Fashion, fundamentals, game system discussion (derailed Spike appreciation)

[KJ Francis]

And so what? If that's what he wants to focus on why is it such a big deal to you?

Well there is a pretty big audience lurking reading this stuff, beyond the users not posting, and beyond registered users (GC has a big readership and mentions the forum semi regularly). There are kids starting college with forks in the road, guys deciding on divorces, etc. It is a field of study and @Spike challenges the general maxims, like how "advanced" is defined, so it's kind of like scholarly discourse. I can see you get it in your recent guide with the mention of it not being persuasion etc.

I know he gets it too. I just think it's a totally wrong to tell a kid starting college to catch fish by using a super optimized approach at the base of a certain waterfall, vs. learning how to be a fisherman as a whole. Obviously it's still super fucking valuable to talk about how to best get a shit load of good fish in net, but putting a newbie on that path won't forge a skilled fisherman.

Sure you can lay yellows but if you have enough greens that you are attracted to why would you even bother to care about yellows?

Pussy's closer to fungible, but the woman isn't. Especially a mother. Good example is @Kaida he can meet two friends and fuck them both, getting laid like crazy, but still is really picky for a girlfriend and will need the applied skill set for the less-replaceable pussy.

Don't fuck it up game is still actually game

It's true, yeah... It's actually an interesting topic of how to vibe and communicate when a girl is chasing, keeping that dynamic. And I do think seduction is like 50% fundamentals including body language and everything... You could surely learn a ton from infield videos of an indirect, verbal-heavy style seducer on mute.

you throw jabs at him a lot yet it seems like you secretly admire him.

Yes of course this is like discussing Batman vs. Superman. if I was a kid I'd have a poster of @Skills in my room and Badboy https://www.datingskillsreview.com/badboy/ next to Pamela Anderson and Carmen Electra.

I am tempted to do a spike game full post... That way people on the forum don't go in circles... He doesn't do anything new or unique other than bathroom pulls, the way he did it is very impressive...

This would be amazing cause you're right in the @James D pool LR, @Spike writes shit lay reports. He is not giving himself enough credit by leaving out all the detail. To be fair, James is an actual writer.

 

[Skills]

This would be amazing cause you're right in the @James D pool LR, @Spike writes shit lay reports. He is not giving himself enough credit by leaving out all the detail. To be fair, James is an actual writer.

I can do that but is just water is wet post of things that has been talked about for years, pretty much screening game, i mean if you want i can, it will be boring.... The problem is there was a lr how to guide, every forum has rules on how to do proper lay reports (the structure).... unfortunately the how to lay report guide that was in this forum was written by "name we can not mention that now everybody mentions bachaus"..... I may look for the how to write lr guide from nextasf, or mpua forum and post here...

Most guys that get laid in the similar manner (like me i have 100s of lays like that) and i am sure there are many guys as well, won't even post it cause it would be like this, met a girl, dance, escalated, pull a waste of total time..... or met a girl, vibe. small talk, pull... nothing to teach aka brag report...

All the stuff you said about spike is valid, but your "let me prevent newbies" from learning and be mislead, is kind of weak, and comes across off... That is why field testing exist... is the same as average daygamer "i won't fuck this girl cause is not morally right" analogy...


Here it is:

- work on your fundamentals and stereotype for particular demo you like (he likes gen z drake/pdiddy shit 18-19, for him after 21 is old)
-go to tik tok and instagram and find the popular trending hot guys and look in tik tok insta the celebrities the demo girls are drooling about
- find out the environment were those girls are and try to design your life for that shit (he went to college in the middle of nowhere were the young girls)
- design a lifestyle like Dan balzirian to be around those girls (restaurant chef, were a lot of young girls starting like will get job as waiters, bartenders, hostess)
- test outfits and hair cuts, tatoos, piercing, accessories, shoes, jeans and dyes and crazy shit to see what gets you attention and modify and perfect constantly based on reactions you get on the field and study the youtube gen z style guides (like we study the different pick up guys) .
- get and/or force approach invites, hoover, buy time get reaction capitalize on reactions, and then not fuck it up (screening game)

^ so maybe i just do one post with more detail and with links and shit, but is boring to me... (nothing new) gll, i, wm, illuminatus, sleazy, jabba etc... has been teaching that for years he just doing same for new gen 2.0....

 

[Kaida]

Sure you can lay yellows but if you have enough greens that you are attracted to why would you even bother to care about yellows?

Seems more like a stylistic choice to me

But wouldn’t a girl thats yellow/red for most guys be better girlfriend material?

Even if you match their archetype perfectly, theres some girls out there who have self-control and wont be DTF right away.

