Is there rising entitlement and/or declining motivation in both sexes around dating?

[West_Indian_Archie]

In light of what @Skills is saying, Lemme Redux what I said.

The Red Pill has been on the rise since 2008 with Roissy/Roosh/Rollo. The discourse has gone from jaded/cynical PUAs (well not Rollo - married man with daughters) into fire-breathing misogynists, and later into alt-right territory.

These new RP guys (Entrepreneur with Cars, Turd Flinging Monkey, etc) have attracted a lot of attention, and that's created a 2nd generation of angry men that do not have the benefit of being successful PUAs. Mix in all of the other stuff going online, and from an online perspective things look really bleak.

Now throw in the internet taking over everything - and now it's a mainstream way to meet and date for regular people (no one would admit to that in 2006).

The static/visual/disconnected medium of online dating is bad for the average guy, but a different kind of bad than "The Red Pill" bad. ( RP bad is not the apocalyptic hell state that Red Pill Gurus make it out to be).

With online dating, you need a good profile, good pics, know what good pics look like, a good bio, a good text sequence, patience and no ego. Guys expect INSTANT RESULTS, instant feedback. They don't know how to deal with the vagueness of online dating.

With the Red Pill, girls have cheated on guys since the beginning of time. That's not reason to throw the entire gender into the garbage can. Folks there have that familiar divorce rape argument. I keep wanting to say "Fam, you wasn't getting married in the first place...."

In both cases, the average guy isn't doing much to make himself attractive. But that's always been the case. Guys have known about body building since the 70's. They have know about money, power, and fame since the creation of man and woman.

The vast majority didn't do it then, and they don't do it now. Many don't try. The few that do half ass it. Those that stay in a bit longer give up before the hit gold. (much like building businesses) That's why the average LIFETIME lay count for a man is 7.

For a lot of Rookies, PUA and basic Red Pill Stuff has a placebo effect. This is really the first time they've taken their dating lives seriously. Hopefully they get enough positive results to take it even more seriously.

For us, the field is still the field. Despite me being in my 40s, I can almost always light up a girl in her 20's. And if I mess with a 35+, she's willing to do anything.

Girls haven't substantially changed. The only real issue I've seen in the past decade is that I have to be more engaging than her phone. (But so does she)

All of that in context, I do think men and women are lonelier because of smartphones/internet/seamless/ubereats/uber/facebook/instagram and modern life. Trillions of dollars are being spent to make us isolate ourselves.

Isolation can come from porn. Porn does not have complications. Point and click. No dealing with femininity. No dealing with a person. No needing to improve your behavior, learn patience, learn courage, set boundaries, etc.

With the females, they can get their equivalent with likes/hearts/matches without ever having to engage in the drudgery of masculinity. When a guy steps up in real life, or meets her after a negotiated internet date - she often does not know how to behave. And the guy on the other side does not know how to instruct.

Women are getting everything they say they want and they aren't happy. The things they want are making them unhappy.

You can't point these things out and have folks realize the errors in their ways. They fight harder for them.

WIA

 

[Chase]

Bunch of fascinating replies and great perspectives here, gents. Lots to consider.

====

@ZacAdam,

I think you're saying, "Things are harder now and that's just reality. Chase saying guys are being negative by saying things are harder now is Chase's framing."

====

@Rakkum,

Yes, there are studies on it. I think men's average testosterone is down by either 1/3 or 1/2 since the 1950s (across all male age groups). It's rather striking.

If you're getting a lot of ghosting, several things to try troubleshooting:

- If your interactions are longer than 2 minutes before you grab contact details, try cutting them shorter
- If they're already short and it's still happening, test some different kinds of flirtations in the initial interaction to try to leave stronger impressions
- Make sure you're following good texting protocol: icebreaker once you meet, standard scheduler text the next day
- Also test going beyond text messages: voicemails or video messages, so she can get another taste of your personality off text

====

@POB,

Online's certainly having an impact.

