Attachment styles... are they really a thing?

Karea Ricardus D.

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@nolimits and I were talking on another thread about attachment styles, and how they factor into managing expectations, juggling multiple relationships and so forth. Back in my day we never talked about attachment styles on the boards. I actually think they weren't really part of pop psychology yet.

I'm wondering if they're really true, because they kinda contradict the passion trap model I've written about, and which I've found to be very true. In other words, every relationship usually has one or the other partner more in love than the other, and both happen equally often to men and to women.

Then if someone is the one down in the relationship, they tend to exhibit an anxious attachment pattern, and if they're one up in the relationship, they tend to exhibit a secure or avoidant attachment pattern. And as far as I can tell, everyone has both of them, if they have more than just a few relationships.

Aren't attachment styles just a symptom of the Passion Trap dynamic? For reference, here's my article about the passion trap, and below is the book.


 

Rakehell

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I feel like they’re both true. After all it’s a framework / less a law.

Being the one down will lead to anxiety/restlessness in anything. Having your way will give you a sense of security.

Attachment styles are how you respond to emotional connections and your behavior in those kinds of relationships. Secure people are secure value space/and closeness, disorganized want different things at the same time, anxious constantly need reassurance and closeness, avoidants push away when people get close.

I feel like they can coexist since they’re both just observations of behavior in different contexts. If certain factors are there you might have any of the behavior from any of the attachment styles in that context.
 

Boom_1982

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For a successful relationship, it is always better for female to be one down or should both partners be equally in love?
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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Studies have actually shown that in most successful long-term relationships the woman is the one up. Not that I would want that!
 

Boom_1982

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Studies have actually shown that in most successful long-term relationships the woman is the one up. Not that I would want that!
Same here and I would like to be in charge of relationship otherwise there is a chance of cheating by female. I say this because I am currently gaming three married chicks that are one up in their relationship.
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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Yeah the temptation to cheat is insane for the one up, i've always felt that way when I was one up in an LTR.
 

Boom_1982

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Agreed if the dominant partner is a strong individual which my three ladies are then they are on the lookout for a man stronger than them because they would like to surrender and feel to be controlled which their current partner is not providing
 

nolimits

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well, attachment styles impact the magnitude of a passion trap model.

Avoidant chicks tend to invest little , especially from an emotional standpoint. This means if you want a chick like that, whom you’re in a relationship with, to be more invested than you in the relationship , you’ll play way differently than if she was secure or anxious. Meaning - with avoidant chicks it is almost impossible to invest too little. With anxious ones - it’s pretty likely.
 

Boom_1982

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On a sidenote, what are strategies to make a high kill count girl fall in love with you? Is regular sex only way to keep her in love? As she is experienced, will she come out of that zone quickly and start chasing different guys?
 

DarkKnight

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I think both models can coexist with eachother. The passion trap definitely influences things, an avoidant can be freaky enough to drive a secure to insecure/anxious, however I think to see the impact of the attachement it is best to look more broadly to the dating history

So not the current relationship where the passion trap influences the dynamic, but the broader history, for instance avoidants tend to stay single much longer. Secures are more steady.
 

Karea Ricardus D.

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I have a friend who always gets into relationships as the one up, as he doesn't really want to commit. Over time he gets more and more attached to the girls and after about 2 years he finds himself as the one down and then they dump him. Crazy pattern repeated many times.

What's that? He goes in avoidant, then becomes secure, and then becomes anxious. He has 3 attachment styles? I don't know, I'm not sold, I think the passion trap explains relationship dynamics a lot better than attachment styles. But, I'm staying open minded... I'll think about this more.
 

orkie123

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I have a friend who always gets into relationships as the one up, as he doesn't really want to commit. Over time he gets more and more attached to the girls and after about 2 years he finds himself as the one down and then they dump him. Crazy pattern repeated many times.

What's that? He goes in avoidant, then becomes secure, and then becomes anxious. He has 3 attachment styles? I don't know, I'm not sold, I think the passion trap explains relationship dynamics a lot better than attachment styles. But, I'm staying open minded... I'll think about this more.

I dislike most psychology tests because IMO they are mostly bull and don't help anybody. They are a combination of:

- Being vague enough like horoscopes to fit a large % of people

- Put people in boxes depending on their current life situation that people then use as an excuse to not improve their life. "I'm avoidant so it's normal for me to do XYZ"

Sure, some people may exhibit the same attachment style for a long time, but that's more to do with them not changing anything about their life.

