Reminder: The biggest part of 'Relationship Management' is choosing the right woman.

[Warped Mindless]

Introduction

Often men will ask such questions as:

Will dread game work here to get her chasing me again?
How do I create competition anxiety in my girl? Its not working!
She keeps testing me! Shes relentless! Why?
This girl is always hot/cold/hot/cold, what gives?
No matter what I do this relationship always seems like a power struggle, why?!?

Difficult women tend to remain difficult.

Yes, knowing how to create dread, competition anxiety, controling the frame, and other techniques and strategies are important but whats even more important is choosing the right girl.

The Solution

While men are biologically designed to be naturally dominant and women are biologically designed to be naturally submissive there are plenty of men and women out there with screwed up biology.

When it comes to women you have to think of it like a scale. On the far left is Absolute Dominance (AD) and on the far right is Total Submissiveness (TS).

AD --------------------- TS

Every single women you meet will be somewhere on that scale. While it is possible to train, over time, a women on the left side of the scale to become much more submissive its much simpler and less of a headache to simply screen out these Left-Scale women as potential LTR candidates.

Again, it is possible to eventually train most of these women if you have good game and excel at Operant Conditioning but with so many women who are naturally submissive, why bother?

Conclusion

So many men would have less trouble and stress with women if they would simply avoid the ones on the left side of the scale. The more left they are, the more of a headache they will be.

Yes, you will still need to know game and still need to know how to keep her chasing and investing in you no matter how submissive she is but don't fight an uphill battle when you don't need to. Feel free to keep dominant women as low effort fuck buddies but never promote them to LTR status.

With all that said there is one exception to this: When you are first embark on your journey and are still learning relationship management techniques, find a very dominant woman and make her one of your main girls for a short while. Why? Because it makes for damn good training. Once you learn how to handle a very difficult woman the more submissive ones are cake.

 

[DonGately]

Great stuff, WM. My gf from grad school and I would constantly struggle for dominance, even though I normally won. Needless to say we split up [after a while] but it really was damn good training for later. I should have dumped her a year earlier but live and learn.

 

[POB]

Bump.
More guys need to see this.

 

[ulrich]

Question, is there any drawback to have a LTR with a very submissive woman?

I am currently in a LTR with a girl who is far to the submissive side… she is super cute, super feminine and really easy to lead.

At times I get a little uncomfortable at her level of submissiveness in the sense that I would like her to be more proactive and sure of herself and don’t leave all the decisions for me… but then I think:
“Well, it’s a whole package… you have here a girl who is super excited to see you, holds you in a great esteem, follow all of your suggestions and creates very little drama… you have to take the good with the bad… which is really a minor annoyance anyway.”

Seems like a conundrum… you get an amazing girl and relationship is easy but you have to wear the pants ALL THE WAY UP in your relationship.

 

[0---]

I wholeheartedly agree with the title of the post.



However, I've always liked the version of the dominance/submissiveness model that replaced the linear scale with a triangle, with "independent" at the top.



I'm a highly independent man with some dominant characteristics. I need a highly independent woman with some submissiveness.



I'd get bored with an actually submissive woman within a few weeks.

 

[topcat]

Question, is there any drawback to have a LTR with a very submissive woman?

I am currently in a LTR with a girl who is far to the submissive side… she is super cute, super feminine and really easy to lead.

At times I get a little uncomfortable at her level of submissiveness in the sense that I would like her to be more proactive and sure of herself and don’t leave all the decisions for me… but then I think:
“Well, it’s a whole package… you have here a girl who is super excited to see you, holds you in a great esteem, follow all of your suggestions and creates very little drama… you have to take the good with the bad… which is really a minor annoyance anyway.”

Seems like a conundrum… you get an amazing girl and relationship is easy but you have to wear the pants ALL THE WAY UP in your relationship.

I can think of a few drawbacks.

I don't particularly like overly submissive women. I find it hard to respect them. Their tendency towards deference and need to be led leads me to feel as though I'm responsible for a child. Not the sexiest feeling...

I also feel as though a woman who defers so easily has very few defenses against the wiles of other assertive or dominant men. All good when she's under your roof washing your dirty drawers, I guess. Not so when you're unavailable and she is on the road struggling to fend off the advances of persistent, horny men.

I also don't see such a woman making a good mother. These are the types of women you see in grocery stores with a feral five year old son who clearly has the upper hand on her. Throwing food in the aisles, annoying other customers and jumping in the freezers. They're weak.

Also, submissive women tend to put up with things they don't like simply because they are conflict averse. This leads to resentment and them blowing up on you further along the line when it gets all too much.
I'm not a mind reader. I'd rather you bring up your grievances as near to the point of incident as possible. Blow up on me in months to come after you've let it all build up - I'll be done with your soft ass..