I do wonder how MUCH of one, though. Tinder is 80% male... and while every girl might be on Instagram, they're not all Instagram stars (not even all the gorgeous ones).

Add to that the low quality of the attention, compared to real world attention...

Younger guys and girls generally being less skilled is definitely accurate.

Lack of patience / nobody is worthy / "screw this, let me just get back on an app" -- yes, would tie in with the entitlement side of things.

====

@West_Indian_Archie,

Oh yeah, the porn/weed/web/games quadfecta has really done a number on men.

I have seen so many guys complaining about erection problems. I used to scratch my head over it, until I started asking them, "Do you stroke it to porn? Do you smoke weed?"

"Yes... yes."

"Well, there you go. Quit that and your dick will start working for real life women again."

"I want to but it's hard."

They get addicted to this stuff and it just knocks them partly out of the dating game. Otherwise cool dudes who just are a lot less into sex than they otherwise would be, and can't perform when it's go time.

The point on women prioritizing career is interesting.

There's another wrinkle to that, which I think is often missed: we're all limited in the amount of time and focus we can devote to various life projects. And the more energy someone is pouring into a career, the less focus and energy she has for things like maintaining her appearance.

Some women still manage that fine (particularly those who are very appearance-aware). But it does detract.

There's also the fact that the personality a woman needs to excel in her career is not usually the same as the personality she needs to appeal most to mates. And as she improves herself in one, she generally worsens herself in the other.

====

@DarkStallion,

You think the nightlife is causal for women's motivation?

Seems more likely it's an effect to me... one would assume if women were motivated to hit the nightlife, the guys would still be following and paying for things, and nightlife would still be in full swing.

Probably more a victim of the motivation decline than the reverse, I'd think.

Everything else, yeah.

Women not being able to offer as much in terms of relationship value, and men also not being able to offer as much in terms of relationship value, might well be a thing.

I'm still sort of debating it though. Every time I think it's a real phenomenon I stumble on some 100-year-old newspaper editorial where the guy is complaining about how modern women from the 1920s can't cook or clean or keep a neat house anymore the way their mothers could...

====

@Starboy,

Geez, look at that chick's list! That's the granddaddy of partner wish lists.

Most average face in the world under the makeup, with fake boobs, a fat belly, fat butt, and fat thighs. And a huge fat list.

I have noticed that a lot of these "makeup & gym beautiful" girls (who are not actually all that good-looking minus the makeup, gym, and silicone) have the longest lists.

Maybe it's something like, "I did all this work to get to where I am. So now I deserve the best."

She's the kind of girl you meet at the club and she puts her hand up in your face when you try to approach, and you want to be like, "Man, I wasn't even interested, just trying to warm up with you, geez!"

But if guys are following girls like this online en masse and these girls are up to their usual tricks there, it's like multiplying that club experience x10,000 and spreading it to the masses.

No wonder there is this mass impression of men thinking women are unreasonable if there's that kind of thing going on...

Yes, with the bleak, unhappy men -- I am getting the impression from this thread that most guys seem to think there might be some change in the mating market, but not THAT much compared to where it was before.

We're just encountering a bunch more ticked off men, self-isolated in their dating app/social media bubbles, and angry that the abundant women promised by those technologies have turned into wraiths.

====

@Lover,

Average people complaining about not being recognized for being good enough... yes, that could well be.

Certainly that's the case for social media, which is quicksand for the average man.

====

@Klimax,

Great anecdotes.

Sounds like everything's normal with normal folks where you are, basically unchanged from the state of things over the past several decades.

At least comparing how things are with average folks there, compared with how things were with average folks 15-20 years ere.

====

@MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla,

So divorce risk is putting men off marriage, and people not having money in the first place due to joblessness puts people off dating -- I think that is your point, correct?

And average people not being able to measure up to the high bar recommended for dating success (although dating apps in general are always going to be the single most brutal, ruthless dating environment for men... they have the worst female:male ratios this side of federal prison).

