The Traffic Light Method is weak and gay. Respect senior members
- Thread starter Chase
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It’s the current climate. People get mad when other people have different opinions, and people treat opinions like facts. If you can’t have a discussion you can’t learn from each other.
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Funny how all you trolls are "high status guys with decent income". Yet you only spend your time quarreling with actually competent people, derail threads or post gibberish. And hide behind total anonymity. Well there is a solid moderator majority to ban you now, so bye bye.
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A saying out there in sports and even in business goes that the best players are rarely the best coaches. In fact, the best coaches are usually those who had some experience but were more middle of the road when it comes to their player days. Same in business, the best managers in say sales are not the best salespeople making millions for the company, they are often more middle of the road or at times upper tier.
What people miss and I even see it in this thread is that coaching is different than doing. A part of it is that I feel like good coaches, good leaders, and in this case, good mentors, have to almost have this way of putting their messaging and tactic in such a way that people get it. The best players cannot always tell you HOW they got there, part of it is genetic and things you cannot teach and coach.
Same with a lot of "naturals", I feel like aspects of their personality can rub off on you but they cannot really teach you to be a natural. So when Chase talks about how senior members and mentors get frustrated, I think both parties can be at fault at times. In one way, the newbie can listen better and not argue as much. On the other, maybe the senior member needs to get a thicker skin, lose the god complex, and understand what is going on.
Even more true...perhaps they should not even be talking to newbies or giving opinions on anything. Instead, they should be posting field reports or past stories of how they got laid so the newbie can understand that way instead of argue. Even if the newbie argues or engages in a discussion, it is more "oh I see you did THIS here and THAT there, how? Why did it work? That has never worked for me" instead of a "look here punk, looks don't mater and you can get any girl you want".
I notice Chase does this in his articles, he actually shares personal anecdotes every step of the way to tie into the point he is trying to make. Sadly though, I do think that some guys who are immensely successful are better off telling the story of their success than coaching.
You are better off seeing Messi play and pull off shit on the pitch than hear him talk to you about how you can't dribble.
What people miss and I even see it in this thread is that coaching is different than doing. A part of it is that I feel like good coaches, good leaders, and in this case, good mentors, have to almost have this way of putting their messaging and tactic in such a way that people get it. The best players cannot always tell you HOW they got there, part of it is genetic and things you cannot teach and coach.
Same with a lot of "naturals", I feel like aspects of their personality can rub off on you but they cannot really teach you to be a natural. So when Chase talks about how senior members and mentors get frustrated, I think both parties can be at fault at times. In one way, the newbie can listen better and not argue as much. On the other, maybe the senior member needs to get a thicker skin, lose the god complex, and understand what is going on.
Even more true...perhaps they should not even be talking to newbies or giving opinions on anything. Instead, they should be posting field reports or past stories of how they got laid so the newbie can understand that way instead of argue. Even if the newbie argues or engages in a discussion, it is more "oh I see you did THIS here and THAT there, how? Why did it work? That has never worked for me" instead of a "look here punk, looks don't mater and you can get any girl you want".
I notice Chase does this in his articles, he actually shares personal anecdotes every step of the way to tie into the point he is trying to make. Sadly though, I do think that some guys who are immensely successful are better off telling the story of their success than coaching.
You are better off seeing Messi play and pull off shit on the pitch than hear him talk to you about how you can't dribble.
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Sure OP.
But an asshole is still an asshole. I wish this thread ends here.
XD
But an asshole is still an asshole. I wish this thread ends here.
XD
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Yeah well, some assholes get laid, A LOT.
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How long you want to continue this thread brah? Common man, start a new post. -.-
And I chip in if I can.
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Cannot believe I missed this.
It is like this in the workplace as I have seen happen many times, manager gets mad at someone? Others feel the need to suddenly pounce on them, funny how nature plays out even in the most common of interactions.
You quickly learn how little friends you really have once your fortunes fall, you also learn fast of how people really felt about you but were at times too shy to say because they saw that your status was higher. I think this is why naturals and guys that always had it easy in some avenue or the other are so oblivious to the worst of humanity, to them, everyone is a nice angel.
It's a challenge for sure and a catch 22 situation here.
Anger senior experienced people and irritate them? Well you lose wisdom.
Give them too much power and the ability to run free? Create a toxic environment where its my way or the highway and opposing views cannot flourish.
I even see it myself with the way senior members have bullied and attacked younger members, even mocking them.
I think if we truly do value the talent we get from other places, let them write articles, do Q&As with the leadership here, and let them be heard on a megaphone instead of having them waste time on petty forum politics. Let's face it, deep down these dudes to some degree do want some respect for their work and experience, why not give it to them that way?
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^ very good and accurate observation... I have seen this in work places... Oh pry besides the fact that you went through a period of repetitive posts and weird rationalizations, that does not negate you present and future observations or contributions...
