Is GAME overrated?

[Skjöldr]

If you're mass approaching to build up a skillset, you can actually end up in a headspace that's distant from your instinctual/animal attraction for some time, until you come back around. Going from novice to intermediate can actually lower results for a while. This is common in skill building, you start with beginner's luck because you're at least coming from an instinctual place, then you go through a very long and tedious struggle through intermediacy where you're intentionally removed from your instinct and overthink everything to expand your experience and knowledge, until you end up a master coming from an instinctual place with a massive foundation behind it.

Lol made my comment before reading this how tf...... dude you're a mindreader or something. SPOT ON.

 

[Skjöldr]

Objectively humans are made to mate and they will. Theres someone for everybody.

8,000 Years Ago, 17 Women Reproduced for Every One Man

An analysis of modern DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture.

psmag.com

Yieeah... not really

 

[Rakehell]

8,000 Years Ago, 17 Women Reproduced for Every One Man

An analysis of modern DNA uncovers a rough dating scene after the advent of agriculture.

psmag.com

Yieeah... not really

Hardly applies to now

 

[Skjöldr]

Hardly applies to now

I have provided evidence that humans as a species did not evolve to have a someone for everyone, less than half of men ever mated and had offspring. We see it in every other species as well. What is your evidence that everybody born have had someone specially made for them? Because I don't see it. There doesn't seem to be any scientific evidence.

 

[JollyRoger]

I would say that game is underrated these days. There was a great purge in the 2010s when simultaneously the whole scene became over saturated with sub-par coaches and the OGs mostly left and their knowledge and experience was mostly forgotten. This forum seems to be one of the few places still keeping that experience alive.

 

[Zoro]

I think we've established that your friend got lucky and is temporarily having a good time, but is not necessarily in an enviable position.

So now let's talk about your game.

I agree with @ulrich on the three points he gave you.

My first thoughts:
- Are you seeding the dates? (doesn’t seem like you get them excited on a future plan meeting with you)
- Texting could definitely be better (it looks to me like you ramble too much and try to raise their buying temperature without moving things forward. Try a full logistics texting style)
- Some of these girls you give up a little too soon

I think you're not doing too bad during the initial approach. But you gave us the highlights. You might benefit from making a journal and including some recent "fuck ups" too. And since your texting could use some work including text convos as well.

"Hola Guapo ".

This was good.

Thank you (assuming that SHE called me handsome). *No response*. Next day she sent Hi Shawn, Good morning. I replied after a couple of hrs: Hola Linda, how was the party with your Argentinian friends? *Radio Silence*

Here's where I think you're going wrong in general. You're kind of letting go of the reins and just chatting. With texting, less is more. Jokes are risky because you don't have voice tone and body language to back them up.

So, I texted her saying "Our romantic love life is over". She responded immediately apologising that she had a shitty day and she'll talk to me next day. Next day I texted her and she said she was busy at work and I said, NP, we'll talk later. Teased her, "Stop thinking of me while working" and she responded "You are very self-confident ". I said "No I'm very shy, I just talk to video gamers online" (Sarcastically. She was flirtatious. So, I thought she'll get the joke) *Radio Silence*

Wouldn't be surprised if she took that joke literally. Sarcasm over texting is risky, since it relies heavily on tone and body language. Even if your jokes land right, its still not worth it. You're not really gaming her. That happens in person.

There are more examples, but I think you get the point.

I would do two things with your "phone game".

1. Stop chatting and flirting over text, and instead keep it simple, but warm, with the focus on logistics of the date.

2. Call her up if you feel like you need to build more of a connection, but remember that should be done during the initial in person interaction.

 

[Warped Mindless]

Ive known quite a few legit hotties that will ONLY ever date down because of some major insecurities along with some amount of wanting to have a feeling of “power” over their partner. They are never happy and the relationship rarely last long.

Who cares?

Go meet some women.

 

[ElderPrice]

I totally get that and I am in the same boat of loneliness but I have learnt to deal with it somehow or with cold-approach. Whenever I feel depressed, I pick myself up and go meet a few girls and just a few good conversations will make me feel better.

@Shawn - I think you should meditate on this.

1) You’re outright stating that you feel lonely.

2) You’re outright stating that girls provide you with external validation and make you feel better.

How do you think these affect your vibe when you’re approaching literally any woman?

