How to deal with these tests?

[Samson84]

Recently I went on a date and I got some tests that took me by surprise. I'd like to know how I did, and how would you deal with these?
Looking back on other dates I have been on in the past, I don't think I have ever been tested like this before.
What causes this level of testing? Is it normal? What does it mean when you get no testing or resistance at all? (My previous dates were like that.)

Context: Massive bodybuilding and strength sport competition and expo, thousands of attendees in a convention centre. I spot my favourite competitor:
She: 31 years old, American pro bodybuilder, very popular with about 50k Instagram followers
Me: 44 years old, British amateur bodybuilder/powerlifter, successful software scientist, musician, etc. with about 200 Instagram followers
Approach: Walk alongside talking, and divert her for immediate coffee.


Shortly after meeting, isolated for coffee...
She: I'll give you one of my signed 8x10 photos, then at least you're getting something out of this..
Me: I think I'd prefer to get your phone number.
She: Can you imagine what my life would be like if I gave my number to everyone who wanted it?
Me: Oh, you think I'd get a good price for it on eBay?
She: I'm sure someone would give you a couple thousand for it
Me: Well I'll have to keep that option in mind


Coffee turned into lunch...
Me: ... Yeah, I play the piano too. I do many things.
She: So. You're .. "versatile"? (Facial expression says, 'do you actually expect me to take you seriously'?)
Me: ... Yeah
(Could have said: "I'm a fucking unicorn.")

We arrange to meet up later...
She: Oh now I'm gonna have to give you my number, aren't I?
Me: Well I'll make you a deal not to sell it on
(I text her later: Here's my number, don't sell it )

We met up later to look around the fitness expo. I am choosing a cap to buy.
Me: (fake putting the cap on her head, trying to be playful)
She: (recoiling) What are you doing? That's for you, I don't want it!
Me: (ignore and continue buying hat)


Later we go for sushi, just the two of us. In the restaurant...

She: I have so many fans here. They all want to tell me how much I've inspired them. (Raising her value)
Me: Oh I know how you feel. When I go to computer science conferences, I'm the well-known guy that all the PhD's and interns want to talk to. It's great when someone follows your work and is inspired by it. I know it gets annoying but I like to take some time with those guys and answer their questions, because that's how we all learn.
She: Oh wow, that's pretty cool.
(Normally I have avoided displaying value explicitly like this. I think it's stupid. But this kind of response seems to have worked well when people will otherwise have no idea of your value in a separate sphere of life. What do you think?)


She: This is a privilege for you getting time with me, when there's so many other people I could be with right now. (Raising her value)
(She is trying to wow me and make me crumble I suppose.)
(This one really knocked me sideways, it sounded so rude.)
(Could have said: Well hey, if there's somewhere else you need to be...)
Me: Well I guess there are other people I could spending my time with right now too.
She: Yeah? Is that something you do a lot? (Don't remember exact wording)
Me: Sure, I meet and eat with other people, or when I prefer, on my own.

(Later on I raise the value of my own time
Me: Yeah, now I pay someone to cook my meals and clean my apartment
She: Isn't that kinda expensive?
Me: Money - you can always make more. But time - well I don't know how to make more of that.


Me: Pass me those limes.
She: (Passes me a plate of lime quarters)
Me: (Take two and drop one in each glass of water)
She: That's not how you do it.
Me: What do you mean?
She: You're supposed to squeeze them in. So the juice gets absorbed into the water. Wait, how old are you?
Me: How old do you think I am?
She: (Frowning, like 'wtf'.) How am I supposed to know?! 35?
Me: I'm 44.
She: Well I was pretty close. I was just thinking maybe I'm older than you if you don't know how to do that. But no. Stick around me and you'll learn a few things.
Me: (mind gone blank) (can't remember what I said next or if I just ignored)

What if I had said, "Oh you want me to _squeeze_ them? And make them squirt their _juices_? Hahaha what's on your mind?!" (Innuendo)
Or, "Oh you're gonna teach _me_ a few things? I can't wait to see what that looks like." (Suggestive)


I guess I did well enough through this barrage for the date to keep continuing. But when it came that she was ready to escalate physically I froze up. I don't know why exactly. Very shortly afterwards, the date is over.

Also, through the whole day she asked vritually nothing about me (except my age). I volunteered a few things here and there, but isn't that weird? I was asking all the questions. What does it mean?

What's the meaning of her trying to put her value above mine? She feels insecure and I'm too unattainable? Or she has lousy values like popularity rather than character.

This is my first time attempting a "seduction" and first time getting an "instadate" and first time dating a celebrity/model type. So not many data points to compare against.

Thanks!

 

[foggy]

Hi Samson!

Sounds like you had quite the time with this lady.

What does it mean when you get no testing or resistance at all?

Here's what Chase has to say about this:

Women will not test two specific types of men:

- Men they are 100% committed to being with, and
- Men they are 100% not interested in.

Taken from this article: https://www.girlschase.com/content/when-women-test-men

Okay sooooooooo....here's my take on what happened.

She: I'll give you one of my signed 8x10 photos, then at least you're getting something out of this..
Me: I think I'd prefer to get your phone number.
She: Can you imagine what my life would be like if I gave my number to everyone who wanted it?
Me: Oh, you think I'd get a good price for it on eBay?
She: I'm sure someone would give you a couple thousand for it
Me: Well I'll have to keep that option in mind

She's giving you some objections. You persisted here - good, this shows your confidence. However, one thing I would suggest is not falling into her frame. She suggests that a lot of people ask for her number, and you reply by implying her number is valuable. You continue to use the idea that her number is valuable throughout the interaction, which places you as the chasing party here.

Well guess what, it's just a number..and on top of that, you want her to think that you hang around a lot of pro bodybuilder women and fuck them all the time, so their status is meaningless to you.

