Ocantu Journal

[ocantu1987]

Went to college last night, wore a nice polo shirt and had a fresh haircut. Walked around campus and saw a girl taking pictures of the ducks that inhabit the campus. I approached her:

Me: Hey Im just curious, what you doing there? (I used a serious tone)
Her: *surprised* oh just taking pictures for photography class
Me: okay, by the way I like your tattoos, where did you get them?
Her: Galveston tattoo shop
Me: what are you majoring in?
Her: *she had her guard up* blah blah, doing homework
Me: oh yeah this college just loves to hand out homework lol *she smiled,but she had her guard up*
Me: well take it easy.

This girl was not really attractive, but I had to practice lol. Next time I need to use humor on the opener, it brings the shield down. I think she probably thought I worked at the college as an authority figure or something. I didnt smile much, I used a serious tone, eye contact was okay,first approach of the day.

I walked around more and saw a somewhat cute thick chick, I looked her in the eyes and smiled, but she didnt look back at me at all lol.

Saw a cute indian chick as my class was starting, I said hi,but she ignored me lol.

My mom works at my college and told me something that opened my eyes, she said my saliva is drooling from my mouth! aka desperate! Shes right, I havent watched watched porn in ten days and Im horny. I decided I had to reset last night haha nofap can make you needy, girls probably sensed it from me last night.

 

[ocantu1987]

did an approach last night at my gym class. Im trying to troubleshoot my flaws as much as I can and realize going plain situational aka indirect with a playful vibe/smile works great for me. Approaching women all serious seems to put their guard up, use a little humor to bring the shield down.

I got to class and I had to start a cardio session as part of my classwork. Had a semi tight shirt that showed my muscularity on top that I also pumped iron before classs, I had a great pump. Got on a stationary bike right next to a young 18 year old girl, didnt talk to her, dont know why. Maybe because she is young haha Im 27.

I finished my workout and walked around to see some good sized boobies on the treadmill, I was like dammmmnnn lol. I had to approach this girl. She finished her workout and started stretching, I went indirect with humorous smile. i dont remember the whole conversation lol, do my best.

Me: you tired yet
Her: yes blah blah
Me: yeah Ive always been into weights, cardio though is new to me lol
Her: I used to work out alot
Me: oh yeah how long has it been?
Her: 10 years
Me: whaaa? you dont look that old lol
Her: 31 here haha
Me: I would have said 26
Her: oh well thank you
Me: *we talked about her nursing, wich led to blood pressure talk* Im 27 and I have high blood pressure haha
Her: oh yeah haha
Me:*I mentioned work*
Her: where do you work at?
Me: Texas new mexico power, you know them?
Her: yeah, I used to live in texas city
Me: oh cool, yeah they are the people that cut your lights off if u dont pay lol
Her: lol
Her: what was your name?
Me: Im Oscar, whats yours? *I shake her hand*
Her: J
Me: J, thats italian?
Her: lol no french. I got some spanish in my family
Me: oy yeah do you speak spanish
Her: oh no, not me lol

cant remember the rest of the convo after that.


after that some people playing basketball interrupted us and I said "well see you in class" she didnt say anything lol.
She sits in front of me and she showed up to class, she grew cold on me. She didnt turn around to talk or anything, she didnt say bye when she left hmmm, I guess I could have talk to her in class, but I wanted her to give me more signals, but she didnt lol.

I though the interaction went well, my eye contact was good, she wasnt giving me eye contact back though lol. she was asking me questions and she introduced herself to me. I keep thinking I may have said something wrong, maybe the age thing, or looking at her with my sexual eyes when she may have a boyfriend perhaps I didnt ask her haha.

Ill talk to her again, but in the meantime I got to keep approaching more women. Dont know what I did wrong here with this girl.

 

[ocantu1987]

started feeling blue last night. It feels Im getting nowhere with women. Ive been a ghost to them lately and it is pissing me off. Still got to keep approaching, but lately has been cold. My coworker who is 50 years old is getting laid (he has a social circle) and me (27) no girl likes me erghhh

Cant give up

 

[ocantu1987]

man im mood swingy the other day I feel like shit then I have a good workout and realize that I can cry about not getting women all i want, but nothing will happen with them if I dont take action.

