Why Are Women With "Mostly" Male Friends Always Toxic

Teevster

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They really are sleeping with all their guy friends. It's not just suspicion... they actually are! They are more open about it than any kind of girl, but they will still lie about it if they are dating a guy they think can't take it

My experience is that it ranges between 30% of her male friends to 100% of them. However, it is unlikely to reach 100 if she has gay friends. That said, the minimum is always around 30% - that is, she will AT LEAST fuck 30% of her male friends. Now, many may think... well 30%... that means that if she has 10 male friends, she is probably only fucking 3! (huh)

Well not so fast, because most of these girls will "change out" their male friends extremely regularly (exception being gay friends). Usually male friends only last for a few months.

As you can see, it is very synonymous to the typical FB relationship.

-Teevster
 
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Teevster

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I had a good female friend like this with a master's degree and who was also studying to pass the bar exam. She had a good corporate job and made good money. So it's not a rule that chicks like this will be bad at education or career. In fact all the ones I have known decently well have had good educations and careers -- they're a lot more masculine in prioritizing education/career, IME. Female entrepreneurs I have known have also been a lot more likely to be the high-T "all my friends are guys" types of girl.

Seems like there is a distinction to be tone here:

1. High testo girls - Tomboyish girls.
2. The feminine covert narc chick.

I had the second one in mind when making this post and the second one always, without exception, have no education, suffer from psychological illness: "depression" (oh and she will use that reel her "male friends" in). They almost always drug abuse.

Regarding the high testo girl, I have limited experience in recent time as I have not slept with that many lately. I tend to like feminine looking girls. So you may be right about everything you and others mention, however, they are not the girls I initially had in mind. I think the distinction I just presented is therefore crucial.

I don't mind guys discussing both types here.

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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I've thought about this too. I think they lack the ability to get along with other females, which requires a level of intuitive social skills and self-esteem, so they hang out with men instead of working on the internal issues. Sometimes it looks like this, low self-esteem girls will befriend women below their "level" and thus those lower level women will get jealous, and then it starts a catty dynamic. Rather than deal with that, they get sick of it and turn away from female friends in general.

Women need to learn how to screen or else they let bad people into their life. Girls are like cats, if there is an internal problem they will start clawing at each other and it gets vicious.

I think they don't get along with females because they see them as competition. Those girls who have only male friends seem to be validation seeking (at least the "non-tomboy" type). Thus other women are in the day.

I think the rest you mention is correct and matches my own observations.

I have my own hypothesis that girls with dogs are usually well adjusted, girls with cats are a bit off. Same goes for men, but the other way around. Men who can handle cats, understand women, men who spend time with dogs don't understand. I think it's because you have no know how to hold space and give space with cats, but dogs you can just rub them down and they are fine. Just like men and women. haha. It's just a fun thing I like to keep an eye out for, doesn't really hold up though.

Cats love me though. They are very obedient to me. My wing, Pelusita is a crazy "catman". Correlation?

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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I imagine this is true, but I have never been in a relationship with these girls (fucked a couple tho). So in what way?

So I still don't know, there's my admission of a lack of experience with it, for your consideration.

However, from knowing these girls somewhat intimately sometimes, I feel like the mark is being missed.

1. I noticed that, with these girls, the relationship to all but the most loser-ish (sorry :( ) of girls is highly adversarial. In other words, their female friends, if sparse, are usually girls that have extreme difficulty competing for men.

I discussed this with my friend yesterday. One of the girls with "mostly only male friends" had 1-2 female friends that I have met. Both ugly as hell with low social skills. This matches the things discussed here already: hot female friends equal potential competition.

2. I noticed that these girls have overly ample supply of attention from men immediately available. And it leads to changes in behavior. IME fear of abandonment and of loss is a primary motivator in women, and having the reserve stable overly-full seems to remove the edge. Its true that the quality of the affect is different, she may not have any steak left, but she knows her fridge is overflowing with ham sandwiches and hot dogs. I think, moreso than other women who experience a lesser version of this, this affects behavior.

The fear of abandonment is spot on. I have noticed the same. But again, this fear is usually linked to BPD and covert narcisism. Again back to what we mentioned earlier. So this is a good observation.

