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Michael Sartain and Alex Playing with fire different view of seduction

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
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You guys are interpreting this so uncharitably... I literally in the sentence you've quoted said "I know that's not what you're trying to".

My goal was not to be contentious or combative in the slightest, I don't understand the defensiveness. We can agree to disagree, you know?

It is my belief that (you see, this is called a qualifier, not wisdom from bible, just what I think) it's not shameful to go to the gym, build a good life, have good friends, interact socially, get a good job, get good clothes, fix your posture, fix your voice, fix your projection. These should be encouraged, not shunned. I don't see how this is so divisive. This is probably the most cookie cutter thing I've ever written on these forums.

I guess I worded it badly but I think that language also cuts through the heart of the issue.

I fully can accept everything you wrote and I do accept some people aren't interested in these things. My original problem was simply how defensive people were getting to people like Mike whenever they come up. If you can't see how emotional people get about it I don't know what to tell you. Read ANY topic about Dan B or Mike. It quickly becomes a hate-fest.

I was just saying instead of hating we can take things to make us better. I thought that was the whole point of all this. If you don't want to do that, cool, but I don't see how it's harmful to suggest some might. Nothing I've written was dogma and I literally qualified every statement I made with "I think" instead of you literally putting words into my mouth and just straw-manning my argument.
^ yeah i agree with this, i don't get when guys like that come up people get so conspiratorial and against them.... Which is why i did a video defending Dan.... The argument is that their game is not really replicable scalable if copied (i disagree, i personally don't care for their style of game,, but i think it can be replicable if they put the effort), second the belief is it will take shit tons of effort compare to cold approach and therefore not worth it for some... I personally can admire both guys and respect them, i don't personally enjoy that style(cause i don't think they get true sexual raw desire, but that is my take)...... The mistake you made @YS. is that you kind of unintentionally call the guys that are not interested or have field tested or witness that type of game and favor for whatever reason cold approach, losers for doing so (maybe that was not your intention but how it came across) .... I have call out the guys that nitpick dan and mike as posturers (they are stuck in their pick up view of the world anyone with different view they nitpick), the way you worded it was off (again i know it was not your intention).... Finally, 90% of the guys in this forum work on the fundamentals you mentioned such as working out, style, posture, trying to make money etc... I think you are getting a bit confused, when we teach that is not necessarily needed and there are ways to get around it vs, don't pursue does things...i never heard a coach advocating not to pursue those things, most guys in this forum are constantly doing those things you are talking about....
 

Chase

Chieftan
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tribal-elder
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Good thread.

I'm glad it seems like everyone got more or less on the same page.

Noted on your stance, @YS. All good stuff. I think your main issue (WRT setting off guys with the "loser", "north star", etc. comments) is not defining what you're talking about.

Thomas Hobbes devotes something like a chapter to this in Leviathan. Confucius talks about it constantly. When definitions are unclear people end up arguing endlessly and arguing past each other.

Define it clearly first and you avoid most of that.

@Chase exellent article about this:



Chase everything i agree with, but you left out, sexual seekers category of dudes... looking for women sexually open.... but in fairness may be a sub camp

@Skills IME even the most hedonistic pleasure seekers still seem to fall into a category... I have had hedonistic buddies who always went for the plastic chicks with big social media followings (but would take other girls if none of their preferred ones were available), buddies who would go for basically just average-looking easygoing chicks 95% of the time even though they could get hotter girls (one of them would complain about hot girls being "high maintenance"... which was hilarious since most of the time he was only doing ONS... and he could easily get hot girls... he just liked things to be comfortable), buddies who were always on trying to get the girls with careers, etc.

I suppose the thing to ask here is "Imagine your ideal sexually open girl... what is she like?"

She probably fits into either the status, comfort, or genes camp.

Though if you are, say, a comfort guy, you might well pick a sexually open status or genes girl over a sexually closed comfort girl.

Though they will not be your favorites -- just the most convenient compatible girls.

Just like a guy might be a status/comfort/gene guy but have other preferences on top of that: age, race, identity, etc.

e.g., status guy who is really into feminine Latinas and not at all into radical Asian girls might prefer a comfortable feminine Latina over a status-y green-haired Asian chick, even though what really gets him going is sexy feminine status Latinas...