If I were you, I would have said, "It would definitely be pretty normal."

Me: ... Yeah, I play the piano too. I do many things.
She: So. You're .. "versatile"? (Facial expression says, 'do you actually expect me to take you seriously'?)
Me: ... Yeah

Not sure of what was going on before this, but it sorta seems like you're trying to qualify yourself to her. You're likely still in a chasing position at this point and she believes she's your superior, which explains her inability to take you seriously.

We arrange to meet up later...
She: Oh now I'm gonna have to give you my number, aren't I?
Me: Well I'll make you a deal not to sell it on

Well, if you initiated the plans to meet up later, and she agreed, then that's good that she's complying. She views you as a man who takes charge, and despite the previous mistakes she's willing to give you a chance to see where it will end up.

She: I have so many fans here. They all want to tell me how much I've inspired them. (Raising her value)
Me: Oh I know how you feel. When I go to computer science conferences, I'm the well-known guy that all the PhD's and interns want to talk to. It's great when someone follows your work and is inspired by it. I know it gets annoying but I like to take some time with those guys and answer their questions, because that's how we all learn.
She: Oh wow, that's pretty cool.

She: This is a privilege for you getting time with me, when there's so many other people I could be with right now. (Raising her value)
(She is trying to wow me and make me crumble I suppose.)
(This one really knocked me sideways, it sounded so rude.)
(Could have said: Well hey, if there's somewhere else you need to be...)
Me: Well I guess there are other people I could spending my time with right now too.
She: Yeah? Is that something you do a lot? (Don't remember exact wording)
Me: Sure, I meet and eat with other people, or when I prefer, on my own.

She's not actively attempting to raise her value..she's merely just throwing you tests, to see how you react. If I were in your situation, I would have been very annoyed. This girl WANTED you to show her that you're not phased by her social status. What you did was try to prove your value to her by giving your own value-giving stories, which is bad. What you should have done was make her submit. This type of gloating behaviour is socially uncalibrated to me. I would have just given her some eye rolls and been really amused towards her.

Me: Pass me those limes.
She: (Passes me a plate of lime quarters)
Me: (Take two and drop one in each glass of water)
She: That's not how you do it.
Me: What do you mean?
She: You're supposed to squeeze them in. So the juice gets absorbed into the water. Wait, how old are you?
Me: How old do you think I am?
She: (Frowning, like 'wtf'.) How am I supposed to know?! 35?
Me: I'm 44.
She: Well I was pretty close. I was just thinking maybe I'm older than you if you don't know how to do that. But no. Stick around me and you'll learn a few things.
Me: (mind gone blank) (can't remember what I said next or if I just ignored)

Lots of stuff here to talk about here. First of all, yes, that is how you do it!

She framed the correct way to do it as squeezing them in, then immediately changed the subject to your age. This is very sneaky. Because you didn't reject her frame, and followed the new conversational thread, you basically just fell into her frame. That's bad, and makes you look weak.

"Stick around me and you'll learn a few things" is her establishing herself as the person in charge, again....and if you agreed with that, or didn't reframe to "I'm the older person with more experience here"... then, yeah...things are going quite downhill.

Long story short, she established herself as the one in charge, which caused her to lose attraction for you. However with proper frame control and some flirting I think you could have easily bedded her.

Here is some reading material:

https://www.girlschase.com/content/why-d ... nant-males
https://www.girlschase.com/content/she-wants-submit

 

[Samson84]

Thanks for the analysis, songbird fog!

Ha, it all happened so quickly! I will be better prepared next time.

Do you think there's a chance to get her out again?

 

[Samson84]

Sounds like you had quite the time with this lady.

It was an unexpected pleasure! Did you mean anything else? This was my first ever pick-up and she is a woman I have crushed on for months. Of course that was probably part of my downfall.
[/quote]

Well guess what, it's just a number..and on top of that, you want her to think that you hang around a lot of pro bodybuilder women and fuck them all the time, so their status is meaningless to you.

If I were you, I would have said, "It would definitely be pretty normal."

I guess I decided not to fight the reality of her popularity because as we were walking around the convention centre, she literally had people coming up to her every 2 minutes to get photos and kiss her ass. Instead, I just took this in my stride and was socially dominant in those situations, as though I was her boyfriend or manager or whatever. I introduced myself where appropriate and concluded the interaction smoothly when she wanted to get away.

How about this though:

She: Can you imagine what my life would be like if I gave me number to everyone who wanted it?
(Framing me as one of her beta fanboys)
Me: Well I'm not one of your fanboys. I'm the guy you're having lunch with.
(Chase framing her, using objective reality)

Not sure of what was going on before this, but it sorta seems like you're trying to qualify yourself to her. You're likely still in a chasing position at this point and she believes she's your superior, which explains her inability to take you seriously.

I think I made the mistake of thinking she might like to know one or two things about me. However, she would have looked me up later and found out. Still, once in that situation, how about this?

Me: I do many things.
She: So … you're versatile? (Very skeptical look, weighing me up)
Me: (half-smile) Stick around me a while and you'll find out.
(Chase framing)

Well, if you initiated the plans to meet up later, and she agreed, then that's good that she's complying. She views you as a man who takes charge, and despite the previous mistakes she's willing to give you a chance to see where it will end up.

I definitely initiated and led that and to no resistance. I said we could meet up in 90 mins, look around the expo together and then grab some sushi. No objection, and she was 2 mins early to meet.

She's not actively attempting to raise her value..she's merely just throwing you tests, to see how you react. If I were in your situation, I would have been very annoyed. This girl WANTED you to show her that you're not phased by her social status. What you did was try to prove your value to her by giving your own value-giving stories, which is bad. What you should have done was make her submit. This type of gloating behaviour is socially uncalibrated to me. I would have just given her some eye rolls and been really amused towards her.

