Sympathy For Our Indian Brothers

[ElChe]

Apologies if the title of this post is inappropriate.

(If it is so, please do change it).

But listen.

I know this forum literally has a user designated as "Indian Race Troll"...

And I know the discussion on race has been had on this forum multiple times (and the consensus is: it doesn't matter-- improve your fundamentals and stay positive and learn game and you'll kill it)...

But if I may be allowed to say one thing...!

It is that I have gained sympathy for the Indian comrades.

Because look.

Me?
I'm in college.

One of the top 5 ranked Computer Science schools in the country (and I'm in CS).

There are tons of Indians here (maybe 20-25%?).

Indians are everywhere.

But me?

Me?

I'm ~200% Mexican.

I'm a raw, pure, authentic Mexican through and through.

But Every. Single. Person. here...

Thinks I'm Indian...!!!

"I don't want to dance with him, he's Indian" -- literally the words of a woman at the bar today.

I'm sorry y'all. I don't want to be naggy or be a troll or be complain-y. Because I NEVER had a problem with my race and have had great experiences with women.

But for once-- maybe (hopefully) the only time in my life...

I will say with certainty.

That I sympathize with our Indian comrades.

Because I swear-- there is some negative stigma attached to Indians (but only in some specific circumstances!!).

And I have felt the full force of this negative stigma tonight.

And I have never felt this before and never complained about this before and never will again. BUT. Please.

For this moment, this instant...

Let us please have some sympathy for our Indian comrades.

That is all.

 

[Spyce D]

Apologies if the title of this post is inappropriate.

(If it is so, please do change it).

But listen.

I know this forum literally has a user designated as "Indian Race Troll"...

And I know the discussion on race has been had on this forum multiple times (and the consensus is: it doesn't matter-- improve your fundamentals and stay positive and learn game and you'll kill it)...

But if I may be allowed to say one thing...!

It is that I have gained sympathy for the Indian comrades.

Because look.

Me?
I'm in college.

One of the top 5 ranked Computer Science schools in the country (and I'm in CS).

There are tons of Indians here (maybe 20-25%?).

Indians are everywhere.

But me?

Me?

I'm ~200% Mexican.

I'm a raw, pure, authentic Mexican through and through.

But Every. Single. Person. Or women here...

Thinks I'm Indian...!!!

"I don't want to dance with him, he's Indian" -- literally the words of a woman at the bar today.

I'm sorry y'all. I don't want to be naggy or be a troll or be complain-y. Because I NEVER had a problem with my race and have had great experiences with women.

But for once-- maybe (hopefully) the only time in my life...

I will say with certainty.

That I sympathize with our Indian comrades.

Because I swear-- there is some negative stigma attached to Indians (but only in some specific circumstances!!).

And I have felt the full force of this negative stigma tonight.

And I have never felt this before and never complained about this before and never will again. BUT. Please.

For this moment, this instant...

Let us please have some sympathy for our Indian comrades.

That is all.

Sup man .

Actually I am indian myself who never went outside India ,..so I really curious about the image and stigma regarding indian guys .

I have seen that in western pua forums like this ones and others ... There have been guys complaining about being indian and boy getting women .

So ... I just want to know about what women in your side generally think about indian men as ... I will be touring lot of western countries in future. So , it would be helpful to know the issues to easily bypass them .

 

[Chase]

@ElChe,

"I don't want to dance with him, he's Indian" -- literally the words of a woman at the bar today.

...

Because I swear-- there is some negative stigma attached to Indians (but only in some specific circumstances!!).

Any time there's a stigma, the first question you want to ask yourself is, "What does this group of people do that causes this stigma?"

The second question you want to ask is, "How do I differentiate myself from that stigma?"

It's actually a huge advantage if you are from a stigmatized group but can successfully differentiate yourself from the stigma. Differentiated men enjoy enormous bonuses with women.

(this doesn't apply so much to you, since you are not dealing with a stigma yourself per se... but just a general comment on dealing with stigmas)


@Spyce D,

So ... I just want to know about what women in your side generally think about indian men as ... I will be touring lot of western countries in future. So , it would be helpful to know the issues to easily bypass them .

You're asking the right question.

