ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

Don Giovanni

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Unfortunately not. I have yet to meet a guy like me (mainly, a guy as short as me) that does well with women. Haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I'm always looking because I would LOVE to be friends with that guy and have a mentor like that.
You probably wont be friends with them, but to name a few: Prince, Al Pacino, Charlie Chaplin, Pablo Picasso, Bruno Mars, Roger Daltrey… Pretty much most of the rockstars are short, Eddie Vedder, Bruce Dickinson, Thom Yorke, Trent Reznor, Dio, the singer from Greta Van Fleet and I’m sure they’ve had their share.

Also you can buy platform shoes that look cool, these kind of things are in now. I own these:


Or chelsea boots with a bigger heel or you can put hight increase insoles in your shoes. If you look cool, no one will think “oh, he’s trying to make himself look higher” or even if someone does, who cares? I mean girls do it all the time with high heels, why shouldn’t you get an extra inch?
 

Will_V

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@ElderPrice glad my posts are helpful to you!

@Will_V -

Thank you again for your time and help. I want you to know something. I consider you my role model when it comes to inner game/attaining mastery over one's thoughts. I can tell in how you write, and in the stories you've told about your challenges that you've overcome, that you have a rock solid head on your shoulders. Your mind is calm, cool, collected, strong, and forged through hardship. I haven't met anyone in person with such mastery of their thoughts. I enjoy every single post you make on this board, and I hope to one day overcome my issues and have a mind like yours.

I originally read your reply early this morning, and during the day I had a thought about your 'working state' concept. Could this possibly be described as simply not overthinking what you're trying to cognitively solve, and also not overworking?

It's much simpler than that. The idea is simply to stop letting emotion run the show, and start using rationality to build a clear concept of what the problems are and how you can succeed.

You can't turn off your emotions. That's not what it's about, and trying to force emotion away is counterproductive (it simply makes the emotions bury themselves outside of perception and then and emerge outside of your control). What it is, is disconnecting the emotion from the concept you have of the situation, what is wrong, and what can be done.

The truth is that what someone believes will eventually reprogram their emotions, for better or worse. Trying to transplant beliefs (I am good vs I am no good), in my opinion, doesn't work at all. Instead, the idea is to examine the problem rationally in terms of cause and effect on a moment to moment basis, and when you see a cause for a negative effect, you can say "well until I correct this, I have no basis for believing any other reason why I have this problem". Since this is logical it is very hard to un-believe it.

For example, you say that you don't feel happy approaching girls, and that you feel actually quite negative when you consider approaching. That is a loud and clear cause for the negative effect of a rejection. So before you make any other conclusions you can simply accept "well as long as I am approaching in a bad mood, girls will probably not want to be part of that and I will get rejected, so I cannot make any judgements about the rest of me until I at least approach in a good state of mind". So now, you have a clear goal that is outcome independent - approach a girl in a positive state of mind.

If you then approach a girl and you get a rejection, delay your emotional reaction. Simply accept that it happened and ask: did I approach in a way that was clearly enjoying myself? If not, then the question is, how can I start enjoying myself? Why am I not always enjoying myself? Do I have problems with my self-image? Etc.

You can see how you end up with a branching set of possibilities for fixing the problems and improving your abilities without the crushing emotional reaction and judgement of 'I'm not good enough' overruling everything, simply by putting the negative emotion in the waiting room and focusing on what the next thing is that you can do to give yourself the best chance.

The idea that crossed my mind today is that I think I've overdone it lately. One of my faults here is lack of patience, so for the last month or so, I've tried dedicating as much free mental time as possible to working on my negative thoughts. This has an obvious drawback: If you spend a lot of time each day on your negative thoughts, you're going to be spending a lot of time each day thinking about your negative thoughts. You'll be spending a lot of time in negativity. This isn't good. You get help by adding positive thoughts.

Agreed 100%, this is my experience as well. Action to solve a problem, even a tangential problem, is better than thinking about an intractable problem.

