ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
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568
10/12

The big change I made in the interim was I stopped cold approaching and shifted to giving online dating a better effort.

This involved me doing my own high-quality photos, and getting some new clothes to help with a edgier look.

I'm also spending money on apps to give their paid features a shot.

So far, not much to report. I'm still working on it. I've been going out with buddies each weekend for about a month now taking pictures slowly building up a collection of good photos.

It definitely feels like a weight off my shoulders not feeling like I have to go out every single weekend and approach women to no avail. The women I do talk to here and there feels more natural/less pressure, and in general I feel less stressed.

I'm hoping focusing online will be the better use of time. We'll see what happens.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
11/17

I was in a depressive funk for a bit and I'm fortunately coming out of it.

Online action just grinded to a halt. Matches and everything just stopped across the board, even with the paid features.

Went out last weekend and while it was still disappointing, I think I'm zeroing in on something. This is going to sound dumb if this is the first entry you're reading, but should make sense if you've been following all the crap I've been trying or focusing on for a while now:

The way to succeed is to meet as many women as possible.

No more caring about catching women's attention. I'm short, and I'm not the type to wear crazy peacock outfits, or get covered in ink. Either it's not ever going to happen, or I'm going to spend a crazy amount of time chasing after tip-top fashion/style instead of meeting women.

Besides, I'm not entirely sold that I need better fashion/style. I had one of those moments where you look at yourself in the mirror after a fresh haircut, a freshly trimmed beard, you're wearing your top-of-the-rotation clothes and you just say "Fuck! Look at this sexy beefcake! Who the fuck is going to be the lucky lady to get some of this!"

When I went out this weekend, I tried upping the number of girls I talk to. With two girls, I got far enough along in the process that I was able to invite each over to my house. The deals weren't sealed for a number of reasons, but I considered this a big win.

And as this is happening, I'm still making slow steady progress on my social anxiety, and my understanding of my body language. I'm also developing a better trust in my judgement of social interactions. For instance, trusting my instincts and experience that a girl isn't interested. This has helped me move on MUCH faster, which means the sooner I can find a girl in the venue that's into me.

So all in all, I'm on an upswing and I'm excited to go out again as soon as I can.
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Nov 11, 2019
Messages
4,212
Location
South Florida
11/17

I was in a depressive funk for a bit and I'm fortunately coming out of it.

Online action just grinded to a halt. Matches and everything just stopped across the board, even with the paid features.

Went out last weekend and while it was still disappointing, I think I'm zeroing in on something. This is going to sound dumb if this is the first entry you're reading, but should make sense if you've been following all the crap I've been trying or focusing on for a while now:

The way to succeed is to meet as many women as possible.

No more caring about catching women's attention. I'm short, and I'm not the type to wear crazy peacock outfits, or get covered in ink. Either it's not ever going to happen, or I'm going to spend a crazy amount of time chasing after tip-top fashion/style instead of meeting women.

Besides, I'm not entirely sold that I need better fashion/style. I had one of those moments where you look at yourself in the mirror after a fresh haircut, a freshly trimmed beard, you're wearing your top-of-the-rotation clothes and you just say "Fuck! Look at this sexy beefcake! Who the fuck is going to be the lucky lady to get some of this!"

When I went out this weekend, I tried upping the number of girls I talk to. With two girls, I got far enough along in the process that I was able to invite each over to my house. The deals weren't sealed for a number of reasons, but I considered this a big win.

And as this is happening, I'm still making slow steady progress on my social anxiety, and my understanding of my body language. I'm also developing a better trust in my judgement of social interactions. For instance, trusting my instincts and experience that a girl isn't interested. This has helped me move on MUCH faster, which means the sooner I can find a girl in the venue that's into me.

So all in all, I'm on an upswing and I'm excited to go out again as soon as I can.

of course, is cuffing season online will suffer the worst.... resume after valentines... Going out in real life is way better... Try to go out at least 3 times a week to build momentum...
 

determined

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Mar 14, 2013
Messages
172
I highly recommend doing this program: https://www.4weeknatural.com/

The way to succeed is to meet as many women as possible.
Yes and no. You also wrote in a previous post that "only a small percentage of those convert into numbers." It sounds like you approach a ton of girls with a low success rate, which was my situation before I took that course.