Or even if they are for some guys, they are green for less guys overall if they’re a high quality girl. Meaning you’re more likely to run into them being yellow for you.

Being able to convert non-DTF girls like that increases the amount of gf-quality girls you can choose from, no?

 

[Spike]

But wouldn’t a girl thats yellow/red for most guys be better girlfriend material?

Why would a girl who isn’t attracted to you be better girlfriend material than one who is attracted to you?

Even if you match their archetype perfectly, theres some girls out there who have self-control and wont be DTF right away.

Just because she’s green and really attracted to you because you match their archetype. Doesn’t mean she’ll fuck you that same day or night

In those cases you get their number. And then close them on the second date.

 

[TomInHo]

But wouldn’t a girl thats yellow/red for most guys be better girlfriend material?

This has not been the case for me personally

Most of my girlfriends were actually the easiest lays of my life

When a girl makes things more difficult I don't actually value her more. I just see her as a difficult girl

Even if you match their archetype perfectly, theres some girls out there who have self-control and wont be DTF right away.

Sure but even if they aren't DTF immediately the courtship tend to go very smoothly

If I can't lay her in 10 minutes no problem. Can get her number then text her and setup a date pretty easily.

Then because she is so into me chance of me closing on that date are very high. I already close more than 70% of my first dates regardless if she green or yellow anyways

But if for some reason I can't close that date, I notice these girls make setting up a second date super easy

And then I close them then

The entire thing just feels way more straightforward and the girls tend to help you in the seduction a lot even if they aren't ready immediately

Being able to convert non-DTF girls like that increases the amount of gf-quality girls you can choose from, no?

Not in my experience

I have put in effort to convert yellows then lost interest in them after

I have also lost interest in some girls that were green

But. . . when I Iook back at my best relationships, it was mostly with women that were super into me from the start

I've had relationship with yellows too, but the greens always felt the best for me

But that's my experience, maybe other guys will feel their girlfriends are better if they started of yellow

It could just be a personality thing so I'm not going to project my preferences unto others

Maybe I don't value difficult women, but if you do then we will obviously approach things very differently

 

[Spike]

It could just be a personality thing so I'm not going to project my preferences unto others

Maybe I don't value difficult women, but if you do then we will obviously approach things very differently

It all stems from the false notion that if she was easy for me, then she must be easy for everyone else (Whore). if she was hard for me, then she must be hard for everyone else (Madonna).

 

[ziggydust]

I personally struggle a lot with what to say when the girl doesn’t hook instantly. Or when she is staying there talking to me very politely in a I would never sleep with you but let’s have a nice chat way

I think it's best to move on from them girls if you really sense a lack of attraction. On to the next!
If you watch infield footage, these interactions almost never ever end up in a lay. I think with practice you can tell in about 10 seconds whether she is interesed or not (whether you have a shot or not)

 

[Will_V]

But wouldn’t a girl thats yellow/red for most guys be better girlfriend material?

Even if you match their archetype perfectly, theres some girls out there who have self-control and wont be DTF right away.

Or even if they are for some guys, they are green for less guys overall if they’re a high quality girl. Meaning you’re more likely to run into them being yellow for you.

Being able to convert non-DTF girls like that increases the amount of gf-quality girls you can choose from, no?

I look at it as something to take in context, on a case by case basis. Some girls are dtf because they're veterans, other girls are dtf because they're naive, others are dtf because they just really really want you and it seems like the best way to seal things. I would even say that the more a girl is willing to risk to get something she truly wants, the more I like her and the better character I think she has, I believe this is what female courage fundamentally is. The same way you would say that a guy who is willing to risk a lot for his ambitions is admirable. For me, the least attractive girls for relationships (and sex) are the ones who are apathetic and unambitious about everything, regardless of how fast they go to bed.

The way a girl responds to you depends on a lot of variables - her genetic programming, her cultural programming, her perception of herself, her perception of you, what you establish as your frame for how things can play out, etc. A lot of guys get long gamed by girls because they indirectly tell the girl that that's what they value, when she would have slept with him much earlier.

The idea that a girl who puts the brakes on sex is automatically better long term material is just way too simplistic.

I would say that yes, a good girl for a relationship generally has higher standards (coming from high self esteem and good self awareness of what she wants from a man, two of the most important aspects of a womans personality) but realistically you can't measure it just based on how she reacts to you, because you are the main variable in your own interaction. You just gotta gauge her personality and character in a lot of small ways, through the courtship and after sex.

 

[Skills]

But wouldn’t a girl thats yellow/red for most guys be better girlfriend material?