There's also just not that much to think about:
You identified the negative belief? Check.
You identified the rational thoughts and positive beliefs to replace it? Check.
Then that's it. There's no more thinking to be done. No more dwelling or ruminating. No more consciously exploring. Just stop thinking and start 'taking the medicine' that you identified.

Not sure if this is exactly what you're describing with your 'working state,' but I think it's close. You're able to make progress when your mind is at peace. Not when it's being dragged down in negative emotions.

The main thing is determining a problem and beginning work on it, not trying to replace beliefs.

Beliefs are not easily replaced. Bad beliefs come from a combination of truth that is not processed correctly and bad habits from previous experiences. The mechanisms for forming them are not simple to understand or oppose. The best thing is to focus on the actions and reactions, cause and effect, not the beliefs.

Agreed completely and I believe we've discussed something like this before. I've tried to find this out my entire journey, and I have to be careful because this is a very easy rabbit hole to fall in and start dwelling on appearance and believing I'm 'not good enough.' Here is all I have at the moment:
- My problem is not my wardrobe/hair/visible hygiene. I'm never the most fashionable guy, but I follow all the best practices, and when I've asked multiple people (even coaches) for feedback, nobody has ever said that any of these are an issue.
- Therefore, as best as I can tell, that leaves only two remaining things: Girls see my short height, and/or girls see bad body language/anxiety/tension.

Obviously there's not much that can be done about height, so I've been working on these possible visible anxiety cues for as long as we've been discussing it. So, I don't know what else to do here other than keep working on it.



Unfortunately not. I have yet to meet a guy like me (mainly, a guy as short as me) that does well with women. Haven't seen it with my own two eyes and I'm always looking because I would LOVE to be friends with that guy and have a mentor like that.

But to your point, I do believe some solution exists, and the best I can think of based on all my knowledge is that my only pathway is, what feels like to me, is spam approach. The logic being, hot girls aren't going to give an IOI so all you can do is assume girls are interested but are afraid to show it, approach every hot, single-looking girl you see since you have no idea if they're into you or not, then just hopefully you find one that hooks after the approach.

I have a very simple philosophy about body and mind. My body is simply a tool, an expendable one, and my mind is what rules it and the reality around it. Even if something happened to my body, my mind would have to make up for it somehow, build a reality around it that supports its weaknesses and bolsters its strengths.

Imagine that you get dropped in a jungle full of tigers somewhere and you need to survive. Let's say the guy next to you is given a machine gun, and you only get a knife. What are you going to do? Your mind will decide the outcome, not the tool that you are given. The tool will affect a single situation to a degree, but the mind can make up for any deficit as long as you don't lose control of it, when it is fully capable of planning, strategizing, and adapting, without being hijacked by overwhelming emotions. It's the mind that is the most powerful tool, do not let it go to waste.

There are guys who walk around with machine guns, so to speak, with so little control of their mind that they quickly lose the game of life. And people who have only the knife, so to speak, who end up building a tree house in the jungle and having all the animals penned underneath.

Man is the weakest of all the animals. No claws, small teeth, soft everywhere and virtually useless one on one with even the smallest predator. It is his mind that elevated him to what he is now, capable of planning his way to success against beasts who could go through a hundred of him before he put a scratch on them. Size and strength were certainly not in his favor - and that's probably why he became what he is now.

Women are instinctive creatures. Of course they respond to things like height and relative advantages or disadvantages that a man has, because on first impression, that's the only difference that can be seen. But every woman knows when she is in the presence of a man who has saddled his mind and made it work for him, she not only feels it emotionally, but knows that it is very rare and incredibly advantageous. But if she sees on the face of a man with disadvantages a crestfallen, defeated look, she can only conclude that they got the better of his mind, and if a man has neither the best tool nor the mind to make good use of a lesser one, what is there for her to surrender to?

Focus on building your mind until it is powerful and capable of making up for any disadvantages.

