Why is opening so difficult to master

Rakehell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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I find it funny how arguably the easiest part of the mating process to achieve is also the most difficult to master. If you were to plot out seduction in a linear way and tally out each part by # of times done, it’s safe to say that opening would be the most done part.

So just by trial and error you would think that everyone would be masters of opening women. YET it seems like it’s the most easily forgotten part in the learning process.

Atleast for me.
 

ulrich

Cro-Magnon Man
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It’s the most wildly variable part of a seduction.

In high automated factories, one of the key activities is to ensure suppliers deliver standardized supplies.

In highly optimized sales processes, proper qualification of leads at the start of the funnel is required.

Basically, nothing can be optimized without a quality filter in its input.
No standardized input means standardized output is impossible.
 

fog

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right, theres a lot of variables involved...

lots of guys out there open in all sorts of different environments, with different openers. i think when youre learning to open, its better to reduce the variables ie focus on the same environment with the same opener. you'll get results much faster. then once you've mastered that, move on to a new environment with a new opener.

of course, its not as simple as choosing an opener and an environment. theres a ton of other variables to consider:

• stationary [standing or sitting]
• stationary or moving
• her interest in you. did she give you an AI?
• her mood
• her level of attention to the environment
• her current activity. reading, on her phone, digging around in her purse, etc
• whether shes solo or with a group.
• the environment [relaxing or hectic]
• your opener. is it low, medium, or high interest. target centred vs speaker centered.
• your fundamentals and state
• your non-verbal expressiveness. are you using expressive vocal tones and facial expressions? do you seem stimulated? are you using head and/or body swivels along with your openers?
 

Terms

Space Monkey
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The average person is much better at closing than opening. I see cold opens as the hardest part of the process and the one that's the least essential and the easiest to skip and still get laid.

Most people work off of warm opens, now and in the past. They meet people through their social circles, or get introduced to someone, or, more recently, meet on dating apps where rejections aren't ever felt and things are warm by the time you're face to face. Thus, they get good at game from the point of interest -> close, but don't get so great at getting interest to begin with when it isn't already there.
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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I find it funny how arguably the easiest part of the mating process to achieve is also the most difficult to master. If you were to plot out seduction in a linear way and tally out each part by # of times done, it’s safe to say that opening would be the most done part.
Opening is like the first goomba in Mario Bros. 1.

It does nothing but walk in a straight line.

A competent player will almost never be killed by it.

But with 60 million copies sold plus bootlegs, it has killed hundreds of millions of people. Possibly billions of people!

FEL3Bek.png
 
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HentaiSamurai

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Why?

Because guys focus on it too much and put too much pressure on it being successful. It's like driving a car, you have to look out into the distance at where you want to be. If you look down at the ground immediately below you, you'll crash.

Guys also think if the open doesn't work, they're being rejected. Opening should be viewed as information gathering. You're dropping an invitation for a conversation and seeing if people are open to accepting it or not. It has little to do with rejection.

Trying to think of something to say is also a problem. Opening should essentially be your stream of consciousness verbalized out loud rather than you trying to think of something new to say.

Finally, the pickup community fucked opening by training every guy to go direct. This made the opener canned and disingenuous on top of killing guys' abilities to be a normal fucking human and make normal observations about their immediate surroundings.
 

DonGately

Cro-Magnon Man
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Agreed, I think indirect often works much better.
The intermediate/advanced step is to have a look/persona/place on lock so chicks will open you.

The best advice for anyone needing help with opening is get good at rambling. Many others have said this but it's 1000% true.
 

Bosman66

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Opening is the easiest part. You can say mostly anything, women don’t care.

I’ve said the dumbest shit to women and got results. Honestly they don’t care, just say something. Anything. If they like you, they like you.

Or just say hello…
 

West_Indian_Archie

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I find it funny how arguably the easiest part of the mating process to achieve is also the most difficult to master.

