Break Ups Broke Up With Her For Clubbing - The Right Call?

[SMaol]

We'd been dating for 10 months as of writing this.

I had an firm boundary. I wouldn't date a party girl (thank you Chase). I made this clear too, 3 months into our relationship, after she went to her first student club night since we'd met. It was a simple statement of fact from my part. She apologised, said she didn't know it was important to me.

Few blissful months passed and she went back to her country for the summer. I was to join her for a month once I finished work, so we had a 5 week long distance to look forward to first.

Few weeks in, she sends texts showing her at a club in her town. Total blindsight. She was with her sister, as she always was, and a long time girl friend.

She never mentioned that she would club again once she went back to her country. She was totally confused when I said I was disappointed, and she said clubbing is important to her, and she'd want to go at least sometimes in the future. I was being controlling and should accept her going out, as she accepted it for me.

I told her it was a problem of violated expectations - gave a Considerate ultimatum of "if this is important to you then we're simply incompatible". She said she simply couldn't promise she'd never club or party without me. I said there's nothing else to say then and hung up, with her in tears.

Currently I'm numb. I knew it was a possibility but didn't expect the breakup to be decided then and there. Wondering if I made a terrible mistake in execution of this discussion.

She was gorgeous, affectionate and extremely my type in humor, values etc. Other boyfriends had been kept waiting for weeks before a simple kiss. I was the rogue, her first at almost everything - and so from the onset, the first week, we were open with another. Coming to the my country was culture shock. She hated our clubs for how forward people could be, compared to back home.

This was the only real problem I had in the relationship. I communicated a hardline of never clubbing/ partying, but realistically, I would have been fine with her going out every now and then, on a case by case basis, seeing as she had proven her judgement with such events in the past.

So officially we're broken up. I broke up with her on phone.

But I'm left with regret. I honestly regret most that this talk couldn't happen in person, and that my explanation may have lacked the nuance it could have had. I dont know how to get in touch without appearing to flip-flop on my decisions.

Would it be wrong to get back in touch in this case? Is such a relationship better left alone?

An aside - my trip was planned and paid for. The flights are still booked and leave in 2 weeks.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

Personally I wouldn't date a girl seriously who goes clubbing without me. Clubbing is single behavior... these venues basically exist only for the purpose of drinking, flirting, hooking up, dancing is ultimately a sexual display too.

It's probably worth having a proper conversation in person about it all if you think she might budge. But if she sticks to her guns on hitting up clubs without you, she's not GF material IMO.

2c

 

[Will_V]

First of all, it's important what you told her the first time she went clubbing. Did you tell her that if she went clubbing again you'd break up with her? Or did you simply tell her you didn't want a party girl? The latter is very undefined, and by all accounts 'party girl' implies 'goes a lot' rather than 'goes at all'. Essentially, you had to make it very clear what the expectation was and what exactly would occur if she broke it.

How old is she? If she's late teens to early twenties, and especially if she's very inexperienced (which it certainly sounds like), she's going to get real enticed by all the possibilities the world has to offer. It'll be very difficult to maintain boundaries, especially around things that she hasn't yet made up her mind about. So even if you managed to get her to follow your rules, she's still surrounded by the student life - parties, impulsive young friends, and opportunities galore to try out wild new experiences. Unless she's very, very strong willed, and sure of herself and her choices, she'll be constantly tempted and driven to wonder if the relationship is the right thing for her.

One more thing - you say you would have been fine with her going every now and then, in the right circumstances. Did you communicate that to her? Do you know what the right circumstances are for you? If not, it's a good possibility she picked up on your uncertainty and took it as at least a sign that you might not enforce things.

As far as her behavior is concerned, it's a bit of an issue that she didn't bring it up with you before she went. That sets a very bad precedent. If you do continue with her, you'd have to deal with this in very strong terms. That's why the main thing for me in relationships is communication - I never castigate a girl for bringing something up with me and I will patiently reassert my frame as many times as she wants. Is there a possibility that she felt it was risky to bring up her desire to club with you? If so, it might be something to think about doing differently in the future - better that you know what's going on in her head than find out when the crap hits the fan.