No, at the moment approaching girls doesn't make me feel happy. It feels like work. Like a box I have to check to have a prayer to make progress in that department. Maybe I can't tell what negative emotion I'm actually feeling. It's a down, sinking feeling. My best guess is it's a belief that the interaction for certain won't go anywhere, even if I get her number, even if I get a date, even if I pull her. Throughout my journey, it's been so incredibly rare to find a legit hook - a girl that doesn't want me to leave. I've also explored if it could be a belief that I'm not good enough for hot girls, or not capable of being the man they want, or not deserving of having a hot girl. Again, can't tell exactly what the emotion is.

Well that is your problem, not anything else but the fact that your state is bad.

It's when I notice she's hot/cute and the kind of girl I want to meet. I kind of have to force myself to make eye contact, and remind myself to smile (overcoming habits here of not doing these). Interestingly, I still feel weird just trying to talk to her even not trying to pick her up or say anything flirty. It's that face they make that's just such a dagger. That disturbed/judgy face that feels like it's saying 'you? seriously? ew. no.' And it's not just the face it's the body language. It just screams that they don't want to talk to me and they're just doing it to be nice. The body language that says they're uncomfortable the more I hang around and engage in conversation. Seeing them turn partially away, or just never fully turn to and engage me. Then I watch when an 'attractive' guy walks up. The girls' faces light up. Huge smiles. Body language directly at the guy. I've seen this when me and a buddy are talking to a girl. The girl seems to always LOCK eyes with my buddy, and she usually won't look at me again unless I say something.

Interesting how deep that went :)

Why can you not enjoy this situation? I enjoy every rejection, no matter how bad. The worst ones are when she simply pretends I don't exist, but even those are funny enough to laugh about.

When girls stares daggers at me, I look her in the eye and smile. It's not like it always works, but I enjoy the feeling of my mind being a fortress against the raging seas. And they see me somehow enjoying it, and even if they really don't like me, it short circuits their programming and they usually end up with some combination of curiosity and petulance on their face.

If she walks away I just laugh and say to myself "probably angry-horny" and move on. But often if you stay relaxed and engaging, moving forward on the basis that she is reacting strongly to you, she will give windows for more.

But the main reason I do it? Because there is nothing better to do, nothing more positive I can experience in that situation.

And besides, what kind of man allows his strength and self-confidence to be sapped at will by a silly, emotional woman? This is an article you need to internalize: https://www.girlschase.com/comment/7098

So yeah the rest of your questions here are what I've been doing when going out the past couple weeks. I've been trying to pay attention and notice when that sinking feeling emerges. It's been going well. The cognitive work I've done has helped me tell when it kicks in. I've noticed it of course when girls blatantly give a harsh rejection, but now I've been able to notice its presence even in far subtler situations.

Anyway, I don't know if you were asking for answers to these questions or more so being rhetorical. Either way, I figured I'd reply to hopefully just open up and see what happens.

That dagger response was sure interesting. Definitely goes back to childhood of seeming to never be a part of the cool kids and never learning how to properly interpret the behavior from others I was receiving. Not sure if this adds much, as either way I still plan to work on all these identified negative, irrational beliefs and replacing them with positive, rational ones.

Thanks again Will. You're the man.

We were all never part of the cool kids group :D that's why we figure things out the hard way. But when we have it figured out, we can make far more use of it than someone just collecting whatever they are given.
 

ElderPrice

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You probably wont be friends with them, but to name a few: Prince, Al Pacino, Charlie Chaplin, Pablo Picasso, Bruno Mars, Roger Daltrey… Pretty much most of the rockstars are short, Eddie Vedder, Bruce Dickinson, Thom Yorke, Trent Reznor, Dio, the singer from Greta Van Fleet and I’m sure they’ve had their share.