====

@Skills,

So social media is making women too intimidating to men, causing men to check out, and women are lonely.

I agree the OnlyFans thing is just a boogeyman.

You always have strippers, prostitutes, cam girls, etc. The rise in OnlyFans cam girls is not having a real effect on the dating market I don't think. But it may be having a market on the impression men have of that market...

Just lol the whole post from beginning to end is an undercover red pill post, mods ban chase and lock the post...

lol!

Got me, Skills.

Time to go crawling back to /r/MGTOW...

====

@DarkKnight confirms he's seeing a definite change in cooperative prosocial dating behavior. Basically a descent into dating anarchy.

Though that might be part of the normal urbanization process, DarkKnight. That same thing happened in the U.S. 120 years ago, during the great migration to the cities (which really started in the 1880s).

In China the migration to the cities only really began in the 1980s, and you didn't see traditional means of date/spouse-finding start breaking down until recently. People still get date introductions from family members there, though that is breaking down now with all the migration and urban anonymity, same as happend in the U.S. a century before.

So could well just be the urban breakdown of rural traditions that happens during large urban migrations.

====

I think after going through the responses in this thread I am getting the impression that, while there might be some rise in entitlement and decline in motivation, the biggest problem is really perceptual:

Guys are spending way too much time hanging out on social media, swiping endlessly on apps, and getting dazzled by mid-tier flash chicks with 500-word "requirements for my man" lists on Instagram, showing off their mediocre assets on OnlyFans. Then these guys lay back and smoke a bowl and complain to their buddies about how entitled women today are and how unrealistic their standards are. Meanwhile not having barely approached a live women in the real world in ages.

All right, this clears it up for me.

Somewhat of a relief then, that it seems like it isn't actually getting THAT much harder for ordinary men.

They simply are jammed up hoping/trying in all the wrong places, and getting discouraged by the stupidest things.

Chase

 

[Protean]

Starting in January my younger brother started coming to me for tips regarding girls at his high school. I didn't point him toward any seduction resources (I know he wouldn't read them), but I gave him some sensible advice that everyone here knows:

• Be discreet - Don't brag about anything you do with girls and they'll learn that they can do things with you and not have the entire world hear about it
• An easy way to get yourself alone with a girl is to give some plausible excuse for having her come somewhere with you. Girls don't want to look like sluts

And with that he quickly went on to lose his virginity and mess around with a handful of other girls.

And no this guy is NOT captain of the football team or anything. He's pretty much of average popularity.

But from what he tells me (and I've been able to verify), every time he shoots he scores. Girls his age are ridiculously welcoming of his advances. Whenever I ask how other guys at his school do. Outside of a small handful of other players, he told me that weirdly most guys don't even try to do anything with girls. There's more talk about their favorite porn stars than the hottest girls in the grade...

That's the only thing that separates my brother from his competition. He does not watch porn and never has. I know this for a fact as our parents have uber strict parental controls on his phone (no Safari, no apps, texts monitored), and they monitor his computer usage like a hawk.Yet the only thing he needed to get laid was a couple pointers in the right direction. His natural desire did the rest.

In fact he tells me he has no interest in ever watching porn, "Protean, once you've experienced the real thing I don't understand how watching it can compare."

This is all to say that this world we're living in where men have low desire to go out and get women is NOT normal. I'm convinced internet pornography along with other easy dopamine highs (Fast Food, YouTube, etc) have neutered the modern man compared to his forefathers. As Chase says it's easy to live a comfortable life in the West. "Sex" is always a few taps away. Cheap delicious food. Hours of entertainment of YouTube and Netflix. It all comes so fast, so easily, the dating game should function the same way right?

I'm embarrassed to say that unlike my younger sibling internet and porn addiction have been struggles for me. When I'm right the difference in my game, drive, and overall ambition are night and day.

