make a huge difference. When Sinn was a beginner he went from 1 lay a month to 1 lay a week or something by adding qualification to his game (don’t quote me on the exact numbers but it was something like that). A3 is the moment when she feels you have a REAL connection with her. It very often makes the difference between a flake and a date.

Hmm. “Not liking” compliance testing? “Not liking” story telling? These are very fundamental skills any serious seducer should have. It’s like guys want to be serious guitarists but “not liking the 9th chords, not liking the lydian scales, not liking transposing”...

True, very nerdy. Valuable though. I use it all the time… he codified the phases of a seduction, like the periodic table of the elements is used in science. That makes it much easier to talk about what happens in field.

The M3 has to be properly understood to become valuable, and I suspect it’s simply above most people’s heads. I know I didn’t really get it when I first read it. I remember in 2005 reading a email newsletter from MM about A2-F2M… and A3-M2F… and BHRR… scratching my head. It’s a lot to take in.

Mystery didn’t say MM was the only way. What he said was the M3 (not MM) was a map of seduction, and that it is the most accurate map. That statement was entirely true at the time and is still largely true today.

This is false. A2 in MM does incorporate teasing, banter, swagger, attitude, cockiness, aloofness. In fact I can’t think of any PUA who’s more aloof and cocky than Mystery. Watch his in-fields, dude’s mega aloof.

So this criticism stems from someone reading about MM and then imagining in their head what it probably looks like in field and then passing a judgment based on their own imagination rather than the actual thing. Obviously this is not going to be an accurate assessment.

Yeah… but these guys will be less consistent. Personally I have a whole bunch of fast lays, one in 20 minutes, two in 40 minutes and a whole bunch more in about an hour. But I also lost a bunch of girls by escalating too aggressively. And if you don’t have her in a private place yet when you get into arousal, you’re likely to fail at the extraction later.

Mystery didn’t hold off on escalating to sex until he had her home because he was shy. He did it because it’s more consistent. The highest probability move at every waypoint. “5 for 5.” In some cases you can escalate very quickly...

In other cases, this fast escalation will cost you the set, so it shouldn’t be the default or standard / only move. And you usually shouldn’t do it in public if you want more than a blowjob AND you want retention. (I agree Mystery is generally not sexual enough).

  • transitioning – yes, this is part of MM, he calls this “stacking”, usually either observational or non-sequitor
  • rewarding – haha. This IS a3!
  • Framing – yes this is missing in MM I think.
  • AMOGs – the AMOG material from the “Mind of Mystery” audios is the best I’ve ever heard on the topic. It’s being taught by Lovedrop though. Mystery usually befriends instead of confronting.
  • Vibing – true he doesn’t really teach this directly, but with enough field experience you learn... you get calibrated... vibing becomes natural. he gives guys the tools to acquire that field experience.
  • teasing – he calls this negging… people usually think of the harsh back-handed compliments when they hear the word neg, but some are just teases and banter (I prefer these)
  • investment – this is part of A3
  • persistence – IIRC he discussed this in the chapter about “moxie” in his original book
  • cavemanning – this is absolutely part of MM, he explicitly talked about it in his seminar videos decades ago. But, in isolation, not in the venue (see above).
  • Kino'ing – huh? totally a part of MM
  • sexual state transference – yes biggest flaw in MM is it lacks sexualization
  • heart melters – haha! This term was coined by CJ whom I mentioned above. Not part of MM, correct. Mystery’s comfort game is largely based on running a grounding routine for your identity.
  • Thin-slicing – I’m not familiar with this term in the context of PU.
So as you can see, here we have a guy writing a detailled breakdown of MM that sounds really knowledgeable because he knows some of the terminology… but it is ultimately written from the perspective of an outsider who does not have a proper understanding of MM.

For example: not only are the tools of “investment” and “rewarding” not absent from MM, as he claims. They are actually part of A3, a phase which he implies is redundant. These are two mistakes in understanding and a contradiction. You can’t say (1) these tools are missing and should be there, and (2) simultaneously say they’re redundant.

Most criticisms of MM I’ve ever seen are similar to this… they come from a place of a very limited and incomplete understanding (if any). pyro actually knows a lot more than most.

  • DTF girls, SNL girls, party girls, girls on vacation – covered in MM as fools mate. He says enjoy, it’s a freebie. “A guy gets laid and says he got lucky. How right he is!” Classic quote. Does Mystery slow girls down who are already DTF for the sake of solid game? I don’t know… I would hope not. I made that mistake once, but not a second time.
  • dance floor game – true he says avoid the dance floor. I think for most guys this is good advice, dancing can be a great DHV, but for guys who that’s not the case, better stay away.
  • modern fashion – peacocking = fashion plus extra items to stand out from the crowd. Teevster does this too.
  • Cologne – he talks about getting girls to smell his cologne, smelling theirs, I don’t remember if he recommends brands.
  • Cars – true. I’d consider this entirely ancillary though. CJ actually developed the SNL tech (he coined the term) because he didn’t have a car for a long time (his car blew up – that was a funny LR).
  • Lifestyle, Parties, having cool friends – discussed in MM as “entourage game”
  • day game – true. It’s touched upon briefly but Mystery considers it bonus rounds. He’s definitely very night game centric.

I definitely had this problem after about 5 years of running routines… not gonna lie. It’s worth it though cause it makes the sarges so much more consistent. If you’re playing for fun, ok drop them… if you’re playing for keeps, use the most powerful tools available.

Btw, you don’t need that much material, honestly 20-30 minutes of material is probably enough. Most of the conversation is still free flow and after sex you can really just chill with her for the rest of the relationship. I never run routines at all after the lay.

Yeah I haven’t found this to be a big problem, but I replaced most routines with my own material within a few months of learning MM anyway. That is what Mystery recommends. Most guys don’t do this… I did… everyone should.

See point 11, and see the Bruce Lee quote in my previous post.

This is what I meant earlier when I said peacock theory was misunderstood by most. Peacocking does not equal wearing a furry top hat. Mystery was into the goth scene AND he was a professional illusionist. So his style was congruent with his identity based on these 2 factors. He never told any of his students to buy a fuzzy hat or to paint their nails black. This is where some common sense helps tremendously. :)

That is actually the point of peacocking. Dressing a little outlandishly is going to make people think you must be either very high status or a total weirdo. So they will give you shit and if you pass those tests, they will conclude it’s the former and you get a big attraction spike.

Mystery doesn’t use the FTCs in every set. Use it when needed. It’s a tool for an artist, not a dogma… calibrate.

Agreed, Mystery was all outer game, which is incomplete. By the same token, ignoring outer game is EQUALLY incomplete. It’s yin and yang. “You are to combine the two in harmony” – Bruce Lee (see above).

True. Mystery is a skinny lanky tall dude. Not sure he ever could get really buff with his 6’5 ectomorph frame. But I regret I didn’t get into lifting until 2010. And the community’s insistence that looks are a complete non-factor was obviously nonsense.

The fact that there is competition for hot girls needs to be explained? Actually, Mystery does the math in his lectures and calculates how many times a hot girl has been approached since she came off age. But the whole point of his entire method is to become her most alluring option.

Mostly true.

Mostly true. Some of his material is new in the latest video course… some of it is pretty cool… can’t wait to play around with it actually. But the overall method stopped evolving much a long time ago.

This risk exists for sure, but this is down to skillfulness. DHV stories can be done in a way where this isn’t an issue, if the PUA is skillful with it. More on this below.

All these three were part of Mystery’s neg theory.
  1. Breaking rapport is the very definition of negging.
  2. Mild negs qualify as teases.
  3. some of the negs are DLVs, for example: “I think I’ve been getting fat lately” (Lovedrop) or “can you hand me a tissue” → blow your nose in front of her (Mystery).
I don’t use these, but they were part of the material.


Imagine you go to a restaurant and have breakfast. At the table next to you, some average-Joe looking boomer is having pancakes and you get into a conversation with him as he asks you to pass the syrup.

Scenario 1: Over the next 20 minutes you discover that he was special forces in the Vietnam war, then moved back to LA where he produced many of the most famous recording artists we see on vevo. He’s friends with 2 of your favorite musicians and owns one of the trendiest clubs in LA.

Scenario 2: Over the next 20 minutes you discover that he worked as a garbage man all his life, retired on a meager pension but he really loves watching late-night TV. Oprah Winfrey is his favorite, because she’s so nice! His favorite flavor ice cream is walnut.

Completely different perception. Same guy. The only difference is WORDS. Yes he has to do this in a subtle way so it doesn’t come across like he WANTED you to know these things. YOU happened to DISCOVER them in conversation. You will see him COMPLETELY differently.

Yeah politics is a total cluster fuck now. I have my thoughts on the whole thing but when it comes to game… it’s foolish to get distracted by it. Game is game. Neither SJWs nor MAGA have changed the core biology or psychology of human mating.

Yes, MM is HARD. Yes this is a major reason why it fell out of favor with the masses. Mystery wasn’t trying to “improve his dating”. Pickup for him was a life style... he lived for it. The same was true for me, and for many of the guys on Mystery’s Lounge.

We were all completely obsessed! It was the one thing we loved in life, our one true passion and a real life style. It wasn’t even about the girls, it was about the game per se, about mastering the art and the craft. If that’s not where your head is at then MM is totally overkill.

Pyro mentioned p90x in his post. Wasn’t their marketing something along the lines of “this program is so difficult it will probably kill you, BUT if you survive it, you will be fucking ripped.” So comparing MM to p90x is quite on-point. I’d compare natural game to diet pills in this context. An easy sell. Nothing difficult required.

True. Everyone needs to get a life also, not just a routine stack. Mystery advises this, but he doesn’t teach natural conversational skills. But anyone who has issues with normal conversation probably needs more help than a pickup artist can give.

Yup! Meanwhile an Elite Few on Mystery’s Lounge racked up hundreds of lays with hot girls using these methods. I was there, so was Vision, we have seen it all go down. Vision was actually there in person and hung out with all those guys, as were many other friends of mine (I was in Spain / Germany / Brazil / Japan / Australia etc. so haven’t met all these cats, but some of them).

In summation I would say (tl;dr):
  1. MM gets a bad rap because people don’t really know much about it. There’s far more to it than meets the eye at first glance (“memorized lines and goofy hats” is a total strawman).
  2. Understanding this complexity and depth requires a shit ton of actual WORK. Most people are lazy and shy away from this. You have to be a bit obsessive to get this deeply into game theory.
  3. People who learn MM but only superficially will actually get inferior results to natural game, as was Warped Mindless’s case, as well as mine initially.
  4. People who do learn MM properly will get laid consistently, as evidenced by his old private forums that were chalk full of LRs.
  5. MM’s main flaw is a lack of sexualization; we’ve covered this before. This makes MM incomplete in 2022 (and even in 2007). Read the girlschase blog.
  6. Regardless, MM is foundational knowledge. Blues, rock and jazz are outdated musical styles today, but you can’t be a great modern musician if you haven’t studied these fundamental styles.
  7. Refusing to study MM = drilling a hole in your knee with a large mechanical tool. There is a lot to be learned from this nerdy genius weirdo… and the results prove it.
In the end of the day, results speak louder than anything else. Results are the ultimate benchmark.

-Karea.
yo karea just to make sure there is not a misunderstanding, pyro was actually defending mm(that was a response of someone on nextasf mocking mm), he is not a hater of mm... but yeah good stuff, the way you write reminds me of pe lol...(i told you this)...
 

Skills

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My problem with mm, as we discussed is sexualization as we all agree. The kino is pretty weak. The follow ups such as texting and follow up, weak. Adjusting to the issues of social media, none existent.. no approach invites... can not be really done in loud venues etc... I also don't know if the guys getting results back then, will get same results today it is a total different world... in nextasf we had a dude obsessed and cult follower of mm, he knew the method better than anyone I have seen and a very detailed journal....I forgot his name I think it was groundmastergeneral, can you guys help me with the name.... he had good fundamentals and boot camp and in mm groups etc.... he was not getting laid... is an outdated method. So of course as you pointed out most of us do things on the method since is social interaction and we can make it work...but not as intended....

I for example peacock, though different way and include dancing... I do the 3 bounce but my own version.... the how you guys know each other etc...

But second generation superior imho...
 

Warped Mindless

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My problem with mm, as we discussed is sexualization as we all agree. The kino is pretty weak. The follow ups such as texting and follow up, weak. Adjusting to the issues of social media, none existent.. no approach invites... can not be really done in loud venues etc... I also don't know if the guys getting results back then, will get same results today it is a total different world... in nextasf we had a dude obsessed and cult follower of mm, he knew the method better than anyone I have seen and a very detailed journal....I forgot his name I think it was groundmastergeneral, can you guys help me with the name.... he had good fundamentals and boot camp and in mm groups etc.... he was not getting laid... is an outdated method. So of course as you pointed out most of us do things on the method since is social interaction and we can make it work...but not as intended....

I for example peacock, though different way and include dancing... I do the 3 bounce but my own version.... the how you guys know each other etc...

But second generation superior imho...
That’s the right guy but I don’t know if the problem for him was MM or him being autistic; maybe a bit of both.
 

ulrich

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MM was my introduction to the seduction community and I have to say that I was very underserved by it.
Particularly the overuse of negs was something that plagued my game for years until I found “natural” game.

While I’d be open to try it again, I would add a big disclaimer saying that it is not to be used by beginners who lack decent calibration.

Looking at seduction as a such a mechanical process is a simplification and while it can help more advanced players find an order in chaos, it also works as crutches for guys with incomplete theory of mind.

