Models - Mark Manson?

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Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Hey everyone,

I've always been curious what this community thinks about Mark Manson's book on dating.

Basically the book hammers the idea of "vulnerability", being honest and true to intentions in lifestyle (career, passions), actions (ex. approaching girl you like), and communication (ex. being direct in expression thoughts, opinions, etc.).

I found it healthy amidst all the "red pill" and gamey material out there. It doesn't make you stew in resentment of women. Nor does it give you instructions like "say these 3 things, step at a 45 degree, smile for half second..."

It does take a lot from No More Mr. Nice Guy to me. Where he mentions to assert your boundaries. Basically don't be a doormat (simp) but also not an overcompensating douche (narcissist).

The flaw I see, is that he doesn't delve into social nuances like Chase does. Mark's approach is relatively high-level with some tactics thrown in there.

He also doesn't really lay out a comprehensive action plan. Though he says it is by design. He wants to let the reader determine their values. He gives the reader tools to develop the action plan though.

I also wonder if his material suffers by going mainstream. I'm guessing he went mainstream to impact a larger audience, sure. But I can't see him saying something true that would get him "canceled".

What are y'all's thoughts on this book?
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Yes that is the book i recommend for most guys as "inner game" i always say to kind of ignore the vulnerability part, but what he means is by that is being more blunt and polirizing... most guys will take it as talking about their inner fears and openesss which dries vaginas, so that is why i say be careful with that part, other wise a solid book for inner game...He was influenced by no more mr. nice guys a lot.... (is recommended reading there)
 
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Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Good to hear! I do see how vulnerability could be misunderstood like that. I recall him saying how the goal is not emotional vomit at girls. Rather bluntness like you mentioned exercised with discretion.
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Good to hear! I do see how vulnerability could be misunderstood like that. I recall him saying how the goal is not emotional vomit at girls. Rather bluntness like you mentioned exercised with discretion.


Exactly! also the technical outer game, meh! But his outer game is like the direct gamers used to do such as "gll" that does not work as effective as the tech used by other guys in the community such as second generation guys now a days...
 

pinpin

Space Monkey
space monkey
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Decent book.
Whether you use GLL verbals or '2nd gen' verbals, the result will basically be the same. It depends on whether she is attracted to you or not. You really tend to need very very little 'outer game' if she is attracted. I see guys fucking it up left right and centre and still getting the lay because she likes him.
And if she's not attracted, then you never stood a shot. Even with 8th generation verbals ;)
Best not to overthink it, as Mark Manson says (he used to use all the mysterymethod stuff himself btw, but ended up rejecting it and went more 'free style' dropping all the concepts. Bit like Tyler from RSD)
 
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Train

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Thanks for the input, that makes sense. I imagine you still have to hit the "essentials" like connecting, flirting, and leading regardless of verbals.

I do see how switching between direct and indirect can help you adapt to the environment though. Ex. indirect for professional networking events but direct for the street.
 

Chrance

Cro-Magnon Man
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Decent book.
Whether you use GLL verbals or '2nd gen' verbals, the result will basically be the same. It depends on whether she is attracted to you or not. You really tend to need very very little 'outer game' if she is attracted. I see guys fucking it up left right and centre and still getting the lay because she likes him.
And if she's not attracted, then you never stood a shot. Even with 8th generation verbals ;)
Best not to overthink it, as Mark Manson says (he used to use all the mysterymethod stuff himself btw, but ended up rejecting it and went more 'free style' dropping all the concepts. Bit like Tyler from RSD)

You can make yourself more or less attractive by behaving differently. If behavior were not a factor in attractiveness than you could 100% determine a mans attractiveness by a photo of him; also, if behavior were not a factor than it would not be possible to make yourself less attractive through bad behavior - this literally means if you acted like a little bratty girl than you would remain as attractive as before. This defies common sense, since we all know that certsin behavior is repulsive to women. Hence behavior is an undeniable factor, so “it depends on if she’s attracted or not” is not a static statement; so there should be concern and thinking by the player in order to alter his behavior (which includes the things he says) to appear more attractive. If a man overwhelms himself with thoughts and concepts (overthinking), than that’s a separate issue that has nothing to do with the validity of the concepts themselves.
 

YS.

Modern Human
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That book is the biggest reason (along with the Blueprint) why I think I got good results so fast but its best trait is also its worst. It's very limited. Incredible inner game book. The greatest book about rejections also. Just a 10/10 for what it is but it is no bible.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
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Models has some useful advice.

However this Manson guy is a cuck who is trying to appeal to a broader audience by shittalking PU and making variously politically correct statements. And mixing in some really bad "vulnerability" advice.

This kind of "purple pill" advice is just made to appeal to chodes and get social acceptance. It is easier to swallow a mix of harsh realities and comforting delusions than to confront reality head on and root out all your bad habits. I consider this a form of scam marketing which regretfully has become rather common.

There are better ways to deal with the shortcomings of PU and they are discussed frequently on this site.