Also you can buy platform shoes that look cool, these kind of things are in now. I own these:


Or chelsea boots with a bigger heel or you can put hight increase insoles in your shoes. If you look cool, no one will think “oh, he’s trying to make himself look higher” or even if someone does, who cares? I mean girls do it all the time with high heels, why shouldn’t you get an extra inch?
Had no idea that was a thing. Might have to try it since that's presumably wayyyy more comfortable than inserts. I've tried inserts and they were uncomfortable to walk on for an extended period. Also only good for an inch or two before the shoes became impossible to slip on! Do you notice any clear improvements in reactions/results with them? I didn't notice any difference going out with the inserts.
 

ElderPrice

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Thanks again @Will_V. Lots to think about, digest, and comprehend here, especially in the context of so many other unlisted variables.
 

Don Giovanni

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Do you notice any clear improvements in reactions/results with them?
No not realy. They complimented my all stars a few times because they look cool, thats it.

As I said height doesn’t matter imo. But if lack confidence about it, this is one of the things that might help.
 

ElderPrice

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4/27 Update

Some positive updates in the past few weeks.

Been familiarizing myself more with Dr. Robert Glover's work lately, including reading his Dating Essentials book. For getting your head right, he recommends focusing on things like male friendships, and cultivating your passion/purpose.

As I was going down this path, I figured out why I was in a funk lately. I was in loser mentality, or viewed differently, I wasn't finding any small victories. No winner effect. So I examined my life to try and find some small victories I could do that aren't women related. I chose to improve my finances. I switched to a gym with a much cheaper fee, and I started cutting back on eating out.

I felt good for achieving these small victories, and this alone snapped me out of it.

Also around this time I got a random invite to a speed dating event. I went, had a good time, and matched with three girls. Met up with two of them each to grab a drink, and pulled both home on the first date. I think at this point I feel very comfortable going for the pull on the first date. I forget where I saw the advice, but if you stop thinking about game, just chat for 30-60 minutes, then invite them over, your odds are going to be wayyyy higher than overgaming and being in your head the whole time. So that's all I did. And they agreed to come over.

Unfortunately no sex to report yet. First girl put up firm LMR, but so far is a few texts away from a second date. This has never happened to me before. Anyone I've ever 'blown it' with previously I never heard from again.

With the other girl, unfortunately I had dick issues again. Nothing but high anxiety. But this girl also was a first. She agreed to come over a second time, we watched a movie, I had anxiety again and didn't feel comfortable making a move, and we already have a third date planned.

What's helped me a TON with these girls is going more down the path of embracing my vulnerabilities and communicating it with them, rather than trying to hide anything. The first girl I communicated them with her and that seemed to genuinely increase her interest in me. The second girl it hasn't come up yet, and my plan is to communicate even more on our third date - basically not hide that I want to have sex with her, but I have anxiety, maybe even that it's causing issues.

Meanwhile, I also have a date with a third girl this week. Again, I plan to not hide my vulnerabilities and imperfections and to embrace them, own them, and present them as things that are great about me. Finally, I have a seemingly warm fourth lead from an app, so perhaps that will turn into a fourth girl to meet up with soon.

This positive upswing has also helped me view the previous issue I was trying to communicate from a more rational perspective. So a little bit of progress there.

Hoping I can report some legit sex soon.
 

ElderPrice

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5/13

First, an update on the girls previously mentioned. For the girl I saw for a third time, it was really easy. We went out for a bit, she came over, and this time I made a move. She gave strong LMR even after all my persisting. But her compliance is still sky high and she's down to come over another time, almost any time. I've never dealt with a high-compliance girl like this before. Will enjoy while it lasts.

Best part about this last encounter is that even though we didn't go all the way, I could tell Elder Jr was significantly improved! I was anxious when we started messing around, but after about 30 minutes of foreplay, I relaxed. Because the anxiety was so reduced, I was able to get the biggest erection I've ever had in bed with a girl, and Jr could handle more stimulation without feeling like he was instantly going to explode. I even took her hand and had her stroke Jr - this is the most contact Jr has ever been able to tolerate by far! I'm SUPER EXCITED that the work and techniques I've been putting in to get Jr working seem to be helping!

The other mentioned girls all ended up flaking.