The situation you describe is a clear example of why attachment styles makes no sense. I would guess that what happens is that when he is on the hunt, he is "avoidant" as he is getting many opportunities. When he gets in a relationship, he feels secure because of the momentum and being "one up", but after a while, he starts to feel insecure and dependent on the relationship for validation of who he is and getting sex, so becomes "anxious".

The article that Chase wrote on losing frame in relationships causing them to fall apart probably explains the transition from secure to anxious.

But if people can change styles by changing how they act and feel about stuff, then when exactly are these styles valid/useful?

I really like your article on the passion trap. My unexperienced view has been that relationships that stay exciting need to alternate between who's got the one up and one down, and being and staying confident and aware of the relationship dynamic is crucial.

E.g. He has one up on her, so she starts texting more. However, she realises it and starts to match/ lower her texting. He catches glimpse that she is going a bit cold, so then he overcompensates and becomes the one down and the cycle repeats. This would happen on a somewhat subconscious level.

The above would become easier if both partners develop at similar overall pace but not at the same time. E.g. at one period, her art business starts booming while he feels stagnant in his current job. Then he gets promoted to a perfect well paid position while her business is flatlining. Then she gets lots of new social hobbies while he is working lots, then he meets a cool new network to play golf and go out.

Another element is having similar interests (duh) but in a way that one is more of a leader in one and the other is a bigger leader in the other. Maybe they both dance but she is more skilled and graceful, and they both love to climb but he is a respected coach. That way they both feel that admiration of the other being the leader and feeling the excitement at different times.
 

Boom_1982

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I have a friend who always gets into relationships as the one up, as he doesn't really want to commit. Over time he gets more and more attached to the girls and after about 2 years he finds himself as the one down and then they dump him. Crazy pattern repeated many times.

What's that? He goes in avoidant, then becomes secure, and then becomes anxious. He has 3 attachment styles? I don't know, I'm not sold, I think the passion trap explains relationship dynamics a lot better than attachment styles. But, I'm staying open minded... I'll think about this more.
If you fight passion trap and successfully come out if then does it generate attraction in girls?
 

Chase

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@Karea Ricardus D.,

I'm pretty confident attachment styles are legitimate. The science on it is good, although there is some debate on the causes of the different kinds of attachment:


I wrote an article on it a few years back:


The way I have experienced attachment styles intersecting with being in the one-down position in a relationship is that the attachment style basically serves to modulate the effect:

  • Avoidants get very uncomfortable as the one-down and slip into this schizophrenic state of alternately chasing then withdrawing (because they hate that feeling of being chasey / needy)

  • Secure individuals will chase some but tend to have healthier means to try to move it closer to a more balanced relationship dynamic

  • Disorganized types respond to being the one down by throwing a bunch of fits and tantrums, then if you start to withdraw they either give ultimatums or have a breakdown

Anxious I don't have much experience with so can't speak to that one.

But yeah, the main effect on the passion trap appears to be modulating the response to being in it.

Chase
 

nolimits

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Avoidants get very uncomfortable as the one-down and slip into this schizophrenic state of alternately chasing then withdrawing (because they hate that feeling of being chasey / need
Avoidants get very uncomfortable as the one-down and slip into this schizophrenic state of alternately chasing then withdrawing (because they hate that feeling of being chasey / needy)
Yeah



which is what makes them hard to handle. They hate in love feelings.



Do you chase avoid dating avoidants ?
And if not how do you deal with them ?

At the moment I consider the best way to deal with avoidants to be the following : see them little, avoid wording that can be classified as romantic, and as soon as they start attaching give them the feeling that they have tons of space.


I like going on weekends with chicks for instance. But with avoidants that is not an easy one to pull off. Because as soon as you go ‘ hey we’ve been seeing each other for almost six months, want to go to Rome this weekend? ‘ they feel like you’re going to want to marry them.
 

Chase

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I have a friend who always gets into relationships as the one up, as he doesn't really want to commit. Over time he gets more and more attached to the girls and after about 2 years he finds himself as the one down and then they dump him. Crazy pattern repeated many times.

What's that? He goes in avoidant, then becomes secure, and then becomes anxious. He has 3 attachment styles? I don't know, I'm not sold, I think the passion trap explains relationship dynamics a lot better than attachment styles. But, I'm staying open minded... I'll think about this more.