I think MM should be ——> A method to systemize your interactions and get predictable results
And not ——> The ultimate guide to get laid for the clueless guy

In other words, if you are under 10 lays, this is not a method for you.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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yo karea just to make sure there is not a misunderstanding, pyro was actually defending mm(that was a response of someone on nextasf mocking mm), he is not a hater of mm...
Oh, okay. Yeah I didn't get the impression that he was being a hater, he seemed to emphasize some good points and some bad... trying to give it a fair review. I was just clearing up some misunderstandings in his posts, because these misunderstandings are very common.
but yeah good stuff, the way you write reminds me of pe lol...(i told you this)...
:cool:
MM was my introduction to the seduction community and I have to say that I was very underserved by it.
Particularly the overuse of negs was something that plagued my game for years until I found “natural” game.
did you take a bootcamp?
in nextasf we had a dude obsessed and cult follower of mm, he knew the method better than anyone I have seen and a very detailed journal....I forgot his name I think it was groundmastergeneral, can you guys help me with the name.... he had good fundamentals and boot camp and in mm groups etc.... he was not getting laid...
did he take a bootcamp?
...in 2005. I just wasn’t good at it and it actually wrecked my sets. MM is quite complex and pretty much impossible to learn by just reading about it. The ideal is in-field instruction with live demos. I did learn it from videos but that took about a year, just to get the basics down. Even then in retrospect I really should have taken a bootcamp. I thought I already know enough! Because I was natural game, right? Silly me.
That’s the right guy but I don’t know if the problem for him was MM or him being autistic; maybe a bit of both.
Yeah I know a guy like this too. Every instructor who hears about this guy says "oh, I can fix this guy with my method." (he's now been coached by literally everyone). He's still not getting the results he wants now, and he's been around as long as Vision and me. MM isn't gonna work for guys who are on the spectrum. It's extremely complex i.e. high level, that means high level SOCIAL SKILLS.

Just because a pickup can be analyzed and broken down like an algorhythm doesn't mean you can competently carry it out in the field with your left brain only... PU requires right brain skills, guys who are too stuck in their head will love MM theory but not actually get good at it in real life.

By the way this is a big part of what contributed to the bad name MM got. All these autists drawn to it and posting about it on the public forums and about all their failures and all the theory. No wonder everyone who hasn't actually taken a bootcamp or been on the private advanced MM forums thinks the method sucks lol.
But second generation superior imho...
Yes 100%.
 
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Karea Ricardus D.

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The mystery of yet another failure with the mystery method... solved.

EDIT: Btw "the overuse of negs" as you say is a problem with your execution of the method, not a problem with the method. Great example why it's almost impossible to learn MM by just reading about it.
 

ulrich

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The mystery of yet another failure with the mystery method... solved.

EDIT: Btw "the overuse of negs" as you say is a problem with your execution of the method, not a problem with the method. Great example why it's almost impossible to learn MM by just reading about it.
Yeah, might be.

Still the book was an official part of the method or so…
Not gonna say the method is bad but perhaps it was over marketed which led to a lot of guys meeting with an imperfect version.
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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Still the book was an official part of the method or so…
Also a misunderstanding. :) "Magic Bullets" was published by Savoy without Mystery's consent and against his will. It's not actually an MM book... there was a whole legal battle going on back then and it was a huge mess.

Alright guys, interesting as it is... I'm gonna have to wrap up my participation in this thread. I've had this conversation many times before, because there are a lot of valid criticisms of MM as well as a lot of invalid ones, and they do deserve discussion. I feel that purpose has been served.

Beyond clearing up the major misunderstandings (which can help someone avoid the mistake of discarding one of the most fundamental bodies of work that exists in our community), these kinds of discussions tend to veer into KJ territory.

In other words... I'd be a lot more interested in conversing about Mystery Method in the context of "how have you used it / are you using it / can we use it in the future" rather than "is this method outdated / stupid / overthinking / etc.".

So this will be my last post in this thread... if there's someone that hasn't been convinced by the 4 posts I made thus far, he will probably not be convinced by another 400 and so it would be a poor use of my time.

If someone has, however, become curious as a result of reading this, I'm happy to help. I think this thread is likely to continue getting bogged down with pros and cons though, with criticism and defense, so I shall at this point bow out and exit stage left.

Y'all know where to find me.

-Karea.
 

Skills

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What is second generation?
I see you keep mentioning it.


Cosy is cost of success aka Cody Lyons here is his explanation:


Crash course in second generation verbals for those unfamiliar

"Alright, so

At first you are thinking
MM did negs
DYD did cocky funny
SS did Octoberman sequence
And Ross Jefferies acted like a dog at the playboy mansion trying to sniff Carmen Electras butt

Not cool Ross… not cool

However this isn’t how second gen verbals work because we came from that same perspective as you guys
We thought to ourselves, geez, you don’t need to hypnotize the girl, actually BE attractive
and geez don’t play some power game trying to neg her, its just insecure and weird
also trying to be cocky funny is just so try hard and goes nowhere… you need real understanding of how to lead women!

So it left us to explore escalation and to perfect it
Ijjjji is great at escalation, so am I, so is teevs, so are a lot of guys here
skills is good at escalation, so is pureevil, etc etc
Its the MAIN staple skill
creating bubbles etc, smoothing through resistance by elevating buying temp etc
and to do it right you just need a girls attention, so verbals are not necessary

Because second generation had to develop this authentically sexy skill it became very independent from everything that came before
so poof, all that ss, all those negs, all that cf in the trash
Me too… I think it took me a few nights of experimenting with that stuff to be horribly traumatized and never wanna see it again
God that stuff was bad.

Anyways, so we evolved since then, and it is a damn good thing
Heck even ijjjji a first generation guy, EVOLVED to be a totally badass escalation guy
getting his vibes just right, to sweeten and quicken the effect of mutual attraction
Mingling, one of his concepts, is great in club, and a focus on kino, expressions, and flattery is a good first punch in anyones aresenal
I’ve been doing mingling since I started, so I get it, I love it

So if all that stuff works, and we don’t need those old things, then why are verbals discussed?
Well, heres the thing
Escalation works great in moments where escalation is plausible, you can amp up the possibility and make it happen
But escalation is a bit weak during other stretches of the interaction, like when her friends show up and deliver new energy (causing you to have to regenerate the mood)
or when she is hesitating to go away with you because… because,,,

Most guys then try to DIAL IT UP TO ELEVEN on the attraction dial in order to PATCH over this hole
But if you dial up the attraction, you also dial up the risk, leading to tail end blowouts
and those can be avoided by understanding a few dynamics

First is the theory of ASD
how women, going home with a totally physical monster of yum, is going to feel a bit guilty about it
shes going to be thinking “oh geez, I really did it didn’t I!”
and you will be like “doesn’t matter” be sexual
OK… but it doesnt actually address her issue, shes still thinking “gah, im being so crazy”

Second is the theory of resistance
All girls show resistance, and how a man overcomes that resistance will inform her behaviour
Sometimes certain resistances INCLUDE physical taboos, so she won’t allow touching
Therefor you can wind up looking toothless when those barriers arise
But they are RESISTANCE not disinterest, so they shouldn’t really be blowing it for you

Thirdly is the secret society idea
If you are on the inside regarding sex and sexuality, then girls will be more open with you than other guys
Thiscan be donenon-verbally but, a caveman isn’t secret society, hes just what they go for
so know you are being attractive to the society yes, but you probably arent showing you are one… yet
You might get close, they might suspect you are secret society, but they won’t know with confirmation until it is discussed

Fourthly is girl-coding
The secret language girls use
This is important in understanding that girls are incredibly fast on the uptake of implied meanings
but also VERY critical
They can quickly imply you are out for sex and a sexual guy if you are doing good physical stuff
But they will also reserve the right to criticise you for being see through

Fifthly is being frank about your intentions
knowing girls are sexually interested in guys
and not being a niceguy manipulator

Tail end blowouts occur from insuffiently convincing her of these things and allowing her doubts to set in around them

The second gen verbal comes from concepts like this for reasons I’ll explain in just a moment
See,
Initially when you do escalation based physical game, you do know all these things, but you kind of just do your best with it
You get around it with good tension, decent frames, leading etc
Beautiful

You also use some language here and there, but its not important what it is, more the physical stuff layered behind it, under it etc

Well, second gen verbals start from this point of awareness.
See basically in order to do verbals you need to think a bit further ahead
You need to think, yes I’m getting laid, but can I change HOW I’m doing it???
Can I change thhe dynamic of it?
Is it possible for a girl to follow a different pathway than the one I know?
And knowing what I know, how can it go differently?

Well it turns out, you can do it differently
By using the concepts above, and expanding on their utility
Basically you look at asd, you look at secrret society, you look at resistances, you look at frank intentions, girl coding, and you make a LEAP
You leap to the conclusion that ALL of those topics IMPLY one missing piece
They imply that you are not CONFIRMING OR DENYING certain doubts women have, you are just letting her doubts sit there

She doesnt KNOW she isnt a slut
She doesn’t KNOW without any doubt at all that you are secret society
She doesn’t KNOW what you think about sex (maybe you are just fluking it, shes seen it before)
She doesn’t KNOW that you can operate on her level of thought (completely or to what extent)
She doesn’t KNOW if you can be sophisticated or intelligent sexually (or if you are an unguided bulldozer)

And when you only do non-verbal none of those doubts get addressed

So you make the LEAP that if you address them, it might change things

Ok, so that is a hypothesis!
But does it ACTUALLY change things IF you address those concerns girls have?

Thats what you test.
You VERBALISE she isnt a slut (though not directly)
You VERBALISE your understanding of her secret society view on life
You VERBALISE feelings on sex
You VERBALISE the extent of your mind and its workings equal to hers
You VERBALISE a level of intelligence and sophistication regarding approaches you have

And by verbalising FREE HER FROM HAVING TO ASSUME OR GUESS ABOUT THE FACTS
She is then RELIEVED of having to guess
and thusly can INTERNALISE beliefs she would have otheerwise DOUBTED or not internalised beecause of fear of being wrong

So what actually happens when you do this right?
It creates a LEAP FORWARD in sexual subcommunication!
Because girls have to guess less.

Which, causes girls to not put the goal posts further and further away out of doubt, but bring them closer and closer to you out of confidence in what you said.
You evoke confidence in her, which causes her to contribute more, and
SHE KNOWS HOW TO CONTRIBUTE VERBALLY
and later will contribute physically

This evolved in second gen
It isnt a first gen nonsense idea
It is simply about verbalising things to free up the process of belief and internalisation

For example, someone nods at you to go get a tool from a tool box
You can surmisee that they need a tool, look at the job they are doing, and if you know the tools, pick the right one to give them
BUT if you are anxious, or don’t know the job very well, or are distracted
You would PREFER them to tell you the socket wrench and what it should look like

Its simple really
Verbalising, makes other people MORE CONFIDENT that they know what you want and why
Increasiing their efficiency

By taking the same toolbox and DESCRIBING it to girls
They get clued in
and help you, ratherthan fumbling around hesitating at times

Second generation verbal is an evolution from second generation physical game
by tightening in on the potential factors for later blowouts
its a safeety checklist of ideas you go through to make sure shes on the right page
IT DOES attract her, by putting you out as a self aware and sexually awake man
But in itself isn’t always enough, requiring teension and other dynamics to get you over the line
So you need good competancy in non-verbal to really heighten it
using tonality, body language, eye contact, kino, small maneuvers like whispering in her ear etc
vibing with her”
 

Teevster

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@Karea Ricardus D. ,

Amazing posts man! very enlightening. I just had to bring my own take on all this. I hope you will find some joy in my comment.

Remember when people said:

  1. Early Game: MM (Mystery Method)
  2. Late early game, early mid-game: RWS (Swinggcat)
  3. Late mid-game, early late-game: SS (speed seduction)
  4. Then go all Gunwtich? (GWM)

Lots of truth in that...

--------------------

Just like many others here, I also started out with MM and just like most, I did not understand it properly at first. To me at first MM was mostly:
  • Negs (didn't fit my personality... secondly, negs were designed for specific situations, they need to be used smartly and in a calibrated way - like any material)
  • DHV's (silly magic tricks and shit... later on I realized that magic tricks served more as an example for a DHV and not a template for it...)
  • Peacocking - I always had peacocking in the back of my head. I still love peacocking hard sometimes, and let me tell you, it is harder than most people think - not only is it hard to find outfits that actually looks cool and not clowny (very fine line between "unique and cool" and "gayish" or "clowny") but you also have to wear it properly (as fashion people says "learning to wear something") and deal with any bullshit or tests you may get from being different than the norm.

So obviously based on this very limited view of MM, I couldn't claim that I understood it fully back then. But over time, and after taking part in plenty of the discussions on mASF, nextASF, fieldjockeys (a little nod to you here @Karea) as well as discussing with people in private (do you know @Mr.Suave? He is @Pelusita 's wing and he was working as an coaching assistance for Love Systems back then - but let me say over the years he has become a true master at MM - with his own touch with tons of focus on entourage, and social proof) where tons of concepts from MM were discussed eventually gave me a much clearer picture and kept influencing my view on pick up, without me always being conscious that the techniques and concepts that influenced me were inherently MM techniques (over the year, I of course become conscious of it after watching hours of videos by Mystery and Lovedrop - Matadore didn't do it for me). Some examples:
  • Social proof
  • DHV-Stories (storytelling also serves as a way to build rapport and was also used in Speed Seduction - Juggler Method was also very focused on storytelling as well!)
  • Lock-in: underdiscussed technique that makes a major difference in "hooking" girls in post opening (post-A1).
  • Not showing interest or not showing much interest until she shows interest first (or until you have managed to make her interested enough).
  • Group theory! (feel free to read my new take on group theory)
  • Body rocking (so key! at least in nightgame)


Regarding qualification, is this technique originally an MM technique though?