It also correlates with other toxic behaviours such as drug abuse and so on.

3. For these reasons, I can't help but see it as a competitive strategy. To some extent, I wonder why more women don't try it. If that's true, and her 'girl game' is more dialed up because she's in the game and she's winnin, I think by proxy I imagine more difficulties with her in a monogamous relationship.

One explanation though is that... the only men willing to become one of their "male buddies" (when ever a girl talks about "buddies", I see red flags everywhere) are low value guys, usually no life losers. They are not the "high value" men most women seek.

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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I've talked to a few and some said they prefer male friends cuz they're less dramatic and less likely to betray or stab them in the back or talk shit about them

Do you think this is true or it's just bs? And how would this tie into validation if it's a valid reason?

Could be BS. Could be a socially acceptable pretext for her behaviour.
It could also be that there is "some truth" to it, namely that she has tons of drama with girls. But when, the question is, what is the source of this drama? If you start digging you may find many skeletons.

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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Women like this are on a spectrum with how aware they are of the social dynamics at play. Generally, they have learned this form of socialization from an early age as a response to atypical social circumstances. There are a number of reasons that would compel her towards this sort of lifestyle, and many of those reasons are not entirely in their control (at least at first). Whatever the reason this is the reality she comes to inhabit and all of the mechanisms are not entirely clear or conscious to her. Basically, it is what she has come to know, and she probably won't challenge her paradigm much as it has somewhat worked for her in many regards. So, while from the outside we might be able to see how this lifestyle of hers is setting her up for drama, many superficial/fickle "friendships" with tons of unresolved sexual tension, or rocky romantic relationships that have frequent power struggles, she may not be even able to see this for herself. She might be totally naive about it, or maybe somewhat aware but unsure of how to confront how it affects her life (or doesn't really care to). And then there are women who use these social dynamics for more calculated, narcissistic purposes. Either way, unless a man wants to have to constantly butt up against her deeply ingrained sense of social reality it is really a losing sum game for him.

Yeah the question is, did their psychological issues cause this upbringing, or did the upbringing cause this behaviour? Or a mix of both? I can't say. But yeah, I have noticed that all these girls have had some fishy upbringing.

I do believe that they are very conscious of what they are doing on a social level (social dynamics - they know that their behaviour will manipulate men to give them for instance, attention) - however they not conscious about why they feel the need to be doing all thi shit. Basically not conscious about their mental condition.

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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Slightly agree, tho i know some girls who fit the box of classically straight, lesbian feeling chicks (sometimes looking, [low haircut]), who are just uber dominant/ masculine. Still get boyfriends, sometimes those guys are even more masculine/dominant. Sometimes the guys are covert gay.

Could still be on the spectrum of sexuality, but don’t know a chick who isnt. Atleast a little bit lol.

These girls usually have some kind of reason, raised around boys, tough life, oldest sibling, dad raised her like a boy. Can usually find some tell. They aren’t comfortable being “girly”, and are damaged in a way. You can see glimpses of girliness, but it’s not their default personality.

^These chicks don’t always have just male friends tho. Not to my knowledge. Those are the girly girls.

100% agree there tho, especially if shes super flirty with everybody.

Yeah ok. I back down on this one. Seems other have similar observations to you, and shared pretty solid proof that I was in the wrong. I don't go for tomboys, and masculine women in general. Probably did so when I was younger (and active), but after I started going to gay clubs, I tended to stay away from them, probably due to me screening them out (probably.... prematurely) for being lesbians, even in non-gay venues.

Anyway, this led me to the following conclusion:

There are two types of women with "mostly male friends"
- Tomboys
- Covert Narcs seeking validation.

ref:
Sometimes they really like the attention and get a huge ego boost from the shit the guys do to compete with one another.

sometimes it’s because the woman is more masculine. Those women are usually pretty annoying.


I think your post describes the first one.

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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Richard Reeves, the guy getting a lot of press for Of Men and Boys says that because of how dating works from a female perspective - women block out a lot of male behavior as a cognitive survival method. He had some statistic on it. I think David Buss, the biggest evo psych, also has papers along the same lines. In order to cope, chicks often have to engage in willful blindness, or they are so deep in the behavior that they are blind to it.