Interesting idea - on a scale of pick up skills, imo
  • Consistently getting absolute strangers to get into a good conversation with you - 7
  • Building Trust with an absolute stranger - 8
  • Closing a stranger you only met 3 hours ago - 9
  • Creating a relationship with that stranger that you essentially have control over indefinitely - 10 (mono, MLTR, soft polygamy, hard polygamy, ONS, FWBS, FBs, etc)
"Instructor" level game - zero hesitation/great improvisation with the words and situation - is something that comes from doing it a lot, teaching it, and seeing a lot of it at the low level and high level.

Cause a lot of how well opening goes is related to all the prior steps before hand, in addition to executing the opening.

The Prior Steps - Most guys coming into pick up
  • Need to step up their hygiene game, grooming game, and lack of muscles
  • Don't even know where to meet girls they might want to hook up with/date
  • Are not aware of their emotional/self esteem issues
  • Have not dealt with their emotional/self esteem issues in a long term way
  • Afraid to start conversations with strangers
  • Afraid to have deep/tense/conflict conversations with people they know
  • Might not raise their hands in class
  • Might not return something to a physical store
  • Might not return a plate of food
  • Unwilling to learn how to dance
  • Decry everything popular (except of course for video games/anime/and other forms of nerd culture)
  • Don't know conduct themselves in interview (and would not know how to hold an interview)
  • Have never sold anything in their lives.
  • Can't read faces, body language, can't read social situations. They don't understand tone of voice.
In terms of social skills, what it takes to be the most popular guy in class, at the job, on the team - they lack.

Of course opening is hard.

Opening sits at the top of a mountain of basic and intermediate social skills.

They can actively listen. They can hold a debate about things esoteric. They can be logical and use reason. And that's it. And those skills don't translate directly to opening to pickup.

I had to learn how to do a lot of these things, because they were not things I did all the time.

The average cute girl that we are after?
  • She makes friends wherever she goes.
  • She knows her appearance affects her treatment, and will tone some things done and play somethings up
  • She has ZERO problems asking for things, asking for total strangers to do things for her.
  • She is very aware of micro-reactions, facial expressions, body language, and taking the temperature of a room
  • She often talks to her family members and girlfriends about what things mean, and how to maneuver in her social group.
  • More than most guys, she knows what she brings to the table. (She often tries to bring other things that guys don't care about though)
  • Even if she can't dance, she can dance.
  • She will bargain, take things back, send plates back.
  • She will offend, insult, slight, mock, and tease - and then act surprised when called on it
  • She will persuade, compliment, schmooze - and otherwise run circles around people.
So what a lot of newbs deal with is coming to an algebra test, graded by a PhD in mathematics, when they can barely count.

There are some guys that have all the foundational social skills down - the last pieces of the puzzle is a 1) structured way to talk to girls. 2) The will to do it. Most guys are deathly afraid of showing a girl any sort of sexual interest, much less the world - despite that being the thing they are after.

All that to say is that pick up is not easy. Guys used to have more of the foundational skills because as a species we had to communicate with each other more. So I'm seeing a lot of guys online that need to double down on the basics and intermediates (giving a talk to a group of people is an intermediate skill, whereas talking to a crowd, a hostile one would be an advanced skill)

All this stuff is easy to forget, or easy to catch yourself in some self doubt. You know what to do, you've done it a thousand times, but making those first few approaches can feel like pulling teeth.

But I tend to remember the times that I hesitate more than the times where my game falls flat tbh.
Good topic!

WIA
 

DonGately

Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
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'She is very aware of micro-reactions, facial expressions, body language, and taking the temperature of a room'

Yeah, 8th grade girls have mastered this at a level 10x higher than your average 25yr old man who usually:
can't talk to a stranger, and/or
gives off terrible body language, [wants to be open but keeps arms folded across chest, etc] and/or
cannot read body language, and
if the topic the girl raises isn't something he's expert on cannot hold a conversation.