Sidenote: Qualification in itself itself is a technique that can be tweaked and be used in so many different ways. @Razorjack for example was the king of qualification. He would use qualifiers as a mean to attract girls - since auto-qualifying would imply an "assumed attraction" (or "assumed high value" if you like) and indirectly convey high amounts of confidence, high amount of social value and set a clear frame of him being the prize (prizability).

--------------------

Now, social proof, DHV's, and qualification have for ever been a crucial part of my game. But in retrospect, I realize that I have been more influenced by MM than I initially though.

In fact to me, the main idea behind MM lies in the phases of A1 to A3 : namely its indirect approach to pick up. By this I am referring to the whole idea of not showing interest, or not showing more interest than she shows you, until she shows more signs of interest. MM was build upon the premise that you could "up her attraction" (I prefer the word compliance - more on that later), and that eventually, she will grow interested enough for you to show interest back (A3) through SOI's (statements of interest) and qualification in order to eventually escalate the vibe further (C1-3 to S1-3).

My style of game has always strictly followed this template.
  1. I approach indirectly, with a very aloof vibe, yet the material I deliver hooks them in and get them immersed (no different from A1 - although I very rarely use opinion openers).
  2. I would use compliance building techniques - usually I would go for sex talk related techniques over DHV's, even though I do not exclude using DHV's at times. This is all meant to up her compliance (not different from the regular A2). In the case of sex talk, I would 1. convey liberal attitudes towards sex to loosen her up - which some may claim to be a comfort building technique or an ASD buster. I will not disagree here, but it is also a great "hook" and compliance building technique because you pace her reality and you come off as an authority figure in her reality, and 2. I will set sexual frames with the intent of conveying sexual prizing, which is a form of prizability in which she sees you as a sexual prize as a result of perceiving you as a great potential lover who knows his shit and who will be able to provide GREAT sex. Yet, mind you that during the sex talk, I demonstrate attitudes and abilities, and knowledge that frames me as an attractive sexual guy - pretty much like a "sexual DHV" (I prefer seeing it as "frames" and "framing" for numerous theoretical reasons - more on that later)...
  3. And at no point do I show any or much interest until my material has done the work and upped her compliance.... - very reminiscent of A2. When delivering sex talk, I always do so without communicating much or any interest at all. The frame should always be "I am a sexual guy, who can have GREAT sex with you, but not a guy who necessarily will" (notice the mixed signals implied in that frame). This does not contradict the doctrines of indirect game.
  4. I will keep using compliance building material until she shows "enough compliance", in which case, I will proceed to start showing some interest back, qualify, create "its on moments" (which is a form of qualification) and occasionally, even use SOI's. This is clearly in line with MM's A3.

To me, Mystery Method is not defined by the singular techniques that constitutes it, but the overall strategy - the overall template is presents. I will not claim I run "pure" MM, even though I am totally capable of pulling my own form of pure MM (that is, using typical MM routines/techniques). At times (usually during periods of high momentum) I have had some fun going out and try to pull with a different method than my own: some nights I try to pull with pure MM (here is a report that is "kind of" MM based - with a heavy focus on social proof), some other nights with pure RWS (usually with an already compliant girl who is testy and annoying, with who I need to use techniques like push and pull in order to up compliance higher in order to pass through the BS and pull), and some nights... I would go for old GWM with a bit of Sleazy and Sixty's techniques (I had plenty of report on mASF where I used physical game... this report however involves me using a very Sixty inspired gameplan).

Mind you that I did say old GWM, since the new GWM (SMMA - seduction MMA) is quite more advanced than old school GWM and is more closely related to my current style (method) of seduction. I have also used SS at times, and I am very good with SS, but it is very situational in my opinion - it requires a calm environment and a 1-on-1 situation).

Playing around with different methods than your own (or your go-to) is a fantastic exercise for advanced guys. It forces you to see the bigger picture and can serve as an inspiration for your own method/game-plan.

But at the end of the day, I prefer my own method. Obviously.

(I guess I need to do an outing where I use GM style though ... or maybe not! maybe if I am in state! That said, I did have a period of using GM-style a lot back in 2008 prior to the discovery of "sexual prizing" and "sex talk")


--------------------

Now onto my criticism of MM:

  • Too obsessed with Social Value. I will not deny that social value is a compliance booster. But it usually fails to address the other dimension of social value, namely as a mean to make her feel comfortable hooking up with you on a social level (less shame in hooking up with the high value guy... also easier for her to rationalize her choice of mate if he is high value). Hence for this reason, I prefer to see social value as just one element of social frame (term coined by @Gunwitch - to which I added my own take on and my own techniques to apply). I prefer focusing on social frame, since it involves rapport, social proof, social value, investment, familiarity. All of these can work as a compliance booster and a comfort generator.

  • MM's view of social value and "comfort" is too narrow. Social value can up compliance (attraction), but also up the comfort level. "Comfort" (mostly rapport building techniques), similarly, can both up the her comfort levels and up the overall compliance (attraction). Hence why I prefer the term "social frame" since it takes both these elements into consideration.

  • In addition to this, the concept of "social frame" also incorporate the key element of making her feel that "you are her type of guy/a guy who is acceptable for her to hook up with" on a social level. Focusing on social value alone is NOT enough, since not every girl care equally much about social value (now, that said, Mystery generally did go to venues where social value played a key role though!). Some women care more about finding someone who "understands her" or "connects with her" or simply... "stimulates her" - to mention a few examples. "Social frame" on the other hand, takes all these different aspects into consideration.

  • Lack of sexualization - a criticism of MM that has been discussed to death. Mystery didn't need to focus that on sexualization because he was so good at playing the social game, that he would get away with lacking sexual frames (my theory) - in fact I think he was compensating his lack of sexualization with going overboard with social value... (and it is implied in his method due to a whole section on LMR, which, with "sexual game" occurs very rarely - can't remember last time I faced LMR). He was getting laid "despite" not focusing much on sex. However, this leads to uncessary difficulties in field, and a lack of efficiency. MM is known for leading to great consistency, but it truly lacks in efficiency in my opinion.

  • Some people, as you mentioned, added a sexual dimension to MM - and that I think is key. However, based on what I have been reading, they always looked at social value as the primary objective, when in fact, sexualizing and escalating the vibe should be the the primary objective. Social value is secondary to this: it is a mean to an end- a mean to help you be able to sexualize things, not an end in itself as MM usually seems to convey.

  • Overly Linear: I do believe that from A1-3 things are rather linear, and in which case MM is pretty spot on. However, post A3, I do not see things to be quite linear - it isn't all "comfort" (C1-3) and eventually "all sexualization" (S1-3). Things are not linear anymore at this point, they are a mix of everything... after A3, you may need to use techniques that reminds you a bit of A2 if you need to up her compliance a bit more (maybe compliance is dropping for a reason), and comfort building may go hand in hand with sexualization. Now that said, I doubt any of the MM practioner would follow the method in a linear fashion since they know the field doesn't match such a linear approach. Yet, making a model that is overly linear like this may be an issue for people discovering it as it opens up for a lot of potential misinterpretation of the model as well as mis-application in field.

  • Using words such as "attraction" instead of calling it what it is... "compliance" is a semantic issue I have with MM (and many other methods). Not a major issue, but one nonetheless. Say... you build "attraction" yet, in A3... you test for compliance (and not "test for attraction?)? It gets a bit confusing... so are they two distinct things or the same thing? If so can you generate attraction without generating compliance? It gets confusing. I prefer the approach that "attraction" is the natural biological attraction she may feel towards you from the get-go, and that anything you actively do to "get her" are just compliance building techniques. Things are much clearer this way. Now, I am not saying you cannot get laid with girls who are NOT attracted to you from the get-go (like some newer schools of seduction wrongfully claims), since what is ultimately required to get laid is COMPLIANCE.


--------------------

(as a slight epilogue to my post)

Now, the way I prefer looking at pick up would be:

  1. The goal is to escalate the vibe (from social to sexual), and escalate things logistically (isolate, isolate more, extract...)
  2. In order to accomplish this, you need:
a. Focus on sexual frames in order to 1. up compliance, 2 sexualize things, 3. make her comfortable as early as possible with the idea of you as a sexual guys (as early as you can, not earlier)​
b. Focus on social frames, in order to make her more easily accept the sexual frames.​
=>Both these will increase the compliance and lower the resistance to getting isolated and eventually extracted by you. It will also allow you to smoothly escalate the vibe to sex with less resistance.​

This is the ultimate approach in my opinion.

As you can see, there is a huge focus on "frames". My obsession with frames as the "ultimate weapon of mass seduction" came from my influence of Swinggcat (Real World Seduction - a method that never really crashed with MM in the first place - even though Swinggcat was a student of Ross...). With frames, you could dictate the interaction on your term and have so much more control over its outcome... and you could twist around any objections, any test, any resistance into something favorable to you and the interaction. This really seduced me (pun intended). Also, when I started out, the first thing I really mastered was frame-control and it quickly became my forte, and today it is my main strength as a PUA. Hence my overall focus, or dare I say, obsession, for frames is totally understandable I would say.


That all said, it is easy for me to come here, 15+ years later and criticize a 20 year old model that served as a prequel to most modern PUA tech (look away from the over-commercialized crap). The method worked, and their (real) practitioners were good. I may come off as nitpicking, but this debate is in my opinion not only interesting but also fruitful in the sense that it allows us to analyze game overall to a great extent, and follow our goal of always pushing the boundaries of how good we can get.

Best,
Teevster
 
Last edited:

Karea Ricardus D.

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Messages
640
@Karea Ricardus D. ,

Amazing posts man! very enlightening. I just had to bring my own take on all this. I hope you will find some joy in my comment.
Teevster! Thanks man. Now THIS is the kind of discussion of MM that I'm more than happy to continue participating in. Very constructive.
DHV's (silly magic tricks and shit... later on I realized that magic tricks served more as an example for a DHV and not a template for it...)
Correct, magic tricks are a "show skill", but they're only one example of show skills... there are many.
Show skills, in turn, are only one example of DHVs... there are many.
DHVs, in turn, are only one example of A2 techniques... there are many.
So magic is a subset of a subset of a subset of the attraction phase in MM. :)

a88.jpg


I'll elaborate a bit on this because I think it's useful to understand properly. As we know, women follow the "dual mating strategy", meaning they slot men in 3 categories (2 of which lead to sex, hence "dual".
  • the not-sexually attractive guy - he will be a friend or orbiter or not even part of her world at all
  • sexually attractive provider - he will "get sex from her", usually contingent on commitment. She is in control.
  • sexually attractive lover - they will have sex but it's not in the frame of "her giving it", it's mutual, often he is the one in control.
We could go into a whole discussion about "gene-shopping" here, which is a pretty interesting concept in itself and how the dual strategy really comes into play with her having sex with both these types of men, often on the same day...) but the main point is that quote by Geoffrey Miller that I posted on my "game now vs. 10 years ago" thread:
What women are looking for, in short term mating, is not just bad boys. They're looking also for guys who are really witty and intellectually exciting, or musically or artistically talented, or who really excel at lots of mental displays, even that might be completely useless and irrelevant in a long-term relationship, but that are still really impressive.
This is where show-skills come into play. I'm guessing this is what skills does with his dancing. It's what I did when I was a musician. It's what Al Pacino does in "Scent of a Woman" with the Tango. It's what Mystery does with his magic. It's what Ross does with NLP. This can generate a lot of attraction as per Geoffrey Miller's quote, but the point isn't magic. The point is the show skill.
do you know @Mr.Suave? He is @Pelusita 's wing and he was working as an coaching assistance for Love Systems back then - but let me say over the years he has become a true master at MM - with his own touch with tons of focus on entourage, and social proof)
I don't remember him, no. LS had tons of approach coaches and often I got the impression that Savoy hired intermediate guys for this job just to increase revenue. I will always remember this one instructor who was teaching "Love Systems Project Rockstar" who had a problem juggling more than 2 girls... I'm not sure what he means by rock star then?

