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how can this be reversed
The Traffic Light Method is weak and gay. Respect senior members
- Thread starter Chase
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@Ree,
So far as I can tell, civility is directly tied to economic realities.
When times are getting better, people gradually become more polite. See the "politining" of the peoples of East Asia as their societies have grown more opulent. In China, which has advanced rapidly over only a few decades, the difference in manners between those who are 20-something and those who are 50-something is stark. The younger generation is so much more polite and better behaved.
When times have been economically stable for a long time, people achieve a kind of stable level of civility. Manners can stay roughly within the same range for long periods of time.
However, when economics are in decline, a general malaise of uneasiness and desperation settles itself into the minds of men. In the United States, economics and manners have both been in decline since the 1960s or so (it's dressed up with fancy numbers, but real wages have been stagnant or fallen since 1980, and 100% of job growth between the years 2000 and 2014 went to immigrants -- 17 million Americans joined the workforce during this time, as jobs for natives fell by over 100,000... that is a lot of long-term unemployed who don't show up on official unemployment numbers [which in the United States exclude anyone jobless for over half a year; U.S. unemployment numbers are actually only "who's been unemployed 6 months or less" numbers]). In the U.K. I suspect it's been longer. The U.S. economy peaked in 1950-1960, and that not coincidentally also seems to be when civility was at its highest (compared to, say, the 1930s, or now).
If you want people to be civil, put them in a society where things are looking up... and they don't feel like the ground they're standing on is shrinking, consciously or subconsciously, and start fighting with others around them for a bigger piece of a shrinking pie.
Chase
So far as I can tell, civility is directly tied to economic realities.
When times are getting better, people gradually become more polite. See the "politining" of the peoples of East Asia as their societies have grown more opulent. In China, which has advanced rapidly over only a few decades, the difference in manners between those who are 20-something and those who are 50-something is stark. The younger generation is so much more polite and better behaved.
When times have been economically stable for a long time, people achieve a kind of stable level of civility. Manners can stay roughly within the same range for long periods of time.
However, when economics are in decline, a general malaise of uneasiness and desperation settles itself into the minds of men. In the United States, economics and manners have both been in decline since the 1960s or so (it's dressed up with fancy numbers, but real wages have been stagnant or fallen since 1980, and 100% of job growth between the years 2000 and 2014 went to immigrants -- 17 million Americans joined the workforce during this time, as jobs for natives fell by over 100,000... that is a lot of long-term unemployed who don't show up on official unemployment numbers [which in the United States exclude anyone jobless for over half a year; U.S. unemployment numbers are actually only "who's been unemployed 6 months or less" numbers]). In the U.K. I suspect it's been longer. The U.S. economy peaked in 1950-1960, and that not coincidentally also seems to be when civility was at its highest (compared to, say, the 1930s, or now).
If you want people to be civil, put them in a society where things are looking up... and they don't feel like the ground they're standing on is shrinking, consciously or subconsciously, and start fighting with others around them for a bigger piece of a shrinking pie.
Chase
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thanks for your wisdom as always,
it might seem crazy but I am trying to build my own country.(think jim jones but without the craziness)
It is very important for me that My citizens be "nice",
,Kenyans are generally very corrupt ,superstitious and generally mean,but now that I think about it people who live in the upmarket areas are generally more civil,I bet that middle americans are more civil than people from inner cities too,right?
I try changing the people on my farm, but they are set in their ways,me being nice to them just results in them trying to take advantage of me.
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I am very impressed by this empathy,whenever the mods are rude to me,this is what really fills me with indignation ,very interesting
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I know Im late to the party,but damn this is very inspiring,I had never heard about this traffic lights thing,but reading this I think I may have been guilty of giving up too quickly
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there it is,man i really needed this,this is exactly why i lurk these boards,hoping to get a gem like this,I have often gotten into conflict when I go to new arenas,because of coming from a small pond where I was a big fish,when I go to a new pond and Im treated like a small fish I trembled with indignation,turns out all along I was wrong
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im ashamed to admit i would have done the exact same thing you would have donelol nah second girl was no doubt a red (in the sense we've been talking about). There ain't no "well ackshually" about it lol. But you will not deny that it was down to persistence and a whole lot of luck, right?. Rather than this "advanced game" it takes to SNL reds we keep hearing about.