Since neither of those guys are players, I very much doubt they considered all of the second and third order effects of that sort of behavior.

It's honestly hard for me to grasp all of the practical and theoretical implications.

I do believe women do this (willful blindness) when dealing with orbiters. It is possible the "tomboy" does it too (I have too little experience with those).

That said, I do believe women with tons of male friends (the covert narc one) is fully aware of what they are doing, as these girls usually tend to be very socially intelligent, manipulative and Machiavallian.

-Teevster
 

PaulieFlyn10

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I discussed this with my friend yesterday. One of the girls with "mostly only male friends" had 1-2 female friends that I have met. Both ugly as hell with low social skills. This matches the things discussed here already: hot female friends equal potential competition.



The fear of abandonment is spot on. I have noticed the same. But again, this fear is usually linked to BPD and covert narcisism. Again back to what we mentioned earlier. So this is a good observation.

It also correlates with other toxic behaviours such as drug abuse and so on.



One explanation though is that... the only men willing to become one of their "male buddies" (when ever a girl talks about "buddies", I see red flags everywhere) are low value guys, usually no life losers. They are not the "high value" men most women seek.

-Teevster
Yeah... noticed the fear of abandonment thing with two of my fwb that i got really close to

But I also saw them as cluster B girls too... could there be a correlation between the two?
 

PaulieFlyn10

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Same thing I have heard from girls who have only male friends too.

Things I have noticed about these types, at least from the ones I've known:

  • They have sex with any guy, from nerdy guys with zero game to sexy chads. Loosest standards ever

  • They're high testosterone and high in sensation-seeking. Tend to fuck ALL their friends

  • They are "monogamously challenged"... if they ever try monogamy they describe it as "so hard" and it doesn't last

  • They usually prefer LTRs with nice guys or nerdy guys, who they regard as "safer" and less likely to run off doing something else

  • They do not really flirt or act sexy in a womanly way. Instead they just hang out with guys buddy-buddy and eventually hook up

  • They don't pull it back with guys in relationships -- they will be just as buddy-buddy with these guys as they will unattached guys

  • Other girls seem to roundly consider them threats. Probably because most girls are subtle, cautious, indirect, whereas these girls are just super comfortable around guys, really chummy with them, never dialing it down even if other women are possessive/staking a claim, etc.

  • If you bring them around girls you are seeing, your girlfriends will IMMEDIATELY suspect you have slept with them (even if you have not)

  • My guess is the backstabbing/drama comes from every normal girl looking at how chummy these girls are with guys and suspecting they have just slept with every guy, including the guys the other girls like, or the guys the other girls are dating (and much of the time, the suspicious girls will be right!)

I had a good female friend like this with a master's degree and who was also studying to pass the bar exam. She had a good corporate job and made good money. So it's not a rule that chicks like this will be bad at education or career. In fact all the ones I have known decently well have had good educations and careers -- they're a lot more masculine in prioritizing education/career, IME. Female entrepreneurs I have known have also been a lot more likely to be the high-T "all my friends are guys" types of girl.

The stuff I have seen from them that might look 'toxic' are:

  1. They really cannot do monogamy. They just aren't built for it

  2. They really are sleeping with all their guy friends. It's not just suspicion... they actually are! They are more open about it than any kind of girl, but they will still lie about it if they are dating a guy they think can't take it

  3. They don't have the kind of normal womanly behavior most women engage in. I've refrained from dating any girls like this, but from what I've observed of their relationships it looks a lot like dating a dude with a vagina

  4. There's really no sensual/flirtatious courtship build-up either. You just hang out with them until you're alone somewhere and they decide "Okay, we can fuck" and you do

I can't imagine wanting a relationship with a girl like this. But so long as you aren't trying to do an LTR where she's supposed to be monogamous to you, they can be pretty fun. You can talk to them about stuff you cannot talk to normal women about... e.g., my good female "all my friends are guys" friend thought it was so great, my involvement with the pickup community, back when I still talked about that sometimes with women... every 'normal' chick who knew about it hated it.