Now for the other part of my update. I think I've been making progress on getting a clearer grasp of the attraction issue I've tried describing in previous posts. I know my mind and comments have been all over the place on the subject, so I'm just going to write what I've been thinking lately. Not necessarily with any context or referring to any particular previous comment.

The issue I've been trying to find a clear answer for is, stated generally and succinctly: When I approach hot girls (translation: girls who qualify as me 'aiming higher'), they're effectively never interested. When I sit back and try to wait for IOIs, they effectively don't exist. The conundrum I've been considering is: Do I therefore work on being more attractive, or am I fine and just not approaching enough women?

Recently I rediscovered the concept of SMV - Sexual Market Value. The idea is that in a social situation, your attractiveness can have a kind of score relative to other guys. In other words, it's not fixed - it can be a changing metric. If you're an average western guy and we plop you into a less developed country (or something like that), you'll have a higher SMV. The following traits are now working for you: you're foreign, exotic, you stand out from the rest, presumably far wealthier than the rest, possibly taller than the rest, etc.

If you're an average western guy but we plop you into a model and star athlete convention, you'll have a lower SMV: The other men there are athletic, very good looking, and wealthy or potential to be wealthy. There's not much you can do. You're going to have a difficult time.

I'm liking this metric because I think it helps illustrate what I've seen and experienced on my journey:

Q: Why is it so rare to find women, especially women I like (me 'aiming higher'), to take interest in me?
A: My natural SMV just isn't that high. Even though I hit so many of the standard recommendations (fit/muscles, good haircut, good facial hair, clean, good looking clothes that fit, good posture, good social skills, etc), I still have the drawbacks of being short and let's just say I don't look like a model.

Q: Why don't attractive women try to get my attention in bars and clubs?
A: Why would they? Just going based off what they see, the majority of guys in that venue are taller, also have muscles and decent clothes, and many have other additions like tattoos. In essence, I look like everyone else *minus* some features. There's no way I can have a high SMV just walking into the usual bar or club (at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why haven't I had any success from day game?
A: Why would you? A girl sees your confidence in approaching her, but again, that's about it. She has so many other sources to find more attractive guys, that your confidence, charm, and conversation skills just won't be enough. Your SMV just isn't high enough compared to her other options (again, at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why don't I do better with online dating?
A: Competition, if nothing other than the sheer number of guys on apps. If the ratio is really something like 70-30 guys to girls, then girls have no choice but to spend their brief time assessing the top guys. My SMV will always be lower here (again, at the moment, generally speaking).

Q: Why do I seem to get stronger interest at speed dating kind of events?
A: I think one reason for sure is that these events seem to attract older, more desperate women, but besides that, they also seem to attract needy, awkward men. It makes sense there that my SMV might actually be high at events like this, compared to the other guys in attendance.

If these SMV observations are fair and accurate, what can be gathered from it?

In my opinion, the best takeaway is to stop focusing too much on 'absolute' SMV - things like looks and appearance. Don't get me wrong, one should always keep working to improve these. I just mean, for example, a decently dressed short guy becoming a well dressed short guy probably isn't going to be a night-and-day kind of transformation.

The better thing to do would be to focus on improving 'situational' SMV - such as, stop going to venues where you're always going to be lower SMV and instead find or create situations where you'll be high SMV.

I think this makes a lot of sense and is something that can make a BIG impact, rather than a couple percentage point improvement.

This is what I've started thinking about previously and what I'm continuing to think about. What hobbies or activities can put me in a high SMV position? Such as a leadership position, or on a stage? Karaoke? Organizing events?

At this point I have to figure out something that I want to do that I'm genuinely interested in. I want to do something that I'm doing not just to get pussy. Something I will enjoy. Nothing has ever really been a strong calling for me, so I might just have to hold my nose, try stuff, and see if anything clicks that I'm good at.
 

fog

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Elder, I suggest you look into state control as a way to increase your SMV temporarily.

With solid state control skills, you can release a flood of chemicals into your brain.