For sure. I'm gonna stop saying you cant SNL reds from now on. If you wanna go for it, hey bro more power to you lol. Cause me personally, I wouldve been outta there and in a cab to another bar, the second you noticed the club had nothing better to offer besides this red. I ain't wasting my night haha
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I'm trying to merge this. On one hand, I see abundance, Chase. But you came from tyre store. For me, i am still doing that blue collar work from time to time.
I still remember who I was, if that makes sense.
My question is the advertising versus reality. The mental part vs reality part. My client recently ask me about this, and we talk about the struggles of white collar vs blue collar when we don't have money.
Super different experiences from both of us although I am now going into white collar work.
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@Ree,
Oh yeah. I'd love to do that too.
Of course there is always the question of "Even if you somehow develop a big enough base to pull that off, how do you not end up like Muammar Gaddafi?"
Guess you've just got to race for nukes ASAP and be an Iran or a North Korea if you're small. China and Russia both made out okay as countries outside "The System"... though China much more so than Russia.
Or you could just be a satellite of the Western system. But they don't always treat their dependencies so nicely...
City-folk in general tend to be time-pressed, stressed, and short. So yes, in general.
American inner cities also tend to be high crime impoverished areas, due to government housing projects (which allow impoverished individuals to live in locations that would naturally be very expensive parts of town). And the people there also tend to have bad attitudes.
So you will have a weird mix of good neighborhoods, where people are busy and stressed and think themselves more educated, wealthier, ambitious, and elite than everyone else... and then a few blocks down bad neighborhoods, where people are broke and sit around all day, bitter about being have-nots, and in a kind of desperation survival mode. Not always a lot of in between.
It's generally more chill in the suburbs / rural parts of the country. Slower paced. More relaxed. Generally friendlier.
But you will still run into clannish people there too. And there are good and bad apples in every community, urban, suburban, or rural.
If you are the helper/teacher/leader mentality, you have to go through this period where you try to help/guide/lead EVERYONE... and then eventually discover there are people you can do that with, and many other people you can't.
If you get a high enough power level you discover different levers of power you can use -- you might see this on your farm. There are people you can genuinely change by opening their minds up to new ways of seeing things and dealing with the world. Those people are your lieutenants, or future peers, or sometimes even they will leave, get ahead of you, and help you up later in gratitude / as someone they respect as a peer and former teacher. Then there are people you can't do that with, but they will respond to incentives and disincentives, so you figure out what motivates them and use that to produce the behavior you need. Then you get the folks where no matter what you do or say, they are impossible to move... and they end up just being obstacles or deadweight. Depending on the situation / your responsibility to those people, you may have to carry them around, you may not, or you may be able to make them the problem of some of the people under you who are more responsive to your leadership ("Hey, I don't know how you want to deal with X group, but we've got to get them to Y. Your call on how you do that").
Yes, it's a common problem for people successful in one area.
It's why you almost never see a guy who is world class in one thing go be a beginner in something else.
There is a level of humility required there that virtually no one who's gained a great deal of success and notoriety in anything is able to endure.
@ZacAdam,
Yeah, I still identify as a blue collar guy.
I was a business consultant for one of the most prestigious brand named companies in the world after college.
Sitting in offices on plum government contracts, working as a direct report for higher ups in the military and various governmental agencies.
But I am still a tire store tech in my head.
Which is a little ironic... my folks started out fairly poor, but by the time I was in high school we were upper middle class. I was this sheltered private school kid, telling myself I'd never do a manual labor job... would never let myself sink that low. Ended up being that was the only thing I could get after school, lol. I went from a top student in school to a guy busting tires in the greasy, filthy shop with a bunch of high school dropouts and ex-cons.
It was great for me though. Formative experience. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.
Anyway -- advertising vs. reality... remember the three favorite animals game?
I think that's the best way to think about it. There are actually three portrayals:
It's interesting to play that game with people and see how well their three animals match up.
You will find the people where all three are basically the same. These are people who are just who they are, and they want to be seen that way, and are that way.
