Poor fundamentals and getting attractive women. Does this actually happen?

[raiden]

I have primarily gone on dates from online dating systems. Recently, I started going to dating events in my town. These are just singles events, not speed dating or anything. They're paid entry and I often see the ladies' tickets sell out sooner than the gentlemen's. The events that I went to had a good number of women compared to men so I figured that these events are a great place for me to transition to approach, albeit kind of warm approach.

I'm getting into events because my fundamentals suck and, after years of using these dating systems and getting bad results, I'm getting middle aged and hopeless, and finding that I want to have a family.

At the first event I went to, I said hi to lots of women but most of them had to get going to the bathroom or something. I tried to ask one out but I got dismissed with a suggestion to follow on Instagram. I even remember saying hi to a woman and having her say hi and then turn and walk right away.

At my next event, I tried a similar way. I met one woman who was open to talking to me, sitting with me etc. we spoke for a while and I did the usual stuff of talking about her, joking and teasing a little etc. and then agreed to a date. During the talk, she mentioned that she noticed me and hoped that I might talk to her. That disappointed me because it meant that this was a missed approach invitation, and that I didn't get the date because of my social skills etc but just because of my fundamentals. I figured that , on fundamentals alone, I'm not going to achieve the dating goals I want. After finishing with that woman I tried to chat with more women around the room and I got basically the same reception as I did at the first event with women saying that they were on their way out when I said hi to them or needing to leave the area to look for somebody elsewhere in the bar.

My question is this. Is my goal actually achievable or is this how it will always be? It seemed like no matter how well I open, approach etc I will just get the same dismissive reception and be judged only by my fundamentals. Can I only get dates with women who would give me approach invitations?Remember that my fundamentals suck so I'm not going to get good approach invitations. What about guys who are ugly, overweight etc but can date attractive women. How did they overcome their deficiencies?

 

[gameboy]

During the talk, she mentioned that she noticed me and hoped that I might talk to her. That disappointed me because it meant that this was a missed approach invitation, and that I didn't get the date because of my social skills etc but just because of my fundamentals.

Why would that disappoint you? It's a compliment for you! And it's proof that there are women out there who like your looks.

You're contradicting yourself when you say in one sentence "my fundamentals are terrible", and in another, "I got the date because of my fundamentals".

I understand that it hurts the self esteem to get blown out all the time. I have days where it's the same for me. But there's always going to be some women who will like you. When that happens, rejoice in the feeling and take it as encouragement to keep going!

 

[raiden]

Why would that disappoint you? It's a compliment for you! And it's proof that there are women out there who like your looks.

You're contradicting yourself when you say in one sentence "my fundamentals are terrible", and in another, "I got the date because of my fundamentals".

I understand that it hurts the self esteem to get blown out all the time. I have days where it's the same for me. But there's always going to be some women who will like you. When that happens, rejoice in the feeling and take it as encouragement to keep going!

I'm basically asking here how I can overcome my poor fundamentals. Can it really be the case that your opener, usage of deep diving, teasing etc really don't matter and that it all comes down to fundamentals? How do guys with poor fundamentals get attractive women if he is effectively rejected before he opens? There must be something that I'm not getting.

Remember also that if I wanted to get dates based on my fundamentals alone, I would just stick with online dating systems. I wasn't completely excited about the women I was meeting from there and that's why I started on these events.

 

[gameboy]

Can it really be the case that your opener, usage of deep diving, teasing etc really don't matter and that it all comes down to fundamentals?

Both matter. This girl likes you but you're still beating yourself up about it. If she didn't like your opener, teasing, social skills as you say, she probably wouldn't have told you that she hoped you would approach her, don't you think?

 

[Will_V]

@raiden it depends what fundamentals you're talking about.

Things like self esteem, charisma, posture, voice tone, eye contact etc are fundamentals and pretty much non negotiable, or at least you'll struggle a lot without them.

You can be not goodlooking and/or dressed poorly (though some kind of style, even if it's a dirty/wild one, goes a long way) and still get good results, as long as the above fundamentals are really dialed in, and you're willing to soldier through some icy waters at the beginning of an approach.

I'm getting middle aged and hopeless, and finding that I want to have a family.