While I highly doubt porn is the end all be all of this phenomenon, it plays a huge role in my eyes. Women aren't going to go out there and make sex happen.

Protean

 

[DarkStallion]

@Chase,

To clarify, I think nightlife is both a victim and amplifier of declining motivation for dating. At its core, I think declining motivation for nightlife comes from a generational shift. When compared to older generations, young millennials and Zommers drink, socialize, and date less.

That being said, I predict that a loss in nightlife decreases motivation for dating among some girls.
1. I think declining nightlife would flood the romantic dating scene with club players.
2. While many girls never met anyone "serious" at clubs, these nights out kept their social groups together. These social groups allowed for setups and more sober introductions. With smaller and weaker social groups (particularly after college), women are more likely relying on apps and day-game approaches (which most men are not doing). Many girls hate this.
________________________________________________________________________

It's true that people have been similar things about the decline of dating standards forever. There's at least one major difference, though. Until recently, middle-class and wealthy women always had structure around dating. Whether it be arranged marriages, introductions by family members, or just plain peer pressure, women were pushed into dating. While some of this still exists, society has moved away from this pressure. There are pros and cons from the male perspective. Pros: when you find someone serious, they are more likely to really be into your rather than pressured to take a man. Cons: it seems many men do better in structured environments. Many men fail to get off the ground when this is taken away.
_________________________________________________________________________

I think you're probably right that it's more a perception than reality problem. One factor that should be considered regarding perception (that hasn't been mentioned) is age. Back in the day, you could easily get a girl in the 20-24 range serious in you and even marry. Nowadays that age range generally wants less serious. Are men still chasing this age range for serious relationships and ending up frustrated? There are many (in my opinion quality) girls 25-30 nowadays that want serious. On the flip side, men have to be a bit older than previous generations to land serious relationships - unless their game is tight. Are men frustrated that they have to wait longer even if the end result is the same (or better)?

 

[Skjöldr]

These new RP guys (Entrepreneur with Cars, Turd Flinging Monkey, etc) have attracted a lot of attention, and that's created a 2nd generation of angry men that do not have the benefit of being successful PUAs. Mix in all of the other stuff going online, and from an online perspective things look really bleak.

Oh man i fucking hate those guys. Zero practical advice, it's just circle jerking mental masturbation whining. I get recommended videos on youtube all the time like "Top 5 reasons not to date a single mother" "Secrets women don't want men to know" "Woman turns 30 and hits the wall, no high value man wants her anymore woohoo take that stacey that's what you get for rejecting me in high school!!! women btfo" it's like....... okay? I wanna learn the sexual nature of men and women and some of the stuff you learn about female nature is pretty raw and cold and the secret society and all that, but with that knowledge i don't wanna whine about it, i wanna know practical advice on how to make the best of it. Like with the secret society and women cheating. Okay, so instead of whining about it and being the victim, how can i be the player instead? Not one of the victims but take advantage of reality and become one of the victimizers hehe

One time i put that guy entrepreneurs in cars on, the video was called "how does a poor man get a girl?" and i thought "Hey, this one was recommended to me because i'm a broke 20 year old dude who don't wanna rely on money and status to fuck" and it was just the usual generic moaning and i just put it on in the background while i was driving or doing other stuff and before i knew it the video was over and i was like "What? I literally can remember nothing useful from that video" when it shuffled on to the next video. Anything redpill/pick-up related that isn't practical is a waste of my time honestly.

 

[BigPapa]

I think the main that is happening is that people are not pursuing anything spiritual anymore , and focus too much on the material side of things .

the energy that is created in the mating dance is more on the alchemical side of things , rather than a material thing , and people do not understand this anymore .

sure guys still want to fuck , but they can not understand anymore the energies , so they just go on whatever makes them happy on the short term .

