Tougher markets don't usually turn men into better players, here is why.

[Indian Race Troll (IRT)]

So there is a saying that competitive dating markets such as say Toronto or an LA somehow lead to better players. The idea goes that a man growing up in a city where the local women are stuck up, picky, and harder to get or the local game is more social circle oriented will do better than men who grow up in an "easier" city. Such a man has honed his skills and gone through tougher challenges so he will obviously be more prepared compared to the guy who was just spoiled.

I used to think this way since well, I was that unlucky guy.

I spent a decent amount of my youth in Atlanta, especially my formative game years. Alongside Toronto, San Fran, and LA; I'd say Atlanta is right up there. The local women are very shallow, women are less attractive than you'd see in Charleston, Miami or Nashville, and social circles are more prominent in the city than others. Even the culture makes people materialistic, judgmental, and generally lack empathy compared to our southern neighbors. Add to that the self-righteous religious attitude and goody two-shoe judgmental men, you have a generally tough market.

Now you would think that anyone who gets through Atlanta and can do well there could absolutely clean up in NYC or Chicago right? I used to think that too but then I realized I was being bit naive.

After having had enough of Atlanta, I moved to NYC with some of my friends from Atlanta and we had a crew up there. What I noticed was that most men went with social circle and only got with girls in their social circles they knew from Georgia.

So I started expanding.

I met guys from California and from Toronto, a couple were even approach machines but when I compared their end results to guys I knew from NYC, Miami, or Chicago; boy did my jaw drop. At first, I thought the men from Toronto and San Fran would be cleaning up, they talked about game so much and knew so much about women yet they hardly closed in the nights I went out with them. Then I noticed my friends from more laid back markets, they were naturals.

If we were to treat this like a football game, and I am talking American football, the latter team would have won by halftime.

Now what happened?

I started wondering why my friends from more doable and easier markets were closing a lot more often and taking more girls home in Manhattan bars while my friends from Toronto were crashing hard and making a fool of themselves. As much hype as Toronto got as the birthplace of game, let's say it was rare for my friends from there to have nearly the same success my friends from easier markets did. So after getting to know them for months and even having my own epiphany around this, I started to realize why men from easier markets were also a lot better.

Men from easier cities were less bitter and lover of women.

As @Chase says, do not be bitter. I found my friends from Toronto and LA for example had PTSD almost around dealing with shitty women. They had gone through too many plastic barbies or met too many stuck up women that they thought even some cool laid back local Manhattan girl was a plastic Los Angeles cunt or some wannabe from Toronto desperate for validation. Even conversations with them showed the bitterness and negativity that my friends from easier markets lacked. It was hard to explain because it was emotional than verbal, my friends from easier markets naturally attracted people to them.

My friend from Miami? Women genuinely felt loved by him. I saw him pull a threesome one night, he was probably the best natural I knew. Even when chicks were cunts to him, he laughed it off. One night it won a girl over after she was initially a bitch to him.

My friend from San Francisco? Theories and theories about why women are bitches.

It makes sense though, why would you be so nice and cool most women you knew growing up were cunts? Having dealt with Toronto women myself, I cannot see how any man can come out sane after dealing with them for years.

It was easier to have an abundance mentality.

My friend from Toronto was a spam approach machine, he had to approach and prove himself, to him that meant everything. My friend from LA was showy and wanted to approach a lot too, he had to get a girl. Now I compare this to my natural friend from Manhattan (UES kid, cool Jewish guy) who was a prototypical natural, he just enjoyed the night and was not desperate to approach. Somehow, he had this vibe where at any given night, at least a couple of girls just happened to talk to him that night. Even if he blew it, you rarely saw it bother him.

With my Toronto friend, I noticed a scarcity mindset. What if X bar has too many dudes or what if bar Y has not enough hot girls? It was all about pussy when going out, he had the shit down to a gameplan. My LA friend was always talking about girls and pussy, even after a few drinks, various kinds of girls. My NYC natural friend? We would just bullshit at times and laugh unless an opportunity came up, it usually did for him.