Do you mean my behaviour or hers is uncalibrated? I hope you mean hers, it was quite rude.

How would you be both very annoyed and really amused?

How about this then:
She: This is a privilege for you getting time with me, when there's so many other people I could be with right now.
Me: Bahaha! You're too cute! (Then direct challenge Is your time worth more than mine?
Or:
Me: How rude! You can get spanked for less than that, you know!

Lots of stuff here to talk about here. First of all, yes, that is how you do it!

So it is! I bought her frame initially, but now that I think about it, I did circle straight back to it:

Me: Well what about when you put limes in Corona?
She: Then I squeeze them in first, then put them on the bottle.
Me: (Skeptical look. No one does that, right? But I'm not interested in an argument, so I switch threads.)

Does that make it any better?

Finally, what about:

She: Stick around me and you'll learn a few things
Me: Cheeky! I'll let you show me what you have to teach me later.
(I'm still in charge and I'm getting sexual)


What really sank me on this date though was missing the escalation windows.

While I recognize one does not win the superbowl the first time he puts on a pair of boots, it was frustrating to get so close to someone I wanted and then drop the ball.

 

[Fuck This]

I think it is important when dealing with someone with notoriety and fame, to realize they create a wall within that world keeping people at a distance emotionally. When I deal with customers who have World Championships to their names, I do it from another angle, where we are both on the same level with an equal interest in something not related to what brings them fame. That way we are on equal footing...

The model who rode horses as a kid, we talk about that. The show horse owner/rider, we talk about her sister's stock dogs. The Hooter's Calendar Girl, we talk about the deer we have hunted. My neighbor talks about cows and ranching with a HOF NFL Quarterback. I relate to them on an equal level about something that they enjoy. It lets them put down their mask and be real.

Lynyrd Skynyrd say's it best in

"Don't Ask Me No Questions"

Well everytime that I come home nobody wants to let me be
It seems that all the friends I got just got to come interrogate me
Well, I appreciate your feelings and I don't want to pass you by
But I don't ask you about your business, don't ask me about mine

Well its true I love the money and I love my brand new car
I like drinkin' the best of whiskey and playing in a honky tonk bar
But when I come off the road, well I just got to have my time
'Cause I got to find a break in this action, else I'm gonna lose my mind

[Chorus]
So, don't ask me no questions
And I won't tell you no lies
So, don't ask me about my business
And I won't tell you goodbye

That's right

Well, "what's your favorite color and do you dig the brothers," is drivin' me up a wall
And everytime I think I can sleep, some fool has got to call
Well don't you think that when I come home, I just want a little peace of mind
If you want to talk about the business buddy, you're just wastin' time

[Chorus]

I said don't ask no stupid questions and I won't send you away
If you want to talk fishin, well I guess that'll be OK

 

[Big Daddy]

Hey Samson,

What I have to say it something to keep in mind on top of what Fuck This just said.

Just reading this I was under the impression that this was a huge dick measuring contest. So all the time you both were challenging each other, probably because she that mask to defend. I was guilty of this for the longest time. Sometimes I still am.

A girl would take 15 minutes to reply my text. I would take 20. She would take one hour. I would take two. This kept progressing until we were coldly replying each other's texts every three days. Or when I told I girl I went to a party. She then went to a part AND got super drunk. This has no end. If you stumble upon a somewhat independent girl or a girl that has a big ego and she wants to protect it, you are doing yourself no favors by "competing with her."

What you want to convey is: complete indifference and disarm her by switching to more productive topics. I try not to care how many Instagram followers she has (even though I have a fetish for popular girls, so I understand you), or anything that I have no chance of winning. I don't even want to win -- it's not a competition.

Couple of points:

Me: ... Yeah, I play the piano too. I do many things.

I'd have omitted the bolded part. Unless she's testing you on your value. But like this, it just seems you are trying to put yourself on her level i.e. validating yourself.

She: I have so many fans here. They all want to tell me how much I've inspired them.
Me: That's awesome, huh! What other role models do you have in other areas of your life you'd like to be more successful in?
(Cool, but whatever. Change topics and deep dive on something she sucks at so you guys can relate on something instead of compete.)

She: This is a privilege for you getting time with me, when there's so many other people I could be with right now.
Me: Mom always said I a lucky little prick. So anyway, how'd that story in the France ended? (...)
Me: Hah, well, it seems I've invested all my luck in this! No more lottery for me. So anyway, (...)

As a rule of thumb, you want to avoid giving the exact same answer as the other person gave you (e.g. "you are ugly too!"):

Me: Well I guess there are other people I could spending my time with right now too.

Me: Pass me those limes.
She: (Passes me a plate of lime quarters)
Me: (Take two and drop one in each glass of water)
She: That's not how you do it.
Me: What do you mean?
She: You're supposed to squeeze them in. So the juice gets absorbed into the water. Wait, how old are you?
Me: How old do you think I am?

Good way to make her invest a bit instead of outright giving the answer, though I'm guessing since this convo was already charged with competition frames, she took it as a challenge. Wording it like:

Me: Hmm, you got me curious now! How many years would you give me?

Would probably be better.

Her: But no. Stick around me and you'll learn a few things.
Me: I'm a bad student... what kind of stuff are you planning to reach me? (sly smile)

Basically, just ignore/redirect silly things she says, unless she's really, really challenging your worth or being borderline disrespectful to gauge your reaction.

 

[Samson84]

Thanks Fuck This and Big Daddy. It's helpful. It's frustrating I guess my game wasn't at that level.

When a woman is puffing herself up like this, does it mean my attainability is too low?

For those with more experience here, does this give any indication of her character, or what a relationship with her might be like? I'm trying to get better at evaluating that on a date.