There are some things you just can't learn by reading. You need experiences to change your perspective which then changes your emotions. GC taught me a lot, but man do I wish I'd worked with Alex years ago. There were just some basic things I didn't get, and once someone told me what those were things really clicked for me. The way I look at girls now is just different, and my vibe is in a different galaxy. You can see the difference in my journal b/w entries earlier than 2020 vs the ones after.

Basically, it seems to me like there might be some similarities b/w your situation and where I used to be. It was like I was at a dead-end repeatedly walking into the wall. Didn't matter how fast I ran because there was a wall in front of me. I need someone to turn me around and point me in the right direction. Dating/approaching used to be work. Now it's fun. I probably get numbers from ~33% of girls I talk to. If they're single and the environment is one where I can actually have a full conversation, it's probably over 50%.

The unique thing about that program is it's a month which is enough for Alex to really get to know you and understand what you personally need to learn, and enough time to change way you see things, as opposed to most programs which are only a week or weekend and not enough to make any lasting changes imo.
 
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ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
12/17 Update

1. Brought a girl home a couple weeks ago

This one went pretty easy. It was refreshing.

I went out dancing to somewhere generally filled with regulars I'm not interested in. This one new girl was there, mostly by herself. She was super cute, but not hot where the guys were tripping over themselves to shoot their shot.

I strike up a conversation, we do some dancing, and I get the vibe that she's interested. I ask if she'd like to grab a drink afterward. She said maybe. We separate for a bit to spend time with our friends and have a good time. We both start winding down to call it a night at the same point. I thought I was getting the vibe that she wasn't interested anymore but she came up to me and said 'Still want to grab that drink?' Yes!

We leave together and she asks where we're going to go to get a drink. I use the following lines that I've been a fan of for a while now: "I know a place... The drinks are cheap, it's quiet enough to have a conversation, and we have full control over the music. Plus they serve complimentary snacks." "Oh really? What place is this?" "My place!" She agrees. She comes over, provides no LMR, and the rest is history :)

2. I've been paying more attention how my body/face reacts around people in the last month or so. Because of this, I've started to notice how it changes when socializing. I can feel when my face changes from comfortable to tense, or if tiny places on my face make a twitch. Basically, I've been better noticing how I physically change when confronted with even minimal social anxiety. Interesting stuff. Anyway, this is good because now I'm better able to see what my body does during social interactions and to make corrections.

Similarly, I'm better noticing how my frame changes when socializing. When not, I feel more like me taking on the world or imposing my will on the world. I feel confident. But when even the slightest bit of socializing starts, whether from women or anyone else, I can feel a change. I can feel my sense start looking inside of me (getting in my own head). In other words, when I socialize, even with men, seniors, or children, I can feel I don't "impose my will" the same as when I'm not socializing. Again, this is a good catch as now I can work on it. I view it as a strange frame habit. I need to keep working to reprogram my mind to not cave into my head at the slightest bit of socializing or anxiety.

3. I've been doing a better job opening my eyes and looking at what I'm seeing at other venues. I'm noticing the couples, I'm noticing the people who are out to have fun but aren't looking to meet others, and I'm noticing the body language for those who are. What makes this important is that in the past, I wouldn't really take considerations like this into account when judging how a night out went. I would feel bad for being turned down by everyone without considering that I wasn't really approaching people who looked approachable... In other words, I was being too hard on myself. This is at least steering me in a more useful direction: Before feeling like shit that you weren't able to seduce the reds and yellows, make sure you're finding as many greens as possible first.
 

Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Jan 17, 2019
Messages
773
Amazing, already have the second lay. Killing it bro! How was the sex - still problems with PE?
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
Amazing, already have the second lay. Killing it bro! How was the sex - still problems with PE?
Thank you! Yes, still a problem. Though I’m 99% sure it’s nothing more than anxiety. Just gonna have to pull 10 more girls or something before I’m finally comfortable enough for Jr to work properly.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
1/1

The trajectory continues of generally losing interest in traditional cold approach.