So... suffice to say Love Systems IS NOT Mystery Method, and while they had a few outstanding guys teaching for them such as Future, Vision, Cajun, Sinn, CJ and Soul (off the top of my head), they also had a lot of guys I didn't rate. Sounds like Mr. Suave had his shit together pretty good though, I just don't remember him. Or maybe he got good after I left.
of course become conscious of it after watching hours of videos by Mystery and Lovedrop - Matadore didn't do it for me). Some examples:
Same... Lovedrop is Mystery's only sidekick that I really liked, I think he was absolutely brilliant.
  • Lock-in: underdiscussed technique that makes a major difference in "hooking" girls in post opening (post-A1).
  • Body rocking (so key! at least in nightgame)
Yes two very powerful techniques that haven't been mentioned on this thread before, as I said there is SO MUCH in MM, I'm still studying it 17 years after first finding it and I still learn new stuff from it, new nuggets.
Regarding qualification, is this technique originally an MM technique though?
No, but the BHRR model of qualification is.
Sidenote: Qualification in itself itself is a technique that can be tweaked and be used in so many different ways. @Razorjack for example was the king of qualification. He would use qualifiers as a mean to attract girls - since auto-qualifying would imply an "assumed attraction" (or "assumed high value" if you like) and indirectly convey high amounts of confidence, high amount of social value and set a clear frame of him being the prize (prizability).
YES! Qualification is worth learning/doing for this effect alone. It implies an assumed higher status/value than the girl.
  1. I approach indirectly, with a very aloof vibe, yet the material I deliver hooks them in and get them immersed (no different from A1 - although I very rarely use opinion openers).
Exact same as MM actually... I haven't seen opinion openers being used in MM since... 2007 I think. They were still teaching them in the Project Hollywood DVDs but after that they ditched them.
  1. I would use compliance building techniques - usually I would go for sex talk related techniques over DHV's, even though I do not exclude using DHV's at times. This is all meant to up her compliance (not different from the regular A2). In the case of sex talk, I would 1. convey liberal attitudes towards sex to loosen her up - which some may claim to be a comfort building technique or an ASD buster. I will not disagree here, but it is also a great "hook" and compliance building technique because you pace her reality and you come off as an authority figure in her reality, and 2. I will set sexual frames with the intent of conveying sexual prizing, which is a form of prizability in which she sees you as a sexual prize as a result of perceiving you as a great potential lover who knows his shit and who will be able to provide GREAT sex. Yet, mind you that during the sex talk, I demonstrate attitudes and abilities, and knowledge that frames me as an attractive sexual guy - pretty much like a "sexual DHV" (I prefer seeing it as "frames" and "framing" for numerous theoretical reasons - more on that later)...
Yes, I do this too... obviously not part of MM but in the context of having a conversation about sex, I drop hints about stuff she probably doesn't know about and has never heard of - in terms of female anatomy, sexual techniques, types of, amounts of and durations of orgasms, etc... it sets a very strong hook and makes her (if nothing else) curious to find out about all this pleasure she's been missing out on
  1. And at no point do I show any or much interest until my material has done the work and upped her compliance.... - very reminiscent of A2. When delivering sex talk, I always do so without communicating much or any interest at all. The frame should always be "I am a sexual guy, who can have GREAT sex with you, but not a guy who necessarily will" (notice the mixed signals implied in that frame). This does not contradict the doctrines of indirect game.
This is very interesting and different from how I set it up. I go into general sexual frames (without sexual prizing), then qualify and from that point onwards it is assumed that the two of us are on a trajectory towards sex, because we have both established a sexual frame AND connected via qualification. I add the sexual prizing much later as a final nail in the coffin if you will... maybe I should reconsider that. I'll need some practice first though before I make such a fundamental shift in my gameplan, so will reconsider this in 6 months.
  1. I will keep using compliance building material until she shows "enough compliance", in which case, I will proceed to start showing some interest back, qualify, create "its on moments" (which is a form of qualification) and occasionally, even use SOI's. This is clearly in line with MM's A3.
Great. Yeah a well-delivered A3 phase creates this, too. If you do A3 right it will shift the vibe completely from... two strangers having a conversation to... a connection has been established and it's now the 2 of you together.
some other nights with pure RWS (usually with an already compliant girl who is testy and annoying, with who I need to use techniques like push and pull in order to up compliance higher in order to pass through the BS and pull)
Have you tried calling out the neg warfare and disarming it, in this kind of situation? I've had that work (but I'm not sure it would always work).

  • Lack of sexualization - a criticism of MM that has been discussed to death. Mystery didn't need to focus that on sexualization because he was so good at playing the social game, that he would get away with lacking sexual frames (my theory)
My theory about why he chose to structure his game that way is actually that he WANTS to have every girl he games properly as a girl-friend. His entire game from beginning to end is structured towards a BF/GF dynamic. He has future adventure projections that he runs in C2 about "6 months from now we're watching TV together" as he's hugging her from behind. He has his "hijacked my brain campaign" that gives her the impression that he's starting to form the initial stages of a pair-bond, leading to a long term relationship. And the list goes on.

I'm not sure if he plays it this way because he doesn't realize: a sexual game can also be played with 100% retention and the option of converting the girl to a GF later. Or if he does it merely to be even more consistent? He HAS done 5 for 5 and more than once (I'm not sure how many times), so maybe his success ratio is actually still higher than yours and CJ's, although I'm not sure, AND he has a lot more practice since he started in the 90s... if CJ hadn't stopped and if you had another 10 years maybe you would also do the 5 for 5 again and again...
  • in fact I think he was compensating his lack of sexualization with going overboard with social value...
yeah I do think so, I think many girls are actually disappointed in this lack of sexuality... cause they want sex too... so then he has to compensate, otherwise he'd lose them, they'd lose interest, get bored / distracted
  • (and it is implied in his method due to a whole section on LMR, which, with "sexual game" occurs very rarely - can't remember last time I faced LMR).
Agreed, totally. I think Mystery's focus on the GF/BF dynamic during the C-stages of his game is what actually CAUSES the LMR he then had to come up with ADDITIONAL techniques for to get around it.
  • He was getting laid "despite" not focusing much on sex. However, this leads to uncessary difficulties in field, and a lack of efficiency. MM is known for leading to great consistency, but it truly lacks in efficiency in my opinion.
Agreed.
  • Some people, as you mentioned, added a sexual dimension to MM - and that I think is key. However, based on what I have been reading, they always looked at social value as the primary objective, when in fact, sexualizing and escalating the vibe should be the the primary objective.
Not sure which "sexualzed MM" PUAs you are referring to here, are you talking about Mr. Suave's game? The Dallas Crew's entire focus was on the sexual dimension FIRST and foremost.

CJ actually dropped the social value stuff ENTIRELY. He stopped doing social proof, peacocking, DHVs and he EVEN stopped doing group theory (winning over her group)... he basically said if you get her attracted well enough, SHE will handle her group. I haven't done this but I have no doubt it's true.
  • Now that said, I doubt any of the MM practioner would follow the method in a linear fashion since they know the field doesn't match such a linear approach. Yet, making a model that is overly linear like this may be an issue for people discovering it as it opens up for a lot of potential misinterpretation of the model as well as mis-application in field.
Spot on. MM is not linear and all advanced practitioners of MM do NOT practice it in a linear fashion, but this can be a little confusing for newer guys. That said, for someone who's just starting out, just doing it linear is probably a good way to get some experience under their belt until later they will be able to calibrate better and give the girl what she needs when she needs it rather than working off a checklist chronologically.
  • Using words such as "attraction" instead of calling it what it is... "compliance" is a semantic issue I have with MM (and many other methods). Not a major issue, but one nonetheless. Say... you build "attraction" yet, in A3... you test for compliance (and not "test for attraction?)? It gets a bit confusing... so are they two distinct things or the same thing?
hehe... good point! I never looked at it that way, but you're right. The way I look at it, she will give you compliance BECAUSE she is attracted. Sinn had something he called the "oh shit button".

If you're in set and you go "oh shit! I don't know where I am... does she like me? do I need to run more attraction? Where am I in the model?", then you press the "oh shit button" which is: qualify OR move.

If she complies with qualification or moving, then you have attraction. If she does not comply, then you don't. So then you know you have to go back to A2.
  • I prefer the approach that "attraction" is the natural biological attraction she may feel towards you from the get-go, and that anything you actively do to "get her" are just compliance building techniques.
Interesting distinction. I can see that being true, but is it always true? If a girl isn't attracted to me, but then she sees me perform my "show skill" see above, and suddenly she is attracted, she will now comply with A3 gambits that previously she would have rejected. Did I just build compliance or did I actually *create* attraction? I believe as per Geoffrey Miller's quote, actual attraction can be generated.

Another example of this would be social proof. A girl doesn't have attraction for you and doesn't pass your compliance tests. You open an adjacent set, and she suddenly realizes that other women like you and jumps on the band-wagon. Next time you come into the set, she will feel attracted. Did your opening the adjacent set create attraction or did it merely create compliance?

I agree it gets a bit confusing and it's probably largely a semantic issue. On that note wow dude your English has improved a lot since 10 years ago, you have become very good at laying out all your thoughts in a very clear and precise manner, back then I sometimes walked away a little confused from some of your posts but that has been fixed haa!
Now, the way I prefer looking at pick up would be:

  1. The goal is to escalate the vibe (from social to sexual), and escalate things logistically (isolate, isolate more, extract...)
  2. In order to accomplish this, you need:
a. Focus on sexual frames in order to 1. up compliance, 2 sexualize things, 3. make her comfortable as early as possible with the idea of you as a sexual guys (as early as you can, not earlier)​
b. Focus on social frames, in order to make her more easily accept the sexual frames.​
=>Both these will increase the compliance and lower the resistance to getting isolated and eventually extracted by you. It will also allow you to smoothly escalate the vibe to sex with less resistance.​

This is the ultimate approach in my opinion.
We're on the same page here.
As you can see, there is a huge focus on "frames". My obsession with frames as the "ultimate weapon of mass seduction" came from my influence of Swinggcat (Real World Seduction - a method that never really crashed with MM in the first place - even though Swinggcat was a student of Ross...). With frames, you could dictate the interaction on your term and have so much more control over its outcome... and you could twist around any objections, any test, any resistance into something favorable to you and the interaction. This really seduced me (pun intended). Also, when I started out, the first thing I really mastered was frame-control and it quickly became my forte, and today it is my main strength as a PUA. Hence my overall focus, or dare I say, obsession, for frames is totally understandable I would say.
Yeah so... when I said that MM was massively upgraded by the Dallas Crew via sexualization, that was also done with a large focus on FRAMES. This was all the rage on Mystery's Lounge in 2007 and 2008... we were talking about a concept called "force framing" and all kinds of other frame control techniques. @Vision had an excellent series of posts called "A Conversation About Frames" that with his permission I could cross post here.

Suffice to say what shifted MM for us and made it more consistent and faster wasn't really, at the core, the sexual aspect as much as the framing aspect. Because some of the frames weren't sexual, yet contributed to faster and more consistent lays. For example if you frame a girl as "being spontaneous and living in the moment", this will be conducive to a fast escalation to sex, even though it is not, strictly speaking, a sexual frame. We were obsessed with frames back then... it was probably a more important distinction to the original MM than the sexual aspect per se.
That all said, it is easy for me to come here, 15+ years later and criticize a 20 year old model that served as a prequel to most modern PUA tech (look away from the over-commercialized crap). The method worked, and their (real) practitioners were good. I may come off as nitpicking, but this debate is in my opinion not only interesting but also fruitful in the sense that it allows us to analyze game overall to a great extent, and follow our goal of always pushing the boundaries of how good we can get.
Yeah this was fascinating. I don't think Mystery is the best in the game anymore based on the limitations we discussed, he still seems to be incredibly consistent though, but what I really respect about him is that he basically came up with this whole mindset that we all had... to play the game not for results, but for the skill, for the art, for mastery... as a life style.

-Karea.
 
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DeepShadow

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Nov 29, 2021
Messages
109
Teevster! Grazie uomo. Ora QUESTO è il tipo di discussione su MM a cui sono più che felice di continuare a partecipare. Molto costruttivo.

Esatto, i trucchi magici sono una "capacità di spettacolo", ma sono solo un esempio di abilità di spettacolo... ce ne sono molti.
Le abilità di spettacolo, a loro volta, sono solo un esempio di DHV... ce ne sono molti.
I DHV, a loro volta, sono solo un esempio di tecniche A2... ce ne sono molte.
Quindi la magia è un sottoinsieme di un sottoinsieme di un sottoinsieme della fase di attrazione in MM.:)

a88.jpg


Elaborerò un po 'su questo perché penso che sia utile per capire correttamente. Come sappiamo, le donne seguono la "strategia del doppio accoppiamento", nel senso che classificano gli uomini in 3 categorie (2 delle quali portano al sesso, quindi "doppio".
  • il ragazzo non sessualmente attraente - sarà un amico o un orbitante o non farà nemmeno parte del suo mondo
  • fornitore sessualmente attraente - "farà sesso da lei", di solito subordinato all'impegno. Lei ha il controllo.
  • amante sessualmente attraente - faranno sesso ma non è nella cornice del "lo dà", è reciproco, spesso è lui che ha il controllo.
Potremmo entrare in un'intera discussione sul "gene-shopping" qui, che è un concetto piuttosto interessante in sé e come la doppia strategia entra davvero in gioco con lei che fa sesso con entrambi questi tipi di uomini, spesso lo stesso giorno.. .) ma il punto principale è quella citazione di Geoffrey Miller che ho postato nel mio thread "game now vs. 10 years ago":

È qui che entrano in gioco le abilità dello spettacolo. Immagino che questo sia ciò che le abilità fanno con la sua danza. È quello che ho fatto quando ero un musicista. È quello che fa Al Pacino in "Scent of a Woman" con il Tango. È quello che fa il Mistero con la sua magia. È quello che fa Ross con la PNL. Questo può generare molta attrazione secondo la citazione di Geoffrey Miller, ma il punto non è magico. Il punto è l' abilità dello spettacolo .

Non lo ricordo, no. LS aveva un sacco di allenatori di avvicinamento e spesso ho avuto l'impressione che i Savoia assumessero ragazzi intermedi per questo lavoro solo per aumentare le entrate. Ricorderò sempre questo istruttore che insegnava "Love Systems Project Rockstar" che ha avuto problemi a destreggiarsi tra più di 2 ragazze... Non sono sicuro di cosa intendesse per rockstar allora?