Most of the Indian men you will meet in the West possess a noticeably self-consciously superficiality about them. Very status conscious; very focused on presenting themselves as superior, know-it-alls, etc. If they are wrong about something, rather than be chill and humble and gracious about it, they will get defensive or try to one-up you or claim that you are incorrect. They are the consummate social ladder climbers. They tend to be extremely rigid in their worldviews, too; they are right, everyone else is wrong, and trying to talk with them about anything it is like your words just do not get through. People who don't share their background find all this behavior (know-it-all-ism, posturing, ladder climbing, rigidity of viewpoint, and so on) frustrating and off-putting, so you end up with these stigmas.

Some Indian guys are aware of the stigma, and self-aware enough to detect if/when they are doing it themselves and correct that behavior. The ones able to be aware enough of it to not be like the "stereotypical Indian" and instead be chill, cool, humble when it's appropriate, strong and confident without ladder climbing or status jockeying, open-minded and not so rigid, and so on, stand out a lot (and typically lay lots of tail).

If you can be like the latter guy instead of the former, you will absolutely slay overseas.

Chase

 

[Michael Chief]

I am of East Asian descent, so I have faced similar challenges in America. We're stereotyped as being less masculine in a multitude of ways. I have been rejected many times just for my race. I have also enjoyed many of the benefits @Chase was talking about by "differentiating myself from the stigma" in many ways.

In my observations, Indian men have it even harder. I don't know how it is in other Western countries, but it feels like the American impression of East Asians is a little more favorable compared to that of Indians. The stereotypes Indians have in the US seem to be somewhat more sexually invalidating, such as the perverted Indian men who hit on Western women on social media (show bobs and vegana, milk truck has arrived, etc.).

In terms of the average body type, or at least the perception of the average body type, most Indian men seem to be skinny-fat, which is probably one of the least attractive body types. Not surprising considering the high-carb low-protein nature of the Indian diet. East Asians have the stereotype of having less masculine bodies, too, but things like K-pop culture probably gave us a little boost in a way Bollywood never could for Indians. Fortunately, you can change your body.

The accent might be a big one. The Western perception is that accents that emphasize vowels and have less stress on consonants are sexier. Accents that emphasize consonants and shorten the vowels are a turn-off. This is why French is stereotyped to be the sexiest or most romantic language. I'm not sure if there seems to be a higher proportion of East Asians in the US without an Asian accent compared to Indians without an Indian accent, but the American psyche has been exposed to the Indian accent so much with even more negative associations via scammers from Indian call centers and such. Fortunately, you can change your accent. A lot of people who have never met me but have heard my voice assume I'm white.

I had an Indian fraternity brother in college who did well very with women. Culturally, you could not tell the difference between him and any other American. He was muscular. He had absolutely zero traces of an Indian accent. He had confidence. He was masculine. He was social and smooth; he had game. If you saw him or talked to him, you wouldn't even think of the word "Indian." He did better with girls than most of us. There is no reason to have sympathy for him.

 

[Adventurer]

I just spent one month in India, met a lot of girls there through dating apps. I agree with the sentiment of sympathy from OP, the dating market there is absolutely brutal for local guys. One girl (average looking) showed me her Bumble account... 11 000 likes in just under a week. And you thought apps were a sausage fest in the west

Though the stereotypes about Indian guys are overly negative, there is sadly some truth to it. Almost every girl I met here had some horror story to tell about the locals. My sample is a bit biased because at least some of them decided to match with a foreigner BECAUSE they had bad experiences ... But still, I heard a lot of creepy or disturbing stories

Some of their most common complaints :

-Being a threat for their physical safety (rape and physical violence against women is much more common in India than in the West)

-Being only interested in quick sex with zero subtility or intrigue (guys inviting them to their room in the dating app chat or asking for nudes after 2 messages, stuff like that)

-Misogyny, treating women like shit in general

-Being clingy, insecure, jealous and overprotective in relationships

-Being mama's boys who can't take a decision without their mother's approval

All of this sounds bad, but Chase is right about stereotypes. If I were Indian, I would immediately frame myself as being a normal, laidback and cool guy who has his shit together, is not a psychopath and has a good track record of positive interactions with women

 

[ElChe]

Thanks for the replies fellas. I woke up kinda worried that this post was in bad taste, but sometimes you gotta be real about how your race affects your social interactions. Cause what happened yesterday with that girl pissed me off so much (probably because when I tried telling her I was Mexican, she basically went like "ew, get away from me". I was in Florida for spring break a couple weeks ago and man... the women there were so different than these weirdo college chicks. But that's a whole different discussion.)