In my last post, I talked about how I'm doing better to look around at a venue and assess what I see. In the past couple months, all I'm seeing regardless of venue is a huge guy-to-girl ratio, especially guy-to-single-girl ratio. (Excuses: Cuffing season, cold outside, covid keeping the girls away)

Similar to a thread I just commented on - This just seems like a really stupid battle to be playing. Why am I going to venues where there are so many other guys, and almost all of them are taller than me, tatted, etc.? The social pressure is on strongly for women to chase one of them. All I'm doing by going to these venues is hoping I hit the lottery and by luck someone actually chooses me over the other guys.

Please don't read this as negative-talk. I don't know how to communicate this without it sounding negative. I really mean it rationally. Basically, my assessment is, if my ultimate goal is to consistently pull hot pussy, I think I have enough experience approaching strangers that this isn't the most efficient or effective way to go.

It's not fun playing with low odds so often, and having to rely on luck just to get laid from a cute (not hot) girl.

I'm sure this will improve over time. My point isn't to be negative. My point is to be proactive:

What I want to do is find new ways or situations where I can still meet new women, but also boost the attention I command, and my odds.

Again, not trashing on cold approach. I just want to start optimizing and finding better solutions.

Ideas I've brainstormed:

- Photography: Perhaps instead of walking around a club and getting rejected, I can be taking pictures for the venue instead.
- Teach Yoga
- Karaoke
- Start a meetup/FB social group
- Try to find places that are tailored to the types of women that like me (ie. If Latinas like me because I'm way more their type, I should go where they go - not where western women go who are looking for their tall blondes).

I'm curious if anyone has any suggestions, or guidance on how to achieve any of these.

Photography:
I have no idea how to get into this (getting a club to say okay you can come in and take photos for us) and would hate to invest a lot of money into this if it's ultimately fruitless or a bad idea.

Teach Yoga:
I have no passion for yoga and it's only on my list in order to meet women. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me. I'm very much into strength/power lifting with barbells. That's way more my passion, but obviously that's not as female dominant as yoga.

Meetup/FB Social Group:
Kind of self explanatory, but any tips for attracting girls in their 20s to the group? Any suggestion on what topic? Was thinking a general social group where we meetup at restaurants, bars kind of places.

Happy New Year!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
2/22

New things:
- I've started doing karaoke
- I'm exploring new venues
- I'm trying a new beard style
- I plan to get rid of the grays in my hair and see if that helps
- I started a FB social group
- I started attending new meetups
- I found a local men's group to attend
- I think I'm making progress on my PE/anxiety
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
2/24

I believe I have identified the very deep negative beliefs that have been holding me back, unbeknownst to me.

1. Deep down, I believe I am not good enough for high quality people, whether that's wealthy, successful people or beautiful women. They've always seemed to live in a completely different world. In childhood, I associated success with special talents or advantages. Successful people just had natural gifts that I did not - such as a very sharp wit or photographic memory for my peers in the classroom, or athletic ability for my peers who played sports. Attractive people were similar. Just by their appearance, they attracted friends and romantic partners. I demonstrably did not have the same mental sharpness, athleticism, or sex appeal so I easily accepted that I am a lower level lifeform. There are people out there who are better than me. Above me.

2. Deep down, I believe I offer no value to others. Again, similar rationale. Why would anyone like me in school? How could I ever be one of the popular kids? I was one of the few middle class kids in my wealthy school system (which you bet was a huge factor in me not seeming to be at the same level as everyone else), I had no athletic ability, no cool talents, and wasn't physically attractive. What value could anyone possibly see in me, particularly a value that is strong and shows that I'm worth being friends with/being in a relationship with/sleeping with over others? Any positive traits about me seem minor compared to the traits I don't have.

Today, CBT has helped me identify that these are negative, false beliefs. They aren't true. They are lies.

I cognitively know this, but these beliefs are still lingering around.