All the things we experienced in this forum i have seen before in nextasf and contributed to the destruction of it... If we keep repeating history then what is the point... I personally can call you out and tell you to fuck off, and be totally cool with you the same day... Some posters keep grudges i never understood this.
Everything that is going on as of late with chase i seen it before, the thing and the goal of this forum was to be different from the other forum, i get a little chuckle cause i am seeing the same exact patterns(actually worst and faster)... So my intention with the above post (i did similar posts in the former forum and nobody pay attention but double down, was just an attempt to stop repeating history)...
I personally try to stay away from groups and ideologies and remain neutral... I can tell some of the seniors regardless of rep, friendship or fame to fuck off and be cool be them next day(if they do not want to be cool fine too), i can tell you to fuck off and be cool with you... However, if a moderator or top seducer is breaking the rules, they should be held accountable, just as you should as you got held accountable when you wrote your repetitive posts whining about _____
I should also be held accountable and get the same consequences as you, if i break any of the rules even if i am dealing with ______ lesser poster... that is all i am saying. With that being said i think chase is taking steps in the right direction.
And this post already made the point is getting derailed and repetitive...
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Yeah I did, it was a bad habit and I've fallen into a very negative mindset in 2020, it was before even COVID and plenty of it related to life outside of pickup. Moving on though, I think in the end we all have to see this for what it is, a community. The danger of seeing it as a corporation (given that I just quit a stereotypical cut-throat corporate culture full of type A fresh grads) is that it does force you to see it as game of thrones and gaming the system than getting the value out of a fraternal community.
In the end, we're all really here to get laid and in my situation, enjoy the process more. We just happen to have come across a Thinktank for it that most guys would not.
When you add your rich experiences and value, the people speak for you. The members who have earned my respect here didn't need to argue me into it, their material was so good that I had to give them respect. Take Teevster for example, we butted heads many times but I'd be lying if I said his nightlife stuff was not insightful.
I find that once you contribute good material and drop the entitlement mindset, people just flow with you. Plus, debates are healthy in my view, you don't really have fun unless there is a debate. Note I said debate, not argument, attack the point, not the person.
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@Bacchus
No need to get personal here or make it about each other.
How much great athletes care about how crowds that see them perform even if none of them perform on that level?
How much do great musicians care about crowds that show up to their concerts even if none of them have any talent themselves?
I'd say, to some extent, they do. Same with dating coaches and seducers, I think the ones who bother to join a community like this, post content, and even post on this forum do care to some degree how they are perceived. If they didn't, they would barely join or post.
You say respect, I get that, if you accomplish something you need respect. Even in a cutthroat office environment that I was a part of and there was a strict social structure, whenever a manager we gave him respect at first. When he showed he had no idea of what he was doing, led the team down the wrong path, and was less knowledgable about the trade compared to someone who had done the groundwork but was working under him? We said fuck it and simply treated him as a manager than a leader, he had compliance but he did not have respect.
Someone who is senior and comes with a nice title will always get initial respect, their words will initially carry more weight, and people will listen. When that same person is throwing their weight around (which I've been guilty of at times but I'll actually admit it), talking down to people, cannot successfully defend their point, and then feels like others should just listen to them because of their rank? Well they will lose that respect.
If som higher prestige members came here, shared their stories, gave feedback on field report sections, and showed that decency to newbie members? I doubt they'd be butting heads much with anyone.
No need to get personal here or make it about each other.
How much great athletes care about how crowds that see them perform even if none of them perform on that level?
How much do great musicians care about crowds that show up to their concerts even if none of them have any talent themselves?
I'd say, to some extent, they do. Same with dating coaches and seducers, I think the ones who bother to join a community like this, post content, and even post on this forum do care to some degree how they are perceived. If they didn't, they would barely join or post.
You say respect, I get that, if you accomplish something you need respect. Even in a cutthroat office environment that I was a part of and there was a strict social structure, whenever a manager we gave him respect at first. When he showed he had no idea of what he was doing, led the team down the wrong path, and was less knowledgable about the trade compared to someone who had done the groundwork but was working under him? We said fuck it and simply treated him as a manager than a leader, he had compliance but he did not have respect.
Someone who is senior and comes with a nice title will always get initial respect, their words will initially carry more weight, and people will listen. When that same person is throwing their weight around (which I've been guilty of at times but I'll actually admit it), talking down to people, cannot successfully defend their point, and then feels like others should just listen to them because of their rank? Well they will lose that respect.
If som higher prestige members came here, shared their stories, gave feedback on field report sections, and showed that decency to newbie members? I doubt they'd be butting heads much with anyone.