This is typically the attitude that will make it hardest for a guy, where he thinks he's running out of time and getting desperate. He'll start coming off as needy, failing tests because of lack of resolve and willingness to walk away, and get himself in long term deals where he's conceding his standards and frame left and right. Women have a hounds nose for guys in this state, and that's no doubt why a lot of them are judging you quickly as not for them.

It's much better to spend some time being successful with women before choosing one from your dating pool based on how well she performs compared to the rest.

If I were you I'd give myself a real makeover, get trim/muscular, get everything possible dialed in 110%, have some fun and then pick the best of the litter on my own terms.

 

[raiden]

Both matter. This girl likes you but you're still beating yourself up about it. If she didn't like your opener, teasing, social skills as you say, she probably wouldn't have told you that she hoped you would approach her, don't you think?

Yeah but if the whole thing came from an approach invitation which came from my fundamentals. So what exactly was the benefit of approaching or going to an event over just using the dating systems? The whole point was that I have substandard fundamentals and so will get unsatisfactory results from dating systems. So I wanted to go approaching in an attempt to outperform my fundamentals. If that's not even possible, then it feels like I might as well not learn to approach. There are plenty of attractive women at these events but if I'm disqualified before I even walk in because of my fundamentals, what is the point even trying?

 

[Skills]

it happens, but why would you want to make things way harder for yourself...

The worst your fundamentals the more work, hustle and numbers you will have to put in, specially now a days...is retarded... But yes i seen plenty of guys with bad fundamentals getting laid (more in the past) in this environment, unlikely though.... wayyyyyyyyyy more effort.... I seen a lot of guys i help also misdiagnose lack of social dynamics, and attractive actions blaming it on "fundamentals", based on your op i am not sure is the fundamentals, i had a dude here recently i was helping thinking he problem was his fundamentals, i knew it was not, and he got laid same week with a 9 and cont. to get laid with 8 plus after... guys misdiagnose themselves all the time... i did a post on this:

how to know if your fundamentals is the problem

I thought i do a quick post and actually i want people to participate and give their opinion on when to know is your fundamentals.... now my definition of fundamentals i think is different or may not from the definition of the community.... For me fundamentals are the external factors we can...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[gameboy]

what is the point even trying?

You got a woman, so I don't understand your question.

 

[Swati]

Interesting thing, today.

From night game I adopted some attention grabbing fits and sometimes I'd wear them outside to day game and it's weird it's like girls more likely to be reactive to me, more extreme of the good or bad, I don't think anything is "wrong" with me. I changed up my style, wearing a white t shirt and 8 year old pants, not do my hair, looking more "square" it improved my hook rates I feel and insta dated the 2nd girls I approached.

you need to play around with your attainability, appearance is one of your fundamentals.

Again in night game you need to have a bit more of that "flash" fundamental whereas day game it could backfire.

 

[Atlas IV]

Interesting thing, today.

From night game I adopted some attention grabbing fits and sometimes I'd wear them outside to day game and it's weird it's like girls more likely to be reactive to me, more extreme of the good or bad, I don't think anything is "wrong" with me. I changed up my style, wearing a white t shirt and 8 year old pants, not do my hair, looking more "square" it improved my hook rates I feel and insta dated the 2nd girls I approached.

you need to play around with your attainability, appearance is one of your fundamentals.

Again in night game you need to have a bit more of that "flash" fundamental whereas day game it could backfire.

I have had this same realization recently, going from a polarizing flashy style to a somewhat more plain mainstream style (defined mainly by curly hair and baggy pants). It's hugely improved my daygame hook rate.

I now believe less is more when it comes to daygame appearance. I think of it as making yourself into a good-looking blank slate upon which women can project their fantasies. Stylish enough to fit their social frame, not so specific that you pigeonhole yourself as a certain "type".

Then you can focus on charming them on the approach and let them fill in the blank with their imagination.

 

[raiden]

it happens, but why would you want to make things way harder for yourself...