Also his wife is rather plain, which says quite a lot if you are a famous seducer with a bit of business.

Does this guy look like an "alpha male" (be sure to click the link)?

 
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Glow

Tribal Elder
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That book is the biggest reason (along with the Blueprint) why I think I got good results so fast but its best trait is also its worst. It's very limited. Incredible inner game book. The greatest book about rejections also. Just a 10/10 for what it is but it is no bible.
Sounds surprising to me. Im more like @Carousel on this matter

could you be specific to the direct pointers or insights you gained from it? Im curious...
 
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Train

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Interesting to hear these takes. I always heard good praise for his material. So hearing the potential pitfalls and flaws helps with taking a more objective look at the material. And not touting it like THE bible on dating.

Makes sense that going mainstream, you have to blunt your edge. Make it more appealing to everyone.
 

YS.

Modern Human
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Sounds surprising to me. Im more like @Carousel on this matter

could you be specific to the direct pointers or insights you gained from it? Im curious...

Sure.

I've read it in 15', so my memory might be hazy, but...

My biggest takeaways:
  • The 0 to 1 number system instead of 0 to 10 is one of the biggest factors I got laid with stunners when I was beginning. I didn't see them as such.
  • It was the only book in PU existence that has a very extensive rejection section WITH MENTAL FRAMES about it. The difference between a newbie and an expert being 1% and 10%. It was an eye opener. People get rejected and PU is much more of a treasure hunt than a manipulative process.
  • Incredible fun frames and letting go of the outcome. His getting slapped story and really vulnerable anecdotes were a blessing in the sea of theory oriented world of PU.
  • His chapters on "your story" and "the gift" was great for me to cope with my past and reframe "my story".
  • The concept of vulnerability was HUGE. It made me make insane connections to women and made them open up. I didn't even realize what it was doing until I moved away from the MM modal and became more of an attraction guy, I started to get an incredible flake rate.
  • The fact that he put such emphasis on you had to shed your ego and your lack of vulnerability and the framing of it was incredible. It was an insanely pure frame of practicing PU along with the treasure hunt frame. It was very integrated to society and functioning within it. Very little "pickup cape" required. It really made me internalize that action itself was value. Expressing myself was value itself. It was just purely fucking incredible mentally. Especially coming from a very protection/fear/inaction/ego oriented space.
  • The concept of polarization and everything naturally polarizes (to the negative, in the absence of action) was the single biggest sticking point of mine (inaction and fear of negative reactions) and it singlehandedly made me get my first girl. I just did something. :)
  • The MINIMAL theory was a godsend. It made me get core confidence instead of having a confidence in theory. (This is really funny since I'm trying to learn very structured indirect game now. Haha.) And the limited theory it had was incredible. Push-Pull, Statements instead of questions, word association (Hooks & Threads Theories of old PU). Having a viewpoint in life/being interesting, etc.
  • The concept of demographics was insane. I never really thought about that before. After I switched up my demo, I got really good results. Then my results crashed when I returned to my old demo. I would've tried to "fix my game" instead of seeing the problem w/o Mark Manson.
  • The concept of having a life. I joined a salsa class, art class, etc. Started going to social gatherings. My first 2 girls were from the Salsa class and a birthday of a friend.
  • The book wasn't bitter or red pill at all. It was a very loving and integrated type of book. Outframed many PU concepts. For better and worse.

Again... The book was pretty limited, you can definitely transcend a lot of the ideas there but it was incredible for what it was.
 
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flatron

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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People get rejected and PU is much more of a treasure hunt than a manipulative process.
Nice quote. I think most 'seducers' give themselves way way too much credit tbh. It most definitely is a 'treasure hunt'.
 
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YS.

Modern Human
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Nice quote. I think most 'seducers' give themselves way way too much credit tbh. It most definitely is a 'treasure hunt'.
I think, being an effective treasure hunter is a very elite skill. You truly create your own luck.

Honestly I run interactions pretty well but I suck at starting them in my current logistical situation. I plan on writing a very long article about this. But the skillset of approaching, screening, state control, maintaining mental clarity, having access to the people you want, navigating the social space well and fearlessly are VERY unique and elite traits. Running the interaction itself well is a rather small part of the overall PU skillset, in my humble opinion. (Not to mention the shit post PU; frame control, MLTR, maintaining harems, leveraging time/money/social media, etc.)
 
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Tony D

Tribal Elder
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I like Mark's various blogs, but I've never been able to finish his books. They're fine, but just middle of the road, simple, and don't challenge me intellectually. If I'd never read anything about pickup it might be useful, but I found Models when I was many years into this stuff and it just didn't excite me in any way. Newbies worship him over on reddit.com/r/seduction, as if he's the only guy to ever write a pickup book. He is a very good Internet Marketer, and a good enough writer.
 

Glow

Tribal Elder
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Messages
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Sure.

I've read it in 15', so my memory might be hazy, but...