After missing the escalation windows and letting her go off early evening, I texted her later to try to meet up and finish the night together. However, she was replying vaguely and I probably came off as chasing. Finally she said she had to get to bed so I wished her goodbye. Then we were both travelling on the next day and we live far apart.

I've left it a week and she hasn't been in touch. So now I plan to reach out and re-establish contact. If she replies I would hope to set a second date in her city. I hope there's another chance.

 

[Samson84]

I just thought I'd follow up with how this turned out.

I really wanted to see this woman again for a second date and try to make it a bit more fun, more similarity and relatability. However, she is in USA and I'm in UK. Plus the date didn't end well.

I left it a week to see if she would get in touch with me and then I texted her: Hey, name! I was in Bellevue last week - the sushi there is amazing! How are you feeling about your next show? --Toby
And I got a reply back quickly: Hey!!! Omg sushi would be amazing right now (smiley)! ... couple of lines about her show .. How are you?
So I was thinking, cool, that's encouraging, pretty friendly, maybe not totally fucked.

Just answering her question, seeing if she invests further:
Me: You're gonna kill it! I am good thanks, working and loving the training.
Her: Thank you (emoji) worked so hard! But there is more ahead! Good to hear; it's definitely challenging but so worth it!

Ok, so time to get direct and let her know that I am interested:
Me: I admire the dedication! So hey, I'd love to see you again. How's your schedule over the next weeks?

Hmm, maybe I should have said, "I enjoyed getting to know you a little. I'd like to meet you again." But maybe it makes little difference.

Her: Thank you! Appreciate the encouragement I have just under 3 weeks until next show so just <insert all the things she is busy with> .. juggling it all! Hoping to get a break after this show to possibly travel or take a quick vacation

I'm scratching my head. On the one hand, I know she really is very very busy as a pro athlete 3 weeks out from a big event. On the other hand, there is nobody busier than someone who doesn't want to see you.
On one hand, she is texting and sounding happy. On the other hand, she has totally evaded the mention of meeting up again.
But there again she mentions travel and vacation. Is she implying that could be an opportunity to meet up?

I don't want to get into chasing territory but I don't really know where I stand here. I've been honest and direct. As far as I'm aware, that's the guy's job. So it seems likely that she is not interested in seeing me again but wants to be friendly and gentle with me.

So I figure I will follow up about the travel, and leave the ball in her court:

Me: That's good you're going to get a break finally! Where are you thinking of going for vacation? Ok, I'm travelling to the US a lot so let me know if your schedule opens up and if so we could grab more sushi while you tell me about the show.

Too much? Maybe. Something more honest might have been
"Ok well maybe after your show I can take you for a meal when there's a bit less to juggle than there was that night in Columbus!"
.. acknowledging that it didn't end too well, but without supplicating over it ..
But anyway, it's quite hard to come up with the perfect texts for these situations.

No reply for 5 days and counting. Damn!!

And having put the ball in her court, I can't really do anything else now, right?

I was really hoping for a second chance here .. a really high value girl to me .. but seems it is a lost cause. Does anyone else have a bright idea?

She seemed pretty into me and I did a good job of sweeping her off her feet at the event - up to a point. But having missed escalation windows I was thinking there might be a boyfriend route still open? Maybe if I show some vulnerability. But I'm basically grasping straws now.

-----
EDIT: One other thing I thought of. When we were talking she mentioned how she sells stuff through her website, like rebranded T-shirts and water bottles. Small time stuff. But she was saying how she wants to expand and she could sell anything like workout music etc. And I asked her about music - well she's not a musician but I am. And I've been doing some writing lately. So I did think about asking her if she'd like to take that idea further and maybe work on something together. But then, it seems like a bit of a back-door route and she may not really be interested anyway, she may have just said that because she knows I'm a musician. What do you guys think?

 

[Michal]

Hello Samson,

One thing I noticed, dont point out bad things. The girl will not go like "oh, he realizes he should have done something, maybe he is not a lost cause, maybe I should give him another chance". The reason is she most likely forgot about it completely and it is also pretty vague, so you have no way of knowing how she interprets it.

You seem like a very high value person so to me, it seems you are a bit eager on this. To meet her asap. Keep in mind you tried to make plans 3 weeks in advance. I dont think she is in the right headspace to think about this more thoroughly but I think she will get back to you. So just, wait, do your thing and when she does get back to you, I would just keep contact and encourage her for the show. And after she is done with that, you can schedule the meeting. You are right that if she was really into you, she would just meet with you regardless. But maybe she takes her training more seriously than you thought.

For now, just get busy, dont chase, wait for her to get back to you. I am sure she will

 

[Samson84]

Thanks Michal!

Well one thing is you are right about how serious the training is. It's a 100% commitment like it would be for an olypmic athlete.

So ok we will see if she gets back to me in time.

 

[dcman]

Looking back on other dates I have been on in the past, I don't think I have ever been tested like this before.
What causes this level of testing? Is it normal? What does it mean when you get no testing or resistance at all? (My previous dates were like that.)

Hi Samson, the previous girl if I remember correctly had been married and had a kid. The options she had were limited and you were a catch for her. This girl on the contrast has a larger number of options and lives in the DC area. In the Dc area girls get hit a lot . This may have her developed a bitch shield to turn off guys. When going after girls that get hit a lot knowing how to handle a bitch shield would be useful. There are different ways to do this. In this case I would have used Negs(mystery) to see how it works with her or switched to a different approach.

She: I'll give you one of my signed 8x10 photos, then at least you're getting something out of this.