As far as what to do now, my suggestion is simple. Think carefully about the situation for a couple of days, clarify in your mind exactly what you want, what you expect, what you think you did wrong (there's always things) and what she did wrong. Then decide what kind of future is still possible. Once you've decided that, simply call her, lay out the facts, get her side of things (if she's got anything to add), then give her your expectations and tell her she'll have to decide what she wants.

Don't be afraid to tell her what you did wrong too, if you do it with a strong frame and without rancor it will give her a frame in which to accept her own.

It's a bit unfortunate that things happened while she was far away, as it creates three problems: first, if you still go it looks like you're chasing her down. Second, it makes it astronomically more likely that, if things blew up, she'd go out, get drunk and bang some rando at the club. Third: it makes it a lot easier for her to not make up her mind, until something makes up her mind for her.

What I would do is, if I thought there was a possibility of resolving things, proceed very diplomatically (with strong, non-needy frame of course, but with a minimum of drama, anger, accusations etc). Try to get her to bring up the question of you coming, and ask her if she still wants you to. If she does, and you feel like she really wants things to get fixed, then tell her you will. After that, try to build up the event - get her to invest in planning things you might do together etc. This is the best chance IMO to keep her from doing anything stupid and stay in a positive, controlled state of mind until your presence can dominate her thinking.

 

[Skills]

- If she likes clubbing and you don't like a girl that goes to clubs... Then, there is too much polarity in YOUR values and it won't work..

- usually if you meet a girl at club she will stop clubbing naturally, the ultimatums are expression of hopelessness, people that give ultimatums are already at a loss.

- You being long distance for times (never works).

I already explained in a post how silly this "girls in club" automatically cheats and will be horrible girlfriend myth.... Teevester followed up with another article that is similar... Is somewhere in chase blog.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Think overall you made the right move ending it @SMaol

A few points from me:

1. Make your requirements more explicit:

but realistically, I would have been fine with her going out every now and then, on a case by case basis, seeing as she had proven her judgement with such events in the past.

Sharing this would have gone a long way upfront. Issue with saying this now is it's easily seen as you backward rationalizing to get her back.

She apologised, said she didn't know it was important to me.

Unless you skipped something - it appears that she didn't actually promise not to do it. Which explains this response:

She was totally confused when I said I was disappointed, and she said clubbing is important to her,

With that said I think you have options:

An aside - my trip was planned and paid for. The flights are still booked and leave in 2 weeks.

You can use the fact that everything is paid for as plausible deniability to go anyway.

Get your own place/hotel and basically go there with 0 expectations to re-kindle anything and treat it as a solo travel trip.

You can then send her a short, light touch message to say, you're in town to make use of the trip, you're staying at xyz and if she wants she can come to see you. Be 100% comfortable with being ignored or her stalling. If you aren't - don't go.

This way you're getting her to invest in you (while your investment is minimized) and it acts as a test to how serious she is to be with you.

You can definitely back track and get her back while keeping frame but she has to feel like she had to work to "win you back".


4. Screen girls for longer

I made this clear too, 3 months into our relationship, after she went to her first student club night since we'd met.

Timelines aren't clear between casual > dating > relationship within the 10 months. Personally I casually date girls for a minimum of 6 months' before I admit we're even in a relationship of any kind. Girls will go based on your actions vs words (as they should). Think how many times a girl has U-turned on something they've said to you? She probably didn't think it was much of a big deal

3. Long distance is always going to be difficult as Skills said. Although this appears to be temporary as I'm assuming she'll come back to your country after the summer. If she's not coming back I personally wouldn't even bother.


4. Call me naïve but I personally see no issue with a GF going to the bar with her girls lol. If you're doing everything else right, she'll often pester you to join or will naturally not go out much albeit friend's birthdays.