And then those guys wonder why the hot 20-somethings they meet are often going out with guys 10-25 years older [who do have those skills].

Another top-notch post by WIA ^^^^^^^
 

Rakehell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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683
All this stuff is easy to forget, or easy to catch yourself in some self doubt. You know what to do, you've done it a thousand times, but making those first few approaches can feel like pulling teeth.

But I tend to remember the times that I hesitate more than the times where my game falls flat tbh.
Good topic!

WIA
All great points. But this part is exactly what I’m referring to.

I find myself having to relearn how to open the right way, after taking breaks. On top of that accumulating more mental barriers to opening in general that need to be deweeded.

In contrast the rest of the stuff that I do seems to be more or less ingrained.
 

West_Indian_Archie

Tribal Elder
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Messages
375
I find myself having to relearn how to open the right way, after taking breaks.

Part of the process of going from zero to hero/chump to champ is that we are making pick up skills part of our being.

I'm not saying you need to run game on the Bus Driver, but make being social part of your life. The more you do it casually, the less you need to worry about "turning it on".

Cause the norm for guys learning pick up, is that they have their Normal Persona (no energy) and and then they switch to their Pick Up God persona (lots of energy of to do, but not necessarily bouncing around like a 6 year old hopped up on candy.).

One has to get from being drained by social interaction, drained by pick up, to charged up by social interaction.
From introvert to extrovert.

WFH + the Pandemic has atrophied my social muscles. But for me to get back to where I was, I'm gonna have to do a lot of work, but also change my lifestyle.

WIA
 

Starboy

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485
Part of the process of going from zero to hero/chump to champ is that we are making pick up skills part of our being.

I'm not saying you need to run game on the Bus Driver, but make being social part of your life. The more you do it casually, the less you need to worry about "turning it on".

Cause the norm for guys learning pick up, is that they have their Normal Persona (no energy) and and then they switch to their Pick Up God persona (lots of energy of to do, but not necessarily bouncing around like a 6 year old hopped up on candy.).

One has to get from being drained by social interaction, drained by pick up, to charged up by social interaction.
From introvert to extrovert.

WFH + the Pandemic has atrophied my social muscles. But for me to get back to where I was, I'm gonna have to do a lot of work, but also change my lifestyle.

WIA
Do you have any suggestions on how to make this transformation or could point me in the right direction because this sums me up perfectly. I'm capable of being social,witty ,flirty with women, giving value to people whether they are men or women that are strangers to me or regulars I encounter.
It feels like it's not who I am naturally. The path of least resistance is to lean towards staying the more introverted passive guy ,but that bears infinetly less social rewards. Tired of having to force my way to interacting with people when I have the potential to being the social king.
 

Don Giovanni

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
286
of course, its not as simple as choosing an opener and an environment. theres a ton of other variables to consider:

• stationary [standing or sitting]
• stationary or moving
• her interest in you. did she give you an AI?
• her mood
• her level of attention to the environment
• her current activity. reading, on her phone, digging around in her purse, etc
• whether shes solo or with a group.
• the environment [relaxing or hectic]
• your opener. is it low, medium, or high interest. target centred vs speaker centered.
• your fundamentals and state
• your non-verbal expressiveness. are you using expressive vocal tones and facial expressions? do you seem stimulated? are you using head and/or body swivels along with your openers?
This exactly.

I’ve been going to the same venue for a while now and more or less figured out how to open there, what is going to be said in first min after the opener. I know where is the best place in the venue to open, what kind of people come there and what’s their interest. How direct you can go and so on and so on.

Then I go one day and try do a couple of day game street approaches just for fun and realize I suck at them. COMPLETELY different dynamic. I also don’t have that high opening ratios in other more dance orientated venues.

It’s not just street/ bar/ club, day game/ night game, every situation is different. But so it’s in game in general I guess.
 

Rakehell

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Joined
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Messages
683
Part of the process of going from zero to hero/chump to champ is that we are making pick up skills part of our being.

