PSA: Sugar dating is not pickup, it is prostitution

[Chad Tyrone]

BUMP.

Playing the game on easy mode really doesn't cut it out for me. I want it "hard". Feels pretty much like playing a hacked game(mod apks ) or beating a boss ... of course u are winning but deep down u really know ur skill level is that shitty. Yet nothing feels as great as beating that boss after failing and failing at previous levels. You have build this great foundation based on experiences u could look back on to. If anything ,hard is what makes things enjoyable for me...I just have a disdain for simple stuff or things that I got easily.

But many won't have this feeling especially game-unaware guys. Their worldview is based on having sex only in relationships or using money to get it. They chase for relationships thus enter into a woman's frame from the outset or use their often hard earned cash just to get their schlong wet. Yet it hardly ever crosses their minds that these things are easy to come once you put in the work into yourself as a guy i.e once you have got the opening, hooking ,isolation and closing phases down-pat for one night stands ; conversion and relationship management for relationships .Think of these phases as unlocking new levels...once you are getting towards the later phases ,boy, trust me you are getting ur skill down or rather tightening it.

That may mean rebuffs when opening..."I want to use the washrooms or "T'was nice to meet you. Bye" in poor hook phases ...cockblocks when u go for isolation or LMR during the closing phase. To me it's all a game cause i'm encountering challenges that I can easily overcome. It's kinda hard cause i'm putting the effort in especially when encountering new situations and have to come up with something on the fly. What makes this fun is that most times u succeed despite it being new-ey.

With prostitutes and "hired" girlfriends u playing it easy...no challenges whatsoever. Pay cash and get it. How is that exciting lol. Worst off u build ur mental model off reference "it's all money when it comes to getting girls" experiences. Yet to a point watching porn can bring about such a worldview of wanting things easy. You become subject to "missing out" cause most guys there are getting it. You end up comparing yourself with guys that hired a hooker or were hired to shoot a porn video. That's not game. Really great that over here you can look up to smooth seducers who don't have to go around shooting videos bragging about adding another to their notch count. You healthily compare ur skill level to theirs and figure out how to get to the next level.

Sugar daddies and whore mongers are playing a different game from yours. Play your own. Play it hard, buddy.

Focus on skill. Real notches

Here's to beating them bosses
Chad Tyrone.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Sugar dating is an interesting topic, because a lot of guys think that money would finally get them the top shelf girls they're not currently able to get... especially in today's culture. "If only I was rich!"

I have friends who have both money and game who tried sugar dating in various ways, so I'll share my perspective based on their experience.

Disclaimer: I am a cold approach guy who vomits on dating apps and will not use one even if I got paid. I have not paid for sex but not aginst it. I do like teh challenge and is a fun hobby for me to game instead of pay. I do believe that MONEY at the end of the line is more powerful.

That's cool that you're approaching... your post sounds a bit like those manosphere guys who have given up on game, but I can see you're not.

Well... I would just say that at the end of teh day one either pays for pussy with TIME or with MONEY.

TIME is finite. You can not make more of it and incurs in opportunity cost with other things in your life.

MONEY is an absolute and universal value, eternal (as long as the financial system exists) and you can make it while you sleep without opportunity cost of you know what you are doing.

Agreed.

If you pick up a girl, you pay with your time.
If you fuck a hooker, you pay with your money.

But sugar dating you pay her with BOTH!
Can we say TURBO SIMP?

The main problem with sugar dating is the meta frame: you are not only lower value than her, but the value gap is so huge that you have to pay her for the privilege of even hanging out.

Imagine every time you meet one of your friends you have to give him money for it. That's a guy who does not respect you and in fact doesn't even want to be around you. And if he was rich, you would never see him again.

Not a good basis for a relationship, be it a friendship or romance. In fact I can't think of many ways that would make one feel like more of a loser than that.

With enough MONEY you can get ANY sort of chik you may want.

You can get her body, but not her mind or emotions. That can be a lot of fun for a quick bang for 20 minutes. Even rappers and celebs do that. But for dating it's ultimately very unfulfilling.

I have one very wealthy friend who uses money for relationships (not hookups) the right way: he doesn't use sugar dating websites, but picks up girls at clubs with cold approach, and ropes them in with regular game.

Only later when they're already dating, the girls find out he's loaded and can take them on trips, buy fancy shit, take them to luxury restaurants and so forth. If you do it that way, it really solidifies the relationship.