Same thing with girls . They do not know what it means to be a girl anymore , so they go on tinder ,leave their Ig profile there , and then just look how her followers increase , and then think what a femme fatale they are

i met this 20 years old girl , fucking hell she was amazing , and by how she was dressing ( this hyper sexualized way of dressing that is hip now ) I would have thought that she is super experienced . To my surprise she had only 1 partner. Maybe she was lying , but for sure there is a mismatch between appearances and reality

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

I think the main that is happening is that people are not pursuing anything spiritual anymore , and focus too much on the material side of things .

I was literally thinking this today. Specifically, when folks only look at the tangible, the flesh, the here and now and don't have something bigger than themselves - they flounder. For some it's religion, for some it's building something, for some it's children, for some it's legacy - but in my view, a human needs to look past themselves.

WIA

 

[trashKENNUT]

For some it's religion, for some it's building something, for some it's children, for some it's legacy - but in my view, a human needs to look past themselves

Also, real limitations.

To add, there's only so many Chase. There's only many GC forums. And even my blueprint that I want to share, I need to overextend myself beyond my approach.

As example, I already see beyond/before myself but I still need to communicate to you guys.

Funny because my business acquaintances, my Islamic family and friends, girls. We all the same. Once you see that everyone is limited, man... the world is very weirdly different.

Anyway, I digress. I'm just going one level deep

z@c+

 

[Starboy]

Also, real limitations.

To add, there's only so many Chase. There's only many GC forums. And even my blueprint that I want to share, I need to overextend myself beyond my approach.

As example, I already see beyond/before myself but I still need to communicate to you guys.

Funny because my business acquaintances, my Islamic family and friends, girls. We all the same. Once you see that everyone is limited, man... the world is very weirdly different.

Anyway, I digress. I'm just going one level deep

z@c+

You were raised in a muslim family too? Interesting you found your way to this field.

 

[trashKENNUT]

You were raised in a muslim family too? Interesting you found your way to this field.

Yea..... I feel something was off, and decide to explore. Also, you learn nuances from religion, asian culture. It's toxic environment when you are learning this though

Worse than cluster b girls, and CNN. Something which Westerners are forced to learn now by the situation you guys are in right now.


z@c+

 

[Whiteheart]

Many times when I read about female standards everybody thinks on social standards and that they are measured precisely and quantified what is good or bad. Truth is that every woman has her standards and that they are not tied just to social value.

Why I think that women are worse than men (at least where I live now) in dating demands. Many times I meet women who wanted man with unrealistically ideal value and attainability for relationship/sex. I had a lot of experiece (and rejections) from girls here and read a lot of forums where women write about their dating life so there are some things I consider as unrealistic expectations:

For boyfriend material:
He has to be sexy but very submissive, blindly loyal man with a lot of free time to give it to her without expecting the same from her. Also, she wants to feel Hollywood movies kind of love with him (Value).
He has to have 100% similar personality to her (not 90% or so, from my experience this is the biggest obstacle why women are alone), i.e. with identical flaws, good traits and way of thinking as her. Also, he absolutely has to be less good looking, less smart, less educated or any other kind of social value then her, because she wants to be good catch to somebody and thinks that man will respect her and provide her better (Attainability).

For lover material:
He has to be alfa scum, criminal or just occasionally stranger, i.e. man without anything to offer except sex. (Value).
Attainability still should be very high even for these men.

Why women (here) think men standards are high:
Because they don’t have and don’t want to offer much in relationship. Simply she is taught that she is beautiful creature because she is woman and that she deserves whatever she wants. She has the believe that she is ”the prize” at all costs and everything that men may ask and may harm her status as prize is considered as high standards.

And for all men they meet, they discover these men lack something from value or attainability (even if it is slightly thing) and rather choose to avoid dates and to sit home alone. Women are really pissed on men because we cannot give them what they want.

Every girl thinks ”I am who I am and I want a men who matches me”. And she never asks herself, does she deserve what she demands, and never tries to change or improve something in her (besides her look) that will make it easier for her to get what she wants.