And the more brain chemicals you release, the more intense your state gets.

And the more intense your state gets...the more high value you come across.

Think back to the times in your life where you were riding the euphoric waves of happiness. Or when you melted into a puddle of serene calmness while petting an animal.

These are the some of the feelings you can tap into on command...to generate interest from higher quality women.

With a bit of work....you can do this effortlessly. And accomplish your goal of increasing your SMV.
 
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ElderPrice

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@fog - Thank you! Thanks for sharing that awesome series and for reminding me that I left out of my update a bit on this exact topic!

I've been working on exactly this!

There are two thoughts/cues that I came across lately that revealed some stuff to me. Those cues are: 1. Your state of peace already exists inside you. Find it. and 2. Imagine that every time you walk into a room, you make all the women wet.

These are examples of exactly what you're talking about. When I do these exercises, what I found is that I can actually feel my body change and relax.

For #1, my eyes close a bit, my chest puffs up a little, I breathe deeper, and my face relaxes.

For #2, pretty much the same but with the addition of that natural flirtatious smirk that's been mentioned in many GC articles.

I'm interpreting this as that my natural appearance/vibe/state just isn't great. As I've discussed with @Will_V previously, there's obviously some default anxiety on my face that I need to work on getting rid of.

I'm excited to keep working on this. It'll take a LONG time, but there's a lot of room for improvement here.

I will mention also for the sake of discussion, I still have doubts that these improvements will have any noticeable effect on my results. There have been some times where I've been in a great 'state,' and it didn't make a difference as far as getting attention from beautiful women.

Doesn't matter. I'm still going to continue working on it regardless.
 

ElderPrice

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5/28 Update - Major discovery

This week I stumbled across some recent RSD Julien/Owen videos. For those that don't know, RSD is all about inner and natural game.

I watched hours of videos since I haven't last checked them out for about a year.

WHAM. Those videos helped reveal something HUGE about myself:

I seek external validation from every. single. social interaction, and have my entire life since childhood. I am also very much reactive to others, even to a super subtle degree.

Reflecting on this idea, and observing myself this week when talking with ANYONE, whether a cute girl, a close friend, or even children, I can FEEL myself acting low value, DESPITE the work I've done to *present* a charming, charismatic, fun person developed over the past few years.

This is super weird and interesting because I'm doing this despite consciously not caring about the approval of others. I think it's mostly a subconscious habit. As a very young child, I unknowingly started seeking approval and validation from others, and for 30ish years I unknowingly reinforced that belief or behavior every time I socialized.

This explains everything and again now that I'm aware of this, I can FEEL it in every social interaction. I can feel myself deep on the inside being needy and letting others affect me.

At this point, all I really want to know is if anyone has a book or therapy recommendation on how to best address this. I'd like some specific exercises to address it.

Thank you!

P.S. @Will_V @fog With this realization, I'm believing more that you guys hit the nail on the head. Thank you again for your feedback. I honestly had no idea I was doing this when were had our previous discussions. This discovery strongly supports both of your general positions if I may summarize as: Yes, there is something in your head holding you back.
 

ElderPrice

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Jotting down some notes.

I started reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. Already it's helped me step back from my thoughts and emotions and to just observe them.

Today I went to the gym and just watched how I felt and thought.

Observations:

My head definitely gets weird with women, especially attractive women. Put me in a gym with only guys, give me two hours, and I could befriend everyone in the building. No problem. I can do this because there's nothing I want from them. I would be enjoying myself, and would want to share my positive energy with everyone. It would be easy to be a source of positivity without wanting anything in return.

With women, I can feel myself just act different. I want something from them (sex). Here's the best way to describe how I feel: If an attractive woman approached me, flirted with me, wanted my attention, and gamed me, then I honestly wouldn't turn her down (assuming no weird vibes). In other words, if a woman offered what my subconscious wants, I'd jump at it. I'd react strongly to it. I'd be way too easy. I wouldn't be a challenge at all.