Men from harder cities also came off as tryhards.

With my friend from Toronto, I noticed he went overboard sometimes to where he would grope girls, grind on them, and even try to make out right then and there. One night he got into a fight and got knocked out. My other friend from Toronto would shit-test otherwise cool normal girls who just wanted to have a good night, even got into arguments with a few, he was quite petty. For both guys, even slight insults was enough to send them over the edge on some nights.

My friend from LA was somewhat similar, he'd argue minor nonsense and had somewhat of a thin skin. For him, he had to be right and some nights it ruined the mood.

My friend from Chicago? The dude could diffuse aggressive homeless bums, angry drunks, and even made friends with a couple of drunk Irishmen who were talking shit at first.

So I made the mistake of introducing Chicago friend to Toronto friend, what happens? Well, Toronto friend initially becomes good friend with him but then after seeing how natural the Chicago friend was, Toronto friend got jealous and started trying to scheme against him.

Men from easier cities had more experience early on.

When I went to high school in Atlanta, a surprising number of guys graduated virgins. Part of it was due to how religious people were and the other part how shitty local girls were.

My friends from Chicago, Miami, and NYC had already been with countless girls during and after their high school days. In other words, due to the lack of religious restrictions, higher quality girls their age, a sexually liberal culture, and just better women to be around? They got it out of their systems earlier in life and if they choose to, they also continued to build on it. My NYC friends often did and they were naturals.

About the natural vs PUA debate.

Chase has done a post on it but my friends from easier cities were more natural in their vibe, they didn't need women. My friends from harder cities? PUAs.

So can men from harder cities prevail?

I say yes but I think a lot of inner game work needs to be done and they would benefit from just cooling off, the desperation shows.

 

[Chase]

This is really interesting, @Proactivity.

In general, my experience has been highly competitive markets can produce some extremely skilled players.

Game Imbalance Hypothesis

This is the first in a three-part series on regional sexual selection pressures. This piece introduces the concept of “game imbalance”, defines it, and posits it as a contributing cause of men’s difficulties with women. I have an alternate theory why certain classes of men struggle with women...

www.girlschase.com

Of course, there might also be selection bias there. May be the case that I'm meeting a lot of guys who carved their way to the top of a very competitive pile, lined with the carcasses of men who gave up or settled for scraps.

I haven't met a ton of seducers from Toronto or San Fran. I have picked up in San Francisco. But I would not want to live there.

I've specifically avoided ever going to Toronto because of how legendarily horrible it supposedly is for picking up. Also because there is no other justification anyone has ever given me for going there (really nice shopping malls?).

I found my friends from Toronto and LA for example had PTSD almost around dealing with shitty women. They had gone through too many plastic barbies or met too many stuck up women that they thought even some cool laid back local Manhattan girl was a plastic Los Angeles cunt or some wannabe from Toronto desperate for validation. Even conversations with them showed the bitterness and negativity that my friends from easier markets lacked. It was hard to explain because it was emotional than verbal, my friends from easier markets naturally attracted people to them.

Guys from high-comp markets having "hot girl PTSD" is a fascinating observation.

It definitely is the case that guys tailor their game to the kinds of girls they're encountering.

With super superficial girls, you are not going to cut it making normal conversation. They aren't really interested in that. They don't have much to say themselves, and they are used to men trying to impress them. Usually you need specific routines/gambits for these types of girls. It is not a coincidence that Mystery Method (Mystery was from Toronto... then lived in L.A.) is totally based on routine stacks.

If a guy has associated "hot = superficial, requiring a specific routine stack", and goes somewhere you can just talk normally to girls, and starts running through a stack customized to status climber Hollywood girls... yeah, that is going to tend not to work, unless he has happened onto status climber girls in the city he's in.

I have also certainly met small town naturals making it big in the big city.