I decided I got to do something and I will continue to approach. Im learning from mistakes as much as I can, like I know now to keep PUA life in the dark from people(who dont study pick-up) will definitely be better for me. Get my diet and training in check, doing Mike Mathews 5 day workout http://www.amazon.com/Bigger-Leaner-Str ... r+stronger I highly recommend this book to anyone wanting to get in shape.

Another thing I got to add in is nofap, every time Im on a long streak of nofap, sooner or later I find a date. It certainty helps you approach more too, but I feel like women are more attracted to me when on nofap. Like the last 30 day streak I had I was at the mechanic and this girl was there, I was undressing her with my eyes and she looked at me with a DIHL and I smiled and waved wtf of course this never happens to me haha she kept looking at me and giggling at me so I waived a goodbye to her and she instantly waived back with smile. I was also poorly dresses with a ball cap on. I think she felt my sexual energy and she loved it. I cant believe I didnt approach her lol.

 

[ocantu1987]

was at the gym and I saw a young,cute, petite white girl with a nice ass. I feel AA again so i decided I would go for a compliment then eject so I get warmed up for some bar approaches later tonight.

I said fuck it, she was at the lat pulldown. I went up and made eye contact then smiled and she smiled back (awesome! I got to do this more often, i sometimes dont smile on the approach) "excuse me, just wanted to tell you that your pretty" "thank you" "thats all I wanted to say" I left to finish my sets. I wasnt too nervous at all, once I said something to her I felt good. I could probably done more. She did quickly move back to her sets once I complimented her like "okay thank you,go away" or maybe she was shy, she definately looked the shy type. She had braces too thought that was cute.

Went to 2 bars and didnt see any singles,mostly couples. I just drank a beer and left. I made it my goal to bed at least one girl from a bar within the next three months, never brought home a girl from a bar before. I know I got to be patient and learn from my mistakes,refine my game. Last time I tried taking a girl home from a dance club (she was all over me!), her friend was cockblocking the shit out of me and the girl listened and just disappeared lol

 

[ocantu1987]

ok just got back from dance class at a country dance hall and a few other bars, nothing interesting. I danced in class (two-step) I was so terrible haha. Some people were avoiding to dance with me as well, I think because I am hispanic and got gangland tattoos on my forearms Im still trying to get laserd. Wore a sleeveless blue button shirt. Didnt see much girls im interested (caucasians) in besided a thick voluptuous waitress(latina) who gave me a smile and I smiled back at her. I didnt approach her will next time

hopped to other bars and there was no prospects, I went to another dance bar and saw two latinas dancing together by themselves. It was disco music playing and it was freaking loud erghhh I kept thinking dude I cant dance tot this music, and if I approach then they cant hear shit. I should have tried though, one of the latinas walked by me and smiled.

went to another regular bar and sat like a stiff, there were 3 girls sitting together and I was thinking of approaching, but I think they had boyfriends playing darts.

Didnt accomplish much tonight, i wanted to get in my head again, but i have convinced myself that this will take time, learn from my mistakes, ask questions. I want to pull a hottie from a bar soon.

truthfully im leaning towards daygame, no loud music,girls can hear what you say and you are different from other guys cause other guys dont approach in the daytime haha but still ill keep trying nightgame, just need to be patient. Daygame tomorrow.

 

[ocantu1987]

Went to the gym and I saw two young girls not having a clue what to do haha I felt AA, but I situationaly approached. I didnt smile *facepalm* and said "excuse me, do you ladies need help?" the girl told me to remove the barbell like I was her slave hmmm okay. I was nervous and they saw it on me, but I did the best I could. I asked them if there are new to lifting, and one of them works out. They seemed not welcoming my company too much(they dont smile ether) so I said okay, im oscar by the way "Im kristen, this is Mia" "okay let me know if you need any more help" I went back to my bench. My muscles were pumped and I think one of the girls liked it haha

as I was finishing my bench, one the girls (kristen) re-engaged me, and asked me if I eat healthy (perhaps because I look good hmmm) I said I definately do, jack in the box whata burger pizza the whole shebang (joking) she didnt laugh lol okay. Kristen asked me more fitness questions, and she told me she wants to be fit in her prom dress and have a nice butt (shit, jailbait!) She might have been 18, didnt ask haha im 27. Dang she had a rack on her, didnt notice right away, but she bent down omg cleavage!