 

[Rakehell]

I have provided evidence that humans as a species did not evolve to have a someone for everyone, less than half of men ever mated and had offspring. We see it in every other species as well. What is your evidence that everybody born have had someone specially made for them? Because I don't see it. There doesn't seem to be any scientific evidence.

The article you linked was a hypothesis, hardly serves as evidence. But giving it the benefit of the doubt by your same reasoning guy’s with the most social status, education, and money, would have all the women on a much larger scale than before.

Basically it’s red pill and hypergamy. I just don’t see that playing out in the real world, maybe it’s different for you.

Not sure how this relates to game or the thread or my post.

 

[Terms]

There’s a lot of truth to the “there’s someone for everyone” cliche, because we’ve organized society that way.

It’s a sociological construct, not a biological one.

Though perhaps there’s a certain amount of sociological inevitability there do to indirect biological influence. Any high functioning alpha will inevitably recognize that his society (and thus his own life) is smoother if the average Joe gets at least one slice of pussy often enough. The betas want this too so it’s a win/win that seems to win over in many more societies than not. The alpha still fucks all he wants but all the dudes around him are content enough to not push against the system.

 

[Skjöldr]

The article you linked was a hypothesis, hardly serves as evidence. But giving it the benefit of the doubt by your same reasoning guy’s with the most social status, education, and money, would have all the women on a much larger scale than before.

Basically it’s red pill and hypergamy. I just don’t see that playing out in the real world, maybe it’s different for you.

Not sure how this relates to game or the thread or my post.

Alot of guys never have kids. Maybe you don't meet them, but I worked on a factory with blue collar working middle-class guys there. Out of the 6 male workers there aged 32-60 only 2 of them had families. They live in the villages and the smaller cities. You don't see them. So yes, it is true. Alot of men end up never having children. They might not be virgins and they might even have a girlfriend or some kind of romantic relationship, but they don't have kids or they are raising her children. That's the truth man. There isn't someone for everybody. There is only what you can attract. And some men aren't attractive. They simply don't count.

It's like what Michael Sartain is saying. Go to walmart and ask yourself "who is fucking these guys?"

 

[Calibration]

I used to have this hot female friend who would always hook up with weird, nerdy guys.

The first time I saw it, she was hooking up with this high-pitched voice nerdy coworker of mine. I was like, "How the heck did he get her? He must have some kind of secret game I don't know about!" Well, a couple months went by and they broke up after he apparently pushed for them to be more than FWB but she didn't want that.

She then proceeded to date one nerdy guy after another, each of whom pushed for something serious with her, but she'd dump. Meanwhile my nerdy coworker went through a long dry spell of not getting laid at all, and began reading The Game.

I have also had several very good-looking girlfriends who dated nerdy no-game guys before me. Their history with these men was always the same:

1. See some nerdy guy they liked for whatever arcane reason. Often these guys had been alone for a long time and many of them were virgins
   
   
2. Approach the guy or otherwise get the guy to come talk to her. Start dating him
   
   
3. After a while, realize she is bored with him, or that he is getting a lot more attached to her than she is to him, and break up

If you saw the nerdy guy with this hot girl when they were dating, you would probably say, "Wow! How did he get THAT girl?!"

But then if you saw him chasing her around after she dumped him, spending years celibate trying to recapture his former hot girl glory, you would become less impressed with this guy's "secret game."

One ex-boyfriend of one of my girlfriends spent two years trying to get her back. He tried to move to the city she'd relocated to to be with her; she told him "no." Finally at one point she had a bunch of drama with me and this poor sop, still chasing after her, called her, and she put him on the phone with me... I don't know if she wanted him to scold me into behaving better or what. He just sighed in depression when he found himself talking to this guy (me) fucking the girl he wanted to wed.

One more story: in my pre-seduction days I had this boss who was about 6'4". He was dating this stripper who would bring random girls home with her for threesomes with her. I thought, "Wow, how'd he get that girl?" I figured he must be a whiz with girls. Then they broke up and he spent about six months celibate. When he finally got a new girlfriend, it was this short, round girl, no taller than 5'00" and VERY round. Once when she visited the shop, after she'd left, my boss smiled wryly and said, "The all feel the same once you turn out the light "

Yeah, sure. But obviously he does not have some super secret way of picking up hot girls.

Every one of these situations I have seen where it is "average or unattractive game-less man ends up with hot girl" it is due to the girl having some kind of insecurity, and her either triggering the approach or making the approach herself upon a man she feels is "safe."