 

[SMaol]

Thanks for the replies, all. I'm going through and considering them all. The concensus seems to be that it's worth another talk, even if framing this will be walking a fine line...

It's probably worth having a proper conversation in person about it all if you think she might budge. But if she sticks to her guns on hitting up clubs without you, she's not GF material IMO.

How would you envision that conversation taking place?


Will:

Did you tell her that if she went clubbing again you'd break up with her? Or did you simply tell her you didn't want a party girl?

"I dont date girls that go clubbing. They can be fun, invigorating to be around. But I wouldn't take them as a girlfriend". That's roughly what was said - the implication, at the time, being that I didn't see her as anything serious. She got apologetic, declined her next invite. Said she just wants to please me, hates to think she did anything that I didn't like.

How old is she? If she's late teens to early twenties, and especially if she's very inexperienced (which it certainly sounds like), she's going to get real enticed by all the possibilities the world has to offer. It'll be very difficult to maintain boundaries, especially around things that she hasn't yet made up her mind about.

Mid 20's. Student. Stranger averse. She had few close friends, and distanced herself from the rest as she complained they would ruin parties by inviting strangers. Turned down invites on her own accord in the latter half of the year.

One more thing - you say you would have been fine with her going every now and then, in the right circumstances. Did you communicate that to her? Do you know what the right circumstances are for you?

No, unfortunately. I never did communicate the nuance. It was simply stated, and never challenged.

In my case it would be: classier venues/ events could be ok depending on context. If her town's experience of a "club" is indeed so different I'd have to experience it for myself.

Clarify in your mind exactly what you want, what you expect, what you think you did wrong (there's always things) and what she did wrong. Then decide what kind of future is still possible. Once you've decided that, simply call her, lay out the facts, get her side of things (if she's got anything to add), then give her your expectations and tell her she'll have to decide what she wants.

This stuff helps us understand ourselves better after all :')

I really struggle to conceptualise how that conversation would play out however. I'm aware that my lack of finesse/ experience could just lead it to another ultimatum-situation.

Telling her I'd not be ok with it, after time apart, seemed to trigger a feeling of being controlled, even if she'd barely gone out as long as we'd known another.



Skills:

I already explained in a post how silly this "girls in club" automatically cheats and will be horrible girlfriend myth.... Teevester followed up with another article that is similar... Is somewhere in chase blog.

+1 for alternate takes, I'm all for reading if you got a link. As far as automatic cheating, I can agree. In this case - my exact tolerance may have been misrepresented, I hit the roof of my communication skills towards the end, and things just escalated, uncontrollably.

...

Really, with all the advice that advocates a second talk, I've gathered I could:

1) Call her up in the next couple days (as per @Will_V), somehow bring the last conversation up and clarify my stance without appearing disingenuous.

2) Give her 2 weeks where we're totally broken up, and have the conversation in person.

One feels like chasing. One feels dispassionate, but prone to greater drama. Would one be significantly better than the other in such a case?

 

[Skills]

Skills:

+1 for alternate takes, I'm all for reading if you got a link. As far as automatic cheating, I can agree. In this case - my exact tolerance may have been misrepresented, I hit the roof of my communication skills towards the end, and things just escalated, uncontrollably.

Why I believe that women are women regardless on how you meet, (my basic view on women part 1)

Context.- Since I joined the community....I had to fight ridiculous things such as: "dance floor is a trap" "text to meet only" "fuck women on the first night no matter what or game over" "talk on the dance floor" "don't physically escalate till closing location" "After 30 is over and you will...

www.skilledseducer.com

Debunked: 7 Common Myths About Night Game

Meeting girls via night game is loud, chaotic, boozy, hard, exhausting, and trashy… right? It can be… but only if you’re doing it wrong. It can ALSO be so much more… Hey guys. Contents I. Cons of Night Game Staying Up Late Not into Booze The Noise “I Don’t Like the Girls I Meet at Night” II...

www.girlschase.com

 

[Beck Bass]

I have no problems with my girls clubbing, as long as they know I'm not commited, that I'll sleep with other girls and we just have an open relationship. A woman that is fully commited doesn't have much of a reason to go clubbing, other than "helping her friends", but even that is a bit of a chore, because if she's really commited to you, she will be bored to be there not trying to get any attention from males, instead of being with you or doing something else useful with her time. Also, clubs are temptation, girls will avoid them if they are serious about you.