Even if you match their archetype perfectly, theres some girls out there who have self-control and wont be DTF right away.

Or even if they are for some guys, they are green for less guys overall if they’re a high quality girl. Meaning you’re more likely to run into them being yellow for you.

Being able to convert non-DTF girls like that increases the amount of gf-quality girls you can choose from, no?

The ease or difficulty of girls doesn't mean she will be a better or bad gf but if she sleeps with you to easy guys worry she will be asy for any guy Madonna whore thinking some women know this and play to men fantasies... Red pillers get bait and switch all the time lol... But i do agree being able to have more control of gaming no down.... Give you more control of choices...

 

[KJ Francis]

Guys I will read through this later and thanks Skills for doing the breakdown, will check it out, but wanted to clarify.... I don't think the girlfriend traffic light thing is mutually exclusive either... I agree the best fit girls can be easier like what Chase calls love at first sight, often strongest attraction is mutual, maybe genetic reasons or whatever. Wife quality girls can be quick pulls too, etc.

I just mean a woman you'd have kids with and trust to raise them, build a life together, etc. is way more rare. There's a chance she will be yellow. If your goal is to get laid you will be fine opening five more girls to find a green, but the point of the seduction skill set is to be able to flip her through game. If not you have to accept her slipping through your fingers.

My optometrist is super hot and in her 20's, rich, brilliant, etc. Unfortunately married. But the point is to be able to get her if she's single, not just say oh well there's more at the club. She never went to clubs. She went to bed early.

Whole point of abundance mentality is ability to leave your girl and walk out the door and find another. It's very tied to the ability to approach the girl who is too busy reading to notice you walking by and is skeptical on the open.

If you find girls only through approach invitations and early obvious IOI's you are leaving a lot on the table. Spike won't care because there's enough greens for his goal. Sure some of these may be wife/mother quality, but you want as much choice as possible (greens plus yellows both abundant options you know you can get through skill).

 

[Spike]

My optometrist is super hot and in her 20's, rich, brilliant, etc. Unfortunately married.

And you know for a fact when she was in her late teens/early 20s she never went to a bar with her friends? Not even once?

There are hot quality girls that go out all the time. There are some that go out only once in a blue moon that you will probably never see again if you don’t close her. Im sorry to say this, but this “10/10 wife quality material girls never go to bars and by default will be yellow/red to you on approach ” is just an incel fantasy.

 

[Skills]

Guys I will read through this later and thanks Skills for doing the breakdown, will check it out, but wanted to clarify.... I don't think the girlfriend traffic light thing is mutually exclusive either... I agree the best fit girls can be easier like what Chase calls love at first sight, often strongest attraction is mutual, maybe genetic reasons or whatever. Wife quality girls can be quick pulls too, etc.

Yes

I just mean a woman you'd have kids with and trust to raise them, build a life together, etc. is way more rare. There's a chance she will be yellow. If your goal is to get laid you will be fine opening five more girls to find a green, but the point of the seduction skill set is to be able to flip her through game. If not you have to accept her slipping through your fingers.

Yes but not always...i had girls like that red, yellow, green... But agree

My optometrist is super hot and in her 20's, rich, brilliant, etc. Unfortunately married. But the point is to be able to get her if she's single, not just say oh well there's more at the club. She never went to clubs. She went to bed early.

Chances are she has been to a club or party to celebrate or got drag there.. she probably went to highschool and college they have proms, sweet 16s, she probably went to bachelorette party.... And she probably went to a medical convention or concert or festival or mall... I don't understand the point...i dated a doctor she was not a clubber...

Whole point of abundance mentality is ability to leave your girl and walk out the door and find another. It's very tied to the ability to approach the girl who is too busy reading to notice you walking by and is skeptical on the open.

Whole point of abundance is to get women you are attracted to

If you find girls only through approach invitations and early obvious IOI's you are leaving a lot on the table. Spike won't care because there's enough greens for his goal. Sure some of these may be wife/mother quality, but you want as much choice as possible (greens plus yellows both abundant options you know you can get through skill).

Correct... Agreed.. there are also greens that don't give you any signs..

 

[KJ Francis]

And you know for a fact when she was in her late teens/early 20s she never went to a bar with her friends? Not even once?

There are hot quality girls that go out all the time. There are some that go out only once in a blue moon that you will probably never see again if you don’t close her. Im sorry to say this, but this “10/10 wife quality material girls never go to bars and by default will be yellow/red to you on approach ” is just an incel fantasy.

Lol not at all what I'm saying...

It is just one example girl.

I don't understand the point

Yes wife quality may be at the club and green. But you don't run into wife quality every day so you don't want to be forced to let her go if she happens to be yellow. Same if you purely day game looking for greens.