You will find people who want to be seen one way, and are seen a completely different way... these are people who are terrible at advertising themselves properly. The most hilarious ones are the ones when somebody wants to be seen as sexy or fierce or whatever it is but actually is perceived as like clumsy or cuddly or sleepy or family-oriented or whatever funny/off-beat thing.
You will also find people who want to be seen one way, are seen a different way, and actually are a third other way. Those are the really weird ones... this person is not seen how he is OR how he wants to be seen. Why?
But yeah. You know the skilled self-advertisers (or as I call it, people who are good at 'presentation') because their #1 and #2 animals are almost identical.
Chase
Oh yeah. I'd love to do that too.
Of course there is always the question of "Even if you somehow develop a big enough base to pull that off, how do you not end up like Muammar Gaddafi?"
Guess you've just got to race for nukes ASAP and be an Iran or a North Korea if you're small. China and Russia both made out okay as countries outside "The System"... though China much more so than Russia.
Or you could just be a satellite of the Western system. But they don't always treat their dependencies so nicely...
City-folk in general tend to be time-pressed, stressed, and short. So yes, in general.
American inner cities also tend to be high crime impoverished areas, due to government housing projects (which allow impoverished individuals to live in locations that would naturally be very expensive parts of town). And the people there also tend to have bad attitudes.
So you will have a weird mix of good neighborhoods, where people are busy and stressed and think themselves more educated, wealthier, ambitious, and elite than everyone else... and then a few blocks down bad neighborhoods, where people are broke and sit around all day, bitter about being have-nots, and in a kind of desperation survival mode. Not always a lot of in between.
It's generally more chill in the suburbs / rural parts of the country. Slower paced. More relaxed. Generally friendlier.
But you will still run into clannish people there too. And there are good and bad apples in every community, urban, suburban, or rural.
If you are the helper/teacher/leader mentality, you have to go through this period where you try to help/guide/lead EVERYONE... and then eventually discover there are people you can do that with, and many other people you can't.
If you get a high enough power level you discover different levers of power you can use -- you might see this on your farm. There are people you can genuinely change by opening their minds up to new ways of seeing things and dealing with the world. Those people are your lieutenants, or future peers, or sometimes even they will leave, get ahead of you, and help you up later in gratitude / as someone they respect as a peer and former teacher. Then there are people you can't do that with, but they will respond to incentives and disincentives, so you figure out what motivates them and use that to produce the behavior you need. Then you get the folks where no matter what you do or say, they are impossible to move... and they end up just being obstacles or deadweight. Depending on the situation / your responsibility to those people, you may have to carry them around, you may not, or you may be able to make them the problem of some of the people under you who are more responsive to your leadership ("Hey, I don't know how you want to deal with X group, but we've got to get them to Y. Your call on how you do that").
Yes, it's a common problem for people successful in one area.
It's why you almost never see a guy who is world class in one thing go be a beginner in something else.
There is a level of humility required there that virtually no one who's gained a great deal of success and notoriety in anything is able to endure.
@ZacAdam,
Yeah, I still identify as a blue collar guy.
I was a business consultant for one of the most prestigious brand named companies in the world after college.
Sitting in offices on plum government contracts, working as a direct report for higher ups in the military and various governmental agencies.
But I am still a tire store tech in my head.
Which is a little ironic... my folks started out fairly poor, but by the time I was in high school we were upper middle class. I was this sheltered private school kid, telling myself I'd never do a manual labor job... would never let myself sink that low. Ended up being that was the only thing I could get after school, lol. I went from a top student in school to a guy busting tires in the greasy, filthy shop with a bunch of high school dropouts and ex-cons.
It was great for me though. Formative experience. Wouldn't have missed it for the world.
Anyway -- advertising vs. reality... remember the three favorite animals game?
I think that's the best way to think about it. There are actually three portrayals:
- How you want others to see you (how you advertise yourself)
- How others actually see you (your external reality)
- How you actually are (your internal reality)
It's interesting to play that game with people and see how well their three animals match up.
You will find the people where all three are basically the same. These are people who are just who they are, and they want to be seen that way, and are that way.
You will find people who want to be seen one way, and are seen a completely different way... these are people who are terrible at advertising themselves properly. The most hilarious ones are the ones when somebody wants to be seen as sexy or fierce or whatever it is but actually is perceived as like clumsy or cuddly or sleepy or family-oriented or whatever funny/off-beat thing.