Yeah that's interesting.

Good attachment styles tests come back as a pie chart. IIRC mine is 75% secure, 25% avoidant. I've had girls take them who are a mix of things... e.g., 50% secure, 25% avoidant, 25% disorganized. So like a girl like that you would not expect her to ever get anxious/clingy for long ever, and she typically won't.

Maybe your buddy has some mixture of avoidant + anxious, or anxious + disorganized (disorganized can look like anxious too, avoiding attachment... but they're really just a mess and simply don't know what they want). Starts out resisting commitment, then once he gets into it he doesn't want to let it go.


@nolimits,

Do you chase avoid dating avoidants ?
And if not how do you deal with them ?

At the moment I consider the best way to deal with avoidants to be the following : see them little, avoid wording that can be classified as romantic, and as soon as they start attaching give them the feeling that they have tons of space.

I've dated girls who have some manner of avoidance, yeah. Hardcore avoidants I just don't gel with at all. They do weird things like make themselves unavailable for a week or two weeks or three weeks then suddenly want to meet again. At that point I will just be like... "Why? If I'm horny, can't I just go get a new chick? If she's not going to come over within a reasonable period of time when I want her, why see her?"

I suspect you probably need to be pretty strongly avoidant yourself to want to date a hardcore avoidant. Or else be in enough scarcity that you're willing to settle for that kind of behavior :D Or maybe you just want to have a huge rotation going on and girls coming over once or twice a month works perfect. Hardcore avoidants are picture perfect for big FWB rotations.

OTOH, girls with a slight avoidant streak I get on pretty well with. My approach with them is basically... anything they say about not wanting things to get serious I just lazily agree with.

Note that I make it a point to make sure girls understand early on that women are not a problem for me and I can go out and get more women basically whenever I want. At least for me I find so long as women understand that everything else is pretty straightforward.

But I will have conversations that go like this:

HER: I don't want this to get too serious. You're not really the right guy for me.​
ME: Sounds good to me. [back to whatever I am doing]​
[LATER THAT VERY SAME EVENING...]​
HER: You're actually a pretty good guy, you know that?​
ME: That's what they tell me.​
HER: Who tells you that... other girls?​
ME: [shrug] Lots of people.​
HER: It's other girls. [snuggles up]​

Basically I am just the cocky, lazy player and it allows them to relax around me. But I don't rub their noses in it. Most of the playerish stuff I say is a reaction to them doing weirdo avoidant stuff, or them trying to make amends later after a weirdo avoidant outburst.

In a sense I guess it's all operant conditioning:


They are discovering that every time they push me away, they feel pushed away. But not aggressively, just... lazily.

Then when they want to get close, I will be close with them.

When they start balking, I just take it in stride.

But my mentality is always just, "Relationships are nice but it would be nice to be single."

So if a chick is like, "This isn't working out! We can't date! Blah blah blah!" I will tell her "Cool with me!"

If she is like, "I don't think I can see you more than once a week," I will say, "Cool, more free time for me."

Etc. etc.

It chills them out.

Note I am not being passive-aggressive. I really do not really care when they say this stuff. I know they are just saying it because they have some weird thing where they are trying to resist my pull. But like a little moon orbiting a gas giant that pull is irresistible.

So when they do this stuff, my basic attitude is...


I would also say to me it is kind of comical. I am just there doing whatever. But you can see their minds running circles around themselves... "I like this guy! No wait, I can't get too close! OMG he doesn't care that I can't get too close? Okay that's good! No pressure! But wait, what if he gets another girl? Wow, I like this guy!"

That makes it even easier to just be like "whatever" when they say/do this stuff, because I know they are just running around in their heads.

Again, the really hardcore ones, if she just disappears for weeks at a time or something, I am just not even going to bother keeping things going with a chick like that. Just doesn't serve my needs. But the less hardcore ones typically will voice their avoidance to you to some degree, and then you are just like "Cool, sounds good!" and then they chill out.

I like going on weekends with chicks for instance. But with avoidants that is not an easy one to pull off. Because as soon as you go ‘ hey we’ve been seeing each other for almost six months, want to go to Rome this weekend? ‘ they feel like you’re going to want to marry them.