Anyway, on what I can tell are the perceptions of Indian men here...

Since this is a huge engineering and computer science school (and maybe a majority of people in these majors are Indian), I think the biggest stigma is just that the Indian students here are "nerds" who spend most of their time alone and studying.

The stuff @Michael Chief talked about, I can see that here a bit too. Lot of accents and people who are skinny fat lol (I like some of the Indian girls though )

Though I will say that all of the Indian people I've talked to have been mostly cool. I did sense that sort of "I'm always correct" energy that @Chase described a couple times, though. Like they don't ever make fun of themselves.

(I also was annoyed once when I was talking to this girl after a class and this Indian fella--who was otherwise cool-- kept butting into our conversation. This happened multiple times lol, even with another Indian dude).

So yeah... @Spyce D I think the way to combat this stigma, like everybody said, is to be confident and socially savvy and all the other basic stuff...

...and then maybe add in a touch of self awareness/self laughter (so that people can get comfortable joking around with you and not feel like they have to be super serious, but still respect you.)

One last thing-- I think in a lot of places in the west, these stigmas are way less prevalent.

Where I'm from in the US, it was a town of mostly white people and Mexicans. I think any Indian person there would be perceived as a cool outsider and there'd be less stigma. Other places are probably similar.

This school I'm at right now, there are just tons of Indians (and Asians) and a ton of them are in these hardcore STEM majors and are less socially savvy. And people here are already pretty judgy, so...

 

[DarkKnight]

Stereotyping is clearly a thing despite of what everyone says. I am seen generally as an attractive guy (it took some work), but it is really INCREDIBLY noticeable how some social groups respond very well to me, but other social groups even when attracted are a bit more apprehensive due to social frame clashes. This is not me saying that it is impossible to get girls from a certain background blah blah, this is not true. But the hassle it takes with certain social groups is more than others where you get readily accepted, hell pampered even in my case.

I have also experienced how these dynamics tend to fluctuate through the years, like Micheal Chief mentioned, a certain tv show becomes popular, and girls start to become more interested into you because you fit that kind of guy lol.

Sometimes when I travel to other countries I can really sense the shift and sometimes it has been quite shocking. So environment and social frame is important.

I do feel empathy for Indian guys, but they also REALLY reinforce stereotypes and it will probably take them quite some time to get rid of this impression.

 

[Spyce D]

After talking to some of the folks irl about this ... I have realised that There is a lot going on ... rather than just superficial things .


Anyways , I won't comment on that cuz this forum is not to discuss those things .

 

[raiden]

The way I understood it, ethnicity is another fundamental just like height and like any other passive fundamental, it will lead to fewer approach invitations than if the fundamental were better. So the would be seducer in this situation will be worse off. A woman who might have given him an approach invitation if he didn't have that poor fundamental (e.g. a different ethnicity) might not give him one, so he starts out almost on the back foot. This is related to a discussion I have with my friend who runs approach invitation game most of the time. For the small (or 0) number of approach invitations I get, I wouldn't be able to run that game effectively.

 

[DarkKnight]

The way I understood it, ethnicity is another fundamental just like height and like any other passive fundamental

it will lead to fewer approach invitations than if the fundamental were bette

I find this a very dangerous way of thinking, because if you think like this you simply assume your ethnicity is inferior.

Guys please, asian, Indian, Namek or from planet Orion. Show some pride.

 

[Spyce D]

The way I understood it, ethnicity is another fundamental just like height and like any other passive fundamental, it will lead to fewer approach invitations than if the fundamental were better. So the would be seducer in this situation will be worse off. A woman who might have given him an approach invitation if he didn't have that poor fundamental (e.g. a different ethnicity) might not give him one, so he starts out almost on the back foot. This is related to a discussion I have with my friend who runs approach invitation game most of the time. For the small (or 0) number of approach invitations I get, I wouldn't be able to run that game effectively.