Obviously women in general are more submissive than men, and I certainly don't seek one as or more dominant than I. But a woman with a strong personality, dare I say a cold bitch, drives me wild. There's something to making her tough exterior crack, if only momentarily. There's a life-affirming high you get when you can make such a woman soft and girly, knowing that most men she eats alive.. The pressure to seduce, re-seduce, be on top of your game and respond with deftness and discipline is the only thing that can keep me interested in a single woman for any extended period of time..

 

[Alpha13SC]

I can think of a few drawbacks.

I don't particularly like overly submissive women. I find it hard to respect them. Their tendency towards deference and need to be led leads me to feel as though I'm responsible for a child. Not the sexiest feeling...

I also feel as though a woman who defers so easily has very few defenses against the wiles of other assertive or dominant men. All good when she's under your roof washing your dirty drawers, I guess. Not so when you're unavailable and she is on the road struggling to fend off the advances of persistent, horny men.

I also don't see such a woman making a good mother. These are the types of women you see in grocery stores with a feral five year old son who clearly has the upper hand on her. Throwing food in the aisles, annoying other customers and jumping in the freezers. They're weak.

Also, submissive women tend to put up with things they don't like simply because they are conflict averse. This leads to resentment and them blowing up on you further along the line when it gets all too much.
I'm not a mind reader. I'd rather you bring up your grievances as near to the point of incident as possible. Blow up on me in months to come after you've let it all build up - I'll be done with your soft ass..

Obviously women in general are more submissive than men, and I certainly don't seek one as or more dominant than I. But a woman with a strong personality, dare I say a cold bitch, drives me wild. There's something to making her tough exterior crack, if only momentarily. There's a life-affirming high you get when you can make such a woman soft and girly, knowing that most men she eats alive.. The pressure to seduce, re-seduce, be on top of your game and respond with deftness and discipline is the only thing that can keep me interested in a single woman for any extended period of time..

I feel you. A strong woman make the experience so much better, and the feeling when you're dominating her much more enjoyable.

Regarding a submissive one, one should see the reason of her submissiveness. How I see it, she can be submissive because you re so strong, maybe too strong(here you should see the submissive even in your relationship with other females, especially the strong ones), versus actually her nature.

In my city I find more and more feminists girls, and it's so funny when they become so compliant.

 

[DonGately]

As long as the woman is smart, I see no drawbacks to a LTR with a submissive or very submissive woman. She'll speak up as slow or as fast as any other woman. It's not just submissives who keep quiet and then blow up for 'no reason,' ha, far from it.

With a true sub, if she tell her she has to tell you 'what's wrong,' she actually will. But yes, you have to make all the decisions, pretty much. But if she doesn't eat fish, she's told you not to offer a sushi restaurant, etc.

 

[Skills]

Yeah my main during corana was a dominant (girls on that video at the beginning) it was such a different relationship of what i am used to, i picked her cause she was independent but she was independent dominant (i picked her cause most girls were scare and losing jobs, so i did not want to deal with that at the corona time), so we would bump and bump constantly (first time in my life), i also dump my girls due to corona scare(this was at the start of corona), i never really did soft next and stuff, this is the first girl i found myself having to implore those types of techniques..... What is funny is that eventually she actually fell into the frame but you can tell she was putting a lot of effort to control herself.....It was so crazy the change..... My point is this girls can fall into frame and actually give in a bit, but yeah long term is not sustainable, this type of girl is good to have as "Friends" "fbs" or maybe short term, never long term mains.... after restrictions over i was over lol...

 

[POB]

Question, is there any drawback to have a LTR with a very submissive woman?

I am currently in a LTR with a girl who is far to the submissive side… she is super cute, super feminine and really easy to lead.

At times I get a little uncomfortable at her level of submissiveness in the sense that I would like her to be more proactive and sure of herself and don’t leave all the decisions for me… but then I think:
“Well, it’s a whole package… you have here a girl who is super excited to see you, holds you in a great esteem, follow all of your suggestions and creates very little drama… you have to take the good with the bad… which is really a minor annoyance anyway.”

Seems like a conundrum… you get an amazing girl and relationship is easy but you have to wear the pants ALL THE WAY UP in your relationship.

@uriel I'll make a detailed post about this subject later when I have the time.

I've been in open long-term with both:
- very very submissive (former serious MLTR);
- super independent (my main OLTR now);

There are some pros and cons to both.

 

[ulrich]

@uriel I'll make a detailed post about this subject later when I have the time.

I've been in open long-term with both:
- very very submissive (former serious MLTR);
- super independent (my main OLTR now);

There are some pros and cons to both.

Will love to read it @POB

 

[0---]

I can think of a few drawbacks.

I don't particularly like overly submissive women. I find it hard to respect them. Their tendency towards deference and need to be led leads me to feel as though I'm responsible for a child. Not the sexiest feeling...

I also feel as though a woman who defers so easily has very few defenses against the wiles of other assertive or dominant men. All good when she's under your roof washing your dirty drawers, I guess. Not so when you're unavailable and she is on the road struggling to fend off the advances of persistent, horny men.

