Why do indirect approaches feel sneaky

[AngryMan]

I work as customer service so I interact with lots of women at work but I’ve noticed this in every setting that isn’t strictly clubbing or something equivalent.

Every time I hit it off with a girl and there is chemistry, I really feel bad about doing an approach. It almost feels like I’m injecting my penis into a pure, wholesome human interaction.

I realize this is probably rationalizion for poor self-esteem but I feel shitty about asking out a women I’ve established a connection with randomly talking about random stuff. I’ve fumbled so many opportunities exactly because I couldn’t believe women were interested as opposed to just being nice when they clearly were in hindsight. My trouble is picking out and noticing IOIs in real time.

My question is this: does it always feel sneaky and rude to chat up someone, get them to a hook point where they’re into the conversation and then asking them out? What are things I can do to be more direct without coming across as too intense?

 

[Police dog]

What are things I can do to be more direct without coming across as too intense?

There are many articles in this site about it. But more important for you now is to reprogram your brain, because particular techniques are much easier to learn once you have this. Basically, you need to overcome your internalized social shame of male sexuality. You feel this way because you believe that offering girls sex (and your penis) is something rude and unacceptable, and women are some pure angels who only like nice friendly conversations. Very controversial advice but you can start with hookers. Never used one myself but know couple guys who did back in middle/high school. The good thing about it is that you can do whatever you want to their bodies (you can always get one who doesn’t mind kinky stuff like face slapping, hot wax, etc) and once you seen few girls in this state and realize that all of them are like that it would be much easier for you to accept the reality (which means there is nothing wrong with offering them your dick). If you take the “normal” route, try to make them do as much dirty things as possible, the ones that you would deem unimaginable - e.g, during sex ask them to eat your ass, you would be surprised how many girls are into this (albeit many of them also want to stick their fingers in there which I don’t like but be ready for this), choke them, spit on their face. After even one such experience your perception of them will change drastically.

 

[AngryMan]

There are many articles in this site about it. But more important for you now is to reprogram your brain, because particular techniques are much easier to learn once you have this. Basically, you need to overcome your internalized social shame of male sexuality. You feel this way because you believe that offering girls sex (and your penis) is something rude and unacceptable, and women are some pure angels who only like nice friendly conversations.

I come from a very religious strict background. There are lots of things I’ve internalized about women and sexuality but probably the biggest one is that only men benefit from casual sex.

The problem actually goes deeper for me because I feel bad about even thinking about sex while having these interactions. I’m convinced I’m giving off a vibe of fake sincerity because I’m quite friendly and expressive on the outside but sex is really all that occupies my mind internally.

I think I will go direct from now on and see how it goes. If it’s just scaring people away then I might try to introduce more subtlety and hopefully it won’t feel manipulative or rude.

 

[DarkKnight]

You feel self conscious and not ALLOWED to be a player.

For now lose the self consciousness and just fake it till you make it.

Your religion and society has instilt you to feel guilt.

To your second question. I feel absolutely natural and relaxed when cold approaching as I have done this too many times to not feel normal about it

 

[Zoro]

I work as customer service so I interact with lots of women at work but I’ve noticed this in every setting that isn’t strictly clubbing or something equivalent.

Every time I hit it off with a girl and there is chemistry, I really feel bad about doing an approach. It almost feels like I’m injecting my penis into a pure, wholesome human interaction.

I realize this is probably rationalizion for poor self-esteem but I feel shitty about asking out a women I’ve established a connection with randomly talking about random stuff. I’ve fumbled so many opportunities exactly because I couldn’t believe women were interested as opposed to just being nice when they clearly were in hindsight. My trouble is picking out and noticing IOIs in real time.

My question is this: does it always feel sneaky and rude to chat up someone, get them to a hook point where they’re into the conversation and then asking them out? What are things I can do to be more direct without coming across as too intense?

An indirect approach can still be flirty and subtly sexy. I think what you’re feeling is that your indirect approaches are devoid of intent and flirting, so when you ask her out it does feel like a shock because there was no indication of your interest.

We are talking body language and subtle communication here, not just words.

 

[DarkKnight]

I think what you’re feeling is that your indirect approaches are devoid of intent and flirting, so when you ask her out it does feel like a shock because there was no indication of your interest

I believe he is struggling with guilt, not yet the girls reactions. I know guys like this stifled by religion and conditioning, feels like they are betraying everything that was thought to them.

There is some dissonance here which needs to be gone through and a bit of changing of the identity.

I have trained some guys out of this behavior and mentored them but a lot of them still fall back to the old conditioned behaviors. Never really free.

 

[Spyce D]

Assuming that you are only talking about directional ones .

I went indirect a lot .

It got weird for me cuz the more I approached chicks , the more I plateued cuz I wasn't conveying my desires so I ended up switching to indirect - direct and now I am going to switch to direct .