The sad part for these guys is their one lifetime hot girl experience usually ends in heartbreak, because she's out of the guy's league, the guy knows it, he puts her on a pedestal, and she gets bored and leaves.

Now... if you ever see a guy like this and he is REGULARLY smashing hot girls... or he gets hot girlfriends, and then gets them completely devoted to him... then pay a lot closer attention, because he's got some kind of game, even if you don't recognize what it is at first.

But yeah, otherwise, you will see outlier events, where a hot-but-insecure girl or a hot-but-likes-to-be-in-control girl targets nerdy, less attractive men because they make her feel safer or because she can control them.

These girls will date strings of such men... but each guy like this will usually only ever get one or maybe two fleeting chances with girls like this.

There are many more unattractive, nerdy, game-less men than there are hot girls who want to date them, I'm afraid.

That's why you learn game though. If you don't want to sit around for 5-6 years, waiting for your 3-month merry-go-round with the hot girl who likes nerds, you need to have skills you can use to reliably bring women into your life, instead.

Chase

If all you guys are saying that it was a one-off, then there definitely must be an element of truth and I'm doing something seriously wrong which is why I'm not getting any results despite grinding so much. BTW, my friend said he spoke to her yesterday for a couple of hours over the phone and he overheard her flatmate asking her "Which one is this?". So, he is a bit depressed today. Although I don't want him to be lonely again, I also don't want him to be heart-broken.

@Shawn, I quickly glanced over the girls you mention.

My first thoughts:
- Are you seeding the dates? (doesn’t seem like you get them excited on a future plan meeting with you)
- Texting could definitely be better (it looks to me like you ramble too much and try to raise their buying temperature without moving things forward. Try a full logistics texting style)
- Some of these girls you give up a little too soon

Also, what impression do girls get from you? Are you coming across as confident or shy? Socially saavy or somewhat uncalibrated?

Not sure how to answer this, when I meet them they look like they are very interested to meet again but I don't know what happens later. As mentioned earlier, I follow Skills method (open > banter > high point soft close > hard close if she bites) of texting these days since I used to struggle with texting a lot more than now, with direct logistics method. IDK, what's going wrong though.. With all of the girls that I mentioned, I was very confident. I have a very low-energy approach which comes across as confident. My body language is very positive and I guess that's how it doesn't go anywhere when I switch to texting.

I think we've established that your friend got lucky and is temporarily having a good time, but is not necessarily in an enviable position.

So now let's talk about your game.

I agree with @ulrich on the three points he gave you.



I think you're not doing too bad during the initial approach. But you gave us the highlights. You might benefit from making a journal and including some recent "fuck ups" too. And since your texting could use some work including text convos as well.

I don't know what can be considered a fuck-up cos if I plough too much its bad and if I let it go, they never return. I don't know where exactly I'm going wrong. I don't know if everyone agrees with this but I think all girls are different and same kind of game doesn't work for 2 different girls. For ex: If I take time to reply a text, one girl may not care but another girl may think I'm playing games and she may ghost me. Also, if I reply quickly, one girl may think I'm too needy and desperate and another girl may think I'm interested. IDK.. maybe I'm just getting unlucky with what I try and that doesn't work with the girl I'm trying..

This was good.

Here's where I think you're going wrong in general. You're kind of letting go of the reins and just chatting. With texting, less is more. Jokes are risky because you don't have voice tone and body language to back them up.



Wouldn't be surprised if she took that joke literally. Sarcasm over texting is risky, since it relies heavily on tone and body language. Even if your jokes land right, its still not worth it. You're not really gaming her. That happens in person.

There are more examples, but I think you get the point.

I would do two things with your "phone game".

1. Stop chatting and flirting over text, and instead keep it simple, but warm, with the focus on logistics of the date.

2. Call her up if you feel like you need to build more of a connection, but remember that should be done during the initial in person interaction.

The Ukrainian girl that I mentioned, ghosted me after I tried calling her. In fact, I had sent a text saying I'll call her around 7 PM before I called but she still ghosted me.

@Shawn - I think you should meditate on this.

1) You’re outright stating that you feel lonely.

2) You’re outright stating that girls provide you with external validation and make you feel better.

How do you think these affect your vibe when you’re approaching literally any woman?