I'm not saying you need to run game on the Bus Driver, but make being social part of your life. The more you do it casually, the less you need to worry about "turning it on".

Cause the norm for guys learning pick up, is that they have their Normal Persona (no energy) and and then they switch to their Pick Up God persona (lots of energy of to do, but not necessarily bouncing around like a 6 year old hopped up on candy.).

One has to get from being drained by social interaction, drained by pick up, to charged up by social interaction.
From introvert to extrovert.

WFH + the Pandemic has atrophied my social muscles. But for me to get back to where I was, I'm gonna have to do a lot of work, but also change my lifestyle.

WIA
Thanks WIA
 

Beck Bass

Cro-Magnon Man
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Messages
635
Finally, the pickup community fucked opening by training every guy to go direct. This made the opener canned and disingenuous on top of killing guys' abilities to be a normal fucking human and make normal observations about their immediate surroundings.
Yeah but nah, direct doesn't mean freaking all-in, the "I MUST GET YOU NOOOW" some guys seem to understand as "direct". There's no problem going direct if the situation allows you to do it, in fact it can be a stronger opener in many situations, is just that going in and telling a chick she's fine and you wanna bang her it's not exactly great game by itself, kino is extremely important in this and knowing how to gauge her reaction and play accordingly afterwards... (and know if she's open to be opened like that in the first place as well, and what to do if she isn't).

Because guys focus on it too much and put too much pressure on it being successful. It's like driving a car, you have to look out into the distance at where you want to be. If you look down at the ground immediately below you, you'll crash.
Yeah, people tilt themselves out of a good opener, instead of just doing it. It's like skating or riding a bike, if you never done, or "haven't done in a while" (like forgot how to do it), you will hesitate too much and fuck up just for being nervous or out of fear (though certainly there's some skill in all of that, it's all straight forward)
 

Rakkum

Cro-Magnon Man
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Apr 2, 2017
Messages
198
The Prior Steps - Most guys coming into pick up
  • Need to step up their hygiene game, grooming game, and lack of muscles
  • Don't even know where to meet girls they might want to hook up with/date
  • Are not aware of their emotional/self esteem issues
  • Have not dealt with their emotional/self esteem issues in a long term way
  • Afraid to start conversations with strangers
  • Afraid to have deep/tense/conflict conversations with people they know
  • Might not raise their hands in class
  • Might not return something to a physical store
  • Might not return a plate of food
  • Unwilling to learn how to dance
  • Decry everything popular (except of course for video games/anime/and other forms of nerd culture)
  • Don't know conduct themselves in interview (and would not know how to hold an interview)
  • Have never sold anything in their lives.
  • Can't read faces, body language, can't read social situations. They don't understand tone of voice.
In terms of social skills, what it takes to be the most popular guy in class, at the job, on the team - they lack.

That's an excellent. We talk here about fundamentals a lot. I've been thinking a lot about the elementary stuff below fundamentals (there is some overlap, though). The deeper you go, the more far away it gets from directly seduction related but the more vital it is to get sorted out.

A lot of the guys asking for the wrong advice here.
E.g. "No, it's not about the choice of opener, it's how your lack of assertiveness and low self-esteem manifests in your behavior and vibe."
Of course, who wouldn't want to believe there are shortcuts.

Some Pre-requisites to the list of pre-requisites:
  • Self-awareness (emotions, thoughts, arousal [not sexual] etc.)
  • Being able to honestly to look at oneself and take stock of past shortcoming
  • Having a proper mindset that enables to concurrently have have decent self-esteem and be eager to work with one's shortcomings ("It''s not how low you are but how quickly bounce back", growth mindset, "Work in progress", etc.)
  • Mental hygiene (requires self-awareness) - having at least a modicum control over your thoughts and emotions
  • Being able to manage your level of arousal - e.g. how to keep calm in a high-pressure situation
  • How to make plans and execute them successfully
 
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