Quindi... basti dire che Love Systems NON È un metodo misterioso, e mentre avevano alcuni ragazzi eccezionali che insegnavano per loro come Future, Vision, Cajun, Sinn, CJ e Soul (al di là della mia testa), avevano anche molti ragazzi che non ho valutato. Sembra che il signor Suave abbia messo insieme le sue cazzate piuttosto bene, solo che non lo ricordo. O forse è diventato bravo dopo che me ne sono andato.

Lo stesso... Lovedrop è l'unico compagno di Mystery che mi è piaciuto molto, penso che sia stato assolutamente geniale.

Sì, due tecniche molto potenti che non sono state menzionate prima in questo thread, come ho detto che c'è TANTO in MM, lo sto ancora studiando 17 anni dopo averlo trovato per la prima volta e imparo ancora nuove cose da esso, nuove pepite.

No, ma il modello di qualificazione BHRR lo è.

SÌ! Vale la pena imparare/fare la qualifica solo per questo effetto. Implica uno status/valore presunto più alto rispetto alla ragazza.

Esattamente come MM in realtà... Non ho visto apri di opinione usati in MM dal... 2007 credo. Stavano ancora insegnando loro nei DVD di Project Hollywood, ma dopo li hanno abbandonati.

Sì, lo faccio anche io... ovviamente non fa parte di MM ma nel contesto di una conversazione sul sesso, lascio accenni a cose che probabilmente non sa e di cui non ha mai sentito parlare - in termini di anatomia femminile, sesso tecniche, tipi di, quantità e durate degli orgasmi, ecc... crea un gancio molto forte e la rende (se non altro) curiosa di scoprire tutto questo piacere che si è persa

Questo è molto interessante e diverso da come l'ho impostato. Entro in strutture sessuali generali (senza premi sessuali), quindi mi qualifico e da quel momento in poi si presume che noi due siamo su una traiettoria verso il sesso, perché entrambi abbiamo stabilito una struttura sessuale E siamo collegati tramite qualifica. Aggiungo il premio sessuale molto più tardi come ultimo chiodo nella bara, se vuoi... forse dovrei riconsiderarlo. Avrò bisogno di un po' di pratica prima di fare un cambiamento così fondamentale nel mio piano di gioco, quindi lo riconsidererò tra 6 mesi.

Grande. Sì, una fase A3 ben consegnata crea anche questo. Se esegui correttamente A3, sposterà completamente l'atmosfera da... due estranei che hanno una conversazione a... è stata stabilita una connessione e ora siete voi due insieme.

Hai provato a denunciare la guerra del neg e a disarmarla, in questo tipo di situazione? Ho avuto quel lavoro (ma non sono sicuro che funzionerebbe sempre).


La mia teoria sul motivo per cui ha scelto di strutturare il suo gioco in questo modo è in realtà che VUOLE avere ogni ragazza con cui gioca correttamente come ragazza. Il suo intero gioco dall'inizio alla fine è strutturato verso una dinamica BF/GF. Ha proiezioni di avventure future che esegue in C2 su "tra 6 mesi guarderemo la TV insieme" mentre la abbraccia da dietro. Ha la sua "campagna dirottata il mio cervello" che le dà l'impressione che stia iniziando a formare le fasi iniziali di un legame di coppia, portando a una relazione a lungo termine. E la lista continua.

Non sono sicuro che giochi in questo modo perché non si rende conto: un gioco sessuale può anche essere giocato con una ritenzione del 100% e l'opzione di convertire la ragazza in una fidanzata in un secondo momento. O se lo fa semplicemente per essere ancora più coerente? Ha fatto 5 su 5 e più di una volta (non so quante volte), quindi forse il suo rapporto di successo è in realtà ancora più alto del tuo e di quello di CJ, anche se non ne sono sicuro, E da allora ha molta più pratica ha iniziato negli anni '90...se CJ non si fosse fermato e se avessi altri 10 anni forse faresti anche il 5 per 5 ancora e ancora...

sì, penso di sì, penso che molte ragazze siano davvero deluse da questa mancanza di sessualità... perché anche loro vogliono il sesso... quindi deve compensare, altrimenti le perderebbe, perderebbero interesse, otterrebbero annoiato / distratto

D'accordo, totalmente. Penso che l'attenzione di Mystery sulla dinamica GF/BF durante le fasi C del suo gioco sia ciò che in realtà CAUSA l'LMR che ha poi dovuto inventare tecniche AGGIUNTIVE per aggirarlo.

Concordato.

Non sei sicuro di quale PUA "sessualizzato MM" ti riferisci qui, stai parlando del gioco di Mr. Suave? L'intero focus della Dallas Crew era sulla dimensione sessuale PRIMA di tutto e soprattutto.

CJ in realtà ha abbandonato COMPLETAMENTE le cose del valore sociale. Ha smesso di fare prove sociali, pavone, DHV e ha ANCHE smesso di fare teoria di gruppo (convincendo il suo gruppo) ... in pratica ha detto che se la fai attrarre abbastanza bene, LEI gestirà il suo gruppo. Non l'ho fatto ma non ho dubbi che sia vero.

A posto. MM non è lineare e tutti i praticanti avanzati di MM NON lo praticano in modo lineare, ma questo può creare un po' di confusione per i nuovi ragazzi. Detto questo, per qualcuno che è appena agli inizi, semplicemente farlo in modo lineare è probabilmente un buon modo per acquisire un po' di esperienza fino a quando più tardi saranno in grado di calibrarsi meglio e dare alla ragazza ciò di cui ha bisogno quando ne ha bisogno piuttosto che lavorare fuori una lista di controllo in ordine cronologico.

eheh... bel punto! Non l'ho mai vista in quel modo, ma hai ragione. Per come la vedo io, lei ti darà accondiscendenza PERCHÉ è attratta. Sinn aveva qualcosa che chiamava "oh merda pulsante".

Se sei sul set e dici "oh merda! Non so dove sono... le piaccio? devo correre più attrazione? Dove sono nella modella?", poi premi il "oh pulsante di merda" che è: qualifica O muoviti.

Se rispetta la qualifica o si muove, allora hai attrazione. Se lei non obbedisce, allora non lo fai. Quindi sai che devi tornare in A2.

Interessante distinzione. Vedo che è vero, ma è sempre vero? Se una ragazza non è attratta da me, ma poi mi vede esibire la mia "abilità di spettacolo" vedi sopra, e all'improvviso è attratta, ora rispetterà le mosse A3 che in precedenza avrebbe rifiutato. Ho solo creato la conformità o ho effettivamente *creato* attrazione? Credo che, secondo la citazione di Geoffrey Miller, si possa generare una vera attrazione.

Un altro esempio di questo sarebbe la prova sociale. Una ragazza non prova attrazione per te e non supera i test di conformità. Apri un set adiacente e lei improvvisamente si rende conto che piaci ad altre donne e salta sul carro della banda. La prossima volta che entrerai sul set, si sentirà attratta. La tua apertura del set adiacente ha creato attrazione o ha semplicemente creato conformità?

Sono d'accordo che diventa un po 'confuso e probabilmente è in gran parte un problema semantico. A proposito, wow amico, il tuo inglese è migliorato molto da quando 10 anni fa, sei diventato molto bravo a esporre tutti i tuoi pensieri in modo molto chiaro e preciso, allora a volte mi allontanavo un po' confuso da alcuni dei tuoi post ma che è stato risolto haa!

Siamo sulla stessa pagina qui.

Sì, quindi... quando ho detto che MM è stato enormemente potenziato dalla Dallas Crew tramite la sessualizzazione, è stato fatto anche con una grande attenzione ai FRAMES. Questo era di gran moda su Mystery's Lounge nel 2007 e nel 2008... stavamo parlando di un concetto chiamato "force framing" e tutti i tipi di altre tecniche di controllo del telaio. @Vision ha pubblicato un'eccellente serie di post chiamata "Una conversazione sui frame" che con il suo permesso ho potuto incrociare qui.

Basti dire che ciò che ha cambiato MM per noi e lo ha reso più coerente e veloce non è stato, in fondo, l'aspetto sessuale quanto l'aspetto dell'inquadratura. Perché alcuni dei fotogrammi non erano sessuali, ma hanno contribuito a lay più veloci e coerenti. Ad esempio, se inquadri una ragazza come "spontanea e che vive nel momento", ciò favorirà una rapida escalation verso il sesso, anche se non è, in senso stretto, una cornice sessuale. All'epoca eravamo ossessionati dalle cornici... probabilmente era una distinzione più importante rispetto all'originale MM rispetto all'aspetto sessuale in sé.

Sì, questo è stato affascinante. Non penso che Mystery sia più il migliore del gioco in base ai limiti di cui abbiamo discusso, sembra comunque essere incredibilmente coerente, ma quello che rispetto davvero di lui è che fondamentalmente ha inventato tutta questa mentalità che avevamo tutti ... giocare non per i risultati, ma per l'abilità, per l'arte, per la maestria... come stile di vita.

-Karea.
So how do you recommend using DHV and which DHV topics do you think are useful? I generally one thing I did when I showed traits of value if I mentioned them was to use them with humility for example by saying that my company has reached a certain level for luck or that I have achieved certain milestones in sport because I was motivated by suffering. Which are actually true but I accentuate them even more so as not to pass them off as someone who wants to brag. Perhaps in order to initially become a lover they should be avoided at least if they do not consider you socially suitable?
 

Vision

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Jul 3, 2020
Messages
324
Wow, there's definitely a lot going on in this thread. Good breakdown from @Karea here on MM and great counterpoints.

MM definitely needed to be evolved... and it was by a bunch of people and thrown out completely by others.

The thing that really made my game a lot more consistent was definitely the framing aspect of things. It was actually one of the things that first made A3 a lot more interesting and fun... instead of just showing a girl that I'm interested in her, I'm suddenly framing behaviors through compliments and stories, which made it a lot more interesting and got much better results.

I can post those conversations about frames that I wrote in here, no worries. I've actually had a couple people ask me if I'd post some of my old content in here.
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
4,762
Guys this is an updated modern version of mm structure by a seducer called AIMA from nextasf,:

"Mystery Method Updated to Year 2013 - [All-in-One] Attraction - Comfort - Sex​

Announcement: This is long. Read the first paragraphs and then pick the headline you want to read something about. Read what you need to improve on. Re-Read it after you have tried it. Ask questions. Become a better man. Or at least look at the pictures!


Mystery Method Updated to Year 2013
Attraction - Comfort - Sex


Disclaimer (Autumn 2012):
I wanted to write this for over a year now! The original Mystery Method (MM) got criticized a lot (both on old mASF and here on fasterseduction). While some call it way too slow or too theoretical the biggest argument has always been that it turnes people into social robots.
I will address all those points in my post and want to show you, that the idea and the system are still up to date and that by understanding it lots of people could get laid much faster and (most important) smoother.
In the german pickup community the Mystery Method is still pretty big and popular, and Ive seen many guys getting huge success with it. Im talking about fast lays, daygame, nightgame, etc. I myself get laid very consistently since I learned this, so I want to share it with you guys who helped me so much since three years ago when I entered your community.



The idea behind the Mystery Method

First off all: In my eyes the name Mystery Method is not a good term. It should much rather be called the Mystery Theory, since the origin of the Mystery Method is not to give people a guideline as what they have to do (aka no walkthrough of seduction). Its much more a theory of how seduction happens in the real world and how naturals (= people who never learned to pick up girls but are still successful at doing so) are seducing women.
In other words the idea is to look at what successful people are doing, understanding the system (that often the naturals themselves have not understood) and apply it to achieve the same (or more).



On social Robots and Routines

The original write up of the MM is full with so called Routines. A Routine (often also called canned material) is something specific that you do or say in a certain situation.

Examples:

Have you ever
- said Hi, Im xxx to a hot girl (Opening Routine)
- told someone about something funny that happened that day in your life (Story-Routine)
- gave a girl a spin (Kino-/Compliance-Routine)

Now in the old book most people misunderstood the idea of routines. They thought they just had to say the things that were outlined in the book (= using the right routines) and they would get girls into bed! The result were lots of people running around and asking girls Who lies more, men or women? (An Opinion opener that was recommend in the original book not very useful for most people, see below) . Doesnt sound very smart, right? Well people believed in that shit back in the old days! It went even worse: After not getting laid from saying Who lies more? they thought they had to follow up with some other things to say and used another routine. Some people tried to memorize routines for every situation possible in a dialog (e.g. What to say when she says yes or no gives answer A or answer B,C,D, etc.).

The ideas behind routines is a pretty different one. The goal is not to use the words that Mystery used or the words that any other famous player XYZ uses. Depending on your character and the person you are YOU NEED TO FIND YOUR OWN (!) ROUTINES! I get laid saying shit that wont work for most people, and many of my buddies do or say some stuff that just woudnt work for me people wouldnt believe me! And neither of us thinks about the shit we say, but we trap ourselves saying stuff again and again that we have used successfully in the past.

Attention: Im not saying its wrong to use other peoples routines in general, but you always have to ask yourself if this routine would fit your personality (= are you congruent with what you say?). Many beginners have not thought about that they were just unhappy with their life in general and tried to copy someone more successful. What they didnt understand was that it would have been much smarter to COPY THE SYSTEM BEHID THE WORDS INSTEAD OF THE ACTUAL WORDS BEING SAID!



The Phases of a successful sedution

In his original theory Mystery said that a successful seduction can be broken down into smaller parts (=phases). In his eyes there were three attraction-phaeses (A1, A2, A3), three comfort phases (C1, C2, C3) and three sexual phases (S1, S2, S3).