I would have negged by saying “Now I understand why Americans are considered humblest people in the world “with a smile. It could have made her seem arrogant and made her try to convince me that she is not arrogant. I would have negged/light banter a couple more times if I felt it would help with building attraction. I will share an interaction with a girl from gym last week to show how negs work. My workout partner had been trying to get this girl that he knows from the gym weight floor to spend time out of the gym for months without success. When the girl passed by me and a couple of others were making fun of him. The girl is in her mid-twenties and is a muscular type. He challenged us and said we would not even make it this far with her. I decided to give it shot and said hi to her when she walked by nearby to me. She said hi and just brushed me off as I did not even exist. I realized unlike the girls I have picked up from Cardio floor this girl was getting more attention and hit a lot by the guys in the gym floor. she had this large number of followers in social media. so, I decided to change my usual approach. The next time she came near me I asked her “Have you stopped working in the restaurant as I do not see you there anymore? “(I had seen her in a restaurant but knew she was there just with friends. I was negging her). She acted surprised and asked what I meant by that. I told her that I thought she worked as a hostess in the restaurant I had seen her. She went to explain that she works in a hospital in the medical lab. I acted as if I did not hear her and said that “Cool I did not know you were a doctor” (It was a second neg) She went onto say that she is not a doctor but the job she does is very important as well and explains to me her job. I say ok and go about doing my workout routine. She is now coming near me and talks. I decide to neg her one more time to build upon the attraction. It is a Saturday and Monday is a holiday it is a long weekend. I meet her on a Saturday and knew she probably has no plans to leave the city for the weekend. I ask her “are you planning to go to the beach “. She responds by saying that she is planning to be in town. I tell her so she is a home body and does not like travelling. She then explains to how she and her roommate are single. They have got a dog as the roommate Is not in town she needs to stay. How she really loves travelling but having a dog is like having a baby. She begins to ask me about my job, plans for the weekend etc. I tell her that someone is coming to pick me up in a short time and need to finish my work out. Next week if she sees me she can talk to me more as she is interested in my work. Going for a number close would have lowered my value and made me seem like the other guys she runs into so I leave it at that and continue with my work out. When she is about to leave she comes to say bye and is very touchy.

The girls you are into probably have similar bitch shields to turn off guys. Just play around with different approaches and see what would be effective. Having pictures with attractive girl would show that you are not fazed by her beauty and to show your value.Both Maniac High and Alex use them a lot in their club approaches where girls get hit a lot. It is why suggested about using social media to convey this message. Once you have established your value in the beginning either with negs or other manner a girl would be afraid to test and lose you.

 

[Samson84]

Hi dcman,

Thanks for your reply.

This girl on the contrast has a larger number of options and lives in the DC area. In the Dc area girls get hit a lot . This may have her developed a bitch shield to turn off guys. When going after girls that get hit a lot knowing how to handle a bitch shield would be useful. There are different ways to do this. In this case I would have used Negs(mystery) to see how it works with her or switched to a different approach.

Ok, that's interesting. I wasn't used to it and it felt just a bit rude. What is it about DC that means girls get hit on a lot?

I would have negged by saying “Now I understand why Americans are considered humblest people in the world “with a smile. It could have made her seem arrogant and made her try to convince me that she is not arrogant. I would have negged/light banter a couple more times if I felt it would help with building attraction.

This is something I have not tried before. Do you think it might risk hurting her feelings if she is showing me the photos because she wants me to affirm her and the way she looks in them? I guess I could be push-pull and say that with a smile, then look at the photo and give her some genuine compliment.

Your story about the girl in the gym is pretty interesting. Are you in USA? Girls there seem to be a LOT more status based than here in the UK.

I think I have a lot of value but I'm not displaying it adequately. I have a career at the top of the tech industry, my own business, a top education, I'm an ex-pro pianist and musician, a national powerlifter and bodybuilder, considered handsome and the British accent seems to add something. I'm also a very caring and loyal, warm and affectionate person. I have a lifestyle where I can do what I want when and where I want. The women who are platonic friends see me as a very high value man. And yet I struggle to have a woman like this take me seriously though she is younger than me and probably doesn't have the same real world experience. Where I do fall down is in lacking the experience with single women in this setting, and being sexual with new women due to being married for my whole adult life until now. There's still a part of me holding back, and not knowing what is or isn't acceptable or calibrated. (Also the experience of my marriage breakdown and then the BPD girl damaged my self esteem. That was before I learned about holding a frame.)

Looking back on it, I think when I was in her hotel room before sushi, after she changed her top, I could have just taken her hand and pulled her a little in front of me and said, "well let's take a look at you then," with a smile and then if she turned her body toward me then I could have held her chin or moved her hair and said "you have the deepest blue eyes". Then if she didn't turn away I could have kissed her right there, or if she did turn away at least it's moved the interaction up past just "hanging out".

I do have a contact who is ahead of her in the bodybuilding status ladder. That woman respects me, recognizes my value and has given me a lot of positive encouragement, although she is dating someone so she has said she is not available to date me (very good direct communication - I asked her out a couple of times and she said that would be good but as she is dating someone exclusively atm she would not feel comfortable to do that). Anyway it feels like it has become more of a friends relationship. I could arrange to go visit her and workout together and get some photos for Instagram. I feel this would be very good, whether it's for the girl I wanted or some other similar girl in the future. However I have to think of a way to do this that isn't just saying to my friend, "hey can you do me a favour and pose in some photos where it looks like you want to jump on me and fuck my brains out and then post them on your instragram thanks". I think I'll try and set this up.

I will take a look at everything you've mentioned, and please add any links to the Mystery and Alex material if you have them.

Thanks again!

PS. I have made the assumption that it would not be a good thing to ever explain to a woman on a date, "If I seem a bit nervous it's because I've been in one long term relationship for nearly my whole adult life and dating is still a bit new for me." However, is there a chance that expressing this vulnerability would buy me a bit more tolerance and get underneath the bitch shield?