Thing is, you need to have ATTRACTION FIRST. This guy does MMA, is in great shape, dresses cool, is confident and has good verbal game. Money will turbo charge that foundation. (I was out with him and his current girl last night and she's a total smoke show btw... wow).

If you lack all the the other stuff though, and if you start with MONEY FIRST (such as on a sugar dating website), she won't ever really respect you, and you will always wonder if she actually likes you.

Honestly sugar dating is a really sad thing. Further, these kinds of situations are almost never exclusive so don't fall in love with your sugar baby. You won't be her only one.

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Ah yes the topic of sugar dating comes up again. As someone who has actively participated in this in the past I'd like to share my perspective and address a few misconceptions

If you want an excellent summary of what kind of girls you'll find on sugar dating apps, this post by @POB Covers it beautifully:


IS IT POSSIBLE TO FUCK THEM WITHOUT PAYING?
Yes and no. There are four kinds of chicks on those apps
1) disguised escorts;
2) hardcore provider hunters looking for a rich sucker;
3) sugar babies;
4) curious chicks who are not SBs;

Chicks from 1 and 2 will be very upfront about money and are the most expensive...you cannot negotiate the price with them.
Chicks from 3 will probably develop a nice conversation and will be open to negotiate the value down to a certain point.
Chicks from 4 you can sure seduce and fuck without paying anything.


Before i dive deeper, i want to state the different types of turns using money can take

TYPES OF GUYS THAT LEAD WITH MONEY

There are foire ttpes of guys that lead with money:

1) provider guy with no game

2) provider guy with game

3) guy that leads with money but has game

4) guy that has no game and relies solely on paying for sex

5) guy that leads with game but uses money after sex to solidify investment

6) guy that has game but pays for it on the side occasionally

I want to dive deeper into the last guy and use POB breakdown to explain some things

First off, not every girl on sugar baby site will fuck you for money. A lot of times, If you lack personality, charisma, dont fit their physical type or are rude... not a chance

There is some element in game involved in sugar dating as you can use that to get many girls without paying anything except for date costs. Or at the least, get her to reduce prices.

Also, there are also instances where you pay once, fuck her then keep fucking her without paying ever again. And she just relies on other guys for payment


And lastly, while you paying makes you come across as low value, you still have to attempt to frame things differently. Ideally you dont want to act like you don't get girls. You also dont want to tolerate any rude behaviour. And you want to as much as possible frame money as worth more than her pussy. And find ways to dhv and frame things in your favour

ANY UPSIDE TO SUGAR DATING?

Generally the downsides are way more especially if you're constantly paying. However if you're finding ways to get girls without paying for it then you're in a better position. F&F had a course on using sugar dating sites to get girls without paying and it was pretty good.

I do believe there are upsides to it. For example i am more care free given that i genuinely don't see how a girl selling her body is going to make her have more value in my head. I don't Saudi princes that fly girls over and make them do many wild sexual acts think to themselves "wow she has so much value than me that's why I'm paying" Really it's all about framing

Also, going on dates with these girls is a great way to practice game material, routines and delivery without the pressure. One thing you'll know notice is both sugat babies and regular girls respond in very similar ways to some of the things you say. And often times have similar shit tests

Also, i know guys that got really good at sex through this method

Lastly, when i say frame things in your favour regarding this, think someone like Dan Bilzerian or a saudi prince and his lifestyle.
Clearly Dan leads with money, has some game but in his mind it's more of I'm doing the girl a favour rather than vice versa.
And try if possible not to pay for it

MY SUMMARY

At the end of the day i have to say that sugar dating is not a replacement for cold approach and the normal seduction process. Neither is online dating

And nothing builds your skills more than cold approach and doing things the harder way rather than getting it easy.

I never recommend sugar dating especially for newbies but at the end of the day i don't have much issues with it it as long as it's not all you do or the majority of what you do.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

However if you're finding ways to get girls without paying for it then you're in a better position. F&F had a course on using sugar dating sites to get girls without paying and it was pretty good.

Agreed. I wasn't referencing this angle in my post because I know this as "salt dating", not sugar dating. I saw a course about it 5 years ago... seems a pretty valid angle but I agree that the downsides are still more than the upsides.

I do believe there are upsides to it. For example i am more care free given that i genuinely don't see how a girl selling her body is going to make her have more value in my head.