I also don't see such a woman making a good mother. These are the types of women you see in grocery stores with a feral five year old son who clearly has the upper hand on her. Throwing food in the aisles, annoying other customers and jumping in the freezers. They're weak.

Also, submissive women tend to put up with things they don't like simply because they are conflict averse. This leads to resentment and them blowing up on you further along the line when it gets all too much.
I'm not a mind reader. I'd rather you bring up your grievances as near to the point of incident as possible. Blow up on me in months to come after you've let it all build up - I'll be done with your soft ass..

Obviously women in general are more submissive than men, and I certainly don't seek one as or more dominant than I. But a woman with a strong personality, dare I say a cold bitch, drives me wild. There's something to making her tough exterior crack, if only momentarily. There's a life-affirming high you get when you can make such a woman soft and girly, knowing that most men she eats alive.. The pressure to seduce, re-seduce, be on top of your game and respond with deftness and discipline is the only thing that can keep me interested in a single woman for any extended period of time..

Great post.

I never really got this obsession with submissive women on these boards.

It's just aiming for the lesser challenge

 

[ulrich]

It's just aiming for the lesser challenge

I love challenge.
But I don’t necessarily want it everyday the rest of my life

 

[Skills]

Great post.

I never really got this obsession with submissive women on these boards.

It's just aiming for the lesser challenge

Cause you guys equate submissisive with a women that will just defer and never disagree with you and stuff, which could be possible, BUT, what you do is encourage/train the submissive to open up and speak their mind and be polarizing and effective communication... Which is very simple to do, then you have a good relationship but she looks up to you and accepts your leadership...

This is way more simple than getting a dominant and then having constantly some type of frame control battle, is not sustainable for an alpha man...

 

[0---]

Yeah guys I also don't like super dominant women, but as I said the model should be a triangle with independent women at the tip. They're the best, at least for an independent guy like me.

 

[Will_V]

There's a difference between a woman who is submissive, but choosy about who she will submit to, and a woman who is simply disagreeable and bossy.

Just because a woman has a strong personality, it doesn't mean she's not submissive. And just because a woman might have an easygoing personality doesn't mean she's submissive. Some of the most annoying, disagreeable women are quite passive in most respects.

For me, what is enjoyable is a woman who is submissive by nature, but who has no need to be - who strongly desires to submit for her own pleasure, but cannot or will not do so in ordinary circumstances. These women tend to be adventurous and passionate - they want something to take them to a different place, to test their limits and bring out what is inside them. That's why they often appear to be dominant, because they unconsciously are trying to arouse a challenge from a man whose frame is stronger - but it is a reactive, emotional energy, a firecracker looking for a spark, not simple disagreeableness or coldness.

 

[Skills]

There's a difference between a woman who is submissive, but choosy about who she will submit to, and a woman who is simply disagreeable and bossy.

Just because a woman has a strong personality, it doesn't mean she's not submissive. And just because a woman might have an easygoing personality doesn't mean she's submissive. Some of the most annoying, disagreeable women are quite passive in most respects.

For me, what is enjoyable is a woman who is submissive by nature, but who has no need to be - who strongly desires to submit for her own pleasure, but cannot or will not do so in ordinary circumstances. These women tend to be adventurous and passionate - they want something to take them to a different place, to test their limits and bring out what is inside them. That's why they often appear to be dominant, because they unconsciously are trying to arouse a challenge from a man whose frame is stronger - but it is a reactive, emotional energy, a firecracker looking for a spark, not simple disagreeableness or coldness.

correct also a submissive can be independent (in usa and west, most women are anyways)... Unless some guys choose to provide and let her stay at home with kids (one my wings does this and i think razor does this)

 

[DonGately]

Yeah guys I also don't like super dominant women, but as I said the model should be a triangle with independent women at the tip. They're the best, at least for an independent guy like me.

Interdependence > Independent.

Easy example is she cooks for you sometimes, because she's better at it and likes to do it for you, but she has no idea how to invest, so you help her set up a brokerage account, find index funds for her risk tolerance, etc. Or you go to the car dealership with her when she buys a car, etc, even though you're not in a romantic LTR.

Independence is fine, I was that way for a long, long time, but it's sub-optimal.

 

[0---]

Interdependence > Independent.

Easy example is she cooks for you sometimes, because she's better at it and likes to do it for you, but she has no idea how to invest, so you help her set up a brokerage account, find index funds for her risk tolerance, etc. Or you go to the car dealership with her when she buys a car, etc, even though you're not in a romantic LTR.

Independence is fine, I was that way for a long, long time, but it's sub-optimal.

I agree 100%.

BUT:

Independence = Character Trait
Interdependence = Relationship Characteristic


You can have a perfect interdependent relationship with an independent woman.


Ask me how I know.

 

[think]

Yeah guys I also don't like super dominant women

the "super dominant women" I've met or dated are usually broken in some way