It's just odds and probabilities. Input funnel volume, probability of green vs yellow, your own average approach to pull ratios from skill, etc.

 

[Spike]

you don't want to be forced to let her go if she happens to be yellow

Ok and? You move on lol. Is she the only quality girl that exists in the world? Or are there others just like her (that is what you want right? A quality girl? Or does she need to be difficult?) that will find you attractive. The better your fundamentals are, the higher the chances of that possibility.

 

[Kaida]

Why would a girl who isn’t attracted to you be better girlfriend material than one who is attracted to you?

Not what i'm saying

Sure but even if they aren't DTF immediately the courtship tend to go very smoothly

If I can't lay her in 10 minutes no problem. Can get her number then text her and setup a date pretty easily.

Then because she is so into me chance of me closing on that date are very high. I already close more than 70% of my first dates regardless if she green or yellow anyways

But if for some reason I can't close that date, I notice these girls make setting up a second date super easy

And then I close them then

The entire thing just feels way more straightforward and the girls tend to help you in the seduction a lot even if they aren't ready immediately

Ahh I see. I think we fundamentally agree

I can see now that by "Green" girls you simply mean compliant, interested girls. I was equating Green with basically DTF right now and Yellow with compliant but not DTF.

I don't really care for non-compliant women like you said, but at the same time I enjoy and value seduction that has a little more meat to it then me just coming to her house and fucking first date. I wouldn't necessarily call a girl a hoe for fucking first date depending on the circumstances.

---

---

And to respond to the guys saying "Madonna-Whore" complex:

If you cold approach a girl and grab her number after a 5 minute interaction

And she's already texting you to come over (presumably to fuck)

And you hit within 10 minutes of being there. Would you still say she's girlfriend material?

We're all seducers and we study game so it's a little different, but if you heard a random AFC had sex with a girl first date you seriously wouldn't think anything of it? Even if she was inexperienced?

Doesn't the argument "If she's easy for me she's easy for others" have some merit at least?

Same way if a girl says you should take off your condom first link you can almost be sure she tells other niggas that.

I agree with @Will_V on the fact that it's a case-by-case thing. Like if the cold approach example above was genuinely naive and thought y'all were gonna watch a movie, then okay.

And if you just run seducer game on a compliant girl and pull her after a 30min-2 hour date - she's might be okay too.

But if a not-naive girl is saying come over and fuck after a quick 5 minute cold approach convo, would that still make her GF material?

What if you met and fucked her within 15 minutes of meeting her in a club bathroom? Even if you have a high level of game. Could that still be a potential GF?

I don't see how a girl can be considered high quality in those circumstances. Call it Madonna-Whore complex if you like but i guess I must be missing something.

 

[Teevster]

Sorry! late to the party.
How did I miss this? This type of thread gave me nostalgia.

-Teevster

 

[Skills]

Sorry! late to the party.
How did I miss this? This type of thread gave me nostalgia.

-Teevster

Yes deja Vu...

 

[Spike]

Doesn't the argument "If she's easy for me she's easy for others" have some merit at least?

No

 

[TomInHo]

Ahh I see. I think we fundamentally agree

I can see now that by "Green" girls you simply mean compliant, interested girls. I was equating Green with basically DTF right now and Yellow with compliant but not DTF.

Ye this is why I'm not a fan of traffic light system. It leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation and we could be using the same word "GREEN" yet in our minds are thinking two completely different things

I don't really care for non-compliant women like you said, but at the same time I enjoy and value seduction that has a little more meat to it then me just coming to her house and fucking first date. I wouldn't necessarily call a girl a hoe for fucking first date depending on the circumstances.

Lol I can relate

I had a time where I would go on dates to actually "SLOW" things down. What I mean is sometimes women would be ready to fuck even before me

Something I didn't even think that was possible

Sometimes I’d plan a date just to build more sexual tension and make the eventual hookup feel better.

There were even moments when a girl escalated on me before I was fully in the mood. So yeah, sometimes super fast sex can also be something that you need to be in the mood for

And to respond to the guys saying "Madonna-Whore" complex:

If you cold approach a girl and grab her number after a 5 minute interaction

And she's already texting you to come over (presumably to fuck)

And you hit within 10 minutes of being there. Would you still say she's girlfriend material?

Honestly… I wouldn’t know

I mean, how could I? That’s only 15 minutes of face time. I might be easy but come on, I'm not that easy

I’d probably keep seeing her casually, and over time assess whether there’s relationship potential based on how we vibe, her values, personality, and other things I look for in a girlfriend.