The worst your fundamentals the more work, hustle and numbers you will have to put in, specially now a days...is retarded... But yes i seen plenty of guys with bad fundamentals getting laid (more in the past) in this environment, unlikely though.... wayyyyyyyyyy more effort.... I seen a lot of guys i help also misdiagnose lack of social dynamics, and attractive actions blaming it on "fundamentals", based on your op i am not sure is the fundamentals, i had a dude here recently i was helping thinking he problem was his fundamentals, i knew it was not, and he got laid same week with a 9 and cont. to get laid with 8 plus after... guys misdiagnose themselves all the time... i did a post on this:

how to know if your fundamentals is the problem

I thought i do a quick post and actually i want people to participate and give their opinion on when to know is your fundamentals.... now my definition of fundamentals i think is different or may not from the definition of the community.... For me fundamentals are the external factors we can...

www.skilledseducer.com

I was using the same indirect opener throughout the night. One woman hooked and we agreed a date. Everything else was a blow out. Doesn't that show that the approach, interaction etc is sound but that the fundamentals are the problem? These are blow outs or dismissiveness right at the opener like you mentioned in your post there.

You got a woman, so I don't understand your question.

My aim is to have a slim and mentally stable woman interested in me and then proceed to a relationship or marriage. I had the impression that it was achievable if I just put in the work going on dates and approaching but now I am not sure. I am feeling like no matter how much I improve my dating, interaction and approach skills, those skills would only be relevant to the women who haven't rejected me for my fundamentals before any courtship can start. Then I worry they every slim and mentally stable woman would reject me for my fundamentals and that my goal is therefore unachievable.

 

[Skills]

I was using the same indirect opener throughout the night. One woman hooked and we agreed a date. Everything else was a blow out. Doesn't that show that the approach, interaction etc is sound but that the fundamentals are the problem? These are blow outs or dismissiveness right at the opener like you mentioned in your post there.

this is from my post i linked:

however, if you are opening decently and getting weird reactions constantly or blow outs from opening.... lets say you try to open 10 girls and 10 girls don't even let you finish the opening.... i think you could explore if is actually the fundamentals...

 

[Will_V]

Yeah but if the whole thing came from an approach invitation which came from my fundamentals. So what exactly was the benefit of approaching or going to an event over just using the dating systems?

There are plenty of attractive women at these events but if I'm disqualified before I even walk in because of my fundamentals, what is the point even trying?

You do realize you're contradicting yourself here right? First you are disappointed because your fundamentals got you an approach invitation, then you are disappointed because your fundamentals are disqualifying you.

Not sure what solution you're looking for exactly.

 

[raiden]

You do realize you're contradicting yourself here right? First you are disappointed because your fundamentals got you an approach invitation, then you are disappointed because your fundamentals are disqualifying you.

Not sure what solution you're looking for exactly.

The whole point of going to these events was to improve my skills at approaching and interacting so that I am no longer at the mercy of my lousy fundamentals like I am on the online dating systems. But every experience at the events so far has indicated that what I'm doing isn't really feasible, and that an approach invitation is pretty much a prerequisite for a successful approach. That's why I'm disappointed in both.

The solution I'm looking for is a way to get dates with women who don't give me an approach invitation and who dislike my fundamentals.

 

[Rakehell]

From cold approach? Very rarely. It’s the same likelihood as you landing a good paying job cold walking into places that are hiring with shabby fundamentals.

Odds are 1/100. If not Higher.

Context matters, if you are coming from the gym, or some other place that you wouldn’t normally look your best for, you can get away with that, and it might even give you a “boost” when you show up put together. Given that you present as a COOL dude.

But if your fundamentals are always “bad”, which there really is no excuse for, you will put on alot more outright rejections than you would need to.

You’d need something else really good going for you, or to have your game down pack. And even still, most people are going to judge you immediately, leaving no room for your “game”.

By your physicality, and mannerisms, and how you present. It’s not only about how your face looks, but if you don’t consider yourself physically attractive, then you really should get the other stuff on point. There isn’t an excuse.

 

[Just a Man]

I had the impression that it was achievable if I just put in the work going on dates and approaching but now I am not sure.

I think part of the problem might be with the mindset that this is about 'putting in the work'. If approaching and dating feel like 'work' to you, that's not going to create the kind of vibe or energy that's likely to appeal to most women, IMO.

Approaching and dating should ideally be done, I think, in a spirit of playfulness and taking pleasure in life and other people.

The place to 'put in the work' is in doing whatever you can to address the fundamentals that you believe are so bad. Unless they're unchangeable things, e.g. being permanently wheelchair-bound, then that's where the 'work' should be going.

The rest should be a pleasure.

 

[raiden]

I think part of the problem might be with the mindset that this is about 'putting in the work'. If approaching and dating feel like 'work' to you, that's not going to create the kind of vibe or energy that's likely to appeal to most women, IMO.