There's probably some selection bias there too -- seems like an inordinate amount of skilled/attractive guys who migrate from small towns to big cities are naturals. Presumably the non-naturals are happy settling for whatever they can get back home. Lots of small town guys marry young and start families young. Those guys obviously aren't moving to the big city and going out to pick up.

I will also say... even in big cities, I always focus on finding easy venues within the city. And I noticed early on my skills progressed fairly quick, while other guys I knew in pickup who kept going to the same super hard venues basically stayed static.

On the converse, I have known guys who learned pickup in some super easy locale (think white guys first learning to pick up in SE Asia), who then go somewhere harder and become bitter about how much tougher it is. I remember a guy years ago who left Asia, where he'd done decently well, and moved to the U.S. All he could talk about was how awful it was that the girls were (in his opinion) much less attractive, yet at the same time much more stuck up and harder to get.

So, there is clearly some middle ground between "too easy" and "too hard" that is optimal for learning game.

Learn somewhere too easy, and you probably can't hack it anywhere harder than that (unless you become, like, the best guy in the too-easy place. Then maybe. But you'll still be in for some shock going somewhere harder).

Learn somewhere too hard, and you won't be able to adapt to places that are easier. Actually I have seen this as well -- guys going from very hard places to very easy ones are often so gamey they talk themselves out of lays. Girls will be ready to go with them, and the guy will keep talking and gaming... you'll be looking at him like "What are you doing dude, just take this girl home and shag her already." Meanwhile he'll be trying to move from A3 to C1 or whatever it is he's doing. Girl gives up and moves on, and guy figures he needs to get tighter A3 game.

I still like "find easier venues in an otherwise challenging location" best. That way you can build momentum and get enough experiences deep into seductions (and not just get stuck opening over and over because you can't get past the first few minutes with any chick), but you still have the option to test your game against more difficult or even super difficult girls.

It is nice sometimes to take a break from the easy venues and say to yourself, "Let's see how I do in this super tough venue. Let's see if I'm able to hack it now," or, "Let's see how I do in this regular people venue that is not really a pickup place."

But definitely, changing locations, you need to be sensitive to the fact that it may be much easier, or much harder, than where you're coming from.

You may need to drop stuff you don't need to do that you adapted to do in the old dating market... or add in a few things you weren't doing before in your prior locales.

Chase

 

[Starboy]

I love this thread topic. I knew nyc was great for daygame because there's so many women outside in nearly any borough,but I didn't think nightgame was great. Just cuz the bars from what i've seen looks like girls going out with their big friend groups. Like nyc bars are almost gatherings of big social groups who don't want to be disturbed by outsiders. If you try approaching them while she's with the group and they're having a discussion they verbally roast, taunt or think you're the thirsty loner loserboy trying to pickup girls by himself. I know you're supposed to look for dive bars cuz they are better for meeting women. But the only place I know that's reliable is the east village. This guy from the forum introduced me to bars with attractive women who are not with their guy friends so you don't have to worry about annoying envious men.

 

[Velasco]

If you try approaching them while she's with the group and they're having a discussion they verbally roast, taunt or think you're the thirsty loner loserboy trying to pickup girls by himself. I know you're supposed to look for dive bars cuz they are better for meeting women. But the only place I know that's reliable is the east village

Lol. If you think the dive bars in EV (13th Step, Solas, Beauty Bar etc.) are the only reliable place to pick up chicks, then that just tells me you dont know the spots. Personally I thought O'Pry was a vagina, but the guy at least knew his way around the city. I would send him a message if he handed you his contact info before leaving.

 

[Starboy]

Lol. If you think the dive bars in EV (13th Step, Solas, Beauty Bar etc.) are the only reliable place to pick up chicks, then that just tells me you dont know the spots. Personally I thought O'Pry was a vagina, but the guy at least knew his way around the city. I would send him a message if he handed you his contact info before leaving.

I'm not saying it's the only reliable place in the city. I said it was the only place I knew of since I didn't go to bars unless they were social occasions.Clearly if you don't know where to find something or someplace doesn't mean someone else can't. Or just cuz you don't know how to do something doesn't mean nobody else can. And idk if you're indirectly calling me a vagina by calling oh pry one. If you are then that's wack. If you feel that way about me at least be straightup.