Chase
 

whyumad?

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Dec 22, 2021
Messages
38
I agree with Playing with Fire that cold approach is peasant game. There is a lot to learn from Michael Sartain in regards to social media and status. Something unfortunately most people on the forum won't probably work on.
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
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Messages
5,246
I agree with Playing with Fire that cold approach is peasant game. There is a lot to learn from Michael Sartain in regards to social media and status. Something unfortunately most people on the forum won't probably work on.

dude he is not good at cold approach, as much as he think he is.... Have you seen his infields??
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
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Messages
5,246
Good thread.

I'm glad it seems like everyone got more or less on the same page.

Noted on your stance, @YS. All good stuff. I think your main issue (WRT setting off guys with the "loser", "north star", etc. comments) is not defining what you're talking about.

Thomas Hobbes devotes something like a chapter to this in Leviathan. Confucius talks about it constantly. When definitions are unclear people end up arguing endlessly and arguing past each other.

Define it clearly first and you avoid most of that.



@Skills IME even the most hedonistic pleasure seekers still seem to fall into a category... I have had hedonistic buddies who always went for the plastic chicks with big social media followings (but would take other girls if none of their preferred ones were available), buddies who would go for basically just average-looking easygoing chicks 95% of the time even though they could get hotter girls (one of them would complain about hot girls being "high maintenance"... which was hilarious since most of the time he was only doing ONS... and he could easily get hot girls... he just liked things to be comfortable), buddies who were always on trying to get the girls with careers, etc.

I suppose the thing to ask here is "Imagine your ideal sexually open girl... what is she like?"

She probably fits into either the status, comfort, or genes camp.

Though if you are, say, a comfort guy, you might well pick a sexually open status or genes girl over a sexually closed comfort girl.

Though they will not be your favorites -- just the most convenient compatible girls.

Just like a guy might be a status/comfort/gene guy but have other preferences on top of that: age, race, identity, etc.

e.g., status guy who is really into feminine Latinas and not at all into radical Asian girls might prefer a comfortable feminine Latina over a status-y green-haired Asian chick, even though what really gets him going is sexy feminine status Latinas...

Chase

Yeah i can agree with this (though i had students that only go for kink subculture girls, punisher rip, was like this..., maybe you can edit the article and add some of this, cause you left the sexual aspect for a more complete article, really good work though, i would have never thought of briniging this up like this... I would also nitpict that guys should EXPERIENCE, all the genes, status, confort, and not use this as a COPE, on why they don't go for certain girls...
 

whyumad?

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Dec 22, 2021
Messages
38
My point is his opinion on cold approach should not be taken as bible..
Yeah I don't think he is the best at cold approach, always relying on his dog to get the conversation started. However, one thing is true is that cold approach is not scalable at all. How many approaches you make is how many times a woman (or group) will interact with you. Contrast that with what Michael Sartain is advocating is much more scalable. Using social circle or social media to create a funnel for women to see/interact with you.
 

Chase

Chieftan
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tribal-elder
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6,234
Yeah i can agree with this (though i had students that only go for kink subculture girls, punisher rip, was like this..., maybe you can edit the article and add some of this, cause you left the sexual aspect for a more complete article, really good work though, i would have never thought of briniging this up like this... I would also nitpict that guys should EXPERIENCE, all the genes, status, confort, and not use this as a COPE, on why they don't go for certain girls...

Good suggestion, @Skills. I'll add. edit: updated the last section of the article ("Are There Men Who Don't Fit?").

Agree with your nitpick too. Closed mindedness ("I don't like that kind of girl I have zero experience with") is not a substitute for tastes that come from experience.


However, one thing is true is that cold approach is not scalable at all. How many approaches you make is how many times a woman (or group) will interact with you.

I don't believe you're using that term correctly.

"Scalable" = able to scale up to very high numbers.

For what you're describing, you want something more like "cold approach does not lend itself to repeated exposures to a specific woman over time."

The two are very different skill sets...