This phenomenon is distributed across all countries and cultures, somewhere less and somewhere more. Simply depending on place or culture where someone lives there are a lot of people that are hard to please.

 

[BigPapa]

I was literally thinking this today. Specifically, when folks only look at the tangible, the flesh, the here and now and don't have something bigger than themselves - they flounder. For some it's religion, for some it's building something, for some it's children, for some it's legacy - but in my view, a human needs to look past themselves.

WIA

in south of Spain , or a close region , I do not remember exactly which , the local govermenent introduced in the curriculum a sexual class , where children are thought how to masturbate . The local government says that this will help people satisfy their needs without Having sex , and thus there will be way less teenage moms .the motto of this is something like “pleasure is in your hands “ .

now if you add this kind of things that children are thought , to the increase number of erectyle dysfunction that young men have because they have a really unhealthy lifestyle , plus a lot of women that never had a proper orgasm in their life ( according to chase and other people are saying ) , you will have a receipt for disaster .

I guess the women are like , well if he can not fuck me properly , at least to thick other things thst they think is important to at least super good in front of the rest of the world

like I said , there is a mind shift between “ sexual is amazing , and is a step towards happiness and spiritual fulfillment “ to “ sex is not that amazing , so fuck it , I would rather fulfill whatever needs I have at the moment in the most convenient and easy way possible “

 

[BigPapa]

Do you know how many times women told me this and that , only to realize after that they are not super serious about their standards ?

just to give you an example , at some point a girl does something that pissed me off really really bad , and she did this on purpose . I told her that sometimes I wonder if she is crazy or not . She went cabum, and told me that someone who says this to her does not belong in her life

then a lot of fighting back and forth , and we made peace , and she became submissive . Then after a while , I told her that I like that is a bit crazy , just that is a thin line between being interesting and being just a pain in the ass . She then told me that if it would have been anyone else telling her this , that person would have been Out of her life , but she respects my opinion and knows that I just want only what is good for her .

As a summary , most of the check list a woman has , is more or less a shit test

 

[MuST0BtA1NSkR1Lla]

BAF9391-E-CC2-F-4361-B7-AD-30-BF8-BF7-D975 hosted at ImgBB

Image BAF9391-E-CC2-F-4361-B7-AD-30-BF8-BF7-D975 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

This was on my feed,

There use to be a guy on Sedfast called NWP, besides being an odd guy he did make a good point about one thing.

We are living under times where young women’s values are shooting through the roof. I can’t wait to see how the kids of these sort of people turn out.

 

[POB]

Online's certainly having an impact.

I do wonder how MUCH of one, though. Tinder is 80% male... and while every girl might be on Instagram, they're not all Instagram stars (not even all the gorgeous ones).

@Chase,

We must remember that online been around for ages....but has been mainstream for less than a decade.

POF was founded in 2003 as a damn website!
I had a very serious GF I met there in 2006.
Back then it was considered looser behavior to get a BF or GF online.

Tinder was founded in 2012 as an app!!!
We all know that Tinder is what really got online game out of the basement and into the picture for the general public.

As time passes, there is less and less interest from younger dudes to be Alpha or have Alpha behaviors.
To be Alpha you must behave a certain way in the real world. Not only in attitude but also in feeling.
It takes A LOT of time and patience to reach that level, plus a very thick skin to deal with the avalanche of negatives!

We live in a world where everything is fast, easy and accessible. For those who walk the path, dating and (especially) establishing relationships with women you really want and desire is hard!

You must put yourself out there and fall on the ground face down a bunch of times till you get good at it. The apps give you the ILLUSION that these things are easy and simple...and they double it down because (as always) it's the dudes that are paying for all that crap. Today every dating app is designed like a drug: they don't want you to find a partner - only to hook you up as long as possible and make you pay to get the best matches.