True also, I agree. For the guy who does sugar dating (with money), he will feel like the girl is higher value than him because she has so many guys like him. But for the guy who does salt dating, this could give him a fairly big confidence boost on these dates.

I don't Saudi princes that fly girls over and make them do many wild sexual acts think to themselves "wow she has so much value than me that's why I'm paying" Really it's all about framing

Agreed. To them these girls are hookers, not "dates".

Also, going on dates with these girls is a great way to practice game material, routines and delivery without the pressure. One thing you'll know notice is both sugat babies and regular girls respond in very similar ways to some of the things you say. And often times have similar shit tests

Yeah, I've done that sometimes with strippers. If you're going to practice material, might as well use hot girls rather than fatties lol.

I never recommend sugar dating especially for newbies but at the end of the day i don't have much issues with it it as long as it's not all you do or the majority of what you do.

I guess you're still talking about salt dating here right? Personally I would say:

• Hookers, fine. Many of the highest value men do it, celebs, athletes, rappers. But only go with girls you get a good vibe with or it'll suck.
• Salt dating, also fine. You're higher value by default because she's the one doing sex for money type dating, you are not.
• Sugar dating, bottom of the barrel: you're paying with both your money and your time and the meta frame is extremely low value

2c

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Agreed. I wasn't referencing this angle in my post because I know this as "salt dating", not sugar dating. I saw a course about it 5 years ago... seems a pretty valid angle but I agree that the downsides are still more than the upsides.

True also, I agree. For the guy who does sugar dating (with money), he will feel like the girl is higher value than him because she has so many guys like him. But for the guy who does salt dating, this could give him a fairly big confidence boost on these dates.

Agreed. To them these girls are hookers, not "dates".

Yeah, I've done that sometimes with strippers. If you're going to practice material, might as well use hot girls rather than fatties lol.

I guess you're still talking about salt dating here right? Personally I would say:

• Hookers, fine. Many of the highest value men do it, celebs, athletes, rappers. But only go with girls you get a good vibe with or it'll suck.
• Salt dating, also fine. You're higher value by default because she's the one doing sex for money type dating, you are not.
• Sugar dating, bottom of the barrel: you're paying with both your money and your time and the meta frame is extremely low value

2c

Just hearing about salt dating for the first time lol.. i kind of joined everything together as sugar dating

But yeah, your explanation of salt dating is what i mean for the most part

 

[Skills]

there is one last point that is not mentioned.... There are a lot of seducers that hate paying for women, that are in sugar dating sites just due to leverage

some guys do tinder, bumble etc.... 100s of dudes per girl and to get the hottest girl there are 1000s of dude per girl...

They are just leveraging the app.... in seeking arrangement sites, there are more women than men, and the men are rich unatractive dudes with no game...

there are 3 types of girls on those apps:

- prostitutes'
- sugar babies (level lower than prostitute usually to pay for school like a strippers)
- and girls from regular apps that are tired of dealing with losers, want to find a dude that have their shit together....

the seducers target the 3rd level... no money exchange other than the date....(they screen out the other 2 levels fast)

Is similar to what mystery did with stripper game (nobody gave shit to mystery for this)...

The thing is we are all giving a bit of kj.... Since most here have not gone to sugar dating sites, and seduce those women without paying and fuck them....Giving opinions....

This required skill and field tested methods to be pulled off... Is not a freebie.., I am not talking bd (what he does is embarrassing with cope calling it game cause negotiating lower price)

P..s. i have 0 interest in this type of game even without paying...

 

[James Cruse]

The men that I’ve seen in the seduction community talking about “Sugar Dating” aren’t actually paying women ANY money at all:

They are using ‘sugar dating’ websites and platforms to engage attractive women for in-person dates, then seduce them with (slightly altered) standard game.

The reason they’re doing this is because the women on sugar platforms are

1. far better looking & younger women
2. Easier to get on an in-person date (due to them thinking there will be money involved)
3. Huge ratio imbalance of men:women on the websites
4. Women are more responsive on sugar dating websites (again, monetary incentive)

It’s just an alternative method to getting attractive young women on an in-person date. None of the seduction guys are actually paying them, from what I’ve seen - other than what you would pay on a normal date, some drinks and maybe abit of food.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Agreed on all points. Those points are also the reason why I listened to some podcasts about salt dating (sugar dating without money, just running regular game on them).