Indirect can work .... depending on if I use something creative / situational

 

[AngryMan]

An indirect approach can still be flirty and subtly sexy. I think what you’re feeling is that your indirect approaches are devoid of intent and flirting, so when you ask her out it does feel like a shock because there was no indication of your interest.

We are talking body language and subtle communication here, not just words.

I think you’re right. I’m kind of shit at flirting but actually somewhat decent at keeping the sort of sexy eye contact women enjoy. I just can’t do other flirting stuff in the background while keeping the conversation effortless and without tension. The conversations themselves are engaging but like you say not a whole lot different to a meaningful interaction with a random guy.

I’m thinking I can probably leverage the sexy eye contact more. Maybe ask qualifying questions that illuminate my intentions a little bit more. My worry is bringing the conversation to an abrupt end by going too direct and putting them on the spot without first fishing for some IOIs. That’s partly why I’m uncomfortable to ask for their number in the end.

Am I wrong to fish for IOIs mid conversation before directly asking them out or should I forget about that and just treat it as a prolonged direct approach that could either way.

 

[AngryMan]

I believe he is struggling with guilt, not yet the girls reactions. I know guys like this stifled by religion and conditioning, feels like they are betraying everything that was thought to them.

There is some dissonance here which needs to be gone through and a bit of changing of the identity.

I have trained some guys out of this behavior and mentored them but a lot of them still fall back to the old conditioned behaviors. Never really free.

If you don’t mind sharing, what things have you taught these guys that they found temporarily helpful?

 

[AngryMan]

Assuming that you are only talking about directional ones .

I went indirect a lot .

It got weird for me cuz the more I approached chicks , the more I plateued cuz I wasn't conveying my desires so I ended up switching to indirect - direct and now I am going to switch to direct .


Indirect can work .... depending on if I use something creative / situational

so you just use a situational prob and then immediately go direct? The conversations I’m referring to can last anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes depending on the setting and situation. I almost never just walk up to a random girl going about her day and strike up a convo. Mine are more people I meet in events and places like parks or libraries.

I think my problem is trying to game the conversation so I don’t get rejected a lot which means I end up doing long conversations that attempt to decipher interest but sometimes they’re too innocent and it feels rude to switch it up.

 

[DarkKnight]

If you don’t mind sharing, what things have you taught these guys that they found temporarily helpful?

I had more exposure to these guys as they were friends so they had time to be exposed to my shenenigans which made it more normal.

But to a newb I would just say that they have to fake it until they make it and through the journey the dissonancr will solve itself. Basically just tell them.to take it from the top.

Just go through the movements for one or two years and revisit the dissonance after those years. A lot of them will have solved th3mselves through exposure and through doing new things which becomes your identity and solves congruence

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Indirect approaches feel sneaky because of what I coined the "Pickup Line Paradox".

We know mens' arousal is like a light switch (can be flipped on pretty quickly) whereas women's arousal is more like a light dimmer (needs to be turned up gradually with foreplay).

The same is true with the initial pickup. Men think of it as a light switch ("I just need the right line") whereas women think of it as a light dimmer ("I wanna talk to him for a while to see how I feel about him").

That's why phone numbers turn solid around the 25 minute mark. Numbers you get quickly will have a pretty high flake percentage.

So look at a pickup from a female perspective. You don't walk up with your winning move (a direct opener). You initiate a chat and talk to her for 20 minutes, and after that time if your presentation is solid, she will like you.

It's not sneaky to initiate a conversation with a stranger, befriend them and then hit on them AFTER they already like you. It's just smart. Hitting on a girl BEFORE she likes you is unintelligent (or just coasting on looks + a numbers game).

The pickup line paradox then, is this: Guys think the pickup is about the first minute, whereas girls think it's about the first 20 minutes. So guys come up with these strong opening salvos, be it direct openers in the case of PUAs, or cheesy pickup lines in the case of amateurs.

Then girls react negatively, because they need the light dimmer, not the light switch, and guys see their wrong idea confirmed: Oh, I knew I needed a better line, this one wasn't good enough.

Stop thinking of indirect game as picking her up and instead think of it as "initiating a chat" and things will go over much more smoothly and naturally.

 

[AngryMan]

Indirect approaches feel sneaky because of what I coined the "Pickup Line Paradox".

We know mens' arousal is like a light switch (can be flipped on pretty quickly) whereas women's arousal is more like a light dimmer (needs to be turned up gradually with foreplay).

The same is true with the initial pickup. Men think of it as a light switch ("I just need the right line") whereas women think of it as a light dimmer ("I wanna talk to him for a while to see how I feel about him").

That's why phone numbers turn solid around the 25 minute mark. Numbers you get quickly will have a pretty high flake percentage.