Perhaps it's just that I'm trying to break 25-year-old thought habits and it's going to take a lonnnnnggggg time to correct them.

Sometimes I feel like my results/lack of results with women help reinforce these beliefs. Ex. Women don't chase me, so I must be lacking something. Ex. Hot women seem to barely acknowledge my presence, so I must be lacking something.

Identifying these negative beliefs means I can now target the possibly two single biggest beliefs holding me back.

My plan of attack will include:
- CBT to fill my head with positive thoughts and accepting that these two beliefs are lies. Basically the idea is, start repeating positive thoughts each and every day, and you'll rewire your brain.

Not sure what else to do in addition to this, other than to keep googling to try and better understand how one actually is enough and has real, desirable value. If anyone has any recommendations on how to tackle these specific negative beliefs, that would be awesome. Book recommendations, articles, videos, etc.
 

Starboy

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Apr 2, 2018
Messages
485
2/24

I believe I have identified the very deep negative beliefs that have been holding me back, unbeknownst to me.

1. Deep down, I believe I am not good enough for high quality people, whether that's wealthy, successful people or beautiful women. They've always seemed to live in a completely different world. In childhood, I associated success with special talents or advantages. Successful people just had natural gifts that I did not - such as a very sharp wit or photographic memory for my peers in the classroom, or athletic ability for my peers who played sports. Attractive people were similar. Just by their appearance, they attracted friends and romantic partners. I demonstrably did not have the same mental sharpness, athleticism, or sex appeal so I easily accepted that I am a lower level lifeform. There are people out there who are better than me. Above me.

2. Deep down, I believe I offer no value to others. Again, similar rationale. Why would anyone like me in school? How could I ever be one of the popular kids? I was one of the few middle class kids in my wealthy school system (which you bet was a huge factor in me not seeming to be at the same level as everyone else), I had no athletic ability, no cool talents, and wasn't physically attractive. What value could anyone possibly see in me, particularly a value that is strong and shows that I'm worth being friends with/being in a relationship with/sleeping with over others? Any positive traits about me seem minor compared to the traits I don't have.

Today, CBT has helped me identify that these are negative, false beliefs. They aren't true. They are lies.

I cognitively know this, but these beliefs are still lingering around.

Perhaps it's just that I'm trying to break 25-year-old thought habits and it's going to take a lonnnnnggggg time to correct them.

Sometimes I feel like my results/lack of results with women help reinforce these beliefs. Ex. Women don't chase me, so I must be lacking something. Ex. Hot women seem to barely acknowledge my presence, so I must be lacking something.

Identifying these negative beliefs means I can now target the possibly two single biggest beliefs holding me back.

My plan of attack will include:
- CBT to fill my head with positive thoughts and accepting that these two beliefs are lies. Basically the idea is, start repeating positive thoughts each and every day, and you'll rewire your brain.

Not sure what else to do in addition to this, other than to keep googling to try and better understand how one actually is enough and has real, desirable value. If anyone has any recommendations on how to tackle these specific negative beliefs, that would be awesome. Book recommendations, articles, videos, etc.
Hey man i'm someone who struggles a lot with negative limiting beliefs myself. In fact in my last journal entry I mentioned how I think on a unconscious level I don't feel worthy for beautiful sexy women cuz I haven't been with a girl I thought looked super attractive. Even if i'm not actively thinking it consciously I will see a girl I think is hot and will sometimes have this feeling of doubt that she might be too hot and maybe too high value for me to realistically get her.

All of these insecurities are a reflection of bad inner game. Vision linked a post in my journal with a conversation about frames and the kinda of frames winners set. I'd give that a read. Also read Tony's articles on inner game he specializes in that.

Inner game gets criticism for being emphasized because having inner game is pointless if you're not active and becomes less of a problem when your outer game and technique is really good. A realization I developed recently is it becomes super important to have strong inner game as an anchor when you're struggling and not getting the results you want. Guys get discouraged and wanna quit when things aren't going well,but understanding and accepting that there will always be lows associated with pickup will take you further and keep you from flaming out. Hope this helped.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
@Starboy - After reading through your journal, yes, you definitely have some deep limiting beliefs. I can tell just by the way you write. Make sure to prioritize getting it addressed. Don't ignore it. Don't think rock solid outer game can cover it up, because it can't.