You will also find people who want to be seen one way, are seen a different way, and actually are a third other way. Those are the really weird ones... this person is not seen how he is OR how he wants to be seen. Why?
But yeah. You know the skilled self-advertisers (or as I call it, people who are good at 'presentation') because their #1 and #2 animals are almost identical.
Chase
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- Nov 20, 2012
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- 6,551
I can assume that your third favourite animal is something that flies. Means = free spirited.
And that you are driven by differentiation. That outcome of you in the tyre store after you mentally believe you would not.
It is not that the thought didn't work. But That you are somewhat free spirited but dormant. You only driven to be different when you can show differentiation. That is how you show off. I think i remember that you were off putting to the tyre store guys when you just started.
This is my reading on you, Chase. It's random.
Mentally, i share the same feel on that thought process of becoming what i promise not to. But so driven by differentiation, identifying myself.
I can smell the pulse of your wrist.
but i just can't get a full read. I like to think that i am that shadow side of you. We on different sides. Chase with more "positive" formative experiences versus Zac with more "negative" formative experiences.
Also because it is a forum. :/ i probably am out of wack with my read.
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Every LTR girlfriend I take that I play this game with has that as her third animal. Bird, butterfly, something beautiful that flies.
But that is not mine
It's a nice cold read!
I do feel driven by differentiation to some extent, yes. Talked about that a bit in this article. Not a trait in my animal test though...
I can smell the pulse of your wrist.
I like to think that i am that shadow side of you. We on different sides. Chase with more "positive" formative experiences versus Zac with more "negative" formative experiences.
That may well be!
Chase
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Either Chase is lying, or his third animal is a mummified guy in the Mayans that I can't seem to figure out.
HAHAHAHAHA! Damn it. Tsk tsk.
Eh Train, i can't even decide which animal I like!
HAHAHAHAHA! Damn it. Tsk tsk.
Eh Train, i can't even decide which animal I like!
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Might be late to the civility party but wanted to share a personal story about it having seen both ends of the wealth spectrum.
People who seemed to grow up poor and humble yet made it out of those environments just want peace in life. A lot of them want to do the right thing, play by the rules, and value the stable life. A nice home, high paying job, working hard, and learning is not really anything to be ashamed of. For these people who grew up in areas where gang violence and sketchy characters were the norm, they love and want order. Some of these people lost family members in violence due to a lack of orders.
In lower income neighborhoods, even the gang members usually know not to mess around too much with cops. A lot of them have seen how bad it can feel when law enforcement comes down hard on you.
I taught a couple summers at a struggling high school and then one at a private high school, it became clear to me there. Kids at a struggling high school were happy for attention and being talked to like normal people. Kids at a private high school were bratty and disrespectful.
The people I have seen take on this rebel act and pride themselves on disrespecting authority were usually upper middle class and wealthier whites. I'd say rich white girls are probably amongst the main group to do it but rich white guys on daddy's money do it too. I used to date a girl who was a teacher, she said she did not want to touch private schools with a 10 ft pole. The kids acted bad on purpose and didn't pay attention because it was cool to disrespect the teacher.
Even having been around a lot of the upper middle class suburban demographic that goes off to a party school and goes Greek only to get your prototypical corporate job like everyone else, I found this out the most. No fear of cops, law enforcement, or authority. Almost like a contest of who can piss off authority the most and have stories to tell.
When I dug in more and got to really know these people, I found that they were bored. These people had it all growing up, never had to work for a thing, were spoiled day one, and knew they could get away with about anything. For them, the nice stable life was a given but it was also boring, so they wanted to push the buttons of others. This is why they got blacked out drunk, did hard drugs, and threw their lives away partying so much, it is because they were bored.
In a way, the human conditions crave a struggle and challenge. For people who never had to work for a thing in their lives, this was their version of a struggle. This is why rich white girls will cry over the damnest thing, they never faced a struggle in their lives.