They're not really any good as wingwomen IME, just because other women seem to find them so threatening... the girl is SO chummy and familiar with you, how can any girl compete with THAT?

I do feel bad for the guys who hang around them hoping for relationships. They will actually hook up with those guys, then refuse to enter into an LTR. The guys get really confused. I have seen multiple of their "guys they are fucking" get really frustrated because they're trying to get monogamy from the girl but she's not having it. When they are telling you about how the guy is trying to get them to be monogamous but they told him they just want FWB it's kind of sadly comical, especially if you know the guy and see how salty he is day-to-day (and now you know why!).

So, I would say: if you want monogamy, they may seem toxic. Because they can't really do that.

Otherwise, probably fine I guess... but from what I have seen it's going to be like dating a dude.

Maybe some guys are into that. I always see guys complaining about why women are so frustrating, so annoying, why can't they be more direct, they don't want to put up with female BS anymore... these high-T chicks are possibly the ideal woman for such a man (* with a little asterisk that they won't be exclusive relationships. Depending on the guy, that price of admission might well be worth it for him to not have to put up with other womanly behaviors he can't stand).

Chase
Agreed with everything

Especially the part about them going for safer guys in LTR

Would you consider them cluster B girls too?
 

PaulieFlyn10

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Could be BS. Could be a socially acceptable pretext for her behaviour.
It could also be that there is "some truth" to it, namely that she has tons of drama with girls. But when, the question is, what is the source of this drama? If you start digging you may find many skeletons.

-Teevster
Yes for 3 girls i asked there were some skeletons. I was fucking them and held a non - judgemental plus low key/discrete frame, probably that's why the opened up a lot

The first one, had issues with her friends cuz they suspected her of going for their bfs. In one case, she slept with her friend's ex. And had a make out with his younger brother

She's also very attractive so gets attention more than her friends. All of these caused her friends to cast her out, say bad things about her to the point she attempted suicide. She also has a forced sex fantasy and bi curious (promised her she'll have her first lesbian experience in a threesome with me)

The second one is bi. Always complains about how no one loves her. Including her former friends.
Told me her friends her always jealous bla bla. Plus her bio says "i want to love a man sooo bad!!! But I'm bipolar disorder" She has also admitted being bpd to me before

So yeah I feel when the drama issue is legit, she really has some skeletons.

Though i do some validation seeking and cluster b traits
 
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Teevster

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Yes for 3 girls i asked there were some skeletons. I was fucking them and held a non - judgemental plus low key/discrete frame, probably that's why the opened up a lot

And as they open up you are like "oh shit".... :eek::eek::eek:

The first one, had issues with her friends cuz they suspected her of going for their bfs. In one case, she slept with her friend's ex. And had a make out with his younger brother

But it is her friend's fault to suspect her right????

She's also very attractive so gets attention more than her friends. All of these caused her friends to cast her out, say bad things about her to the point she attempted suicide. She also has a forced sex fantasy and bi curious (promised her she'll have her first lesbian experience in a threesome with me)

It all falls into place:

1. Tons of male friends
2. Covert Narc ("it is not my fault")
3. Suicidal (could also be an attention crap "feel sorry for me please" - if so covert narcs, if not BPD - nevertheless cluster B)

These girls are nuts but will give you the sex of your life. They tend to be extremely charismatic and have this special vibe about them - mix of sexy and sweet feminine. Very dangerous.

The second one is bi. Always complains about how no one loves her. Including her former friends.
Told me her friends her always jealous bla bla. Plus her bio says "i want to love a man sooo bad!!! But I'm bipolar disorder" She has also admitted being bpd to me before

Another textbook example:
1. Tons of male friends
2. Covert Narc ("it is not my fault")
3. "Poor me, nobody likes me, feel sorry for me please" (covert Narc attention whoring, or BPD, but this one is a clear covert Narc - but she can be both)
4. Another red flag are those that overly open about their mental disorders....

Let me guess? she parties hard and love MDMA/coke?