This is all from my personal experience, I do pretty much only night game, and I have been clubbing for more than 7 years, and girls cheat on their guys there, all the time. There's girls that think kissing and grinding a bit is not cheating, girls that are chill, but then drink a bit more and get wild and later may regret cheating (but will cheat anyway), lots of stuff like that.

If you want a conventional LTR, with your girl fully commited to you, and only giving sex to you, you shouldn't accept her to go clubbing, specially on her own. Sometimes it's fine if you go with her and it's an special occasion, but clubs are places that mostly exist for hooking up, conventional couples don't belong there. I get that feeling that her saying "it's important to her" basically means she wants to get some from some other dudes while still having you on her backpocket, I think she's basically gaslighting you.

I myself wouldn't have a relationship long term with a girl that is far away, even if it's just for a few weeks. If my girl is leaving for 2 weeks or more, I'm like, ok babe, we are taking some time off, then, we'll see what happens when we're back. I think the clubbing is just the cherry on top, unless you have been with this girl for years and she's really commited to you, why is she going away the whole summer and she is still "your girlfriend", even though in practice you're just buddy talking over a phone? Like for a man to not have sex over that time, it's already complicated, and women have cicles, she's gonna be super horny one night, meet some random sexy guy, and kaboom, there goes your "relationship", or worse, she's gonna cheat and you never gonna find out, maybe even raise some kid that's not yours. And if you've been together that long, I'm sure she'll do everything she can for you to be with her, taking you with her or staying with you, no matter what. It's very rare that your girl can travel and you be chill that she's not gonna stray, because you're so sure she's commited to you, but even then it's a risk, and if you were any sure that she wouldn't, I guess you wouldn't be asking here.

I think you gotta ask her (and yourself) what really is the point of this relationship at this point, and why would she go clubbing if she has a boyfriend, when she knows every guy there is gonna be trying to get on her pants.

 

[TomInHo]

Solution is simple...

Downgrade the relationship

- Cut out the dates
- Reduce your investment
- Text her just to set up meets for sex
- Don't let her sleepover or take up too much of your time
- She's now in the strictly dickly category

But stay open minded and watch her actions after. If she starts acting in line with what you want, then you can take that as a green light to start slowly moving towards more emotional intimacy with her for rewarding good behavior

If she is sexy, fun and affectionate why throw that away because she likes to party?

Just know what it is and keep her around for a good time while you continue your search for a girl that matches your values for GF material. And next time a girl crosses your boundary like that again in the future, there no need to have a long sappy conversation about it and try to lecture her

Actions > Words

Treat girls according to how they show in the relationship and you'll be a happy man with less drama

 

[Fuck This]

SM I think your requirements are unreasonable...

1) Long distance relationship
2) young age
3) 100 mile rule
4) you appear too controlling
5) why don't you have other women in the wings?
6) you elevated her status to LTR when you two don't have a parallel path and share the same relationship goal
7) If you are going to do LDR, then learn to have the mindset of "Whenwe are together we are togehter, but apart we have to live our lives."

 

[SMaol]

Hey guys, though I'd give a brief overview of what ended up happening.

• I waited 4 days to call, no response, I sent a voice mail saying I'm open to talk
• She responded a long paragraph, saying she's disappointed enough, she loved me, but felt I was trying to control her. It would be better to end since thats what I wanted.
• I texted back, saying I hear her, distance makes communication hard, I'm sorry for hanging up when I did. I'd like to call, when she's ready.