 

[Chrance]

Imo worrying about the hardness of a city, who has it harder, which one is worse, etc - all of this is mental noise that should be avoided. I’ve only been to a few cities in US and Europe, and it’s hard for me to put into words, but I think there’s a lot about a new environment that can throw you off outside of the women’s temperament or your game; like you may not know where to go, where to pull, what people value, etc. - all of this can fuck you up and ruin your perceptions of a city.

you know when you pull/close at a certain bar or club and it changes your attitude of that venue? I think cities are just like that.

sounds to me @Proactivity that your Canadian/Toronto friend had some game (jadedness/tryhardness) issues he simply wasn’t aware of. Maybe you should let him know haha.

 

[Skills]

Well there is always a country, a city a bar and even a specific part of the bar were people can do better. I killed it in Miami and Broward were a lot of the girl like Latin men, in Palm beach a bit harder. But the whole post sounds like theory and causation correlation. The problem I see in forums for years is that people tend to compare top puas with average naturals and average puas with top naturals.

 

[Indian Race Troll (IRT)]

I would not count results and pulls as the same or weigh them equally. After my encounter of meeting a forum member and getting to know him, I'd put more focus on meeting guys who you click with as friends and see eye to eye with compared to any guy who seems to be getting laid. You could run into a disrespectful piece of shit who needs to have his teeth kicked in so he can learn a lesson or two.

While I will not mention anyone by name, let's just say that a little over a year ago I met a New Yorker from this forum while visiting the city who if you were to believe lay reports seems to get laid a decent amount. Fucking prick and a rude person, told me point blank he is only hanging out with me because his "friends" are out of town, sure.....I had a tough time believing he has actual friends. The other time I went out with him, his wing even called him out for being a disrespectful piece of shit who talks down to people.

Where did this guy go out to? To the grungy, sketchy, and classless Lower East Side of Manhattan and not even the fancy rooftops there. Loads of people in their 20s just binge drinking like in college, loud music blasting, bars packed to where you cannot move, fights waiting to happen at any moment, and even the women were slutty and trashy looking. Ratios at bars skewed towards being mostly guys and social groups. One dude even tries to be friendly to him and make small talk, he ignores the guy and goes to approach a couple hot blondes of which one shoos him away with her hands, I almost spit my drink laughing as these two guys behind them laugh.

As much as I refuse to ever meet him again, he did have something going with a girl that night. She had that Kim Kardashian look going for her with the dark hair and tan and all but not nearly as tall, kind of cute but in a really trashy way and probably from jersey. What's weird is he didn't even approach her, they bumped into each other at a crowded bar and an hour later are making out. He wasn't a bad looking guy and I think he just got lucky. Both are kind of drunk and then outside the bar I am talking to a cute blonde and her chubby brunette friend as he is near us with the girl he is with.

The brunette even said that the guy is not smooth at all with women and seems like a total pervert. This dude was grabbing the girl's ass and she even told him she is not going home with him which he ignores, grabs her hand and pulls her to head out. Now he pulls her closer while walking away, the chick found it funny and laughed repeating she is not going home with him but he makes up a bullshit excuse of taking her to get something to eat nearby, asking her if she likes Middle Eastern food while it is past 1 AM. She went along while he probably paid for her meal.

Even the blonde I am with says sure, Middle Eastern food, finding it bizzare. You could tell the guy was a sleazebag around women but man, you ever heard of consent bro? She said she is not going home with you. Even the blonde asked me if that was my friend and I had to deny it.

So he was not in a prime hotspot because of the awful ratios while he might claimed to know the city well, didn't even approach the girl he headed out of the bar with, and was pushy as well by just ignoring when she said she is not going home with him. The girl looked trashy as fuck too, a far cry from blonde bombshells he claims to do well with (while some insanely hot ones just magically rejected him that night in a cold way, hmmm so believable).