I had to leave and i waived at them then left. Overall im proud for at least trying, I was nervous, but it did get me loose. I got to smile more, they were serious girls, they didnt smile or laugh at my jokes. I get stronger the more I approach, I keep thinking rome wasnt built in a day baby steps oscar, i made progress

Went to school and this girl in my class is fucking weird, we had a great conversation and she introduced herself to me on the first day of class. Then she started blowing me off afterward. She ignored me again today and I said hi anyway, she was somewhat friendly, but short in conversation. I complimented her on her ring and that didnt do much. It does bug me how this girl changed on me, she talks to another male student all cool, but she blows me off haha I got to think abundance. Remember oscar when Viri flat out rejected you with a disgusted look on her face, next day I had a date with a latina from dance class who I ended up taking home and made out with her. ABUNDANCE MENTALITY!!!!

 

[ocantu1987]

Went to school after my workout. I walked around and saw a cute white girl at the library, short-shorts! I was going to approach, but there was a girl near her and I got in my head that she will laugh at me for approaching the white girl erghhh wrong mindset. I have been laughed at for approaching, but I shouldnt give a fuck.

Went back outside and saw a beautiful professional looking asian-women @28-30 years old. She was way ahead of me and I had to run a little bit after her.
Me:excuse me, hi im not crazy or nothin , but I thought you were cute and had to say hi (I actually smiled at her and she returned my smile)
Her: oh wow, thank you lol
Me: yeah I know its random. you were moving fast I had to run after you haha im not a creep either
Her: lol
Me:I see you got a ring on(married), well I will let you go, I hope i at least made your day. I like to give compliments.
Her: you did make my day
Me: okay, well take it easy.

Well I know what i did wrong here. I kept making excuses about my approach haha I did do two things right. #1 I approached! #2 I smiled during my first sentence wich I didnt do yesterday. I been working on smiling more to women that meet my eye contact, i actually smiled at a few teachers in the hallways before i met this girl. This girls face lit up when I smiled at her, felt her shield go down a little bit

I wasnt that nervous, but my eye contact could of been better, I also was talking a little bit fast, this is another issue ive had. overall im slowly getting better at this. I want to cold approach a girl, build attraction, number close in the near future!

 

[ocantu1987]

At the gym yesterday and talked to a girl, she wasnt smoking hot, but she was cute...I walked into a the kickboxing area of the gym wich is closed off, nobody around just this girl. She squats and deadlift with great form and I have seen her around a few times. She was in the middle of stretching.

Me: not deadlifting today haha?
Her: no working shoulders haha
Me: i got to say you definitely have great form, deadlifts screwed up my low back. Where did you learn such proper technique?
Her: I just learned from videos
Me: oh okay youtube?
Her: yeah
Me: you always make sure your chest is up ?
Her: yeah, i also had lower back issue as well
Me: okay youve seen a physical therapist?
Her: no, healed on its own
Me: you squat too huh?
Her: yeah but i broke my left foot so I had to backtrack
Me: what was your best record?
Her: 155
Mekay anyway im Oscar
Her: erica
Me: nice to meet you erica, i just wanted to say hi
Her: Okay lol

Conversation felt like an interview, but she was smiling and keeping eye contact with me. She was friendly. I was much more calm in this approach, I wasnt talking too fast, my eye contact was good, and I was smiling. She wasnt asking me questions or investing, but I see I could have used more humor and more statements. I did okay but got to make conversations be non-interview haha.

Curious to see if this girl blows me off the next time I see her. Ive had this happen to me multiple times in places where I see the girl again (gym,school), I approach a girl, have good conversation, I have sexy eye contact with her, I have a sexy smile and she returns it, i dont ask her out and the next time I see her, she blows me off hmmm I may need to ask the forum for help on this if it happens again...

 

[ocantu1987]

Saw a two girls getting in their car at Jc penny parking lot, i decided i was going to warm up since I have nightgme later on.

Me: Excuse me, hey, just wanted to say ya'll are both pretty (i smiled)
Her: Thank you! (big smile on her face)
Me: anyway, that is all i wanted to say. Im not crazy lol
Her: lol

I heard them laughing about me, but it was a warm up. Its amazing how doing random compliments on girls shoots your confidence for a real approach.
johnny berba taught me this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBvGkT2 ... A&index=22

I was feeling great after jc penny girl so i approached a girl at the gym later on and it was okay, i was not nervous and my eye contact was good. I had the girl smiling at first but then she got cold and then I left, she was on the stairmaster haha I am getting stronger, im able to approach with ease now, took a few weeks.