I think once you've read a few LR's by someone, you've kind of read them all, so I don't think there should be pressure on people to keep sharing them, personally. I like to think I could emulate anyone's game here now lol (but what is 'advanced' in one persons eyes, might not be what another school of thought considers advanced. Most PUA's consider themselves and their methods 'advanced', even though they all differ greatly)
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Bah. What we are talking about here is not seniors generally being bad coaches, it is seniors being bad coaches for people with learning disabilities. You know, in school the best teachers for normal kids are not the best teachers for kids with various learning disabilities or problematic behavior. These are even often separated so that the problematic kids will not destroy the learning environment for the normal kids, which really serves nobody as the curriculum for the normal kids will not be internalized by the problematic kids anyway. You see exactly the same dynamic here.
You are a perfect example of this, you are still bitching about race after being 6 years on this forum and complain about the management and seniors, despite you have been treated very leniently (you are still here and some people still give you advice). Also you argue and complain about lacking respect when people point out the actions you need to do in order to progress.
Meanwhile guys like Klimax and Chrance go and do what they are been told by the seniors.
But yeah, a lot of the seniors here are not good coaches for the difficult students, this is to a large degree because there is no reward. That you have a passion for teaching bright students does not imply a passion for teaching resistant or bad students.
And, very importantly, most of the seniors have no formal or informal training in dealing with severe PTSD, autism, severe depression, highly resistant guys etc - all these are specializations within clinical psychology. I have actually told a couple of self-professed autists here that they can't expect to internalize PU in their current state and must seek help elsewhere. I also routinely tell people to go to TRE coaches as they are better guides on practically treat PTSD. Hardcases can simply not expect randoms on the internetz to be able to solve such things, it may require years of work to even get slightly better.
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I sum up your situation like this: Covid-19 fucked your head over. Which is why when I was still a mod actually sympathized more with you, then you actually may think!
Which is ALSO why I know mods and chase are not dropping the banhammer left and right.
It is because they sympathize. They know Covid is making people go nuts.
And hence I think it is correct to expect from others to sympathize with mods. They too feel the Covid 19, and therefore other ALSO have the right to vent, without being called disrespectful and so on. Same goes for veteran members.
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First of all, learning disabilities and past PTSD is some serious serious shit, let's not use it in a way to insult others. Most importantly...
I wanted to bring this to the attention of @Mike Silvertree @Chase @Franco @Hue and several mods and even @Teevster who is a more senior member here. First of all, I get it, @Carousel is probably bros with some guys here, knows them well, and has earned his respect elsewhere due to his actions. Going back to what I said, respect is initially given, but I wanted to point out this very action and why I think most sensible people will find this unacceptable, this is what I am talking about and I think maybe even @Skills was referring to.
Look at the tone for the past page of this thread, even when we disagree, we disagree on the point itself and say why it would not work. Sure Chase even brought up my past but he did it in a way which was more constructive and said why certain things just cannot work anymore. Notice how it is Carousel making it personal when most of us are offering our own ideas and experiences on how things can be improved, none of us did this on the past page. All that aside, it wasn't even needed, I never replied to this guy or quoted him or even said anything to him, instead he comes out like a pit viper to personally attack me and stir the pot.
Now Carousel had little to do with my personal development on this forum given that he joined in 2019 but here is what I feel he could have done differently here. He could have said:
"Look Oh Pry, based on what I read of your posts, this forum cannot help every guy in your situation because of the amount of resources it would take. Even now I notice that you post a lot about race and it can slowly become a drag on the forum at times. I honestly think that perhaps your time is spent better right now on continuing to do other things than talk about senior forum members and talk about race too much."
Notice how differently that comes off compared to how he put it here. How he puts it in the quotes comes off as downright disrespectful and condescending, especially when I did nothing to personally provoke or target this man. It just comes off as the tone of someone with a vendetta and an axe to grind than a genuine person who wants to help, offer resolutions, or just give advice. Compare this to how Chase would put his advice and feedback, just the tone here.
I meant it when I said it and a member called me out in a passive aggressive way on my thread, a lot of us (myself included) can use help with the way we word things.
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Insult? Pointing out that seniors here are generally not qualified, rewarded or have the patient personality required to deal with such things is a statement of fact. This requires an education in clinical psychology or special pedagogy, which I am sure easily can take 10 years. This is a very different skillset than spending 10 years in clubs or streets to excel at PU. Probably you also have to be a rather agreeable person in order to deal with such people and I can tell you that a lot of good PUAs are not. And the therapists are on an hourly government salary while we are not.
You did project your own inability to take advice upon everybody else here, as the fault of the advanced guys (quoted in post #123).
Meanwhile these very same guys are able to teach non-resistant guys, in fact people pay hundreds of dollars for coaching with many of them.