Approaching and dating should ideally be done, I think, in a spirit of playfulness and taking pleasure in life and other people.

The place to 'put in the work' is in doing whatever you can to address the fundamentals that you believe are so bad. Unless they're unchangeable things, e.g. being permanently wheelchair-bound, then that's where the 'work' should be going.

The rest should be a pleasure.

Dude I have been on this journey for like 8 years at this point, reading GC (not necessarily following it) and trying to go on dates with the aim of getting a girlfriend. I'm a sick SOB. It also feels unnatural for a middle aged guy like me to still be in the dating phase of my life. It feels like I should have moved on from struggling with the dating game to struggling with relationship game, if not doing stuff like family planning.

If I have crappy vibes or energy then I can accept that and work on it. But I still want to determine whether it's that or my fundamentals. What complicates things a little is that my usual vibe, energy and opener worked well on one woman.

My fundamentals suck because I'm deficient in height and race, and these seem to matter here in my town. Dating coaches in the past have approved my clothing, hair style, beard style and body shape.

 

[Just a Man]

My fundamentals suck because I'm deficient in height and race, and these seem to matter here in my town. Dating coaches in the past have approved my clothing, hair style, beard style and body shape.

Okay: so height and race you cannot change, so it's better to own it than to feel that these are terrible. Regarding height, the impact this is actually having will depend how extreme this is. You know, if you're 5 foot 4, or 6 foot 6, then sure, it's on the uncommonly short or tall side for a man, but ultimately no biggie at all if you have confidence and charisma, etc. But if you're 4 foot 9, or 7 foot, then you have probably got a more limited pool of women who'll be receptive.

Regarding race and this being also something that seems to matter in your town, I'd be wondering if you even want to be making long-term plans in that kind of town. I know lots of people who've not only changed towns but also countries.

It also feels unnatural for a middle aged guy like me to still be in the dating phase of my life. It feels like I should have moved on from struggling with the dating game to struggling with relationship game, if not doing stuff like family planning.

There are no fixed phases. I'm pretty sure there are people dating in their 80s and good for them.

Who says you 'should' be in a relationship and maybe family planning? I'm not saying these things are wrong; they're goals a lot of people have. And if you want that, then great. But a lot of that's just cultural baggage that gets dumped on us. It's also okay to enjoy having freedom.

 

[Will_V]

The whole point of going to these events was to improve my skills at approaching and interacting so that I am no longer at the mercy of my lousy fundamentals like I am on the online dating systems. But every experience at the events so far has indicated that what I'm doing isn't really feasible, and that an approach invitation is pretty much a prerequisite for a successful approach. That's why I'm disappointed in both.

First of all, fundamentals are not just height and race. Posture, eye contact, smile, voice tonality, etc can completely eclipse those immediate visual characteristics within a couple of seconds. Women often gauge men intuitively and very quickly based on these things. If you are walking around looking like you're feeling like shit, expect women to reject you immediately. But when you have those dialed in, women usually give you a few seconds of curiosity time to see what you are about, and that's often more than enough.

What also matters a LOT is how you react to a lukewarm or cold response. Some women believe that guys of certain characteristics are weak/clingy/needy/whatever, and will immediately put out a response that is basically designed to elicit the reaction she expects, or defend against it. If you are being emotionally reactive to her initial barrier, that's going to put you in to 'no' bucket right away. You have to make her realize in a few seconds 'oh this guy is different from what I expected'.

These two things matter way more than your height and race, but it can be hard to separate the effects when you go in anxious with the expectation of being rejected for the things you can't change.

The solution I'm looking for is a way to get dates with women who don't give me an approach invitation and who dislike my fundamentals.

If a woman really dislikes your 'fundamentals' (by which I assume you mean your height and race) then it's unlikely things will pan out. Usually a woman is at least ambivalent about you at first sight. The rest of the fundamentals I mentioned (which you can change) can move things from 'ambivalent' all the way to 'very interested' in a short time.

I don't believe these women are disqualifying you immediately for your height and race. I believe they're reacting to your vibe which is broadcasting 'I'm walking into a defeat here and there's nothing I can do'. Any sort of vibe like that is absolute poison for seduction.