Went out last night to some bars and dance clubs, my female coworker is getting me in the mentality that i have to learn to dance in order to get good with women haha no, it helps and is another way but I like the "approach" better and i feel its easier than fucking dancing haha i suck at it.

so i checked out the dance halls and it was loud, i cant dance dance and just said screw this i left lol.

went to some regular bars. Fist bar bar i did okay,second bar nothing. there were two big-boobed latinas sitting together, i waited a while for there boyfriends to show and they had nobody, haha approach time!

It was loud and i used an opener that worked for me a while back.
Me: excuse me are ya'll friendly? (sarcastic smile)
Her: lol why yes were friendly
Me: ok good i havent seen anyone come over here so i thought maybe ill take my chances haha im Oscar
Them: Amanda and forgot this other girls name haha

long story short, this approach didnt go great at all, i said a bunch of stupid shit, but I ended up taking a shot with them and grabbed Amandas number for a coffee date haha unlikely (she actually responded to my messages afterwards lol). Examples.

Me: how old are you?
Her:24
Me: ohhhh hmmm (i was thinking of making a joke about her age, but i went blank)
Her: ummm why did you make that face about my age?

Me: ladies i dont know what else to say, i ran out

Them: you did approach us we give you credit,but your really nervous haha (ouch lol)

Me:lets do some shots i got leave in a lil bit ($20 bucks yikes! didnt want to buy drinks)

Her: i try to not drink too much when talking to girls cause they dont like a super drunk guy (tmi!)

Amanda was asking me alot of questions and I was trying to make more statements slash humor

She asked me how many kids my brother had and i said he was a busy boy haha 5 kids perhaps added sexual content to the conversation? haha idk

I was touching amanda on her arm and she didnt care at all actually, small quick touches. I go a few smiles from her and good eye contact. I just coulndnt build a connection with her.

At the end i said well i got to go, they were being really quiet and amanda was swiping her hands together like maybe she wanted me to leave haha

I told amanda so how did i do tonight? wtf erghhh
her: you did okay
Me: so can I invite you for a coffee sometime?
Her: sure.
Me: cool,*hand her my phone,put her name and everything*
Me: nice meeting you.

overall i got the number wich is something (she responded to my icebreaker text), but dont think its going anywhere haha Amanda was a fucking hot latina with some DD tits showing some cleavage mmmm my god i would bang the shit out of her lol. Richard would take her from me

I at least tried though, this approach sucked ass, but i can learn from it. I never built a connection with either girl, it was very interviewy with some great moments.

Will try again tonight at another bar



Aman

 

[ocantu1987]

I went to the clothing store and saw a cute black girl with some big boobs. I said i wanted to try something new, going super direct and asking her out like narrow j did one of his approaches.

As i was heading to the register i smiled at her and she gave me a cute smile. i asked her for her name (bunny) and where she from, i wasnt in a social mood, so i just went for it.

Me: hey bunny, i think your cute and i want to ask you for some coffee
Her: lol oh wow hahaha (got her by surprise)
Her: im sorry im in a relationship
me: oh no haha is he bigger than me?
Her: lol yep!
Me: ouch lol
her: are you really single?
Me: yeah
Her: wow (maybe she thought i was cute)

i finished buying my clothes.

Her: ok well bye! and thank you! (i made her day)
me: ok you have a good day

not nervous much, and i am surprised at my boldness.

 

[ocantu1987]

This is my true test here.

Went out dancing last night dance I saw a young girl with some big boobies, i approached and invited her to dance. She was close to me and rubbing her breast on my chest. She didnt no how to dance either just like me, but we danced twice.

After we danced the second time I invited her for a shot and she said okay, then she said im going for some water and she left me standing at the bar by myself

I brought her the shots and she didnt know how to take them lol i showed her and then she turned away and I asked her to dance again..."no, im tired right now"

haha her body language flipped on me to cold. I got to accept that rejection is part of the game.