Actually you are illustrating my point perfectly. Let me tell you are story:
A guy on ASF Norway which Teevster also knows was from Afghanistan and had fled to Norway from the fucking TALIBAN. He spoke broken Norwegian and did not have a high level of social calibration. At some point he complained about race and Norwegian chics. I told him that this was simply bullshit and that he could see proof of the otherwise if he simply had a look at couples in the main street of Oslo.
After that this guy NEVER complained about race again.
While you from what I understand have grown up in the West and spent 6 years here on GC and probably haven't experienced war, starvation or poverty?
So yes, the approach that worked perfectly on an objectively much less privileged guy, however without any learning disabilities only serves to get you to whine even more and tag a bunch of mods for my "disrespectful behavior".
This creates a problem because the correct approach to guys who do not have any such learning disabilities is exactly to point out where their mental models are wrong and what actions they need to take in order to get to the next level, while this just serves to piss you off.
PS: I can very well step down from being a mod. It probably won't make me more diplomatic
PPS: You clearly do not take the advice from the diplomatic guys either, or took advice when the forum had fewer seniors. We from Nextasf only arrived a couple of months ago and you signed up in Jan 2014, thus there are still nearly 6 years of race whining from you.
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You know, I was going to actually go down the usual road but I kind of do want to see how this whole thing plays out now. To anyone who is impartial, the whole scenario and how it played out is clear. We were discussing the situation in a peaceful and cool manner but I was wrongly attacked out of the blue, something which has been done to other members as well and I hope the leadership, if impartial, looks into.
What I will say is that I already see divisions forming and people picking sides, I don't want to participate in something like that. I really do not get why for those of us who genuinely want to get better, so much time, paragraphs, and posts are wasted on attacking each other (even for things done in the past).
Proof is in the pudding, just read the past couple of pages, look who is dragging it into petty attacks targeting members and who is actually trying to just have a discussion.
What I will say is that I already see divisions forming and people picking sides, I don't want to participate in something like that. I really do not get why for those of us who genuinely want to get better, so much time, paragraphs, and posts are wasted on attacking each other (even for things done in the past).
Proof is in the pudding, just read the past couple of pages, look who is dragging it into petty attacks targeting members and who is actually trying to just have a discussion.
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You are anything but peaceful. You attempt to dictate the discussion here in order for it to suit your sensibilities, much like the current generation snowflake university students want trigger warnings and safe-spaces to be shielded from facts or speakers that offend them. Here in Norway we have even gotten some rules that teachers must "respect" the kids - how is this even to be interpreted?
Yesterday Bacchus pointed out in a totally calm way that you prefer to talk about your problems rather than act. You called this an "insult".
Maybe you should go somewhere else if your psyche can't even handle somebody pointing out what you are doing wrong, or not doing at all.
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Little-known fact, but I taught junior high and high school for a few months some years back.
The school I taught at was a boarding school with horrible disciplinary problems. Its classes were made up of 85% rich families' neglected children and 15% transfer students from poor areas. Most of the transfer students were not just years behind in education, but actually illiterate. They would do things like get into fistfights in the middle of my classroom. The principle wouldn't do anything so I had to resolve all discipline problems myself.
Even once I'd settled the worst of it down (and I eventually got some of the troublemakers on my side enough that they actually went from interrupting me and causing problems to helping me keep the rest of the class in line... which was rewarding, I will say), the difference in education between the two groups of students was so vast I was in effect teaching two classes simultaneously. Which cut my effectiveness as a teacher in half, at least.
I had some very bright, eager, wiling students in my classes, and I always felt bad for those kids. I'd try to come up with extra assignments for them, but they'd have it all done with time to spare anyway, while the worst-off kids would still be struggling with the first part of the task, sucking up too much of my time.
Two months in I had had enough of this, and told the school to get me a replacement, and that I'd give them a month before I left.
I liked teaching the students who wanted to learn, and paid attention, and did as asked (or at least tried). Even the kids who caused trouble at first, then switched it up and became my enforcers -- I liked those kids. Actually, those were the kids I felt worst about leaving, because I knew the regular good students would flourish with any decent teacher, but I didn't know if the next teacher would be able to command the problem kids' loyalty/affection like that.
But the illiterate kids, the ones who just did not or could not listen to what I told them, who would not complete the assignments, I just could not keep dealing with it. I couldn't handle it. Could not tell myself what the point of me being there was, when I had so many other things to do in my life.
So I left, and they brought in a tough ultra disciplinarian guy to replace me.
From what I heard, the kids all hated him, but he got them into order.
So I guess there's that.
Anyway, I don't know what I'm saying here, other than that the point Carousel makes, while you may not like hearing it, is not some thing he is just pulling out of the air. This is a real thing, with very difficult or unwilling students spoiling class for everybody else.
Sometimes, also, driving off the good teachers that the good students, and even some of the formerly problematic students, wanted to learn from.
Chase