Start reading indian history from non Marxist authors , William Durant and what ancient Greeks , Chinese used to write about india etc.

Also YouTube about indian men white/x women couples , there are plenty .

There are plenty of foreign women who toured india and banged local guys / work as high end escorts ( Russian ) for the rich locals.

This inferiority complex will go away.

Side note : to my westen Bros ,... Since the time of our independence ... Leftists , Marxists have had a strong hold in our education system . And you are also experiencing what they are doing in your countries too . So , you can expect what they have done in mine .

 

[Samsara]

Some of their most common complaints :

-Being a threat for their physical safety (rape and physical violence against women is much more common in India than in the West)

-Being only interested in quick sex with zero subtility or intrigue (guys inviting them to their room in the dating app chat or asking for nudes after 2 messages, stuff like that)

-Misogyny, treating women like shit in general

-Being clingy, insecure, jealous and overprotective in relationships

-Being mama's boys who can't take a decision without their mother's approval

All of this sounds bad, but Chase is right about stereotypes. If I were Indian, I would immediately frame myself as being a normal, laidback and cool guy who has his shit together, is not a psychopath and has a good track record of positive interactions with women

@Adventurer
Dude, your statement about rape being more common in India than the west is Completely wrong, you need look at these by percentages not actual numbers, you seem to forget India has more people than any other western country, and the rape percentages in India are the least on the planet when compared to the West.

All the other complaints you talk about are common in other countries as well, it's not something that is endemic to India,
I ask you to read the material in this link and this link with an open mind, then we can talk again unless I GET BANNED here FOR TALKING THE TRUTH.
No country in the world has gone through what India had to go through

Guys please, asian, Indian, Namek or from planet Orion. Show some pride.

@DarkKnight
I know you mean well, there has been a consistent attempt to eradicate, modify the Indian culture for more than a thousand years (1000+ years) it's happening even now but a lot more subltly, although the attempts have been unsuccessful it has caused plenty of damages and changes in more impressionable people, most people when they talk about India have no idea about the barbarism INDIA had to endure. I can assure you INDIANS ARE PROUD OF OUR CULTURE, OUR CULTURE WAS THE MOST GLORIOUS CULTURE ON THE PLANET and every empire wanted a piece of it.

I'm ~200% Mexican.

I'm a raw, pure, authentic Mexican through and through.

But Every. Single. Person. here...

Thinks I'm Indian...!!!

@ElChe The entire South America has forgotten the several millennia old connections with India, Our Indian Epics dating back to about 12,000 BC talk about these connections. This bond is ancient, we fail to see this bond, but others see it.

You're asking the right question.

Most of the Indian men you will meet in the West possess a noticeably self-consciously superficiality about them. Very status conscious; very focused on presenting themselves as superior, know-it-alls, etc. If they are wrong about something, rather than be chill and humble and gracious about it, they will get defensive or try to one-up you or claim that you are incorrect. They are the consummate social ladder climbers. They tend to be extremely rigid in their worldviews, too; they are right, everyone else is wrong, and trying to talk with them about anything it is like your words just do not get through. People who don't share their background find all this behavior (know-it-all-ism, posturing, ladder climbing, rigidity of viewpoint, and so on) frustrating and off-putting, so you end up with these stigmas.

Some Indian guys are aware of the stigma, and self-aware enough to detect if/when they are doing it themselves and correct that behavior. The ones able to be aware enough of it to not be like the "stereotypical Indian" and instead be chill, cool, humble when it's appropriate, strong and confident without ladder climbing or status jockeying, open-minded and not so rigid, and so on, stand out a lot (and typically lay lots of tail).

If you can be like the latter guy instead of the former, you will absolutely slay overseas.

Chase

@Chase
I think what you say is true, and it is good feedback, has to be taken with a pinch of salt though cause I can see it being misused, and Indians are wary of non-Indians advising them on anything, because of our past experiences with them (1000 + years of invasions)

What you are saying can also be double edged sword, this can be misused, this is similar to labelling someone as "argumentative" irrespective of whether he is or not and when he fights back against the mis labelling people jump in to say exactly.