Or, if not that, then your changeable fundamentals are probably a lot more out of shape than you think, and their first impression of you is not good enough.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

I have primarily gone on dates from online dating systems. Recently, I started going to dating events in my town. These are just singles events, not speed dating or anything. They're paid entry and I often see the ladies' tickets sell out sooner than the gentlemen's. The events that I went to had a good number of women compared to men so I figured that these events are a great place for me to transition to approach, albeit kind of warm approach.

These are almost universally terrible.
The atmosphere is actually artificial, and your in person/one on one game has to be SPECTACULAR. This is on top of having awesome fundamentals.

The hack for this is you really gotta break the one on one dynamic, and use the group and social proof to your advantage.

It might be getting all the guys together into a bull session and then using them as a draw for the ladies. Maybe tell a story and get them to all laugh, and then bring chicks into that mix.

It could be something else, but the set up of paid meets is that these broads still think they could do better, and even though they paid money and will likely go home alone again.

I'm getting into events because my fundamentals suck and, after years of using these dating systems and getting bad results, I'm getting middle aged and hopeless, and finding that I want to have a family.

What's your social circle looking like?
What's your social life looking like?
What do you do on the weekends?

At the first event I went to, I said hi to lots of women but most of them had to get going to the bathroom or something. I tried to ask one out but I got dismissed with a suggestion to follow on Instagram. I even remember saying hi to a woman and having her say hi and then turn and walk right away.

Poor fundamentals, agreed.

At my next event, I tried a similar way. I met one woman who was open to talking to me, sitting with me etc. we spoke for a while and I did the usual stuff of talking about her, joking and teasing a little etc. and then agreed to a date. During the talk, she mentioned that she noticed me and hoped that I might talk to her. That disappointed me because it meant that this was a missed approach invitation, and that I didn't get the date because of my social skills etc but just because of my fundamentals.

Missing a signal is a different type of fundamental.

Fundamentals in the pickup sense is usually clothing, hygiene, fitness and not fatness.

It's not having some sort of social radar or the rudiments of pickup internalized.

So when you step up and can't really get traction, the problem is that you've been written off before you can really say a word.

General rules for mixers

Always talk to people, just to talk, just to get the tongue loose, to get into a talkative mood.

And always talk to the girl you're most interested in. (And that assumption is almost always based on her visuals, because you don't have any idea of what she's like as a person).

It doesn't, and often shouldn't be an attempt to pick her up. It should simply be a discussion. Canned stuff works great, but just talk to her. No compliments, no jokes, no teasing. She needs a hook that isn't romantic/sexual.

This is not pickup, far from it, but my sense from your writing here, is that you need to work on baseline socialization, as opposed to hitting the chicks emotional buttons with the immediate purpose of bedding her.

I figured that , on fundamentals alone, I'm not going to achieve the dating goals I want. After finishing with that woman I tried to chat with more women around the room and I got basically the same reception as I did at the first event with women saying that they were on their way out when I said hi to them or needing to leave the area to look for somebody elsewhere in the bar.

Understood.

My question is this. Is my goal actually achievable or is this how it will always be?

We don't know enough about you, or how you behave.

It seemed like no matter how well I open, approach etc I will just get the same dismissive reception and be judged only by my fundamentals.

So what have you done to work on your fundamentals?

What have you done to change your environment?

Can I only get dates with women who would give me approach invitations?Remember that my fundamentals suck so I'm not going to get good approach invitations.

No.

What about guys who are ugly,

They develop great personalities, they are fun and engaging to interact with.

overweight etc but can date attractive women.

Many lose weight and get muscle.

How did they overcome their deficiencies?

Personality.

Mick Jagger
Patrice O'Neal
Kevin Hart
Danny De Vito
Peter Dinklage
Steve Buscemi
Jesse Plemons
Aziz Ansari
Ken Jeong

I could go on and on, but most famous guys are really good at connecting with people on emotional levels.

You make them feel what you feel.
And you feel what they feel.

The singers, the comedians, the actors.
The politicians and preachers.

It's all the same stuff over and over again, especially when you don't look like a god.

In the night game, there are always tall guys, pretty boys, gym rats, thousand-aires pretending to be billionaires, drug dealers, trust fund kids, "entrepreneurs", fashion plates, etc.

And then there are normal/ugly/fat guys chatting with women that seem to be enjoying the interaction.

That's what pickup has been about, you want to be the guy where there is no visible explanation for the success with women.