Even in Europe, I found that it was the Scandinavians who made for the rowdiest of Europeans that often started fights and were looking for trouble. Reason being, life is so easy in Norway and Sweden, even their prisons are better than a typical American hotel. These people were bored out of their minds so pushing authority and stirring the pot were huge for them. Meanwhile the tourists from poorer European countries and third world countries were happy to just be abroad and see a new city.
People who seemed to grow up poor and humble yet made it out of those environments just want peace in life. A lot of them want to do the right thing, play by the rules, and value the stable life. A nice home, high paying job, working hard, and learning is not really anything to be ashamed of. For these people who grew up in areas where gang violence and sketchy characters were the norm, they love and want order. Some of these people lost family members in violence due to a lack of orders.
In lower income neighborhoods, even the gang members usually know not to mess around too much with cops. A lot of them have seen how bad it can feel when law enforcement comes down hard on you.
I taught a couple summers at a struggling high school and then one at a private high school, it became clear to me there. Kids at a struggling high school were happy for attention and being talked to like normal people. Kids at a private high school were bratty and disrespectful.
The people I have seen take on this rebel act and pride themselves on disrespecting authority were usually upper middle class and wealthier whites. I'd say rich white girls are probably amongst the main group to do it but rich white guys on daddy's money do it too. I used to date a girl who was a teacher, she said she did not want to touch private schools with a 10 ft pole. The kids acted bad on purpose and didn't pay attention because it was cool to disrespect the teacher.
Even having been around a lot of the upper middle class suburban demographic that goes off to a party school and goes Greek only to get your prototypical corporate job like everyone else, I found this out the most. No fear of cops, law enforcement, or authority. Almost like a contest of who can piss off authority the most and have stories to tell.
When I dug in more and got to really know these people, I found that they were bored. These people had it all growing up, never had to work for a thing, were spoiled day one, and knew they could get away with about anything. For them, the nice stable life was a given but it was also boring, so they wanted to push the buttons of others. This is why they got blacked out drunk, did hard drugs, and threw their lives away partying so much, it is because they were bored.
In a way, the human conditions crave a struggle and challenge. For people who never had to work for a thing in their lives, this was their version of a struggle. This is why rich white girls will cry over the damnest thing, they never faced a struggle in their lives.
Even in Europe, I found that it was the Scandinavians who made for the rowdiest of Europeans that often started fights and were looking for trouble. Reason being, life is so easy in Norway and Sweden, even their prisons are better than a typical American hotel. These people were bored out of their minds so pushing authority and stirring the pot were huge for them. Meanwhile the tourists from poorer European countries and third world countries were happy to just be abroad and see a new city.
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So that oh pry dude really left? Lol that's funny I unwatched this thread cuz I was getting way too many notifications. I check back just to reread something and I saw he just like pretty much ragequit. I kinda liked that guy. I do think he bitches way too much for someone who has fucked over 100 girls and over trivial shit,but I feel like he provided great value to this forum. Also we have a similiar background which impresses me cuz most people of south asian descent are incompetent with women. Oh well life goes on
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Though I questioned the validity of some of them, particularly his last one given how bad the COVID-19 situation is in NYC right now, those lay reports made it very easy for someone to break no fap. Not sure what he does for a living but he could make money writing erotica. I'd bet there is a market out there for Indian men fucking women of other races just begging to be tapped.
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When you play this game - do you tell the girl the truth of what the animals mean, and what you think that tells you about her?
As far as I remember these kinds of personality test routines were initially done for value demonstration. However skilled PUA quickly found that they can be better used to easily segue into building comfort and to do sexual framing.
Depending on your goal you can either tell the"truth" or use your own interpretation.
I mainly use this for deep diving to easily make her talk about herself. Rather than asking questions about her directly, I start with the game. Then tease her saying that it actually means nothing and that I was just messing around. Then just give her the standard interpretation, from this point It doesn't really matter if I'm right or not, in both cases I will ask her to follow up questions or make assumptions. Bam I made her talk about herself without making it sound like an interview. Plus it builds some compliance since she was initially following my lead.
The other use is from Captain Jack who adapted both Strawberry Field Test and Ring On Finger Test to Sexual Framing. Whatever the girl answers he will interpret them to frame both him and herself as a sexual being, discreet and don't care about society, etc... The full routine can easily be found on Google.
That was my 2 Cents