With the right people with good Intentions, I whole heartedly agree with you.

In my observations, Indian men have it even harder. I don't know how it is in other Western countries, but it feels like the American impression of East Asians is a little more favorable compared to that of Indians. The stereotypes Indians have in the US seem to be somewhat more sexually invalidating, such as the perverted Indian men who hit on Western women on social media (show bobs and vegana, milk truck has arrived, etc.).

@Michael Chief
I'm not saying Indians do not have a lot to improve, true there is much to improve, but what I want others to Understand is that, 1000 + years of invasions has changed the psyche of India radically, it is going to take trust and time to change that image. We know media always portray a narrative, this narrative has never painted India well.

The accent might be a big one. The Western perception is that accents that emphasize vowels and have less stress on consonants are sexier. Accents that emphasize consonants and shorten the vowels are a turn-off. This is why French is stereotyped to be the sexiest or most romantic language. I'm not sure if there seems to be a higher proportion of East Asians in the US without an Asian accent compared to Indians without an Indian accent, but the American psyche has been exposed to the Indian accent so much with even more negative associations via scammers from Indian call centers and such. Fortunately, you can change your accent. A lot of people who have never met me but have heard my voice assume I'm white.

I had an Indian fraternity brother in college who did well very with women. Culturally, you could not tell the difference between him and any other American. He was muscular. He had absolutely zero traces of an Indian accent. He had confidence. He was masculine. He was social and smooth; he had game. If you saw him or talked to him, you wouldn't even think of the word "Indian." He did better with girls than most of us. There is no reason to have sympathy for him.

What you are basically saying is take an Indian, remove the Indianess or the Indian culture in him, aka make him "American" then the woman will accept him.

If an Indian wants to do well with woman outside of India, what you suggest might be the easiest way.

I ask you to go through this link and this link

 

[Police dog]

What you are basically saying is take an Indian, remove the Indianess or the Indian culture in him, aka make him "American" then the woman will accept him.

Welcome to the world we live in.
But first of all define “Indianess”.
You can complain all day long about how unfair and xenophobic that is. But that’s what it is. It goes same for pretty much everything else, it doesn’t mean you hav to do it to get success but it strongly limits your opportunities. Since you are in the CS like I was when I was in college, I will give you an analogy - can someone self taught with udemy get a job at google? Absolutely. Does it actually happen? Not really. When you hear those crazy stories it usually boils down to knowing someone in that company or switching internally, etc. 99.9% have done traditional route with CS education and years of experience or internship at that company.
Same here. You can be fat, poor, have bad teeth, live with your parents and still get girls. We all heard stories like this. But in the real world it doesn’t really happen in any significant amount. Even when it does happen you pay for it with tons of missed opportunities that you didn’t have to miss.
So yeah, the less foreign you are perceived the more success you will have. Even with Indian girls, lol. I been with some because I am really attracted to them and all of them complained about Indian men, not because of looks or lack of masculinity or whatever, but simply because of controlling behavior, misogynistic views and stuff like that. I am not implying that all Indian men are like that, I never hanged out with any of them as I am only interested in Indian girls, but that seems to be a common complaint. If that’s part of “Indianess” it’s definitely an obstacle.

 

[gameboy]

Being a foreigner is always a two-edged sword. I live in a southern European country, but was born in a northern European one. There is no racial stigma whatsoever, and historically, our two countries got along fine most of the time.

On one hand, some girls from here are actually attracted to foreigners because of the "exotic bonus", or because they are interested in the language or the culture.

On the other hand... it's still tough! First, there is the language barrier. Even after decades here and lots of studying and socializing, I still have an accent, talk and think differently, and sometimes have trouble communicating with people from here. It's easier in a one-on-one conversation, harder in groups.

And then there is all the cultural stuff. I've had several girlfriends and countless flings with girls from here. In my opinion, they are some of the hottest girls in the world . But you wouldn't believe how many misunderstandings and even fights can be caused by some stupid cultural difference that I wasn't aware of before. I can only imagine how much harder it must be for cultures as different as India and America!