Funny, when I started out I was quite successful right off the bat. I think it was my energy. I was fully optimistic, totally happy one day, crying about some girl the next day. I banged 4 girls within my first 6 weeks of daygame and then only 2 girls the next 7 months. What happened was that I got lost alot of that energy, but my game didn't level up to proportionally to cover my loss, so it would have to be 8-9 months until I was back on track again. Right now everything is alot more tight around my game. Text game the most probably. So now if I'm feeling the same as the beginner's luck energy, I will do better. I gotta admit, I have definitely gotten more blackpilled since I started out and more self-sabotaging, I have lost my "innocence", difference is that now I can get better results despite of it. So on a day where I'm feeling good, I clean up.

This should also be a lesson to how important your energy and vibe is, which I consider part of "game"...

Both of you mentioned about vibe. Perhaps, this is my sticking point and this is where I'm fucking up things.. Does vibe over text matter? How do I maintain a good vibe both in person and over text? Do you have any reading material for this? BTW, I meditate everyday without fail

 

[ElderPrice]

Both of you mentioned about vibe. Perhaps, this is my sticking point and this is where I'm fucking up things.. Does vibe over text matter? How do I maintain a good vibe both in person and over text? Do you have any reading material for this? BTW, I meditate everyday without fail

For the purpose of this discussion, I consider vibe to be basically how you feel about yourself on the inside. Not a mood. Beliefs. That feeling will come across in your actions and body language. Yes, it’ll even come across in texting.

Before diving into reading material, you have to think about/meditate on why your mind is wired in a way where women provide you external validation. What does that say about you? What limiting beliefs does this reveal about yourself?

The exercise before you may be to build your self-esteem/internal validation. In essence, that expression ‘you have to believe in what you’re selling if you want others to buy it.’ Your goal will be to believe in yourself so much that reactions from women don’t affect you - you don’t need good reactions to feel good about yourself. A good starter exercise would be creating a list of ‘10 reasons why I am the best decision a girl can make.’

I can see a little later if I can find some GC articles on the subject. But if you’ve been studying seduction, you probably already know the subject matter. It’s now just a matter of sitting down and diving into the wiring of your mind to address this blatant red flag.

As you work on this, your vibe will start changing automatically.

 

[ulrich]

Whatever is happening on text is a reflection of something that is happening on person before.

I think it will help us a lot if next time, you can describe the interaction to a T.

Also, I insist… doesn’t seem like you’re seeding the date.

 

[Skills]

Not sure how to answer this, when I meet them they look like they are very interested to meet again but I don't know what happens later. As mentioned earlier, I follow Skills method (open > banter > high point soft close > hard close if she bites) of texting these days since I used to struggle with texting a lot more than now, with direct logistics method. IDK, what's going wrong though.. With all of the girls that I mentioned, I was very confident. I have a very low-energy approach which comes across as confident. My body language is very positive and I guess that's how it doesn't go anywhere when I switch to texting.

^ that is a structure, but calibration plays a part, brah! you met a girl at a shopping mall after opening you said "lets celebrate your supermarket shopping success" a bit autistic if you ask me... There needs to be calibration and common sense, in person to person or texting scenarios.... Now @Skjöldr used to be autistic like that, eventually he got it, and succeeded, you need to go through a lot of trial and error, as you are making more approaches in person and follow up texting, you will notice patterns of what works and what does not, then you will calibrate accordingly..... A lot of seducers for some reason are extremely socially awkward, i joke around and call them autistic, but they are not, is that they are so far out of being socially normal than sometimes it takes a bit more time, seriously sometimes i am even wow, this is common sense, like who says lets celebrate your supermarket shopping success, again peter and even Skippy would do stuff like this, But again eventually as you keep interacting 2 things happens: - you become less awkward (as long as you keep journalizing and people chime in to show you how some stuff is weird) and 2 you get numb to rejections, you don't take it personal..... a structure and samples still requires calibration, and practice, journalizing is key...

 

[StrayDog]

^ that is a structure, but calibration plays a part, brah! you met a girl at a shopping mall after opening you said "lets celebrate your supermarket shopping success" a bit autistic if you ask me... There needs to be calibration and common sense, in person to person or texting scenarios.... Now @Skjöldr used to be autistic like that, eventually he got it, and succeeded, you need to go through a lot of trial and error, as you are making more approaches in person and follow up texting, you will notice patterns of what works and what does not, then you will calibrate accordingly..... A lot of seducers for some reason are extremely socially awkward, i joke around and call them autistic, but they are not, is that they are so far out of being socially normal than sometimes it takes a bit more time, seriously sometimes i am even wow, this is common sense, like who says lets celebrate your supermarket shopping success, again peter and even Skippy would do stuff like this, But again eventually as you keep interacting 2 things happens: - you become less awkward (as long as you keep journalizing and people chime in to show you how some stuff is weird) and 2 you get numb to rejections, you don't take it personal..... a structure and samples still requires calibration, and practice, journalizing is key...