Add to this that in nature apps are a double edged sword: you pay and get attention and pussy, sure, but once you move things further you also get a lot of flack and challenges thrown at you that they never tell you about! For women it's worse than that because they must deal with hordes of betas drooling all over the place and sucking up all their energy through meaningless attention that leads nowhere - or very uncalibrated dudes sending dick pics, asking for nudes or treating them like thrash on crappy real life dates. It's very discouraging!!!

About IG, Onlyfans and the likes, those are simply validation/moneymaking tools that women use because:
1) it's in their feminine nature to seek as much attention/favors as they can from the opposite sex;
2) they are not getting this attention/favors in the real world from men they are attracted to;

What I see:
- Women are as lonely and lost as they have never been.
- There are few real men out there to guide them and let them express their real femininity.
- You can multiply it x10 if they are extremely hot.

Hope it helps to further the discussion.

~POB

 

[DonGately]

The things they want are making them unhappy.

It's because their parents didn't teach them how and what to want.

 

[Slick]

@Chase,

We must remember that online been around for ages....but has been mainstream for less than a decade.

POF was founded in 2003 as a damn website!
I had a very serious GF I met there in 2006.
Back then it was considered looser behavior to get a BF or GF online.

Tinder was founded in 2012 as an app!!!
We all know that Tinder is what really got online game out of the basement and into the picture for the general public.

As time passes, there is less and less interest from younger dudes to be Alpha or have Alpha behaviors.
To be Alpha you must behave a certain way in the real world. Not only in attitude but also in feeling.
It takes A LOT of time and patience to reach that level, plus a very thick skin to deal with the avalanche of negatives!

We live in a world where everything is fast, easy and accessible. For those who walk the path, dating and (especially) establishing relationships with women you really want and desire is hard!

You must put yourself out there and fall on the ground face down a bunch of times till you get good at it. The apps give you the ILLUSION that these things are easy and simple...and they double it down because (as always) it's the dudes that are paying for all that crap. Today every dating app is designed like a drug: they don't want you to find a partner - only to hook you up as long as possible and make you pay to get the best matches.

Add to this that in nature apps are a double edged sword: you pay and get attention and pussy, sure, but once you move things further you also get a lot of flack and challenges thrown at you that they never tell you about! For women it's worse than that because they must deal with hordes of betas drooling all over the place and sucking up all their energy through meaningless attention that leads nowhere - or very uncalibrated dudes sending dick pics, asking for nudes or treating them like thrash on crappy real life dates. It's very discouraging!!!

About IG, Onlyfans and the likes, those are simply validation/moneymaking tools that women use because:
1) it's in their feminine nature to seek as much attention/favors as they can from the opposite sex;
2) they are not getting this attention/favors in the real world from men they are attracted to;

What I see:
- Women are as lonely and lost as they have never been.
- There are few real men out there to guide them and let them express their real femininity.
- You can multiply it x10 if they are extremely hot.

Hope it helps to further the discussion.

~POB

Great points here

I think now with a bad economy women are going to focus on methods of making money than actual dating. I feel like dating was over 5 years ago. You’re either single and hooking up or you’re married.

A couple of observations:

1) women aren’t socially acceptable if they have low standards. A woman who rejects all of the simps on her social media is viewed as a very respected woman. Women are all about how they are viewed by others - they will not do anything that makes them look desperate or low status.

2) online dating has given even an average woman access to top tier Chads. This goes back to the original point about high standards. OLD changed everyone’s access. Also the proliferation of matches that fat girls are getting is leading to hypergamy.

3) yes guys are bad at dating, but that’s not the main issue. Dick is cheaper than it’s every been because guys give themselves away too easily. Men have lowered their standards, not raised them. This is where I disagree with OP. I’ve seen decent looking guys going after whales online. Just so they can get their “lay count” up.

at the end of the day it is men’s fault for lowering their own SMV. By pandering to women, paying for online relationships on OnlyFans, and fawning all over women on IG, the value of men is lower than it’s ever been before and women’s value has gone through the roof. Because women view a lot of guys as not worthy of their attention, overall dating has gone down and people are having much less sex than they were 50 years ago.
Note: porn is a factor as well.