Fast sex wouldn’t disqualify her by default. For me, there are more important things to consider

We're all seducers and we study game so it's a little different, but if you heard a random AFC had sex with a girl first date you seriously wouldn't think anything of it? Even if she was inexperienced?

I get it. But maybe she just liked him. Game or no game, you can’t know if she’s GF material until you’ve spent real time with her

Doesn't the argument "If she's easy for me she's easy for others" have some merit at least?

Nope!

Some girls will be easy just for me

Some will be easy for everybody

Some will be easy for a select few

I really don't worry too much about that and make most decisions based on how she behaves while I'm in a relationship with her

FYI it will trip you out if yo ever encounter a woman that was difficult for you. Maybe she was even a virgin. Then after you she gave it up so easily for guys that you perceive as even lower value than you

Same way if a girl says you should take off your condom first link you can almost be sure she tells other niggas that.

Possibly but i don't really care tbh

I'm keeping that condom on... even if she a virgin

I agree with @Will_V on the fact that it's a case-by-case thing. Like if the cold approach example above was genuinely naive and thought y'all were gonna watch a movie, then okay.

And if you just run seducer game on a compliant girl and pull her after a 30min-2 hour date - she's might be okay too.

But if a not-naive girl is saying come over and fuck after a quick 5 minute cold approach convo, would that still make her GF material?

What if you met and fucked her within 15 minutes of meeting her in a club bathroom? Even if you have a high level of game. Could that still be a potential GF?

I don't see how a girl can be considered high quality in those circumstances. Call it Madonna-Whore complex if you like but i guess I must be missing something.

Still, I think you’re just going through a bit of cognitive dissonance. Totally normal once you start thinking more seriously about relationships

But personally, it seems like you might be trying too hard to avoid making the wrong choice

And the truth is, when it comes to choosing a girlfriend, you can't know everything about a woman right away

You only really get to see who she is over time once you're actually experiencing her

Kind of like test driving a car

You might think a Lambo is the dream, but you won’t really know until you’re in it, driving it for a while

And even then, your opinion might change after a year. You might want to sell it or feel proud you made the right call.

TLDR; Don't overthink it. Be willing to take some emotional risks and see how things go. If she ain't the one... cool. You'll learn and can always try again

Approaches are test drives for ONS
ONS are test drives for FBs
FBs are test drives for GFs
GFs are test drives for wives
Wives are test drives for ???? (I have no idea. . . never been married)

 

[Kaida]

Lol I can relate

I had a time where I would go on dates to actually "SLOW" things down. What I mean is sometimes women would be ready to fuck even before me

Something I didn't even think that was possible

Sometimes I’d plan a date just to build more sexual tension and make the eventual hookup feel better.

There were even moments when a girl escalated on me before I was fully in the mood. So yeah, sometimes super fast sex can also be something that you need to be in the mood for

Most definitely man.

I lowkey previously thought you just wanted the easy girls and didn’t like working for it (and theres nothing wrong with that tbh) but I see we actually have a lot of similar views on the subject

Honestly… I wouldn’t know

I mean, how could I? That’s only 15 minutes of face time. I might be easy but come on, I'm not that easy

I’d probably keep seeing her casually, and over time assess whether there’s relationship potential based on how we vibe, her values, personality, and other things I look for in a girlfriend.

Fast sex wouldn’t disqualify her by default. For me, there are more important things to consider

I understand some guys here don’t care about fidelity and run open relationships. In that case I can see how super-fast 15 minute sex doesn’t disqualify.

But from a fidelity-risk standpoint, is a girl that you can turn on so much in 15 minutes that she’s willing to have sex with you on spot not an automatic fidelity-risk for monogamy?

Think about all the logical defenses you just pushed past so quickly. Friends, environment, reputation, safety, stranger danger.

If she was attached in the future, who says her “boyfriend” logical defense wont be weak as well?

I get it. But maybe she just liked him. Game or no game, you can’t know if she’s GF material until you’ve spent real time with her

Fair. People have different views on what “value” is to them so it makes sense. If she genuinely viewed him as high value then that makes sense.

What really matters tbh is if the guy she fucked was someone she viewed as low value yet fucked anyway. May be a sign of low standards / self esteem.

Or maybe she was just horny. Need more details

Still, I think you’re just going through a bit of cognitive dissonance. Totally normal once you start thinking more seriously about relationships

Most definitely. Been thinking a lot about this

Don't overthink it. Be willing to take some emotional risks and see how things go. If she ain't the one... cool. You'll learn and can always try again

Yeah I think I’m genuinely afraid of investing too much in the wrong girl.

Would hate to get my heart broken but thats how you learn right