PPS. Another thing the woman said on the date was that being in bodybuilding is a bit like being in high school. This was with regard to politics and social groupings. I haven't been in a US high school system so I only know what I gather from mainstream movies. From this I infer that the dumb quarterback will be getting the hottest girls! I have to compete on a slightly different axis.

 

[Richard]

I posted on Oh Pry's thread about instagram models before and this is a good showcase/example of how they act; everything she said and did screams "loneliness" to me.

Women like this are put on such a pedestal by everyone that they live in this bubble and, inevitably, CONSTANTLY meet men that reinforce that bubble. What a woman like this really wants is a man who allows her to be herself and can lead her beyond her walls/bubble.

She lives in a very polarizing world and that creates a lot of depression/anxiety/self-image issues which CAN create arrogance and superiority. Women are very good at nailing down and figuring out a man's place in the social ladder (relative to their own) so, when a woman acts superior (as this chick was doing) she's looking for a reaction; men who react with anger or validation are weaker and lower on the social ladder. The correct way to respond to her when she was acting high and mighty was to be low effort and almost dismissive because you aren't taking her tests seriously.

Her entire frame throughout this interaction was she's a "somebody" and you're just like "everybody" so you beat her frame by showing her just how different you are. Instead, you tried to display a lot of explicit value to convince her you're on the same level as her AND because she sees this type of behavior every day she knows that you're exactly like the other guys she's met and talked to.


She: This is a privilege for you getting time with me, when there's so many other people I could be with right now. (Raising her value)
Me: Oh wow (playful smile, look off to the side and chuckle a little. Kinda glace around and look a little bored)
Her: So, what do you do for a living? <-- Once she re-engages and tries to pull your attention back in she's started to submit to your frame.

Me: ... Yeah, I play the piano too.

This makes it sound like she was making herself relatable prior to what you said - I assume she said she used to play the piano, etc. which gives you a great opportunity to deep dive and peel back some of her layers. This is her wall coming down; seize that opportunity by showing her she can be more "herself" with you INSTEAD of making it a competition.

My overall read on this was that she saw you as valuable enough that she would give you a chance (because, again, these women live very polarizing lives and VERY rarely meet men who talk to them and relate to them as women instead of goddesses) but you failed by making it a competition and a dick-measuring contest. You probably had a really good shot to fuck this girl =P

The biggest takeaway; when a woman acts superior you respond by being disinterested and a little bored.

Also, through the whole day she asked vritually nothing about me (except my age). I volunteered a few things here and there, but isn't that weird? I was asking all the questions. What does it mean?

What's the meaning of her trying to put her value above mine? She feels insecure and I'm too unattainable? Or she has lousy values like popularity rather than character.

This is my first time attempting a "seduction" and first time getting an "instadate" and first time dating a celebrity/model type. So not many data points to compare against.

Why would she need to get to know anything about you when you were giving her so much attention? She had no reason (or opportunity) to show interest because you didn't give her one - you kept trying to raise your own value to meet hers.

Her putting her value above yours comes from 1) her being an Instagram model/bodybuilder and 2) she's used to dealing with the average guy (women fully expect guy's to be like every other guy which is why they test men. At the end of the day, all women want to be fucked by a real man and her "bitchiness" and "superiority" is a giant test to screen for real men (it's a genius test but, again, it's very polarizing).

Kudos on your first "seduction" attempt; if you're able to talk to a fitness model who is WELL AWARE of her fame then the average hot girl won't be much of an issue; you just need to get more experience under your belt!

-Richard

 

[Samson84]

Hey Richard, thanks for these notes. Very helpful.

Yeah, at the time I was intending to treat her not like a celebrity - or rather - I was not going to act like one of her fans. At some points I achieved that better than at others.

I did get the lonely vibe from her, especially in regards to dating, and made some progress on connecting emotionally through the date. (I didn't put the details above.) Talking about some of her history and dreams, a little bonding over the shit that happens in life, and places of beauty. It felt genuine to me and at this stage I just really enjoyed the connection. That's where I felt the wall start to come down, towards the end of the dinner.

Although some of the tests took me by surprise and I didn't have the smoothest responses, I think I kinda fumbled my way through most of them such that she was ready for escalation, which is where I fell over.

The correct way to respond to her when she was acting high and mighty was to be low effort and almost dismissive because you aren't taking her tests seriously.

Thanks, I didn't know that before. If there is ever a next time...

My overall read on this was that she saw you as valuable enough that she would give you a chance (because, again, these women live very polarizing lives and VERY rarely meet men who talk to them and relate to them as women instead of goddesses) but you failed by making it a competition and a dick-measuring contest. You probably had a really good shot to fuck this girl =P

Yeah, I thought so. That's simultaneously highly gratifying and frustrating!

The biggest takeaway; when a woman acts superior you respond by being disinterested and a little bored.

Got it.

Why would she need to get to know anything about you when you were giving her so much attention? She had no reason (or opportunity) to show interest because you didn't give her one - you kept trying to raise your own value to meet hers.

Giving her so much attention? I don't follow. Like in reacting to her tests you mean?

Her putting her value above yours comes from 1) her being an Instagram model/bodybuilder and 2) she's used to dealing with the average guy (women fully expect guy's to be like every other guy which is why they test men. At the end of the day, all women want to be fucked by a real man and her "bitchiness" and "superiority" is a giant test to screen for real men (it's a genius test but, again, it's very polarizing).

So what does "real man" mean in this context? Someone who just refuses to buy the celebrity/goddess frame? Someone who treats them as just another girl?

Kudos on your first "seduction" attempt; if you're able to talk to a fitness model who is WELL AWARE of her fame then the average hot girl won't be much of an issue; you just need to get more experience under your belt!