While for Mystery the phases were separated pretty strictly, we believe nowadays that the line between those phases is fluent. Often it is better to move forward or backwards in phases or keep element of earlier phases active during the whole seduction! I will give concrete examples below, as Im going to describe the different phases.



Opening (A1)

The main assumption behind opening is that in the beginning you are (in her eyes) having less value than she has. She is hot and good looking, gets approached by a bunch of guys and has guys texting her all the time, guys are nothing special, so why should you be special?

That is your starting point!

Now you know the saying there is only one chance to make a good first impression thats just what we want to do: Make a good first impression. But thats all. Many guys think they have to win the set over with the opener! HELL NO!! We know that she thinks your value is lower than hers and therefore we are prepared for that. You see, all the opener is really for is giving us the (best possible) chance to move to the next step (raising our value).

General guidelines:

- 3 second rule
- Tilt head to the side
- Speak loud and clear, suiting the situation
- Good posture (like a man!)
- If in doubt: Indirect opener
- Some guys recommend opening with your body not facing the target

Example:
Aima walking from one dancefloor to another, 2 girls are coming from the opposite dancefloor.

Aima: Hell noooooooo, you guys dont want to go there!!!! (Situational Opener)
HBs: wtf??? Smiling
Aima: They play the good music right over there (pointing to the dancefloor they are coming from) Here they only play Backstreet Boys all the time, and I know you guys HATE the Backstreet Boys (False cold read)
HBs: Noooo, we looooooove the Backstreetboys (reacting on false cold read)

How do I open which sets?
- Only females -> open ugly girl first
- Male in the set -> open male first
- big group -> big groups normally device into small sub-groups (aka not every is talking with everyone)! Pick a subgroup and treat it like a normal set.



A2 (Female to male attraction)

Now I told you that when you are opening the girl thinks her value is higher than yours. If you have done the opening good you may already have build some attraction (mostly with your body language), but hopefully you have (at least) bought yourself some time. In the next phase (A2) you want to concentrate on raising your value (in her eyes). To be more concrete, you want to raise your relevant value towards her, meaning you either have to raise your value (DHV = Display of higher value) or you have to lower her value (DLV = Display of lower value in the meaning of recognizing something about her that lowers her value (be careful with these!)). By raising your value she will become attracted to you! This is because people in general (males and females) like to find a sexual partner that has higher value. (Value does not mean a higher position in society or more money value means much more!)

In other words you can say that attraction is nothing else but having high (higher) value (from her point of view).

While the original MM mostly concentrated on creating attraction with words, todays methods offer a much wider spectrum of things you can do! Think of anything you can create attraction with this is the point to use it!

Some tools are

- DHV-stories (included because its the biggest part of the old MM)
- Delivery / Congruence (same)
- Kino escalation (very big today)
- Passing shit-tests (see below)



DHV-stories

To understand the idea of displaying higher value you first want to understand what kind of things are of value (=attractive) in her eyes. While this is obviously something that is different from women to women, here are some things that many women are attracted to

- Preselection (= There are other women in your life, you treat them good, you are showing unneedyness and eventually make her a little jealous)

- Social Proof (= You have many friends, many people love you and therefore you cant be that bad of a guy, but must be a pretty cool guy on the other hand)

- Leader of man (= Being the so called alpha other men look up to you and would like to experience/ live your life, like to hear your stories, etc.)

- Protector of loved ones (= You protect the people you care about and you show the girl that she can trust you, she can feel save and secure around you)

- Stability (=You have a life and goals , you have either motivation, ambition or a job/financial security)

- Confidence (= being yourself and standing your man, but in the most positive way, you do what you want but you are reasonable (see below))

- Being reasonable (= Having reasons for the things you are doing in your life, not doing anything bad without having a reason, etc.)

Now the first five of those above are the so called Attraction Switches. Imagine them like a light switch they can either be turned on or turned off. What you want to do is turn on as many of those switches as possible, but once a switch is turned on, you dont need to focus on this switch anymore.

That is a common mistake that many beginners do, they are for example already preselected in her eyes but keep going and going about how many women will want to fuck them. No matter how subtle he does it, she will not understand why he displays that again and again and may eventually start thinking of it as bragging! Bragging is something lower value people do therefore your value will sink even though you tried to do the right thing! So turn on a switch and move to the next!

So how do you implement those DHVs in your game? Certainly not by bragging!


Preselection
Bad example: Im having a lot of sex!
Good example: HB talking about whatever Aima: Haha, I know what youre talking about! Lately my bed is squeaking, I should really repair that! When shes asking how you know that, just use a false disqualifier (= what? Noooo, Im still a virgin, what do you think of me?).

Social Proof
Bad example: I know a lot of people
Good example: Use peoples names in your story and wave your friends, have them come over to say hi, etc.)

Leader of man
Bad: Everyone wants to hear my opinion
Good: On Thursday I have another presentation for my guys I had to promise them!



Delivery / Congruence

Mystery talked a lot about delivery and congruence. What he meant was that the stuff that you do and say must fit your character (congruence) or at least must seem like its fitting your character (because you delivered the routine like someone with a fitting character would).

Many people look at the routines that Mystery used and ask themselves How the fuck could that work? If I would say stuff like that, people would laugh at me and give me weird looks!




Now what you have to understand is the following: When Mystery entered a room, most people were looking at him, because he was 1. very tall and 2. was wearing crazy shit to draw attention to himself (peacocking). People would open him all the time just because he looked like some guy from another world. If you have that in mind, you can understand how saying the stuff he said could actually attract women!

Now Im pretty sure you are not like Mystery, you are more normal I guess (at least I am). So now you have to think on what YOU can say or do that works for YOU in YOUR SITUATION to create attraction. Mystery found his routines, you have to find your routines! You will recognize that some stuff fits your character (= congruence) and you will also recognize that you get better the more you use your routines (= your delivery gets better and you will seem even more congruent).

A few hints to help you improve the delivery:

- Dont move too frantically
- Point out the hook line of your story THAT was BY FAR the SICKEST THING that EVER happened to me in the subway!
- Use breaks
- Use your hands to underline what you say
- Imitate peoples voice when talking about them
- Try to make the story as lively as possible

Why do I give hints on your delivery? Because even if you talk about something that happened to you (= a story you are very congruent with, because it happened to you) you do still want to deliver the story in a way that people have fun listening! (= good delivery).

Bad: I once worked at the set of CSI Miami, it was fun.
Good: You know CSI Miami? You will NEVER BELIEVE how they actually shoot those scenes!! (and then you go on!)



Escalation:

See this great post of Warped Mindless in the Hall of Fame. (i edited this to link here)

Dont think escalation is as unimportant, it is most important! But escalation by itself is such a big topic and some much smarter people have written up their stuff already, no need for me to do that! Take any good post about escalation (not only physical escalation but also escalation of the vibe) and apply the stuff!



Passing shit-tests

A shit-test is a thing the girl says or does to test the males willpower. Most often the woman wants to see how far can I go with him? or tries to press the male into a lower value position (therefore raising her own relative value).

Basic examples:
Do you do that often? I mean pick up girls (Trying to lower your value)
You just want to have sex, I can see that! (Also trying to lower your value)
Would you buy me a drink? (Would he do that for me? Does he like me that much already? Have I done enough to own that drink, or is he just trying to buy himself into my pants?)

Now shit-tests are very special when it comes to creating attraction, and thats why I (and many other experienced players) love them so much: A shit-test is like a fork in a road! After a shit-test you will either have more attraction (if you pass the shit-test) or you will have less attraction (if you fail to pass).

For me girls that do shit-test a lot are by far the easiest targets, because they will shoot one shit-test after another at you and by passing each and every one of them your attraction will skyrocket in no time! (If you really want to deal with a girl like that is another question, think about the hot-crazy-scale of Barney Stinson from How I Met Your Mother). For this you obviously need to practice how to pass those tests! I will give a few examples, but you will have to find solutions that work for you! This is where experience plays a big role!

Example 1:

HB: I dont just have sex with everyone!
Aima: Well I really dont understand all that hype about sex, I mean without sex none of us would be here right? Sex is just a natural thing to do when two people are attracted, damn people even had sex long before they could talk! (cred: Teevster, check out his sextalk guides for more refraiming advice)

Example 2:

Player 60yearsofchallenge walking up to two strippers
60: Hi, Im 60
HBs (pissed): Go away!
60 (genuine and humble): I just wanted to introduce myself since you guys look like fun
HBs (staring at him, angry)
60 (holding the EC, genuine and humble)
HBs (cheering up): Wow, you got balls! We like you! Sit down!

Generally if you feel like you get shit-tested, just look her straight in the eyes and then after a short pause slowly turn your head away, not saying anything!



Attention! Important news regarding A2

Creating attraction and raising your value is the hardest part (!!!) of the whole seduction process! You can spend your whole life trying to become better at creating attraction (= raising your value). No matter what some gurus tell you, you will never be able to attract any girl. But using what we use can help you get the best out of yourself right now. Dont worry if you have problems raising your value in an interaction its normal! And think about it that way: After you have raised your value, the rest of the game is not nearly as hard (not saying it is less important quite the opposite, as you will see).



A3 (male to female attraction)

During A2 you have raised your value higher than her value (in her eyes). Now the girls wants you (= you are the prize) and you give her the chance to win you over! And we do it step by step (very important!!).

Why do we do it step by step if the girl wants us already? Because the more you make her invest into you, the stronger her connection to you will be. Also we are making use of the human psychology: By giving her a chance to improve her own value (= qualifying to us) we make her work and therefore invest into us.

Old example from the german community: Imagine you have saved money for five years and worked hard to buy yourself the car of your dreams, a red Ferrari Smooth Edition! And imagine further that on the day you buy the car, you win the lottery and you win the exact same car, so now you have two identical red Ferrari Smooth Edition in your garage. You dont need the same car twice, so you will sell one of the two. They are the same, same color, same engine, both brand new. Which one will you sell? The red Ferrari you worked five years for? Or the one that just landed in your hands?
Most people (and I agree) would sell the car from the lottery, because they would feel some kind of connection to the car they worked for (not to mention the fact that you can tell everyone this is my dream car that I worked hard for and earned myself!).

Its the same with women and their men they will stick to the one they worked for! So lets make her work a bit!

So once again: We give her a chance to impress us (= improve her value by qualifying to us), to make her invest. In other words we make her (!) give us reasons (!) to like her (!).
Read that last sentence once again, its the base concept of A3.

So how do we do that?

- Compliance
- Bait Hook Reel Release
- Screening (male to female), Qualification (female to male)

There is no straight line between those three things, since they all work for the same goal.



Compliance

A Compliance test (often also called hoop) is like a verbal or nonverbal hoop you hold for the women to jump through. Verbal compliance tests are often questions, but they can also be simple statements!

Examples:
Verbal:

Can you cook?
Do you do sports?


Non-Verbal:

Can you hold my glass?
Give me your hand?


Most interactions are compliance tests. Asking for her name is a small compliance test, having sex with her is a big compliance test. Same thing is she is borrowing you money or you ask her to buy you a drink/ pay the bill.


If she takes the test (= jumps through your hoop) she gets a rewards (= Indicator of Interest from you to her), if she is not compliant (= not jumping through the hoop) you give her an IoD (=Indicator or Disinterest). The idea is make her feel good when she is compliant (= jumping through the hoop) and withhold good feelings when she is not compliant. Important: The IoD is no punishment, you dont want to make her feel bad! You just dont want to make her feel good either!

Soon she will connect being compliant with having a good feeling and will therefore be even more compliant. Eventually this will lead to her being compliant to the idea of sex (this can happen very fast).

Most good players in Germany like to combine Compliance with Bait Hook Reel Release (BHRR), see below.

Beforehand two important points!

First: Be aware that compliance is super important! During the whole interaction up till the sex happens, you want to increase the compliance just like you increase the kino escalation! Because she has been more and more compliant all the time before, chances that she will have LMR are much lower, since she will have good feelings connected with following your lead.

Second: Be aware not to install negative compliance!

Example:

PUA takes her hand, gives her a spin.
PUA (making fun of her): Haha, what was that?

This will build negative compliance, she will connect following your lead with a bad feeling (= you making fun of her). Therefore chances are lower that she will follow your lead later on!

Instead use a push/pull (Reel/Release, see BHRR below):

Reel: Uhhh, very sexy ! (IoI = Indicator of Interest)
Release: I give you a B+ (IoD = Indicator of Disinterest + DHV (Humor), Roleplay)







Bait Hook Reel Release (BHRR)

BHRL is also part of the original Mystery Method and probably the thing I have least experience with! Its quite complicated to do during normal talking, but you can throw it in from time to time! Some people in Germany really dig it and have good success, some really good guys even claim it to be the most important technique in A3. That is the reason why I will explain the system in a few words.

As explained above the idea is to make the women work for you, and exactly that is what we are doing here. Imagine a fish that you want to catch during fishing! You use your bait in the hope that the fish will hook, you reel it in, but then instead of eating it you release it into the water, therefore starting the whole process again! Thats what we do with the women: We give them a chance to qualify (bait), when she qualifies (hook) we set some positive compliance (reel /pull) and then give her a slightly push, showing her that she has still not won us completely (release / light push).