Got to keep going, this rejection stung me a lil bit, in the past i would quit approaching afterword but not this time.

mistake i think i made was leading, this girl was really young, i think 18 since she wasnt drinking anything but water, she didnt even know how to take a shot properly haha i could have lead her outside to talk more about her

I bought this girl shots for nothing

I should of danced with more girls, but didnt find any, I only danced with her

when she got to the bar with me i could have told her to wait a second instead of allowing her leaving. I was going to get her number,but her body language grew cold on me and i bought her a shot wtf

another think was as she was all on me on the dance floor, i got a boner lol she was voluptuous rubbing breast on me, haha thank nofap for that. Dont know if she felt it.

I felt blue waking up this morning, but i got to keep going, this the the true test of game. I have been getting non harsh rejections from daygame, but this one hit the spot with me. Keep going oscar!

 

[ocantu1987]

I want to write down my list of the things I need to work on.

Repartee
deep dive
not running out of things to say
Sex frames
chase frames
Clothing

i want to set goals with this stuff, im also going to try to go out to my local mall and just approach. My fashion still sucks at the moment, but I got to keep my momentum.

 

[ocantu1987]

Went to the mall and walmart yesterday since i had a little free time before school started. Made 4 approaches, with one number close.

Was walking through the mall, i had just got there and I saw a cute 19 year old latina (Richard where u at lol) she was a hired gun, but i said fuck it. she was texting somebody.

Me:excuse me, did you get my text? (i think i was smiling, maybe not though) got this from johnny berba
Her: huh whaa? (confused look on her face)
Me: just joking
Her: oh LMAO

went better than i thought, she was asking me questions. i made her laugh a little. smiling. I complimented her earings.
I asked her out for coffee @ 3 or 4 minutes into the conversation. I think it might have been too early,but she agreed instantly and told me to text her so she can have my phone

we talked a little bit more and I asked her when are you getting off? at 9, but Im going to the gym though! lol she said that like she wasnt interested in going out with me after work hmmm mixed signals.

Texted her with my icebreaker text, "hey priscilla nice talking to you, save my number Oscar" about 30 minutes later and guess what? no response lol i know that women who dont reply to an icebreaker usually dont pan out, but ill try to set something up anyway. never know unless you try.

approached a cute white girl in a clothing store direct, she was smiling and she was moving away, I told her come here, let me talk to you and she comlied lol but some store clerk was getting her some clothing. So i just bounced.

I approached a beautiful italian girl, man she was eye fucking me after I approached. The problem was she was 17 lol yikes, asked her out anyway and she said she has no phone, and is going back to italy in a week lol bs. We were talking good, she gave me a kiss on the cheek and she mentioned europeans give kisses on the lips too lol being bold I asked her to give me a kiss on the lips! she said "That would be awkward" lol cant believe I did that lol fuck it.

I approached a 40 something asian milf at walmart, she had a nice rack on her and said fuck it i directly approached her. She wasnt interested, i asked her if she was single and she said no, i would give you my number if i was lol.

She looked trashy when i got close, kinda weird to approach a lady much older than me. but fuck it, i liked her rack!

 

[ocantu1987]

ahhhh the darkness. went to the pool hall by myself, my intention was to shoot pool to practice my game not talk to girls, but i saw a bunch of couples together making out. It hit me really hard, im thinking everybody but me has a girl.I never heard from the 2 girls i texted, i felt extremely lonely.

I called my dad and i was just about to let it out, and cry, but my dad quickly lifted me up (hes awesome) he tells me that he went along time without women, tons of rejection for a year. after that his luck greatly improved, He told me that to get girls Oscar you got to do one simple thing, GET OUT! they dont know you exist until they see you. playing video games at home doesnt help.

im not giving up, i will go back out,thanks dad

 

[ocantu1987]

man things get better and better for me lol. yesterday i hung out with my buddy from work, eveything was cool with me and him, i managed an approach on a 6ft blonde with a nice rack.
she came in at the bar alone and she was sexy. i said i got to try, so i went for it, my buddy wished me luck.