Average hot girls are completely out of the question now - a new standard has been set ;p

I texted her a week later and got an enthusiastic and friendly response, saying what she is up to and asking me how I am. I said I'd love to see her again and asked about her schedule. She replied that she is busy the next 3 weeks prepping for next show and then hopes to take some vacation. So I asked her where she is going on vacation, and said to let me know if her schedule opens up so we could grab more sushi. Then I heard no reply the past 10 days. So I take that to mean that she is not interested to see me again. However, if you have any ideas of getting a second shot, I would love to hear it.

I did think about trying to get a comfort-building connection going by text, but I may have made a mistake in jumping in asking to see her again and pretty much putting the ball in her court. What do you reckon?

 

[ThePhoenix]

Hi Samson,

Kudos on the model date!

I had a similar experience a while back (before I found GC) where I got a date with a model I met at the event she was performing at in front of large crowds. Wow, it certainly changes your perspective on women supposedly being "out of your league" - they're not when you don't treat them like they are!

Only, it wasn't an instant date, I got her out for coffee near her home some days later. Instant date is really cool, I have to do that still. Anyway, I also missed windows with the girl, so I can certainly relate to the up-and-down emotions of the experience of getting that far and then screwing up.

In my case I didn't get much of any "holier than thou" out of her at all. That may be related to the way I had been bantering with her from the very moment I had first opened my mouth. I hadn't been using the GC approach, and a lot of the early parts of our interaction were superficially a banter over her and I being competitive enemies... I think this provided a strong subtext of my being her at-least equal, which shut down any of that shit before it even started. I didn't verbally compliment her, at all, either - probably not a great idea with most women, but under the right conditions with cockier girls I think it can work.

Moving forwards I think it will serve you best to keep it as a learning experience and worry about new women rather than grasping at straws with this one. The unfortunate reality is that evolution has fine-tuned women to strongly prefer mates who lead them to sex quickly and exclude those who don't, so once such a large window has been missed your further chances become extremely remote, especially if she perceives herself as having many options. I know it's a painful condition but the only cure is fresh women.

Phoenix

p.s., I trust you were joking about passing up all the average hot girls!

 

[Samson84]

Hi Samson,
Anyway, I also missed windows with the girl, so I can certainly relate to the up-and-down emotions of the experience of getting that far and then screwing up.

A real rollercoaster of emotions.

Moving forwards I think it will serve you best to keep it as a learning experience and worry about new women rather than grasping at straws with this one. The unfortunate reality is that evolution has fine-tuned women to strongly prefer mates who lead them to sex quickly and exclude those who don't, so once such a large window has been missed your further chances become extremely remote, especially if she perceives herself as having many options. I know it's a painful condition but the only cure is fresh women.

Goddammit. I've been a bit stuck thinking "if only I had done X" or "maybe if I now do Y".

p.s., I trust you were joking about passing up all the average hot girls!

Uhh... not entirely! I definitely want to date more physique bodybuilders and she was probably the top in the world to my taste. So I need to find a way to frame this experience in my mind that doesn't rob me of future possibilities and confidence. Average sounds so ... average. I'm more about the extraordinary.

 

[Richard]

Giving her so much attention? I don't follow. Like in reacting to her tests you mean?

Yeah, you're giving her attention by trying to live up to the frames she's setting; you're investing so much of your time and energy into a girl who is doing nothing but talking about herself then you're trying to match her by talking about yourself. To a woman, all of that signals that is read as attention and you were giving her a lot more than she was giving you which isn't what you want to be happening within your first few interactions with a chick.

Talking to a girl, asking questions, etc. is giving a girl attention. Men typically think about attention pretty directly, as in "Attention is complimenting, praise, etc" whereas with women attention is ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that lets her know you're thinking about her and investing time into her. Text messages, phone calls, liking Facebook posts, etc. are all valued as attention by women but largely overlooked by men.

So what does "real man" mean in this context? Someone who just refuses to buy the celebrity/goddess frame? Someone who treats them as just another girl?

If you look around the forums and the main site you'll see us talking about what it means to be a "real man" quite a lot. Chase, unlike many other PUA websites, teaches a lot of things that help you find yourself as an authentic man which is why I, personally, stuck to this site so hard. Anyway, real men are men who are fully aware of themselves and know what they want both out of life and out of women (in a nutshell) - understanding what is actually/personally important and what isn't. You'll notice that a lot of us (Tribal Elders, etc.) do NOT care about a lot of things that most men obsess over and that's a reflection of understanding what's important and what isn't.

I'm going to borrow Franco's analogy which is "Women are water" because they bend, flex, and change to adapt to whatever is around them. Real men have structures that are concrete and absolute so women bend to those structures whereas if there are flaws, kinks, holes, etc. in your structure (meaning you don't know yourself or you have unresolved insecurities) then water is going to find them and exploit them (women are going to figure out your insecurities and attraction suffers).

That being said; all women are just women until you fuck them. After and ONLY after you fuck a girl do you start to think about her place or potential place in your life. Until your dick has been inside her a woman is just the same as every other woman.

-Richard

 

[Seppuku]

Hey Richard and Samson,

it's a great discussion. I'm very much on-board with Rich here, just want to add a few points.

So what does "real man" mean in this context? Someone who just refuses to buy the celebrity/goddess frame? Someone who treats them as just another girl?

Yes. Whatever the shit she's throwing at you (here she's playing superiority), you remain unfazed and act exactly as if she's just another girl. Because whatever her little dance, you are the man, you have value to offer in her life, she needs it and she knows it. The shit she's throwing at you is just meant to filter out "weaker men". Just like Richard borrowed from Franco, let me borrow from Drexel Scott. She is the Chaos and you're the Order. She is the hurricane and you're the oak tree. She is throwing everything she got at you to bring you down, but you remain strong on your roots, you plow but do not break. And when the hurricane is passed, you're still here.