If you didn't know, the standard the definition of narcicism that we use in society usually refers to explicit narcisism more commonly found in men. Women tend to express narcisism covertly, also known as covert narcisism and it looks very different to how men expresses it and it is an under-discussed phenomenon (wonder why? perhaps doesn't fit with the "woman sweet, good and strong" vs "bad men dominating women" narrative).

-Teevster
 

Teevster

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A lot of women also grow out of this. Only a few actually turn lesbian:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2d882y
The majority of the descriptions are the same: "At first I was so tomboy... then I discovered I liked [pink/skirts/heels/boys/etc.]."



















Here's a pic of a former tomboy from that thread, who got married, presumably to a man.

A few of them talk about never having really grown out of it.







A handful went lesbo.



Also from that Reddit thread, relevant to the OP:







I like the 'former tomboy girls' myself.

They're always bicurious, too. But every girl is, so...

Chase

Ok you got me :)

-Teevster
 

Will_V

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I've known a few that seem to fit that mold, sexually they don't respond all that well to just the typical masculine frame (since they probably feel a bit like a dude anyway), and tend to be most open to either guys who have a more ambiguous, self-absorbed kind of confidence, or exotic dudes.

The main problem is that they don't really seem to understand how to maneuver a man psychologically, but instead will get aggressive and competitive in conflict. And because they are female, their masculine personality clashes with their biology which causes a lot of drama mixed with rough/kinky sex.

They can do well in a relationship as long as they have clear rules and are given plenty of room to be semi-independent, but they won't be as nurturing as a guy might want.
 

PaulieFlyn10

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And as they open up you are like "oh shit".... :eek::eek::eek:



But it is her friend's fault to suspect her right????



It all falls into place:

1. Tons of male friends
2. Covert Narc ("it is not my fault")
3. Suicidal (could also be an attention crap "feel sorry for me please" - if so covert narcs, if not BPD - nevertheless cluster B)

These girls are nuts but will give you the sex of your life. They tend to be extremely charismatic and have this special vibe about them - mix of sexy and sweet feminine. Very dangerous.



Another textbook example:
1. Tons of male friends
2. Covert Narc ("it is not my fault")
3. "Poor me, nobody likes me, feel sorry for me please" (covert Narc attention whoring, or BPD, but this one is a clear covert Narc - but she can be both)
4. Another red flag are those that overly open about their mental disorders....

Let me guess? she parties hard and love MDMA/coke?

If you didn't know, the standard the definition of narcicism that we use in society usually refers to explicit narcisism more commonly found in men. Women tend to express narcisism covertly, also known as covert narcisism and it looks very different to how men expresses it and it is an under-discussed phenomenon (wonder why? perhaps doesn't fit with the "woman sweet, good and strong" vs "bad men dominating women" narrative).

-Teevster

Yeah lol... the non judgemental and discreet frame i learnt from you is probably one of the biggest aspects of being a lover. I used to do it subconsciously before sparingly but i became more determined with it and used it more especially seeing how & why it worked from your posts. And the things you hear from girls are unbelievable

I tried so hard not to tell her "well that's why they don't like you sweetie" 🤣

Exactly... she's (the first one) just as you described. Very charismatic, sweet feminine energy. And her eyes are sexy af. She gets guys wanting her in minutes and a ton of friend zoned and brother zoned guys. As for the sex, she's Always willing to please me. She's still young and not that experienced (18) so she usually tells me to rate her over 10.

I almost fell for her but the cluster B article by Drexel snapped me back in an instant. I basically saw her in that article. Just a lesser experienced versiom

The 2nd one hasn't gone that far with coke but she parties ALOT. Smokes ALOT. And drinks ALOT


Yeah covert narcissism is definitely common with women. I should read up more on this. If you have any articles please let me know. I see a potential increase in covert narcissism among gen z in the age of IG, tik tok etc
 

orkie123

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I've always wondered - are people with less value/options more prone to seek honesty / being up-front? I don't like blaming genders because I think it's all related. E.g., an average girl is a lot higher value than an average guy so they can benefit more from being dishonest. I.e. what's a guy who just about got a gf going to benefit by lying if he can't get another girl anyway. Yet as a man becomes in the top x%, the tables turn and then it's the guys who benefit more from dishonesty. Men don't want to improve yet still crave girls, girls don't need to improve cos they can get guys without trying and you have an infinite cycle of low quality people.