Examples:

Bait: Give me your hand (= Compliance Test), trying to spin her
Hook: Gives her hand and does the spin
Reel: Uhhh, very sexy ! (IoI = Indicator of Interest)
Release: I give you a B+ (IoD = Indicator of Disinterest + DHV (Humor), Roleplay)

Bait: Do you do sports?
Hook: Yeah just today I was jogging for one and a half hour
Reel: Thats cool, I like people who stay fit (IoI)
Release: but I dont like jogging myself, its just too boring! I prefer (IoD, said friendly and smiling, not insulting! Remember we only want a slight push to set some positive compliance! If you ruin the Reel with your Release she will have a bad feeling and she will probably not be as motivated to hook again (because she combined the hook with a negative feeling)).


Dont think of the BHRR as something that you have to do conversation will become like an interview and predictable if you use this all the time! Instead think about it in a bigger picture you want to give her a chance to qualify, she may even hook and talk for a bit, talking back and forth (her qualifying to you) and then you can set a good Reel (pull) and add a Release (little push).

Bait: How was your weekend? Any big adventures or traveling? (Compliance test)
Hook: bla bla story of her weekend in Miami, both of you talk back and forth
Reel: Wow you are really cool! (IoI)
Release: (laughing, kidding) I mean as far as I can tell, after all we just met here in the club and you know what kind of strange people run around when its dark (IoD + DHV (Humor)).

You can also give her Hoops when she asks you something.

Example:

HB: How old are you?
Aima: Have a guess

You make her work and invest for information about you.


What do you do when the girl is not compliant (= not jumping through your hoop/ not taking your compliance test)? You react with an IoD and an additional DHV. Its actually quite easy:

Aima: What do you like to do in your spare time?
HB: I dont know meet some friends and stuff (= lame boring answer / being to cool to give a real answer, etc.)
Aima: (ironically, raising eyebrow, deadpan voice): Wow, Ive never heard anyone ever say that! Tell me more (= IOD + Humor this works because she is already attraced after A2).
(Do this without having build attraction in A2 and you will kick yourself out of the set! Just saying there is a time to use ironic comments and there is a time not to use them).

Alternative: Looking in her eyes, saying nothing, after a pause slowly turning head away and looking away, silence.

In addition you can basically apply everything on this board about push/pull, just make sure you set the right compliance!



Screening (male to female), Qualification (female to male)

This is pretty much common sense, but I still want to lose a few words! Of course you could use basically ANYTHING as a compliance test. But instead you should use the time effectively and use compliance tests that screen if the lady is the kind of girl that you are looking for.

Bad Example:
What do you think about horses? is a compliance test. But I dont give a fuck weather she cares about horses or not! So I should rather use a compliance test that at the same time tells me something about her that I would like to know!

Better:
Are you adventurous? (And if she says yes): Interesting! When was your last adventure?

I like high heels a lot, so I often talk with girls about their shoes!

You are wearing no heels tonight? Why is that?
Nice shoes how high are they?
When asked weather I like shoes I love high heels, they emphasize every womens legs tits and ass, simply delicious!

With the statements above I show the girls what I like (high heels) and therefore give them a chance to say what I want to hear, they qualify themselves (=trying to make me like them).

Often girls tell me how they are not into one night stands, simply because they think that would make them seem slutty and of low value. But by refraiming sex as something normal, they often open up and tell me how much they love sex and tell me their favorite positions or tell me kinky sex stories!

Now probably everyone prefers those stories compared to some talking about horses. When talking about topics you like you dont need to fake being interested, but are actually interested! The things you say will become more congruent (remember we dont want to become incongruent just because we are in A3 now).

In other words you want

- talk about things you are interested in
- give them chances to say the right things!

You can also use this to shape the girl in a way you want. If I screen for a LTR I will qualify her differently than when Im looking for a ONS. As I said, its common sense, I dont screen her for being faithful when I want her to cheat on her boyfriend with me. And I dont screen her for being slutty when I want her to fall in love with me (but I will still screen her for being sexual of course).

Once again attention: Sometimes the girl just has nothing interesting to say to your question! Accept it and laugh it off! Please dont just give her an IoD for being honest with you, okay?



How do I recognize if I have enough Attraction (A2 A3 Transitioning?)

The line is not clear, most people I know try to transition after they have gotten their first IoI from the girl (this can happen extremely fast (seconds) or take a lot time (several minutes). The idea is to assume attraction and just throw out one or two compliance tests. If the jumps through the hoop, you move on, if she does not jump/not qualify herself, you go back to A2. Switching back and forth is no problem, as long as she qualifies herself in the end.

YES! Sometimes women can be very attracted and are still not qualifying. An experienced player will recognize that and simply move on to the next phase (some advanced players even skip A3 completely to be faster in bed with the hottie), but I recommend all beginners/intermediates to do normal A3 to play it save.

Rule of thumb: Learn and apply the system before you modify its basic concepts!



Comfort (C1, C2, C3)

First the most important thing: The game is played in comfort! In other words: Comfort is the most important part of the game! This is the part where you have gathered enough resources (attraction) to build something long lasting (= a true connection).

Now some of you may just be out for the quick ONS, and its 100% true that you can lay girls without doing comfort (what I mean is doing only very little comfort, just enough to make her feel secure) I will address ONS again later. But talking about comfort now: if you want to see the girl again or (god forbid) you want to have more than just meaningless sex with her, this is the thing you want to concentrate on! Also in my experience comfort is extremely important with girls that are not into ONS (yes, those are out there!). Additionally, comfort will make your numbers solid (my numbers are more than 95% solid), which is extremely helpful when you cant lay her that very night (due to logistics or her period or whatever). Even more important: the more she thinks of you as her soul-mate, the more effort she is willing to put into the whole interaction (and the more effort she will put into the sex)!

What Im talking about is girls bringing you presents, girls wanting to do anything to please you (in bed and elsewhere), girls canceling other things just to see you, girls texting you good night before they go to bed and girls being there for you in case you ever need someone. Ever wanted to get treated better than her ex boyfriends without even being her boyfriend? Ever wanted to have a girl become your solid girlfriend? All this and much more is comfort! Let me repeat again: The game is played in comfort.

I have two charts that will show you the difference between attraction and comfort! First thing you have to understand is that attraction is emotional (!) and comfort is logical (!). Attraction will make her feel like she wants you, comfort will make her understand why she wants you (= give her reason).


Look at the chart below you need all three (attraction, comfort and closing) for a successful and strong seduction.




Comfort 1.jpg


Without attraction first, you will fall into the friend zone, and we know its hard to ever get out again.
Without comfort she will not feel a connection with you! But why is that? Look at the second chart I brought you guys:



Comfort2.jpg


As I said attraction is emotional and comfort is logical! Now the problem with an emotional connection (= only based on attraction) is that its fading away pretty fast. Think of it as Out of sight, Out of mind! Its part of how our brain works! And this is also the reason why she is not picking up her phone when you call her! The good feeling is just not there anymore, instead (her logical side) has probably even build up bad feelings regarding your interaction (= we call this buyers remorse). Without having addressed the logical side (= comfort) during the seduction, there will be nothing in her brain left that wants her to meet you again. Still, this is how many short term seducers work. Starting today, you know better!


Talking about comfort

Now in the old MM Mystery was separating comfort into three different phases, C1, C2 and C3. The difference between those phases was the place where you interact with the girl (C1 = Isolation, C2 = different location, C3 = your apartment / different sex location).

Nowadays we dont feel the need to separate between those three phases anymore, so we are simply talking about Comfort as one whole thing. Thats nothing special, because in all three phases we are planning the same thing: We are trying to build a deep emotional (=logical) Connection while building trust, ease and coziness.

The first step for comfort is what we call Isolation. The goal is to create a situation where you can talk alone with the girl (and therefore work on your connection without being interrupted).

Examples:

- In a club, take her to a quite table close to her friends.
- In a club again, talk alone with her, standing a few feet away from here friends
- In a social situation go to the kitchen with her or talk on the balcony

Experienced players know how to create isolation basically anywhere! I will never forget one of the best naturals I ever met, sitting at a big table with me and my friends and some girls, and he just moved his chair a bit closer to the girl sitting next to him and started a low volume conversation with her, they were whispering at each other and we others just kept talking normally, while those two just created their own little space right there! Great isolation from that natural friend of mine and a move I have myself successfully copied several times!

Now why is isolation that important? Because it will help you to make her focus on one thing: on you! She will not be distracted by her friends! At the same time a more private frame is set, now you are exchanging information that are not for anybody, only for you two (= special connection). Additionally you can drive more kino (= ideally no watching friends -> she wont feel looked at) and she will get used to being (more) alone with you (= good compliance).

Typical ways to isolate go from just grabbing her hand over I need to show you something to simply talking to her friends first (Im borrowing your friend for a minute, Ill bring her back, I promise + big friendly smile).

Isolation in a club becomes easier when you stay into eyesight with her friends. She wont feel like you are taking her away and will therefore be more comfortable with the situation. Her friends on the other hand will look over and see that everything is okay, so you reduce cock blocking (I barely get cock blocked at all).

The next steps are once again just techniques that I recommend, try to find the stuff that works for you and fits your style!

- Spend time together
- Bouncing
- Nicknames, Insider
- Grounding
- Vulnerability
- Physical Comfort
- Befriending her friends

Before I explain those techniques, another very very (!) important point: Many people (especially beginners and people who are just learning comfort) are making the mistake to just become extremely boring when they start their comfort game! Part of that goes back to the old MM, where Mystery didnt point out one very crucial point: When you enter comfort, your attraction game (A2/A3) does not stop!
Yeah you understood me correctly! Many people simply start their comfort routines and start talking about their family and their dog and I dont know what! You dont want to be like that! Instead implement the comfort stuff into the interaction!
Soon you will have a feeling for when to have a logical conversation with a girl (= comfort) and for when you need to make a joke or tease her a little (= attraction). For the beginner the basic guideline will be: Try to go for comfort, see if she is compliant (= comfort is just another compliant test) and pay attention to her reactions during the talk. When you feel like things are getting boring, either bounce (see below) or throw in some attraction stuff.

Think of the chart above - you want to slowly create balance between the emotional and the logical side. Dont just go all logical because you have been all emotional (= attraction) beforehand! Just go a little bit more into comfort mode and create a long lasting strong connection (=logical, comfort) while making use of the powerful short term connection (=emotional, attraction).



Spend time together

Think about the persons in your life that you feel the strongest connection with! Those are normally the people you have spend a huge amount of time with! You had good time and bad times, but most of all you had MANY times together! There are a lot of memories regarding that person and from all the things you have experienced together, you really have the feeling you know that person well and can trust this person. In other words you are feeling comfortable around that person!

Try to spend a lot of time with your target. The more time you have spend, the more she will feel comfortable around you (= comfort = logical connection). But dont get boring and dont lose touch with the emotional side of the game (see the chart above again) or you will end in the friendzone.



Comfort2.jpg


Now I know its not always easy to spend a lot of time with a girl, especially not if you want to lay her really really fast! Thats why we players have some tricks that we use, the most important trick being bouncing!



Bouncing

Bouncing is what we call the change of locations. Most guys make the mistake to always stay at the same place with a girl. For example they will meet a girl for a drink during a date and thats it. When her friends ask her what the date was like, she will say Well we had a drink. In her brain you will be the guy she only had a drink with.

Now lets compare that with a date where you use the power of bouncing.

You arrange the date and make her pick you up. When shes at your door you give her a super short tour through your apartment/house (at the same time making her more comfortable with your place). Afterwards you go to a location where you can talk good (for example drinking cocktails). Instead of ending things here you just drink one cocktail and move on to an other place afterwards. In that second place the focus is not on conversation but on other things (cinema, theme park, etc. some external entertainment). On the way home you stop at a restaurant and talk a bit more.

By the time you two are back together at your place, the two of you will have experienced so much more than people do normally on a normal date. Its like you have fitted three little dates (cocktails, cinema, restaurant) into one date. And it never got boring!

In addition (in her brain) she will have you connected with several places at once! You are more present in her brain! And even though this was just one date, she will have the feeling as if you have known each other for a much longer time (since this kind of connection is something that normally only develops after several meetings).

But Bouncing is not only something you can do during dates! Even when you start meeting her right there in the club, you can create several memories in a short amount of time! Dont just stand in one corner and talk to her, this will get boring!

- Check out all the different dance floors
- Never sit at the same place twice (except you like to sit with her friends)
- Every time you get a drink, go to a different bar (most clubs have more than one place to get a drink)

If you can, try to bounce outside that very night! Go to a pizza place close by and grab a snack! Go to a convenient store and buy some water for the two of you. Go to a different club! To a bar. Go prank the neighbors! It doesnt even matter!

The goal should be to create as many different memories as possible!

Small hint: If you have several ideas about what to do, try to do something she has never done before. In addition its always good to shoot for extreme emotions! If she is experiencing strong emotions, her brain will mistake those strong emotions for attraction. And people never forget the first time they rolled this huge rollercoaster! Its the forth time they forget and dont think about!

So from now on, make use of the time you have with a girl and create as many memorable moments as possible!



Nicknames, Insider

What else is it that connects you with your best friends? Well one thing is for sure: you guys will have a lot of insiders! Those insiders may be funny things you experienced together, something funny someone said at a special situation, a quote from a movie you enjoyed or something similar.

Those insiders connect the two of you in a special way. Outsiders may be hearing the words, but they wont understand why you two start laughing. In other words: Insiders are a group phenomenon. And this is again something you can use to your advantage!

When you talk with a girl and you see the option to do a reference to something said earlier, just go for it! Dont think about insiders too much, since you cant really plan them. But if you and your target have developed an insider, try to cultivate it.

You can also give her a nickname. Animal names are good, the same goes for Disney characters and comic figures. Be creative.