Ultimately I've never done it because of points 2 and 4 - the monetary incentive. I don't like fishing with that kind of bait because it sets a shitty frame up front and attracts the wrong kind of attention.

In fact I've heard from wealthy friends that this is even an issue for them on tinder. They put pictures of themselves with a sports car or on a yacht, and then complain the girls they meet are gold diggers.

I told them it's kind like a girl sticking her half naked ass in the camera on her tinder profile and then complaining that guys just want her for sex... some even put that complaints in the profile, right under the naked ass!

I'm not against it, and it clearly works... I've just never really enjoyed muddling the lines like that.
But to each their own!

 

[Skills]

The men that I’ve seen in the seduction community talking about “Sugar Dating” aren’t actually paying women ANY money at all:

They are using ‘sugar dating’ websites and platforms to engage attractive women for in-person dates, then seduce them with (slightly altered) standard game.

The reason they’re doing this is because the women on sugar platforms are

1. far better looking & younger women
2. Easier to get on an in-person date (due to them thinking there will be money involved)
3. Huge ratio imbalance of men:women on the websites
4. Women are more responsive on sugar dating websites (again, monetary incentive)

It’s just an alternative method to getting attractive young women on an in-person date. None of the seduction guys are actually paying them, from what I’ve seen - other than what you would pay on a normal date, some drinks and maybe abit of food.

Isnt this what i said, but not all some are paying like bd.

 

[Skills]

Agreed on all points. Those points are also the reason why I listened to some podcasts about salt dating (sugar dating without money, just running regular game on them).

Ultimately I've never done it because of points 2 and 4 - the monetary incentive. I don't like fishing with that kind of bait because it sets a shitty frame up front and attracts the wrong kind of attention.

In fact I've heard from wealthy friends that this is even an issue for them on tinder. They put pictures of themselves with a sports car or on a yacht, and then complain the girls they meet are gold diggers.

I told them it's kind like a girl sticking her half naked ass in the camera on her tinder profile and then complaining that guys just want her for sex... some even put that in the profile, right under the naked ass!

I'm not against it, and it clearly works... I've just never really enjoyed muddling the lines like that.
But to each their own!

Exactly

 

[PaulieFlyn10]

Isnt this what i said, but not all some are paying like bd.

Lmaoo

It's funny how everyone is repeating themselves in different ways on this thread


Btw, do you have any resources or articles on this?

 

[POB]

I did some SD apps back in 2020 before covid hit just to see if the buzz was real.

1. far better looking & younger women
2. Easier to get on an in-person date (due to them thinking there will be money involved)
3. Huge ratio imbalance of men:women on the websites
4. Women are more responsive on sugar dating websites (again, monetary incentive)

^This is basically how it goes.

- prostitutes'
- sugar babies (level lower than prostitute usually to pay for school like a strippers)
- and girls from regular apps that are tired of dealing with losers, want to find a dude that have their shit together....

^Problem is some clever hookers know about it and play the field.
They pretend to be regular chicks, but after you fuck they ask for money.

To me sugar babies are hookers, so not my cup of tea.
Yes, you can find nice regulars chicks there and pay zero dollars.
But it's not worth the trouble IMO.

 

[Skills]

Lmaoo

It's funny how everyone is repeating themselves in different ways on this thread


Btw, do you have any resources or articles on this?

The dude of pwf teaches this and his partner... as i said due to what @Karea Ricardus D. Is saying 0 interest...

 

[StrayDog]

All I know is pick up to me is not just about the sex. It's about tapping into another wavelength underneath the surface of everyday life. It is about discovering nuanced and dynamic fields of experience only accessed through actively engaged moments in the field. It is about uncovering deeper dimensions of human desire. Witnessing wild and raw expressions that occur when diverse chemical elements are combined. Wrestling with the entanglement of genuine intimacy. I like the challenge of generating all of this from seemingly nowhere. . It is about being out in the world. Being of the world. It is sublime magic.

There are some things you just can't pay for. Or rather, you pay for them in ways that are not monetary. If you are wise in your investments you create exponential returns.

I'll spend my cash on other things.

Besides all that, I often find myself joking with women that I should make them pay for my services. The experiences I guide them through, the feelings I conjure up in them, the dimensions of pleasure I unlock in their bodies and minds. I would never charge them though. Because the truth is, it is something we create together. I am sure if I wanted to I could get some of them to toss me that cash. Just not my style.

It's pick-up artist, not pay-up artist.