 

[ulrich]

Hi @Chase, I think something that is missing from the conversation is the size of the dating pool.

I firmly believe that a big bias in everybody's actions (guys and gals) is that everyone is trying to get the best possible deal out of the dating market ("best" being highly subjective).
Yes, some guys are looking for sex, but 95% of the people out there are looking for companionship.
And you can only have one long-term companion (well, maybe 2 or 3 if you are a master seducer but you guys are outliers).

So, it's kind of a choice effect mixed with perfectionism and a little bit of environmental stress.

You have to choose the best jam from 4 options? EASY!!
You have to choose the best possible jam from 1,991 options? Now things get stressful.

It feels like some kind of 1/n factor and "n" is turning huge.

I think most of these "modern" trends (divorce, ghosting, polyamourous relationships, swingers, open relationships, sexual openness, LGTBQ+) are just people trying to maximize their efforts in looking for the best mate they can get.
So both guys and girls are much less commited to new suitors and much less patient to imperfect ones.
Too many options lead to a more stressful dating experience. You need to maximize your resource efficiency (attention + time).

What do people do when stressed? They raise their standards, ignore unfruitful activities/people and behave more rudely.

On the other hand, I think there's an opposing balancing effect.
While marriage and reproduction is diminisihing, I am willing to bet that the average number of partners/lays per person is going up.
More people are having sex and more often.

More sex, less satisfaction for both sexes, maybe?
So... yeah... the good with the bad, I guess.

 

[POB]

I think now with a bad economy women are going to focus on methods of making money than actual dating. I feel like dating was over 5 years ago. You’re either single and hooking up or you’re married.

Yep, I've noticed that too.
Making money off dudes is at an all time high from online!
This goes both for women themselves and the devs of those apps.

1) women aren’t socially acceptable if they have low standards. A woman who rejects all of the simps on her social media is viewed as a very respected woman. Women are all about how they are viewed by others - they will not do anything that makes them look desperate or low status.

Yes, but those same women are dying to get some quality D (which they prob won't find online Lol.).
Attention only get them satisfied to a certain point...after that they need to feel real cock.

2) online dating has given even an average woman access to top tier Chads.

In looks? Yes. But the real Alphas know how to play the field and do not fall for their traps....at the end of the day, chicks gonna still chase the top dogs who know what they are doing.

3) yes guys are bad at dating, but that’s not the main issue. Dick is cheaper than it’s every been because guys give themselves away too easily. Men have lowered their standards, not raised them. This is where I disagree with OP. I’ve seen decent looking guys going after whales online. Just so they can get their “lay count” up.

Great point! I agree, there are lots of good-looking guys reaching a point where they just wanna get laid fast and with anyone. But again, the whales KNOW they can't get into a real relationship with the high SMV guys. That's why it's all about validation for them.

My point is both the wales and the 10s are unhappy because the pool of available Alphas keeps getting smaller and smaller.
All that's been left for them are scraps.

at the end of the day it is men’s fault for lowering their own SMV. By pandering to women, paying for online relationships on OnlyFans, and fawning all over women on IG, the value of men is lower than it’s ever been before and women’s value has gone through the roof. Because women view a lot of guys as not worthy of their attention, overall dating has gone down and people are having much less sex than they were 50 years ago.
Note: porn is a factor as well.

Yup! Hence my point why the average men is just giving up and almost all single woman is unhappy with the dating scene.

 

[Lover]

Making money off dudes is at an all time high from online!
This goes both for women themselves and the devs of those apps.

I'm glad I'm not the biggest tech geek... I just recently heard about onlyfans, but seems like it has been around for a long time now. Famous girls (and guys apparently) showing off on webcam and some other weird shit as well...

Combined with all those other things you said in your last post, we have moved closer to an all-time low in the mating of humans. I'll be heading outside now for a walk..