Grounding

When I tell you that Bouncing is the most important technique you want to learn for building comfort, then Grounding is the second most important!

Grounding means showing her how you became the person that you are. In other words you are telling her the reasons why you think or behave in a certain way.

If you think being honest is very important, than there is possible a reason why you think like that. You may have made experience with someone who was not honest and you didnt like that. Or you think its important to be honest because otherwise life would just be chaos and one could never lay back and relax. Or you think being honest prevents a lot of drama and therefore you have no place in your life for people who are not honest.

That is just one example of what could be the reason for you (!) to hold a certain value high.

Next thing: Why do you work in the job that you have? (financial independence? being really good at it and feeling fulfilled?) Why do you enjoy a certain sport?

A few examples (mostly routines):

HB: What sport do you do?
Aima: I go to the gym three times a week
HB: Oh, so you life weights? ( like everyone else)
Aima: Yeah, I just love how you can measure yourself at the weights. You know how everything in life change all the time, but I tell you one thing, 200 pounds is always 200 pounds! And if I manage to lift 205 then Im a better and stronger person than before!
HB: Oh okay *smiling*

Why is she smiling at the end? Because now she understands why I like that sport! She can understand my actions and see my motives, I become more predictable and show her my values! Values are always intimate informations, therefore she will have the feeling that I open up to her (I actually do). On top I showed a passion and showing passion is always good (= being able to have passion for something is attractive).

Examples:

HB: So what do you do for a living?
Aima: Im a law student, I just passed the bar.
HB: Oh okay
Aima: I know what you may think. But law just comes easy to me. And being a lawyer is a job I can see myself getting up for in the morning for something like 40 years. On top I can earn enough money to travel. You know traveling is my biggest passion. (transition to talking about traveling).

HB: So are you a family person?
Aima: Well, you know how people always ask if you are a family yes or a family no person? Im definitely a family yes person. My family rocks! I love them so much and they are the most precious thing in my life! My younger brother is the most important person in my life! I would die for him! What about you?


As you can see Im using some very strong emotions here (love, and loving something so much you would die for it). But I have never gotten any bad reaction on that story every. Its because Im congruent with that story and I honestly feel that way.


* *

As you can see, grounding comes down to telling her why you feel or think a certain way. Ask yourself, why do you do your job? Why do you do that sport? Why do you think family, money, traveling are important? What are your goals in life? Why do you have those specific goals? How did your childhood influence you? Puberty?

If asked, I have reasons for everything I do and think. I can also give reasons why I feel certain ways. Sharing some of those information with her will let her into your world and she will ultimately have the feeling that she understands you better than anyone else (=she really knows you).

* *

Dont forget that you have it in your hand to trigger a Grounding conversation. Some questions you may ask.

- What did you want to become when you were a little girl? And dont tell me a princess
- You look like a person who knows exactly what she wants (self point)
- Do you like that job?
- What do you look for in a man? I mean apart from him being awesome in bed.



Vulnerability

When talking about Grounding we also have to talk about Vulnerability. Dont be afraid to show some vulnerability during Comfort. But dont overdo it. One little story is normally enough to show that you have a soft core inside your attractive and strong character.

Example:

HB: Being faithful is very important to me
Aima: I know what you are talking about. My second girlfriend was cheating on me. I caught her in the act.
HB: Not really (shocked)
Aima: Yeah, I had a student job at a baker store, trying to earn some money for my driving license (shits expensive in germany) that was at a time when she complained and said I should spend more time with her. So I managed to leave work earlier and drove directly from work to her place. When I arrived, she was not alone
HB: Oh wow Im so sorry.
Aima (shy smile) Normally I dont tell this anyone. Its crazy how comfortable I feel around you
HB *smiling comforting*

You see how I turned the conversation at the end? I used the story to create some strong emotions inside her (maybe someone cheated on her too, at least she can imagine it) while giving her reasons to trust me (= he was cheated on, he wont do it to me because he knows how much it hurts) while also telling a story of how I worked for my future (=driving license) and was putting effort into a girl I liked (=every girl wants that). Finally I was taking all those strong emotions from the past right to the present. By sharing a secret she has the feeling to be something special, but speaking about how comfortable I feel around her she will feel more comfortable herself.

And in case you wonder: Yes, this is a true story! And yes, it is one of my strongest routines! At the end I do often take her hand a caress it (=physical comfort).

But always remember: After such a heavy story with enormous emotions, you want to relax the atmosphere and either talk about something funny and relaxing or bounce. Dont even let the emotions get you down you have made your point (in this case =being vulnerable, being faithful, being a good boyfriend, Grounding). Now you want to move on in the interaction.



Physical Comfort

Comfort doesnt always have to be verbal. I love to use kino for building comfort. You can hug her when she tells you a very sad story and hold her really tight. But you can also do what I like to call couple kino: When walking with her, hold her hand. Dont ask, just take it as if its the most normal thing to do.

Other things you can do:

- Caress her neck
- Caress her hands during conversation
- Lay your arm around her
- Caress her leg
- Touch/Lay your hand on her lower back

And this includes also every move you have ever done to show your former girlfriend how much you liked her.

I call this couple kino because you dont want to make her horny, but you want to make her feel more comfortable and make her feel secure. The idea is to give her an idea what it would be like to be your girlfriend / spend more time with you. And you want away some fears she may have.



Befriending her friends

When ever you have the chance, try to befriend her friends briefly. In a club, a girl will often be out with her friends! Those friends can be the biggest cock blocks or they can be super supportive! Your goal is to make them like you as much as possible in the shortest time possible!

Most of the time the friends will be worried that you are the wrong guy for their friend! Talk with the group or the friends, exchange a few words and show them you are just a normal guy, no crazy psycho that is going to rape her friend! You dont need to force this talk, instead just throw a question at the friend and see if she is willing to talk. Be genuine and humble.

I often ask the friend: So how do you two (target and her) know each other? Are you classmates/workmates? That makes them both talk and creates some group energy.

Another thing you want to do is make your target understand that you like her friends! Often a friend will come over and be quite protective about her friend, look if shes alright and then go away again. Here I often say She is really looking after you! You can be glad to have a friend like her, thats only something really good friends do for each other!

She often replies Yeah, she is the best with a big smile. Now she has the feeling that I like and understand her friends, what makes it much easier for her to see me as part of her group. She also doesnt need to be afraid to have me join the group, because she knows I will be positive and friendly towards her friends!

All this leads to her having a good positive feeling towards you (=comfort).



Final words on skipping comfort:

I know guys who say they pull girls without comfort. I have pulled girls with almost zero comfort myself. When you have really really strong attraction game and the situation and the girl are in your favor, it can work. But pay attention to what I said. I said I have pulled girls with ALMOST zero comfort. Some comfort has to be there.

It is a 100% fact that you wont have sex with a girl thats not feeling comfortable on a basic level. Maybe she is trusting strangers easily, then you dont need much comfort game. Maybe your appearance or how other people treat you are making her feel comfortable. Maybe she has watched you beforehand and feels like you are save.

Fact is: Maybe she is comfortable enough around you WITHOUT YOU DOING ANYTHING. Thats right, I have experiences many situations where I didnt have to do any comfort game to win the girl. But just because I didnt have to run comfort game doesnt mean there was no comfort. The comfort was there so I didnt have to create it.

Think about it: Sometimes the girl just seems to find you super attractive without you having done anything! The same can happen for comfort. Unluckily, there is almost never a case when she both finds you instantly attractive and is instantly comfortable with you. In most cases you have to work on at least one end, mostly you will have to do work on both ends.

Is it therefore a good advice to skip comfort when you just want to bang her quickly? No it is not! But with what you have learned here, you can tell quite quickly if she is comfortable enough around you (= comfort is another compliance test). And if you feel there is no need for comfort, then skip comfort. But if you are not sure add a tiny bit of comfort and gather her reaction. Then take it from there!

And if you are a beginner, do the comfort.
If you want to make her your girlfriend, do the comfort.
If you want her to make you breakfast next morning, do the comfort.
If you want to reduce LastMinuteResistance (LMR), do the comfort.
And if you want her to give her best in bed, do the comfort.

Is comfort a must have? In most situations, yes!

And I swear you will recognize the situation when its one of those rare cases when you dont need comfort.



Sex (S1, S2, S3)

You have successfully attracted the girl. You have (during the same night or over one/ a few dates) created enough comfort. Congratulations, now its time for the actual sex!

Mystery divided the Sex into three parts:

S1: Foreplay (in the sex location, e.g. your bedroom)
S2: Last Minute Resistance (LRM)
S3: The Sex happens

Once again I dont think a separation in different phases is necessary. Just focus on the main thing: Getting her horny and getting it in!

If you have done everything else (=attraction and comfort) correctly, you wont face any problems. Having sex is no longer her decision, but you have made it your decision. If you have used your knowledge to create attraction and to build comfort, you have earned the sex. You seduced this women. And she is on and about to fall for you. Congratulations!


On Last Minute Resistance

In case of last minute resistance, most people recommend a freeze out. I have never done a freeze out successfully. All I ever did was being persistent and trying to make her horny.

A few techniques:

- Kiss her neck and ears
- Tell her how horny she makes you
- Pull your cock out
- Touch her between her legs, touch her breast
- Breath heavily
- Maybe bite her gently
- Moan

Then if she still resists, make a small break. Do some light attraction and comfort game, then initiate again by telling her how you cant stop, how horny she makes you. If you have a boner, its recommended to pull it out!

If the girl is really shy (or a virgin) she may need a lot more comfort than normal women. But maybe she was only waiting for you to pull your cock out. Take it from there, be dominant, then gentle, funny, again dominant and dont break the atmosphere.

If that doesnt help, break the atmosphere, take her mind off and then surprise her but going for the sex again. Always smile when she pushes you away. This girl is already making out with you, so her rejection is just a joke. Smile it off.

She has probably never seen a guy taking LMR that way, and that alone will make her curious what a guy like that is going to be like in bed.

One last advice: if you face strong LRM often, then the problem lies somewhere in your game, may it be Attraction or Comfort. Fix the problem and the LMR will go. Dont focus on breaking LRM when the real problem was your game beforehand.



Additional Pointers


On kissing


In which phase should you kiss the girl? Well, I like to kiss the girls during my comfort game, when she starts to feel Im not only attractive but also different. Sometimes I kiss the girls when my attraction is super strong and then I take her to a quiet corner and start building comfort so she wont forget about me. There have been rare cases when I kissed girls the first time in my bedroom (during the Sex-Phase (S1-S3)).

As you can see, everything is possible here. Try to find out what works for you!



On different phases of the seduction

People always criticize the MM is too static and doesnt leave room for natural interactions! They assume people always see the different phases and act accordingly from A1 to A2 to A3 and so on and so far. But thats simply not true (at least no one I know is strictly following the script).

As Ive pointed out earlier the line between A2/A3 and Comfort is undefined during comfort you dont want to get boring but instead you do still want to DHV from time to time (A2) and let her qualify to you (A3). In other words there are no strict lines!

And you dont even have to follow the different steps there can be situations when you dont need some of the steps and can move on much much by skipping a step. Think about what I said about skipping A3 or even skipping Comfort (rare cases I have to admit, but as you get experiences you will play on a different level (= see the matrix)).

Think about the flowers in your garden. Flowers need care. Everyone tells you to water your plants. But when you go out and you see its raining, you wouldnt think one second about going out and watering the plants, right? Thats common sense!

From now on I ask you to apply that common sense in your seduction too! When the girl is super attracted right from the start, you dont need much DHV, you may be able to skip A2 all together and directly start A3 (female-to-male-qualifying). Maybe she will directly be very compliant after your first Compliance routine (e.g. give her a spin or a hug or holding her hand) and then you move directly to comfort OR you may even try to isolate her directly (because she is Down To Fuck (DTF) and just wants you badly right there in her friends bedroom next door/ in the club toilet/ in her car, etc.!).

But for all this to work you need to ask yourself: Do I need this Phase of the seduction or do I not? Luckily, the more experience you have, the better you will be at answering this question.

By the way: Skipping phases that were needed is normally the end of your seduction. My favorite example is a drunk guy at a club: He opens the chick (A1), may even be able to build some attraction (A2) but then he does not qualify the girl (skipping A3) and she will assume he will take home any girl and that hes just after any pussy. He will probably skip Comfort too and thats it. NEXT! Drunk guy can watch his girl going home with me. I dont feel sorry for him, its his own fault.

Even worse: The drunk guy that just opens with the line Do you want to have sex with me?. While this is a more direct line that creates some attraction when delivered congruently (mostly not the case with drunk guys) its probably not enough attraction to make the girl compliant to the huge compliant test will you sleep with me! Remember: After opening she still things her value is higher than yours!

So just apply some common sense and you will be surprised how smooth things can work in your favor.


Last Words

Now if you have some questions regarding this (extremely long) guide, feel free to ask. Post a question right here if its a small question or open a new topic with a question that is bigger (and send me a PM with the link so I see the topic).

This post was over half a year in the making. When I wrote the first lines it was autumn of 2012. Back then it was called Updated to 2012.

I want to say Im honestly sorry for all the spelling and grammar mistakes, I did my best.

I wish that the community benefits from this guide and that people start to talk a little bit more about comfort, helping all those young souls that would like to have girl falling on love with them.

I have never been a commercial coach and I will never be. The community taught me how to pick up girls. I want to give something back for the younger generation (though many guys may actually be older than me).

Experience is the key. Use this guide to figure out AFTERWARDS while certain things worked and why others didnt work. Improve and become a better man. The women will be happy."
 
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