Glad to see in your reply here you already understand how bad inner game will limit you. Personally, I think the inner game/outer debate is nonsense. Both are a necessity to do well with women. And if a man is really messed up in his head, no outer game is going to compensate for that.

Thank you for highlighting Vision's post. I read it and it's definitely on the money. It's the same concept I talked about in my post here. The negative beliefs in our heads are frames. By pounding positive thoughts, or something specific like Vision's "I am a winner" thought, into our heads, we can reframe the way our brains think.

Long-time thoughts and beliefs are long-time habits. It's going to take a lot of positive thoughts and a good amount of time to rewire our brains. But as long as we stick to it, it'll happen.
 

DonKiwi

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Mar 4, 2022
Messages
10
@ElderPrice ,

I've just read all your journal and I find your way of writing downs thoughts very good, you seem to be very aware of your thoughts and emotions which allows you to spot your inner problems and then find a solution. It's quite rare to find such level of awareness and you got ever better during this journey, really good job.

If I may ask, what percentage of the women you approached was taller or as tall as you? What's your height? I read you pointing at this factor multiple times so I was curious to know more about it.
 
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ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
@ElderPrice ,

I've just read all your journal and I find your way of writing downs thoughts very good, you seem to be very aware of your thoughts and emotions which allows you to spot your inner problems and then find a solution. It's quite rare to find such level of awareness and you got ever better during this journey, really good job.

If I may ask, what percentage of the women you approached was taller or as tall as you? What's your height? I read you pointing at this factor multiple times so I was curious to know more about it.
Thank you very much, I appreciate your kind words.

I'm about 5'6. Hmm I'm not sure about the percentage, but taller women are definitely the minority.

I try to focus on women shortly than me, especially very short as they're most receptive to me. But aside from that, I've never cared about height, so I'll go after whoever I find physically attractive. That makes it a bell curve kind of thing. So most girls I've approached are around my height since that's average for them. A small number are short girls because there's just fewer of them, same with taller girls.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
3/22 Deeper into Elder's mind

I'm happy to say that I'm making progress addressing the previously mentioned negative beliefs. A number of exercises have helped me think positively more often, and I'm making progress building belief in myself that I am good enough, worthy, capable, deserving, and valuable. Still a long way to go to get where I want, but progress is being made.

This next part is going to sound like a downer, but it's not. As I've been working on the previously mentioned beliefs, I've uncovered a deeper, stronger belief. I think it's a belief that's solidified over the past six or so months where approaching women has been absolutely brutal (cuffing season, winter, covid).

That belief is:
I strongly believe that girls just don't want me.

Unfortunately this has been built with lots of supporting evidence (confirmation bias).

Of all the beliefs, this is one of the worst you could probably have.

What's fascinating is that I can feel exactly when it kicks in. It's like a negative sinking feeling that kicks in immediately upon seeing an attractive girl that catches my eye. I could feel great from being with friends, or from getting stuff done at work, or crushing it at the gym, but then when a cute girl walks by... BAM. Everything sinks. It's not a fear. It's a belief that I have no shot with her.

I used to feel excited to approach. I used to have more faith and more belief in the process. But the last six months or so really must have really beat the shit out of me mentally. All I saw during that time was incredibly unfavorable ratios when out and about, plus harsh rejections from every girl I tried talking to. At this point, I can't remember the last girl that even so much as flirted with me.

This belief needs to be corrected urgently because this is one of those self-fulfilling prophecy beliefs. Because the truth is, whatever you believe about the world, becomes true. As long as I believe that girls don't want me, they won't.

I'm having a hard time overturning this belief. The task is: I have to convince myself, without evidence, that all I'm seeing is confirmation bias and that the truth is that young, attractive girls actually do want me.

I know I have to believe this. I want to believe this. But it's really hard when so many girls show such strong disinterest.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to tackle this belief, I'd appreciate it.