Just know what it is and keep her around for a good time while you continue your search for a girl that matches your values for GF material. And next time a girl crosses your boundary like that again in the future, there no need to have a long sappy conversation about it and try to lecture her

Amen. She was incredibly supportive and low-drama, but this... I blew it out of proportion. Feels like there's a limited chance at reconciling with how 2 weeks have passed since.

I know now I was heated, and said too much in the moment. Even things I didn't actually expect of her.

SM I think your requirements are unreasonable...

Yup. Its been a mounting feeling of possessiveness I've never acted on before. It was truly the wrong approach. She now thinks I want nothing to do with her because she went on a night out, when clearly the expectation wasn't set like I thought.

Now I'm still taking that trip next week. Might drop another message there asking to meet. But I don't know if I should. I made a mistake in trying to control her. I made her believe I didnt want a girl that *ever* went out when that wasn't true. I want her to know what exactly our differences are, and whether we can reconcile once I'm there.

 

[DarkKnight]

@SMaol after all is being said and done, you seem to be the one who is most afraid of letting go. I skimmed through the post, be honest do you believe you can replace her? If no, you will rationalize things in her favor. She can adapt as well, I mean she is adapting , in the opposite direction.

 

[SMaol]

Course, I will admit I'm a little afraid in any relationship. It's why I care to learn.

If there was a solid approach to getting a girlfriend out of auto-rejection, weeks after, I would try it. If this is to be a case-study of what not to do in the end, that's ok too. I'm open to learn.

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@SMaol dude! If you want to try.... Check out the auto rejection turnaround, there's an article on it that will explain much better than I can.

Also check out the articles how to get your girlfriend back, I think there's two of them that have great information in.

In one of the above mentioned articles there's a play for temporary madness which you can play to explain your wild behaviour. Alternatively combine it with @Skills tactical moment of weakness (look it up on the forum).

I'd also point out if you're going to attempt this, don't apologise. You dropped "sorry" about hanging up on her, try to avoid dropping it again so soon. Only drop it when it's necessary when you've really messed up. Although I think this would qualify, you've already apologised and so this will take the impact away.

The issue here is you have to accept responsibility to her for this, it was a communication error that was your fault. This is the mistake, not you being possessive or controlling, that is her narrative and not your frame

 

[SMaol]

You're the man Flux. Saying sorry again in the next message defo felt wrong... but I wasn't quite sure how to pad it out.

As for the articles:

Would I be correct in saying most of these would be more applicable to face-to-face conversation?

The issue here is you have to accept responsibility to her for this, it was a communication error that was your fault. This is the mistake, not you being possessive or controlling, that is her narrative and not your frame

So I could use the autorejection turnaround method when arriving, like so:

"Hey. Realise the last call was confusing. I had concerns, and communicated poorly. Wasn't my intent to make you feel you did wrong, I think you're __ and I love __.

Anyway, not to rush, if you need space still, but I'm in country now. We should grab lunch at some point, can be my treat."

I'll just have to tweak it for the severity (not terrible) and length of time this will have dragged out...

 

[Fluxcapacitor]

@SMaol dude! Most things work better in person, you have real time interaction, vocal tone, facial expression, body language and quick action. Text messages can be constructed, thought out, discussed. Due to this you have a lot more control over an interaction in person. You can't control when they read your message, what mood they're in, other distractions or further miscommunication while everything is under the microscope. Interacting in person gives you much more to play with and more impact over her emotions.

The advantage of the turn around method is it works over text as well.

The aim of the game (where possible) is to get her to meet in person where you have more influence.

You've got options with this if you're going to go on holiday anyway. You can massage in advance or message when you're there, if you can't get her out you can't turn it around, the auto rejection turnaround could flip it in your favour.

Your message is good, the only thing I'd change is say it is your treat not it can be. Can be seems like you're not sure and it's ambiguous where she has to ask or tell you, this is offering an olive branch as a peace offering so it's a nice gesture from you. I'd also give a time frame, you're in the country for X number of days, this gives her a window of opportunity and a call to action

I wouldn't tweak it much for the severity, if you act like it's not a big deal she'll feel like she's overreacted

 

[Skills]

Course, I will admit I'm a little afraid in any relationship. It's why I care to learn.