So look at a pickup from a female perspective. You don't walk up with your winning move (a direct opener). You initiate a chat and talk to her for 20 minutes, and after that time if your presentation is solid, she will like you.

It's not sneaky to initiate a conversation with a stranger, befriend them and then hit on them AFTER they already like you. It's just smart. Hitting on a girl BEFORE she likes you is unintelligent (or just coasting on looks + a numbers game).

The pickup line paradox then, is this: Guys think the pickup is about the first minute, whereas girls think it's about the first 20 minutes. So guys come up with these strong opening salvos, be it direct openers in the case of PUAs, or cheesy pickup lines in the case of amateurs.

Then girls react negatively, because they need the light dimmer, not the light switch, and guys see their wrong idea confirmed: Oh, I knew I needed a better line, this one wasn't good enough.

Stop thinking of indirect game as picking her up and instead think of it as "initiating a chat" and things will go over much more smoothly and naturally.

This is a perspective I haven’t really considered. I think I can probably find a balance where I’m direct but not too direct to the point it is a pointed question. Like have a nice chat but make interest clear so she can feel you around for chemistry/compatibility.

 

[James D]

Indirect approaches feel sneaky because of what I coined the "Pickup Line Paradox".

We know mens' arousal is like a light switch (can be flipped on pretty quickly) whereas women's arousal is more like a light dimmer (needs to be turned up gradually with foreplay).

The same is true with the initial pickup. Men think of it as a light switch ("I just need the right line") whereas women think of it as a light dimmer ("I wanna talk to him for a while to see how I feel about him").

That's why phone numbers turn solid around the 25 minute mark. Numbers you get quickly will have a pretty high flake percentage.

So look at a pickup from a female perspective. You don't walk up with your winning move (a direct opener). You initiate a chat and talk to her for 20 minutes, and after that time if your presentation is solid, she will like you.

It's not sneaky to initiate a conversation with a stranger, befriend them and then hit on them AFTER they already like you. It's just smart. Hitting on a girl BEFORE she likes you is unintelligent (or just coasting on looks + a numbers game).

The pickup line paradox then, is this: Guys think the pickup is about the first minute, whereas girls think it's about the first 20 minutes. So guys come up with these strong opening salvos, be it direct openers in the case of PUAs, or cheesy pickup lines in the case of amateurs.

Then girls react negatively, because they need the light dimmer, not the light switch, and guys see their wrong idea confirmed: Oh, I knew I needed a better line, this one wasn't good enough.

Stop thinking of indirect game as picking her up and instead think of it as "initiating a chat" and things will go over much more smoothly and naturally.

One of the best things I've read on the forum

 

[Gladiator]

I think my problem is trying to game the conversation so I don’t get rejected a lot which means I end up doing long conversations that attempt to decipher interest but sometimes they’re too innocent and it feels rude to switch it up.

There's already enough info but just my 2 cents on what you said here. I'll take a very basic example but you can direct a conversation in a million ways. Imagine your conversation goes something like this:

...
You: I'm guessing you must be adventurous
She: I don't think so.. what do you mean by adventurous?
You: it can be anything which you do that gives you an adrenaline rush.. and things that you do spontaneously also counts..
She: No, I don't think I'm adventurous
You: ok. What are your quirks then?
She: I don't think I have any quirks..
You: You must have something.. for example, walking around naked at home (saying this with a mischievous smile and strong eye-contact) or singing in the bathroom loudly that your neighbours can hear etc

Blah blah blah

Does this conversation sound normal? Do you think if you ask her number after this, she is so innocent that she would still not think you imagined her naked?

Indirect doesn't mean platonic. It just means you have not expressed SOI (Statement of interest) verbally.

 

[AngryMan]

There's already enough info but just my 2 cents on what you said here. I'll take a very basic example but you can direct a conversation in a million ways. Imagine your conversation goes something like this:

...
You: I'm guessing you must be adventurous
She: I don't think so.. what do you mean by adventurous?
You: it can be anything which you do that gives you an adrenaline rush.. and things that you do spontaneously also counts..
She: No, I don't think I'm adventurous
You: ok. What are your quirks then?
She: I don't think I have any quirks..
You: You must have something.. for example, walking around naked at home (saying this with a mischievous smile and strong eye-contact) or singing in the bathroom loudly that your neighbours can hear etc

Blah blah blah

Does this conversation sound normal? Do you think if you ask her number after this, she is so innocent that she would still not think you imagined her naked?

Indirect doesn't mean platonic. It just means you have not expressed SOI (Statement of interest) verbally.

I appreciate your response. it’s funny because I had two memorable interactions this week and this first one I was way too physical and touchy whereas the second one that prompted this post I was trying to keep things light.

When you don’t know how to flirt it is easy to overdo it or not do it enough which is where I’m at. Just need more practice and exposure but I’ll keep your advice in mind. Thanks