To end on a positive note, it's VERY GOOD NEWS that I identified this belief. If it's as strong and powerful as I think it is, then that means I'll be in very good shape once I get it corrected.

Believing to the core that you're awesome and that women yearn for you will create an incredible reality!
 

Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
773
The last six months a girl hasn't so much as flirted with you - what about that girl you slept with around November/December? That was less than 6 months ago ;)
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
3/22 Deeper into Elder's mind

I'm happy to say that I'm making progress addressing the previously mentioned negative beliefs. A number of exercises have helped me think positively more often, and I'm making progress building belief in myself that I am good enough, worthy, capable, deserving, and valuable. Still a long way to go to get where I want, but progress is being made.

This next part is going to sound like a downer, but it's not. As I've been working on the previously mentioned beliefs, I've uncovered a deeper, stronger belief. I think it's a belief that's solidified over the past six or so months where approaching women has been absolutely brutal (cuffing season, winter, covid).

That belief is:
I strongly believe that girls just don't want me.

Unfortunately this has been built with lots of supporting evidence (confirmation bias).

Of all the beliefs, this is one of the worst you could probably have.

What's fascinating is that I can feel exactly when it kicks in. It's like a negative sinking feeling that kicks in immediately upon seeing an attractive girl that catches my eye. I could feel great from being with friends, or from getting stuff done at work, or crushing it at the gym, but then when a cute girl walks by... BAM. Everything sinks. It's not a fear. It's a belief that I have no shot with her.

I used to feel excited to approach. I used to have more faith and more belief in the process. But the last six months or so really must have really beat the shit out of me mentally. All I saw during that time was incredibly unfavorable ratios when out and about, plus harsh rejections from every girl I tried talking to. At this point, I can't remember the last girl that even so much as flirted with me.

This belief needs to be corrected urgently because this is one of those self-fulfilling prophecy beliefs. Because the truth is, whatever you believe about the world, becomes true. As long as I believe that girls don't want me, they won't.

I'm having a hard time overturning this belief. The task is: I have to convince myself, without evidence, that all I'm seeing is confirmation bias and that the truth is that young, attractive girls actually do want me.

I know I have to believe this. I want to believe this. But it's really hard when so many girls show such strong disinterest.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to tackle this belief, I'd appreciate it.

To end on a positive note, it's VERY GOOD NEWS that I identified this belief. If it's as strong and powerful as I think it is, then that means I'll be in very good shape once I get it corrected.

Believing to the core that you're awesome and that women yearn for you will create an incredible reality!

There is a cost to trying to believe something that repeatedly turns out untrue. You can believe something for a short while, but your subconscious mind will eventually start pushing back harder and harder, especially when what you are trying to believe is putting you in situations that the subconscious has identified with a threat (even just strong negative emotion).

If you keep trying harder and harder, what happens is that a kind of dissociation occurs, where what happens above and below the surface of the consciousness becomes increasingly separated, resulting in sudden uncontrolled reactions and emotional turbulence when a specific event comes up.

This is what happens spontaneously in trauma, where the conscious mind rejects reality as being impossibly painful, and tries to cover it up with a different understanding of reality. But it can also happen over a long period of time, when an attempt to successfully navigate a difficult situation fails over and over again, and you invest a lot of conscious energy into replacing negative emotion with positive while still suffering a negative feedback.

Obviously, this is not a great place to be mentally. I have experienced it myself, especially when I was younger and went through some pretty negative times. And I believe there is only one way that really works, long term, to defeat it. And that is to put oneself in what I call a 'working state'.

A working state is a state where you can work with yourself with as little ego or emotions involved, facing as much reality as possible with as much logic as possible. A frame of mind where you accept that your perception of reality is untrue, and that you will re-build your perception with only what you can see and reason with. Meditation helps.

Put it like this: you say many girls rejected you harshly, right? When considering this, the mind instinctively starts a battle between two things: the belief that 'girls just don't like me', and the protective belief that girls 'love me'. The former has more evidence in its favor, so it's very hard for the opposite belief to somehow just win.