If you look around the forums and the main site you'll see us talking about what it means to be a "real man" quite a lot. Chase, unlike many other PUA websites, teaches a lot of things that help you find yourself as an authentic man which is why I, personally, stuck to this site so hard. Anyway, real men are men who are fully aware of themselves and know what they want both out of life and out of women (in a nutshell) - understanding what is actually/personally important and what isn't. You'll notice that a lot of us (Tribal Elders, etc.) do NOT care about a lot of things that most men obsess over and that's a reflection of understanding what's important and what isn't.

That's the masculine way of seeing things, and I agree. You are fully aware your own value, this value that you could bring to a woman's life - the woman of your choice.

There is also the feminine way of seeing things, namely men come into two categories, the "real men", and the rest. And the real man? It's a man who can swipe her on her feet in absolute confidence, take her to bed against all her defenses, and honor her. It's a man who is able to handle her, her sexual needs, her moods, her impulses, her hesitations, her insecurities. For her, this man stands above all others. In her life, she wants, first and foremost, to secure such a man, if she can.

That being said; all women are just women until you fuck them. After and ONLY after you fuck a girl do you start to think about her place or potential place in your life. Until your dick has been inside her a woman is just the same as every other woman.

It even goes a little further. Because once you have fucked her, you still want to discover what person she really is, before deciding if she can have a place in your life. That's why at this stage, it is very premature to even think about giving her a place.

Seppuku

 

[Richard]

Seppuku,

Thanks for the clarifying points

How women think is something I've spent so much time talking about and understanding lately that I forget it needs to be explained - your points definitely help to understand this aspect of seduction.

There is also the feminine way of seeing things, namely men come into two categories, the "real men", and the rest. And the real man? It's a man who can swipe her on her feet in absolute confidence, take her to bed against all her defenses, and honor her. It's a man who is able to handle her, her sexual needs, her moods, her impulses, her hesitations, her insecurities. For her, this man stands above all others. In her life, she wants, first and foremost, to secure such a man, if she can.

This is very important for guy's to note and it goes back to the women are water analogy; it's probably best to say women WANT to be water for strong and sexy men. A woman's highest purpose is to find such a man and secure him (exactly as you said) so we're helping women to fulfill their goals/purpose by being that man.

Something else I'd like to note since it just occurred to me based on a lot of the questions I see asked (both over PM and on the Boards) I think a lot guys identify what it means to be a "real man" via techniques and abilities like there's a checklist of things you should be able to do. The reality of things is that being a "real man" is so much more a mentality or personal world view than a culmination of techniques/abilities/etc. Developing strong inner game is essential to long-lasting success and changing or growing your own world-view is pivotal in changing the world around you. This syncs up very nicely with the mindfulness psychology I've been researching in college, as well.

It even goes a little further. Because once you have fucked her, you still want to discover what person she really is, before deciding if she can have a place in your life. That's why at this stage, it is very premature to even think about giving her a place.

Again, I forget that some things need to be explained, haha, because technically it's the woman's job to push you two into a relationship and as she's making moves to bring the two of you closer together you're figuring out her place in your life. So, you shouldn't be prematurely deciding anything because it isn't your job to say "I want you to be XYZ."

-Richard

 

[ThePhoenix]

Some very good wisdom from Richard & Seppuku.

Goddammit. I've been a bit stuck thinking "if only I had done X" or "maybe if I now do Y".

Yeah, it happens. If just now I got out Nyakim (breathtaking tall dark South Sudanese model) and missed an escalation, I would have similar thoughts!

But you need to be wary of the "X is the top woman in the world" mentality. I've been badly messed up by that thinking in the past. But at the end of the day, I've always ironically wound up finding some other woman I liked better. Sometimes even my "type" has changed somewhat (though not completely) over time.

Plus, it probably makes it much harder to keep the right frame, when in your own mind she is a "one and only". The model I got out was beautiful but not my exact type (broadly, yes, but exactly, no), which probably made it easier.

Another thing I think we do sometimes is get "lazy" and on some level think, "well, I already put the work in and she was so receptive, so if only Y will work now, it's easier than starting on a new girl." But ironically it probably is not.

Uhh... not entirely! I definitely want to date more physique bodybuilders and she was probably the top in the world to my taste. So I need to find a way to frame this experience in my mind that doesn't rob me of future possibilities and confidence. Average sounds so ... average. I'm more about the extraordinary.

Totally understandable and I would certainly keep pursuing this type. With that said, you might be doing yourself a disservice to restrict yourself to just them.

Seduction is a skill that requires ample data points and experience. I'm not there yet myself, but from what I've gathered so far it seems reasonable to say you'll need 100 to 200 seductions to become quite good at it (but perhaps someone with more experience will chime in with a better estimate). This in turn probably amounts to several thousand approaches.

So you really need to look at the size of the pool you're taking approaches from, because when it's too small, bad things start to happen. You don't get as much practice, and worse, things may not go so well with the girls you do practice on, because you perceive them as being a scarce resource and so lose your outcome independence. (Plus, arguably, you're more rapidly burning options you may have done better to save for when your skills are better honed - I'd rather botch a bunch of A's and B's than botch all the AAAA's I have access to and then have a much harder time finding one for LTR.)

I'm guessing female physique bodybuilders are not a dime a dozen right off the get go, and add to that being palatable and appealing in other ways, and you're probably looking at a tiny minority of the general population.

Me, I'm very largely only attracted to black women. They're some 10% in my city, and even that has a noticeable impact. I'm making progress but it would definitely be faster if I would be more inclusive. There's actually a certain rather specific type of black woman I want, but restricting myself to a minority of a minority is out of the question. I am considering relocating to Africa for a while, because I would greatly appreciate the tremendous increase in the fraction of women around me that I feel an attraction for. Thus, from my perspective I can say, you really don't want the pool to be too small.

Phoenix