My biggest takeaways:
  • The 0 to 1 number system instead of 0 to 10 is one of the biggest factors I got laid with stunners when I was beginning. I didn't see them as such.
  • It was the only book in PU existence that has a very extensive rejection section WITH MENTAL FRAMES about it. The difference between a newbie and an expert being 1% and 10%. It was an eye opener. People get rejected and PU is much more of a treasure hunt than a manipulative process.
  • Incredible fun frames and letting go of the outcome. His getting slapped story and really vulnerable anecdotes were a blessing in the sea of theory oriented world of PU.
  • His chapters on "your story" and "the gift" was great for me to cope with my past and reframe "my story".
  • The concept of vulnerability was HUGE. It made me make insane connections to women and made them open up. I didn't even realize what it was doing until I moved away from the MM modal and became more of an attraction guy, I started to get an incredible flake rate.
  • The fact that he put such emphasis on you had to shed your ego and your lack of vulnerability and the framing of it was incredible. It was an insanely pure frame of practicing PU along with the treasure hunt frame. It was very integrated to society and functioning within it. Very little "pickup cape" required. It really made me internalize that action itself was value. Expressing myself was value itself. It was just purely fucking incredible mentally. Especially coming from a very protection/fear/inaction/ego oriented space.
  • The concept of polarization and everything naturally polarizes (to the negative, in the absence of action) was the single biggest sticking point of mine (inaction and fear of negative reactions) and it singlehandedly made me get my first girl. I just did something. :)
  • The MINIMAL theory was a godsend. It made me get core confidence instead of having a confidence in theory. (This is really funny since I'm trying to learn very structured indirect game now. Haha.) And the limited theory it had was incredible. Push-Pull, Statements instead of questions, word association (Hooks & Threads Theories of old PU). Having a viewpoint in life/being interesting, etc.
  • The concept of demographics was insane. I never really thought about that before. After I switched up my demo, I got really good results. Then my results crashed when I returned to my old demo. I would've tried to "fix my game" instead of seeing the problem w/o Mark Manson.
  • The concept of having a life. I joined a salsa class, art class, etc. Started going to social gatherings. My first 2 girls were from the Salsa class and a birthday of a friend.
  • The book wasn't bitter or red pill at all. It was a very loving and integrated type of book. Outframed many PU concepts. For better and worse.

Again... The book was pretty limited, you can definitely transcend a lot of the ideas there but it was incredible for what it was.

Nice man - thanks for this solid outline. I really like how you are specific and engage in good discussions in here.

Sound like a great mental release you describe with quite a few key mindset changes on the tactical level eg demos.
Perfect for eg. an early intermediary caught in scared cat mode - to open up horisons. And maybe could add a bit to various things for some. Demo is actually a solid point i would agree. Sleazy, Razorjack, and i think gun and others have written on this too. prob a post worth in itself to discuss how to consciously use.

But also sounds like a lot of lesser wrongs - hes referring to the large PU community i think. eg the People get rejected and PU is much more of a treasure hunt than a manipulative process. two wrongs and dumm to compare as they are not counter disclosive. but it helps the beginner or intermediary accept rejections and mobilise a better attitude to adapt this simpler perspective. That said flawless tim and sixty both provides stronger perspectives on rejection - use it for intentfulness, get rejection out of the way fast, harnessing the energy of it. And were several who would say one is ignorant if they dont see manipulative impact in pu. I personally call it influence.

but good stuff, good stuff.
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
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Models has some useful advice.

However this Manson guy is a cuck who is trying to appeal to a broader audience by shittalking PU and making variously politically correct statements. And mixing in some really bad "vulnerability" advice.

This kind of "purple pill" advice is just made to appeal to chodes and get social acceptance. It is easier to swallow a mix of harsh realities and comforting delusions than to confront reality head on and root out all your bad habits. I consider this a form of scam marketing which regretfully has become rather common.

There are better ways to deal with the shortcomings of PU and they are discussed frequently on this site.

Also his wife is rather plain, which says quite a lot if you are a famous seducer with a bit of business.

Does this guy look like an "alpha male" (be sure to click the link)?



You are attacking the person, not the content, i will repeat once again what i have been saying on years on pick up forums...

Is the advise good? does it help you?

anything else is noise and irrelevant... and we are talking about the context of the book "models" not mark manson blog, or anything else
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Interesting to hear these takes. I always heard good praise for his material. So hearing the potential pitfalls and flaws helps with taking a more objective look at the material. And not touting it like THE bible on dating.

Makes sense that going mainstream, you have to blunt your edge. Make it more appealing to everyone.

Also it was written in a different social dynamics era, things have changed a lot.... But again as "inner game" is the best out there so far.
 

Carousel

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
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Messages
576
You are attacking the person, not the content, i will repeat once again what i have been saying on years on pick up forums...

Is the advise good? does it help you?

anything else is noise and irrelevant... and we are talking about the context of the book "models" not mark manson blog, or anything else

Some of the advice is good (for example the part about polarization), some of it is shit (the vulnerability part). I thought that was clear from what I have written.

Also I judge the quality of advice from what this person achieves and how he comes off.
 
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