Me:excuse me, i like your tattoos
her:why thank you
Me:im oscar
Her:im courtney

so we had a good talk, i was touching her early and often and she didnt mind. i felt we had a great conversation flow. I teased her on her height im 5'8" this girl is 6ft! , and she made fun of my haircut lol

i asked her what she does for fun such as hobbies and she said nothing much haha it was dying at the end. i said she was talking to a handsome stranger, and she quickly shot me down lol "you think your handsome?" lol every time i say to people im good lokking they shoot me down for some reason, on the other hand ive been told numerous times im handsome wtf

i decided to go for the number close and she agreed, just that she gave me a fake number

haha this is a first for me, got to keep moving.

hung out with my buddies friend who claims to get plenty of chicks, i was thinking i could have him as my wingman lol big mistake! i went with this guy and his friend to a bar and i made one approach that went nowhere, but at the end of the night this douchebag leaves me at the bar stranded! he fucking took off without me.

erghhh ive learned my lesson, im flying solo from now on. I can never find a good wingman and now i cant trust anybody. I will stop this and quit searching for the perfect wingman, got to depend on myself.

overall terrible night, i wasnt dressed that good art all and females ignored the shit out of me. on the positive, im getting better at conversation with women, this last conversation with girl lasted a good 10 minutes wich is a world record for me.

not giving up yet

 

[ocantu1987]

just watched a simple pickup vid https://www.youtube.com/watch?annotatio ... K6ajgz0Rac

the mottos that hit me was "As long as you go out and take action, you will see success!" "In order to see success, you also need to experience failure!"

Gonna daygame today!

 

[ocantu1987]

went to the mall. I approached 1 latina walking fast (had to chase her) i couldn't build a great connection conversation wise.

she was very warm to my approach , but she had a girlfriend wtf, she didnt look gay at all lol at first i didnt believe her, but i think she was honest with me.

she was smiling alot and laughing at my stupid jokes, she kept refusing to give me her number because she was taken lol but i liked how warm she was with me.

she was the only girl i saw as a target, there was one white girl who was with a friend, but im a latina slayer

 

[ocantu1987]

went out last night

but i approached a group of 2 latinas. 1 girl was smoking hot (Adrianna) and 1 girl was a whale (Petra)

I went over to talk to them with "I thought ya'll were having the best time, so i had to come over" they burst out laughing and the whale instantly invited me to sit down (thats a first) the fat girl was asking me alot of questions.

the hot girl was engaging me a lil bit. She told me something that got me by surprise as well as making feel like im making progress.

Adrianna told me "so how are you like james bond, so confident "
I said "women like that right? (Smile on my face)" she said "Yes! absolutely! "

lol sweet! I asked if the girls were single and of course the fat girl was single and the hot girl had a man, father of her twins.

they started going cold on me, and i said i aint going to ask for the fat girls number lol so i bailed. They were a little surprised I left, it was a little to early.

overall i like the compliment one girl gave me, but i wasnt making great conversation much. my big weakness is conversation.

 

[ocantu1987]

Ocantu,

Been following your journal for a while and love your ballsy approaches. Glad your starting night gaming now too! Def some inspiration for my own approaches. I gotta say, with all that approaching, I'd highly recommend to train yourself to start asking for the # every single damn time. Even if it's awkward haha. Always use "natural number swapping" so you have a date pre planned and seeded in her mind and do not worry if she responds or doesn't respond to ice breaker(yes it's a good sign, but many girls will respond to a second text that's sent at a more strategic time if you get it to them when they are bored) you do not need much convo for numbers. Just get it and leave and get out fast!

Nightgame is a good place to work on conversation and just stick in there, instead of focusing on conversation focus on isolating and deep diving. Make her do the talking! If things aren't going well just focus on having FUN. A good night exercise for conversation is to talk about nonsense and focus on your vibe. Just say ridiculous stupid things that make no sense and are funny! Focus on making her say you're weird or crazy or just laugh! Basically go in simple pickup style.

Your approaches seem really great in the journal, there's no reason you shouldn't be getting lots of dates and sex with a decent amount of these! You just have to keep moving it forward til she says no more with every single girl. Don't end it on a high note and never see her again! Just my 2 cents man. Keep up the ballsy work and keep approaching and journaling!

Repeat to youself that it's better to be rejected than to not push it forward.

-radeng

thanks for the advice man,will definitely try out what you said, i appreciate any feedback i can get

yeah i still havent had a date yet out of all the girls ive asked for numbers. they always seem to be taken and one girl at the mall seemed interested in me, but she never replied to my text. Will keep sarging.

anyway tips on isolating women? these were 2 girls together, and im not sure how i could isolate 1 of them and leave the friend by them-self.