Instead of this, reject both of these beliefs, and identify them simply as emotional judgements. Instead, calm your emotions as much as possible and look at it rationally. These girls don't know you. They MUST be reacting to something they see, not some understanding of who you are. Accept this as a positive reduction of a logical problem. Then say "I must find out what they SEE when they look at me". Not what they believe about you, but what they actually see, on your face, in your movements and vibe. The problem MUST be something visible, which means that it's something you could see as well if you wanted to.

Then say "I know other guys with all my characteristics who do well with girls" because it's true, right? This prepares you to look at the truth of the problem because you KNOW there's a solution that you could reach too, if only you accepted the truth of how things are.

Then, begin the journey of examining yourself during the event:

- Do I feel happy when approaching girls? Why not, if they are something I really want? I know I can enjoy myself with them, what has hijacked my mind? If I imagine having a great time with a girl, why is this not how I feel when going up to her?

- If I don't feel happy, do I have any rational basis for thinking I will get a positive reaction? How would I feel if a stranger walked up to me with a tense or unhappy look and tried to make me feel good? What if they were physically intimidating (as men are for women)? Probably not good. This starts to makes sense!

- Why do I react negatively? Is it when I see a girl or when I think of approaching? Can I walk past her and make eye contact without feeling bad? Can I enjoy being near her without feeling anxious? Can I just go and talk to her without trying to pick her up without feeling bad? What point triggers the reaction, and how close can I get without triggering it? If I can get close to the trigger without triggering it, maybe I can stop and try to perceive exactly how the trigger works, and different ways of dealing with it.

When you work diligently and rationally on emotional problems, your emotions will rearrange themselves in synchronization with your work rather than the problem you are working on. This is important, because you can always do work, but you cannot always choose the problems you have to deal with.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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The last six months a girl hasn't so much as flirted with you - what about that girl you slept with around November/December? That was less than 6 months ago ;)
About six months. I rounded up :p
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
@Will_V -

Thank you again for your time and help. I want you to know something. I consider you my role model when it comes to inner game/attaining mastery over one's thoughts. I can tell in how you write, and in the stories you've told about your challenges that you've overcome, that you have a rock solid head on your shoulders. Your mind is calm, cool, collected, strong, and forged through hardship. I haven't met anyone in person with such mastery of their thoughts. I enjoy every single post you make on this board, and I hope to one day overcome my issues and have a mind like yours.

I originally read your reply early this morning, and during the day I had a thought about your 'working state' concept. Could this possibly be described as simply not overthinking what you're trying to cognitively solve, and also not overworking?

The idea that crossed my mind today is that I think I've overdone it lately. One of my faults here is lack of patience, so for the last month or so, I've tried dedicating as much free mental time as possible to working on my negative thoughts. This has an obvious drawback: If you spend a lot of time each day on your negative thoughts, you're going to be spending a lot of time each day thinking about your negative thoughts. You'll be spending a lot of time in negativity. This isn't good. You get help by adding positive thoughts.

There's also just not that much to think about:
You identified the negative belief? Check.
You identified the rational thoughts and positive beliefs to replace it? Check.
Then that's it. There's no more thinking to be done. No more dwelling or ruminating. No more consciously exploring. Just stop thinking and start 'taking the medicine' that you identified.

Not sure if this is exactly what you're describing with your 'working state,' but I think it's close. You're able to make progress when your mind is at peace. Not when it's being dragged down in negative emotions.

These girls don't know you. They MUST be reacting to something they see, not some understanding of who you are. Accept this as a positive reduction of a logical problem. Then say "I must find out what they SEE when they look at me". Not what they believe about you, but what they actually see, on your face, in your movements and vibe. The problem MUST be something visible, which means that it's something you could see as well if you wanted to.

Agreed completely and I believe we've discussed something like this before. I've tried to find this out my entire journey, and I have to be careful because this is a very easy rabbit hole to fall in and start dwelling on appearance and believing I'm 'not good enough.' Here is all I have at the moment:
- My problem is not my wardrobe/hair/visible hygiene. I'm never the most fashionable guy, but I follow all the best practices, and when I've asked multiple people (even coaches) for feedback, nobody has ever said that any of these are an issue.
- Therefore, as best as I can tell, that leaves only two remaining things: Girls see my short height, and/or girls see bad body language/anxiety/tension.