  1. Social circle revolving around making slower impressions over multiple exposures
  2. Cold approach revolving around making rapid impressions without the benefit of repeated exposure

Cold approach is tougher, at least initially, due to how front-loaded the impression-making is. With social circle you can get away with a flimsy first impression if you "get better over time."

For scalability though, just in terms of raw ability to scale one's numbers up as much as one desires, you have to give it to cold approach.

If you want to go out on the street during the day and approach women until you pick up, pull her, lay her, relax a few hours, then head back out to nightlife and approach again until you pull again, you can do that, any day of the week, with a number of approaches limited only by the number of available women in public in your area and your ability to approach and rapidly make an impression and take it somewhere if it clicks.

Social circle has a lot more limitations on its scalability, even at the upper echelons. Gatherings are only certain times of the week, for certain hours... there is a limit to the dating pool there... you see a lot of the same girls again and again... turnover is generally going to be low.

There are ways to engineer a much more scaled up social circle-ish lifestyle (like being a DJ who DJs five nights a week at a very popular nightclub and has big after-parties at each session), but at that point you are in a lot more of a gray area between social circle and cold approach due to how high the turnover is and how often you will be shagging chicks you've only just met who don't know much about you aside from whatever status signals they've picked up about you plus however good your game + fundamentals are. A "flimsy impression" DJ will do a lot worse in that situation than he will in a tighter, less frequently meeting circle where he gets exposed to the same women repeatedly, due to the more cold-approach-like aspects of the high volume, high turnover scenario where women don't know him nearly as well.

(one caveat: it's also possible you are in an area with a low volume of women in public... I have had coaching clients like that, especially during the lockdowns, where my advice was to stop trying to cold approach and instead focus on throwing parties... when your ability to approach in public is severely curtailed, social circle can actually become more scalable)

Contrast that with what Michael Sartain is advocating is much more scalable. Using social circle or social media to create a funnel for women to see/interact with you.

Again, status-based social circle is very powerful, but it has a number of limitations.

There is a reason why the most prolific status-based social circle guys also cold approached... Russell Brand cold approached, and he is at 1,000 lays... Errol Flynn did parties and used his social circle to get laid all the time, but he also cold approached incessantly, and he claimed 14,000 lays.

Sure, these guys had fame, making cold approach easier, but I have seen street recordings of Jeff Goldblum cold approaching, doing day game and most of the girls he approached did not know who he was... this was at the peak of his fame, too. Recognizing a guy on the screen is very different from recognizing him in-person without the lights and makeup and other peripherals.

It's a bit silly trying to claim one of these is better than the other.

They are different tools fitted to different situations.

It's like arguing the merits of claw hammers vs. mallets.

A skilled craftsman may have his preferences. One or the other may be better for the kind of crafts he's engaged in.

But both continue to exist as tools employed by the craftsmen who use them for a reason.

Chase
 
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Don Giovanni

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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287
There are ways to engineer a much more scaled up social circle-ish lifestyle (like being a DJ who DJs five nights a week at a very popular nightclub and has big after-parties at each session), but at that point you are in a lot more of a gray area between social circle and cold approach due to how high the turnover is and how often you will be shagging chicks you've only just met who don't know much about you aside from whatever status signals they've picked up about you plus however good your game + fundamentals are.
This is exactly what I was talking about and what I’m planning to do. It’s half because I’m curious what can be done, half out of necessicity.

I’ll be living again in a city of 300.000. One year ago when I was living there and every single girl I cold approached (in a club or on a bus, everywhere) we later in the conversation found some common friends or aquaintances. Building yourself a reputiation is inevitable. Went good in some circles, bad in others but this time I’m going to do it on my own terms.

Then move to a bigger city when I get my finances in order…I love the anonimity living here in Budapest.
 

Searcher

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Dec 24, 2021
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226
Would a status guy really want to accept that he is a status guy?
Also I think most guys will say that they are gene guys.

Because accepting that one is a status guy makes a person look like he cares a lot about hierarchy/status and remaining at the top, which is not a good look in society.

I think everyone has elements of status, comfort and genes in selecting their partners.
And if selecting for a long term relationship the girl must cross a certain threshold in each status, comfort and gene and then it is based on the person as to how much importance he gives to each.
 
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