Maybe that encounter left a bad taste in my mouth but please only meet guys you click with on the forum than those claiming to get results.

 

[Starboy]

I would not count results and pulls as the same or weigh them equally. After my encounter of meeting a forum member and getting to know him, I'd put more focus on meeting guys who you click with as friends and see eye to eye with compared to any guy who seems to be getting laid. You could run into a disrespectful piece of shit who needs to have his teeth kicked in so he can learn a lesson or two.

While I will not mention anyone by name, let's just say that a little over a year ago I met a New Yorker from this forum while visiting the city who if you were to believe lay reports seems to get laid a decent amount. Fucking prick and a rude person, told me point blank he is only hanging out with me because his "friends" are out of town, sure.....I had a tough time believing he has actual friends. The other time I went out with him, his wing even called him out for being a disrespectful piece of shit who talks down to people.

Where did this guy go out to? To the grungy, sketchy, and classless Lower East Side of Manhattan and not even the fancy rooftops there. Loads of people in their 20s just binge drinking like in college, loud music blasting, bars packed to where you cannot move, fights waiting to happen at any moment, and even the women were slutty and trashy looking. Ratios at bars skewed towards being mostly guys and social groups. One dude even tries to be friendly to him and make small talk, he ignores the guy and goes to approach a couple hot blondes of which one shoos him away with her hands, I almost spit my drink laughing as these two guys behind them laugh.

As much as I refuse to ever meet him again, he did have something going with a girl that night. She had that Kim Kardashian look going for her with the dark hair and tan and all but not nearly as tall, kind of cute but in a really trashy way and probably from jersey. What's weird is he didn't even approach her, they bumped into each other at a crowded bar and an hour later are making out. He wasn't a bad looking guy and I think he just got lucky. Both are kind of drunk and then outside the bar I am talking to a cute blonde and her chubby brunette friend as he is near us with the girl he is with.

The brunette even said that the guy is not smooth at all with women and seems like a total pervert. This dude was grabbing the girl's ass and she even told him she is not going home with him which he ignores, grabs her hand and pulls her to head out. Now he pulls her closer while walking away, the chick found it funny and laughed repeating she is not going home with him but he makes up a bullshit excuse of taking her to get something to eat nearby, asking her if she likes Middle Eastern food while it is past 1 AM. She went along while he probably paid for her meal.

Even the blonde I am with says sure, Middle Eastern food, finding it bizzare. You could tell the guy was a sleazebag around women but man, you ever heard of consent bro? She said she is not going home with you. Even the blonde asked me if that was my friend and I had to deny it.

So he was not in a prime hotspot because of the awful ratios while he might claimed to know the city well, didn't even approach the girl he headed out of the bar with, and was pushy as well by just ignoring when she said she is not going home with him. The girl looked trashy as fuck too, a far cry from blonde bombshells he claims to do well with (while some insanely hot ones just magically rejected him that night in a cold way, hmmm so believable).

Maybe that encounter left a bad taste in my mouth but please only meet guys you click with on the forum than those claiming to get results.

Yeah if I really committed to getting a wingman we definetly would've had to vibe first. No conceited,superior i'm better than you bullshit. And can't be too thirsty when it comes to pickup and getting women. The one guy I met up with he was a pretty chill dude and we shared some same values.Unfortunately we haven't hung out since because of corona.

 

[Velasco]

Where did this guy go out to? To the grungy, sketchy, and classless Lower East Side of Manhattan and not even the fancy rooftops there. Loads of people in their 20s just binge drinking like in college, loud music blasting, bars packed to where you cannot move, fights waiting to happen at any moment, and even the women were slutty and trashy looking.

lol I know which bars you're talking about.

Even the blonde I am with says sure, Middle Eastern food, finding it bizzare. You could tell the guy was a sleazebag around women but man, you ever heard of consent bro?

 

[Dr.X]

Thank you. I'm upping my asshole in real life but apparently I have much to learn.