Obviously there's not much that can be done about height, so I've been working on these possible visible anxiety cues for as long as we've been discussing it. So, I don't know what else to do here other than keep working on it.

Then say "I know other guys with all my characteristics who do well with girls" because it's true, right? This prepares you to look at the truth of the problem because you KNOW there's a solution that you could reach too, if only you accepted the truth of how things are.

Unfortunately not. I have yet to meet a guy like me (mainly, a guy as short as me) that does well with women. Haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I'm always looking because I would LOVE to be friends with that guy and have a mentor like that.

But to your point, I do believe some solution exists, and the best I can think of based on all my knowledge is that my only pathway is, what feels like to me, is spam approach. The logic being, hot girls aren't going to give an IOI so all you can do is assume girls are interested but are afraid to show it, approach every hot, single-looking girl you see since you have no idea if they're into you or not, then just hopefully you find one that hooks after the approach.

Do I feel happy when approaching girls? Why not, if they are something I really want? I know I can enjoy myself with them, what has hijacked my mind? If I imagine having a great time with a girl, why is this not how I feel when going up to her?

No, at the moment approaching girls doesn't make me feel happy. It feels like work. Like a box I have to check to have a prayer to make progress in that department. Maybe I can't tell what negative emotion I'm actually feeling. It's a down, sinking feeling. My best guess is it's a belief that the interaction for certain won't go anywhere, even if I get her number, even if I get a date, even if I pull her. Throughout my journey, it's been so incredibly rare to find a legit hook - a girl that doesn't want me to leave. I've also explored if it could be a belief that I'm not good enough for hot girls, or not capable of being the man they want, or not deserving of having a hot girl. Again, can't tell exactly what the emotion is.

Why do I react negatively? Is it when I see a girl or when I think of approaching? Can I walk past her and make eye contact without feeling bad? Can I enjoy being near her without feeling anxious? Can I just go and talk to her without trying to pick her up without feeling bad? What point triggers the reaction, and how close can I get without triggering it? If I can get close to the trigger without triggering it, maybe I can stop and try to perceive exactly how the trigger works, and different ways of dealing with it.

It's when I notice she's hot/cute and the kind of girl I want to meet. I kind of have to force myself to make eye contact, and remind myself to smile (overcoming habits here of not doing these). Interestingly, I still feel weird just trying to talk to her even not trying to pick her up or say anything flirty. It's that face they make that's just such a dagger. That disturbed/judgy face that feels like it's saying 'you? seriously? ew. no.' And it's not just the face it's the body language. It just screams that they don't want to talk to me and they're just doing it to be nice. The body language that says they're uncomfortable the more I hang around and engage in conversation. Seeing them turn partially away, or just never fully turn to and engage me. Then I watch when an 'attractive' guy walks up. The girls' faces light up. Huge smiles. Body language directly at the guy. I've seen this when me and a buddy are talking to a girl. The girl seems to always LOCK eyes with my buddy, and she usually won't look at me again unless I say something.

Interesting how deep that went :)

So yeah the rest of your questions here are what I've been doing when going out the past couple weeks. I've been trying to pay attention and notice when that sinking feeling emerges. It's been going well. The cognitive work I've done has helped me tell when it kicks in. I've noticed it of course when girls blatantly give a harsh rejection, but now I've been able to notice its presence even in far subtler situations.

Anyway, I don't know if you were asking for answers to these questions or more so being rhetorical. Either way, I figured I'd reply to hopefully just open up and see what happens.

That dagger response was sure interesting. Definitely goes back to childhood of seeming to never be a part of the cool kids and never learning how to properly interpret the behavior from others I was receiving. Not sure if this adds much, as either way I still plan to work on all these identified negative, irrational beliefs and replacing them with positive, rational ones.

Thanks again Will. You're the man.
 
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