Anytime a person says their honest in real life - to me it translates to "low value". Maybe it's because those qualities are better shown than told but it feels like anyone who shares that is because they've been hurt by someone and are thus now bitter about it. So maybe I'm only honest cos I'm not where I want to be in life.

I also don't completely agree with not being friends with any girls. It's great insight into how some girls truly are. I meet up with a female friend every once in a while who is seeking an "honest man" and yet she literally wouldn't date anyone who doesn't have model looks. She is average at best so makes me laugh at how unrealistic her expectations are. Another female friend, she is dating a cool dude who I do feel a little sorry for. Even though I don't think she has cheated yet, she has started destroying his frame and is already got options to branch off to if the time comes. She doesn't even realise she is doing it. I'm friends with her because those are her problems and she knows all the cool clubs and places to go to, getting us free entry/drinks etc. She's also a fun person to be around, often making it easier to approach other girls.

That said, I've yet to find a girl who I'm friends with, that I would date long term. This was something I realised with my ex too. Without the intimate connection and life goals, I wouldn't want to be her friend even if I had never been involved with her. It's like, if she would be friends with a guy with whom she can connect to such a level without wanting a relationship, then I don't consider her dating material.
 

HoofHearted

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One explanation though is that... the only men willing to become one of their "male buddies" (when ever a girl talks about "buddies", I see red flags everywhere) are low value guys, usually no life losers. They are not the "high value" men most women seek.

Categorically true, the men I have seen in this context are losing the game so bad that they don't even understand that they are losing. I feel bad for them, but the times in my life I have tried to help... have not helped...

Conversely, being in the middle of a swirl of female competition might actually be something I live for.

I guess I'm actually all for being surrounded by riled up hordes of beautiful women. But this is my sickness. I wouldnt wish this disease upon any of you
 

Chase

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@Teevster,

Seems like there is a distinction to be tone here:

1. High testo girls - Tomboyish girls.
2. The feminine covert narc chick.

I had the second one in mind when making this post and the second one always, without exception, have no education, suffer from psychological illness: "depression" (oh and she will use that reel her "male friends" in). They almost always drug abuse.

Regarding the high testo girl, I have limited experience in recent time as I have not slept with that many lately. I tend to like feminine looking girls. So you may be right about everything you and others mention, however, they are not the girls I initially had in mind. I think the distinction I just presented is therefore crucial.

I don't mind guys discussing both types here.

-Teevster

Yes, you're right. At first I was a bit confused about the toxic relationship part... I was thinking about the high-T girls though.

There are also the girly girls who just keep massive numbers of orbiters and always have super dramatic relationships, where they are still going out, surrounded by guys, the boyfriend is constantly mate-guarding them, and it's just a mess.

I haven't picked the brains of any of those girls to understand them more deeply. Did have one I ran The Cube on once who told me the storm was over the cube and striking it with lightning bolts, lol. I have known some who were Bachelor's degree holders. But the ones with no education are in a special camp of crazy. I met one of these chicks off online once and she was living with six dudes. Another I picked up in a club lived with four dudes. Both were extremely hot and totally nuts. Neither had any education.

I didn't dive too deep into their backgrounds beyond that, but both these "living with tons of dudes" chicks had a lot of stereotypical BPD girl characteristics. Probably if a girl is behaving this extreme she's somewhere on the Cluster B spectrum.

Ok you got me :)

-Teevster

lol, my bad. Social etiquette breach!

I should've just posted the link.

Then I was like "Here are some cool quotes. I should post them for posterity, since every web page disappears like 3-8 years later."

Then posted some. Then posted some more.

Probably went a bit overboard there.

Chase
 

Toby2030

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The fear of abandonment is spot on. I have noticed the same. But again, this fear is usually linked to BPD and covert narcisism
I used to know a good chunk of girls just like this with more or less, only male friends. Years later, all of them have been diagnosed with BPD. I also know these girls either had a bad relationship with their father or didn't have a father in their life.
 
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