Re: weekends with chicks... I mean you could do a ski lodge or something probably. But Rome is like... super romantic. Probably top two, up there with Paris. Venice #3. So yeah, if you tell her "Let's go to Rome" her brain is going to be going, "ALERT! ALERT! PROPOSAL IMMINENT! EMERGENCY! EJECT! WHERE'S THE PEPPER SPRAY!"

I don't really do weekends with chicks... I guess I really am the lazy player, too lazy for that... but if I wanted to do them I would probably do it like this:

"Hey I want to travel. Come be my travel buddy. Where should we go? You pick a spot."

Then just let her pick it.

If I wanted to do some super romance place with her like Rome or Paris I would just get her in a habit of doing semi-regular weekend trips with me first, and once the habit's established then at some point I'd feel her out for it: "Hey, which of these should we do next... Athens, Portofino, or Rome? Got a preference?" If she doesn't pick Rome you've worked it into consideration and can always bring it up again later.

So you are just gently easing it into her consciousness, step by step, until you can finally say, "We still haven't done Rome yet. Wanna go?" and she won't hear danger signs.

(then once you get her there you can get down on one knee in front of the Colosseum and whip out an engagement ring and send her freaked out racing for Tuscany, never to agree to go on another trip with you again... lol)

Also, another thing to point out there, is you are going to spook an avoidant with that kind of language... "Hey we've been seeing each other for six months. Want to blah blah blah whatever?"

That whole framing you're using is "We've been together for X time. I think it's time for the next step in commitment. How about we Y?"

It doesn't even matter what Y is. If you tell an avoidant chick, "Hey, we've been seeing each other for six months now. How about we celebrate by getting frozen yogurt and going out to dance?" she's still going to be like, "Holy heck, he's trying to rope me down! I've gotta escape!"

I suggest you read my post here on marriage not being a big deal:


... then just apply that same mentality to every escalation of commitment. "We can do it... not a big deal to me. We can also not do it; whatever."

Basically just if you're going to do something that TO YOU feels like an escalation of the commitment, then framed TO HER it should basically be just another day. "I need a travel buddy, wanna come along?" vs. "We've been together so long, my love; it is time for the next stage in our romantic progression." Big difference to an avoidant.

Chase
 

DarkKnight

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They are discovering that every time they push me away, they feel pushed away. But not aggressively, just... lazily.
aha... good to know and use, gels with law of least effort ofc.

@Karea Ricardus D.

Hey Karea, so this book which has become very mainstream called "attached", has chapters about secure avoidant anxious and I believe at the end of the chapter there are assesments of people, outside a relationship and it is used to gauge wether a persion is one of those attachement styles. This on itself shows that without passion trap attachement styles are a real thing. Passion trap is more I believe about the dynamic between two people and attachement styles we can view individually
 

nolimits

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It doesn't even matter what Y is. If you tell an avoidant chick, "Hey, we've been seeing each other for six months now. How about we celebrate by getting frozen yogurt and going out to dance?" she's still going to be like, "Holy heck, he's trying to rope me down! I've gotta escape!"
yeah sure - I don’t think I’ve ever framed things that way, meaning i invite girls along to most activities I do, all the time. I’m a sociable motherfucker. But it will help me next time around to pay extra attention to really emphasize framing things as ‘ you can come along ‘ instead of ‘ how about we do this ‘ kind of way.

Powerful answer from your part tho, thanks man !
 

Chad Tyrone

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(then once you get her there you can get down on one knee in front of the Colosseum and whip out an engagement ring
haha. Btw what are your thoughts on going down to your knee when proposing for marriage? Basically when you are the kind of guy that get girls chasing enough and have a really solid "I'm the prize" mindset ingrained deep in your mind based off lots of experiences of course. I mean I do feel there is a smooth way to doing it .Have seen it done clumsily in real life lol. Then the guy jumps up thanking the lady(n)😂 I mean same way you feel asking a girl to be your girlfriend silly is the same way I feel about will you marry me lol.

As an aside I am pretty much detached when it comes to relationships. I could have that love at first sight feeling with a hot chick and connect with her on a deeper level but I never share that love feeling with her ...always feel like I'm way better than them. With feelings I am dark inside. No one hurt me lol and this isn't a " I am tough .I can never fall in love" stuff either. Does this come when one has been doing this for a while ?cause that's how I feel about it.

Yet it isn't about running through my process cause I really enjoy having a great interaction with a given chick.
 
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