So, my sympathies to anyone dating as a foreigner. I can only recommend to try and be flexible and adapt to the local culture. There's something to be said to be proud of your origins, too, but if you decide to live in a different country, I believe it's on you to integrate into the society as best you can.

 

[Police dog]

Being a foreigner is always a two-edged sword. I live in a southern European country, but was born in a northern European one. There is no racial stigma whatsoever, and historically, our two countries got along fine most of the time.

On one hand, some girls from here are actually attracted to foreigners because of the "exotic bonus", or because they are interested in the language or the culture.

On the other hand... it's still tough! First, there is the language barrier. Even after decades here and lots of studying and socializing, I still have an accent, talk and think differently, and sometimes have trouble communicating with people from here. It's easier in a one-on-one conversation, harder in groups.

And then there is all the cultural stuff. I've had several girlfriends and countless flings with girls from here. In my opinion, they are some of the hottest girls in the world . But you wouldn't believe how many misunderstandings and even fights can be caused by some stupid cultural difference that I wasn't aware of before. I can only imagine how much harder it must be for cultures as different as India and America!

So, my sympathies to anyone dating as a foreigner. I can only recommend to try and be flexible and adapt to the local culture. There's something to be said to be proud of your origins, too, but if you decide to live in a different country, I believe it's on you to integrate into the society as best you can.

Never thought Germans/Swedes would have problems in Greece/Spain

 

[raiden]

Start reading indian history from non Marxist authors , William Durant and what ancient Greeks , Chinese used to write about india etc.

Also YouTube about indian men white/x women couples , there are plenty .

There are plenty of foreign women who toured india and banged local guys / work as high end escorts ( Russian ) for the rich locals.

This inferiority complex will go away.

Side note : to my westen Bros ,... Since the time of our independence ... Leftists , Marxists have had a strong hold in our education system . And you are also experiencing what they are doing in your countries too . So , you can expect what they have done in mine .

But is this an inferiority complex or an actual measured thing, that certain ethnic groups get fewer approach invitations? It sounds in the OP like the woman wouldn't have given an AI because of the guy's ethnicity.

 

[gameboy]

Never thought Germans/Swedes would have problems in Greece/Spain

Not saying I'm having problems. But dating in my own culture is just easier

But who wants "easy", anyway? Hehe

 

[Police dog]

But who wants "easy", anyway? Hehe

right here

 

[Spyce D]

If that’s part of “Indianess” it’s definitely an obstacle.

I can clarify a bit about certain things here.


In west , if a guy from India has to migrate ...most likely he has to get into college there , work 3 jobs , pay rent , send money back home ( or not ) , try to make a life for himself cuz

1. His parents sold their land to send him for a better future .
2. His parents took loan which he repay while working , studying .

And due to indian economy , rupee being weak against dollar ... Life is tough for indian students there ( a lot of my friends , relatives are there so I know it from them )

So , this leads to them being more competitive ( social ladder ) , more nerdy otherwise they won't have a job and will be sent back home .

And those who manage to get a job and marry ... End up raising kids with these same principles cuz this lead them to success .

Hence , emergence of stereotypes like these .


Anyways , indians don't go there as refugees ( so you don't find many brawny Indians in the west )

In my ethnic region , I am 174 cm but still feel short .

Lot of guys are into gym culture here but only the nerdy guys or really rich guys go to west.

Nerdy guys become the stereotype while rich folks become the cool Indian exception .

Anyways , what I am saying is you are only getting a small and selected sample of indian men ... Which due to criteria of migration ( most of them go to study there and have to work a lot ) .... Is creating a lot of stereotypes which are true but not for all the whole nation .



By the way , I don't want any of @indianracetroll shit .

I just wanted to clarify that there is lot of shit going on ... Which if further discussed won't be productive from seduction pov and the ethos of this forum

 

[Spyce D]

But is this an inferiority complex or an actual measured thing, that certain ethnic groups get fewer approach invitations? It sounds in the OP like the woman wouldn't have given an AI because of the guy's ethnicity.

Adapt to the market , that's all there is.


Well , I can't wait to visit west now cuz to me it feels like a worthy challenge .


Hopefully , by that time I will be advanced and with my exotic factor will help too .