If there was a solid approach to getting a girlfriend out of auto-rejection, weeks after, I would try it. If this is to be a case-study of what not to do in the end, that's ok too. I'm open to learn.

You already apologized, and she knows she is in the up position and you are having massive buyers remorse..... You feel super guilty and regretful (this causes neediness)..... The only move is to go in radio silence, which is really painful, cause you have the strong age to go rational and explain and try to fix, which pushes her away more...

The move is to read and watch the video along with the links here.... And actually follow the advice, she will ping back if you do the radio silence correctly...

P.s. I swear to god i predicted all this was going to happen when you put up the op... I should have not been lazy and explain that all this was going to happen before it happened, which i actually knew, so you can be more prepared, but is just repetitive scenario i have seen a million times, so writing shit over and over gets tiring.

 

[Skills]

@SMaol dude! If you want to try.... Check out the auto rejection turnaround, there's an article on it that will explain much better than I can.

Also check out the articles how to get your girlfriend back, I think there's two of them that have great information in.

In one of the above mentioned articles there's a play for temporary madness which you can play to explain your wild behaviour. Alternatively combine it with @Skills tactical moment of weakness (look it up on the forum).

I'd also point out if you're going to attempt this, don't apologise. You dropped "sorry" about hanging up on her, try to avoid dropping it again so soon. Only drop it when it's necessary when you've really messed up. Although I think this would qualify, you've already apologised and so this will take the impact away.

The issue here is you have to accept responsibility to her for this, it was a communication error that was your fault. This is the mistake, not you being possessive or controlling, that is her narrative and not your frame

The strategic position of weakness it wont work in this scenario, she already knows that op is regretting the whole thing, and is remorseful(she has all the leverage now), it won't work for this scenario.... Only scenario that work with post relationship is radio silence to be honest. Or him having such and awesome life that she gets scare of missing out, but radio silence for the win (extremely painful and requires tons of discipline)

 

[SMaol]

The advantage of the turn around method is it works over text as well.

The aim of the game (where possible) is to get her to meet in person where you have more influence.

You've got options with this if you're going to go on holiday anyway. You can massage in advance or message when you're there, if you can't get her out you can't turn it around, the auto rejection turnaround could flip it in your favour.

Confident in person, so yes, that's a concern. Texting too much = overexplaining. Texting too little = not worth her time.

Holding out till I'm there, I'll make your changes.

You already apologized, and she knows she is in the up position and you are having massive buyers remorse..... You feel super guilty and regretful (this causes neediness)..... The only move is to go in radio silence, which is really painful, cause you have the strong age to go rational and explain and try to fix, which pushes her away more...

Don't know... seems extreme on the remorse. I've said sorry for hanging up suddenly, lets call when you're ready. For all she knows, I could just feel bad for her. I was stoic during the actual breakup.

The move is to read and watch the video along with the links here.... And actually follow the advice, she will ping back if you do the radio silence correctly...

You mention it's worth mending fences if there's a misunderstanding. I got heated. I told her we're wrong for each other. Silence without clarifying, wouldn't that kill reason to reconcile? Figure some food for thought might be appropriate, before leaning back. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Skills]

Confident in person, so yes, that's a concern. Texting too much = overexplaining. Texting too little = not worth her time.

Holding out till I'm there, I'll make your changes.



Don't know... seems extreme on the remorse. I've said sorry for hanging up suddenly, lets call when you're ready. For all she knows, I could just feel bad for her. I was stoic during the actual breakup.



You mention it's worth mending fences if there's a misunderstanding. I got heated. I told her we're wrong for each other. Silence without clarifying, wouldn't that kill reason to reconcile? Figure some food for thought might be appropriate, before leaning back. Maybe I'm wrong.

Oh i miss that then @Fluxcapacitor is right, then read my post on strategic position of weakness... https://www.skilledseducer.com/threads/strategic-position-of-weakness.23731/