I can relate to this. I have said some weird dumb shit. especially over text, like wow, wtf dude. I have no idea where I picked up the notion that that kind of shit would land. Thought I was being clever or something. I don't know. I shudder to think of some of the dumb texts I have sent, just floating around out there in the world somewhere. The more I cut that shit out of my game and just focusing on relating to the women I approach, the more success I see in general. Sure I still joke and banter, but it relates to our interaction and vibe. It is not just some cheesy shit I am tacking on to the conversation for who knows what reason. Have a reason why you are saying what you're saying, and don't have appearing clever or fun be one of those reasons. What ever reason you have to say what you say, make sure it is about relating to her.

 

[Skills]

I can relate to this. I have said some weird dumb shit. especially over text, like wow, wtf dude. I have no idea where I picked up the notion that that kind of shit would land. Thought I was being clever or something. I don't know. I shudder to think of some of the dumb texts I have sent, just floating around out there in the world somewhere. The more I cut that shit out of my game and just focusing on relating to the women I approach, the more success I see in general. Sure I still joke and banter, but it relates to our interaction and vibe. It is not just some cheesy shit I am tacking on to the conversation for who knows what reason. Have a reason why you are saying what you're saying, and don't have appearing clever or fun be one of those reasons. What ever reason you have to say what you say, make sure it is about relating to her.

yeah we all do is normal and part of the process, and even if you fuck up, women are not this evil creature with agendas they forgive a lot at times, is ok, but what you said about focusing of relating to women is gold.... Good stuff...

 

[StrayDog]

@Shawn. I could be mistaken cause I haven't seen you out in field, but my guess (from everything you have written) is that you are coming across as too gamey. It sounds like you are really trying to run routines based on the things you have read, but are failing to spark a more genuine sense of connection. Women can sense when you are just trying to run technical game. It feels off to them, too routine. Even if there is some spark there they walk away feeling like something didn't click. It is not about applying technique defacto to any situation. Any given technique is just there to support the process, should you need it. Technique should arrive naturally, not be pushed into the situation. For example a chase frame. These make tons of sense when all the conditions are right to implement them. But if you are just dropping it for the sake of it, and other elements that are neccesary to make it land are not present she is going to be thinking "this presumptuous dude, what trip is he on." We all make these mistakes, especially when we are trying new techniques out or have just been reading too much about game. My reccomendation would be to drop a lot of the more technical aspects you are trying to implement (at least for now) and focus on two things. 1: building a more solid relatable connection. Just focus on finding where you two really connect and building on that. Make sure she understands (on an emotional level) why the two of you getting together males sense. 2: Seed the date. Gather logistics early in the interaction. What's she up to that day, what's her week usually like, what's she do for a living. Any info that helps you orient around logistics. If you start this process early in the convo it feels more natural later when you come back to it and suggest you two get together. Make the plans then and there while you are grabbing her number.

My main point is, trim the fat off for now. Try to drop anything that feels too routine, and focus on hooking and seeding the date. If any technique arrives natural fine. But don't force it.

 

[Beam]

I just saw a girl I approached two weeks ago (not a knockout but cute, tall and busty) who was a bit standoffish walking hand in hand with a short, scrawny nerdy looking dude with super feminine body language and thought of this post immediately. Obviously I don't know the dude and he might have game, but I wonder if it's becoming more common now for girls to date dudes like this just because there are more of them now and so they are more familiar.

 

[ulrich]

I just saw a girl I approached two weeks ago (not a knockout but cute, tall and busty) walking hand in hand with a short, scrawny nerdy looking dude with super feminine body language and thought of this post immediately. Obviously I don't know the dude and he might have game, but I wonder if it's becoming more common now for girls to date dudes like this just because there are more of them now and so they are more familiar.

I think women lately are more and more encouraged by massive media to pursue relationships where they lead.

As a result, we have some confident and controlling women chasing not so masculine guys.
Nerds, geeks, softboys, manchildren…

The girls I know doing that don’t seem very happy with the end result, tough… rather conforming.