This is of course the exact opposite of how to act - er, rather, how to *be* - around women.

I'm not going to overanalyze and try and figure out some microscopic cause. Honestly I don't even know if there is a cause like that. It doesn't feel like it. Here's the simple diagnosis that I think might be correct: I simply have an automatic irrational reaction around women.

For my plan of attack, I want to make sure I'm spotting and correcting the behavior, and not just masking it with other things. For instance, yeah a stronger purpose, friendships, etc will help, but they're not going to erase an automatic behavior that's probably been a habit in the brain for 20+ years.

If I'm happy enough with my life to be able to make guy friends super easily, then there's no reason I should be acting weird with women. I have the same happy life. Let's address the weird, automatic behavior.

That's just my thought at the moment.
 

ElderPrice

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6/25 MAJOR EPIPHANY

As I've continued to study the concepts in The Power of Now, I recently had a major epiphany. For the first time ever, I started to understand what the ego is.

According to Tolle, the ego simply isn't you. It's a different entity that's intertwined with your thoughts and emotions (also not you) and it acts almost exclusively to defend and protect itself, even from change.

The real you - the consciousness behind your thoughts and emotions - is the superstar we want to unleash upon the world. If you're like me, then the real you likes yourself, is a decision maker, often feels joy and peace in life, has standards and values, and truly doesn't need any outside things to feel happy. The real you isn't intimated by women - it knows they are just silly and cute, and you enjoy interacting with them.

So why do you experience anxiety? Why is it so hard to change even though so many concepts seem easy, and you consciously fully agree with them?

If you're like me, then it's not you - it's your ego.

Your ego created this image of you, this identity, based on the negative thoughts and emotions it feeds on. It tenses you up and gives you anxiety when you see a beautiful woman because it created for you the identity of someone who doesn't get women like that. The ego screams at you not to approach because she's going to reject you and provide proof, and that's going to cause pain.

I believe effectively every issue I've ever experienced and documented here has been the result of my ego, not necessarily the real me.

Every single time I'd comment on being stuck on the same thing, it was because we unknowingly were trying to change my ego. Every time I'd comment on suspecting some 'deeply held belief' or 'long-term mental habit' causing my issues that I yet couldn't put my finger on, I didn't realize the habit was an egoic reaction, not necessarily a belief.

The habit I need to overcome isn't some deep thoughts I can't even identify - it's simply my neural pathway of letting the ego control my social interactions.

I've been testing this lately now that I've learned how to truly monitor my thoughts and emotions.

- When I see a woman I'd like to meet, I can feel how my authentic self stays cool, calm, and uncaring of the outcome, yet this other entity - my ego - kicks in and brings the negative thoughts and emotions.
- I can feel the instant my ego activates and tries to take over.
- I can feel the negative thoughts and emotions are clearly separate from my authentic, true self.

Moving forward, my mission is clear. Continue identifying when my ego tries to take control, and slowly continue the process of dissolving his influence so that the REAL ME can take control of all my social interactions.

With control over my thoughts, emotions, and ego, my negative downturns will be no more and I will finally let my attractive, authentic self shine.
 

Railer

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
244
While I agree with the approach, and it surely helped me as a step in the right direction, you might as well skip the next ten years of externalizing "ego" as something "not you" and instead jump right into integrating it as, yes, part of you - A part of you that very much does require your care and being treated kindly. You wouldn't kick an autistic child for having an emotional outbreak. You would try to calm it as much as possible, hug it, while trying not to be invasive to its space and just be there for it.

Pierce your fingernail into your forearm. You'll find you can't "control" the emotion away. You can, however, realize it's not damaging and thus decide not to freak out over potentially bleeding out.

Hope that makes sense.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
While I agree with the approach, and it surely helped me as a step in the right direction, you might as well skip the next ten years of externalizing "ego" as something "not you" and instead jump right into integrating it as, yes, part of you - A part of you that very much does require your care and being treated kindly. You wouldn't kick an autistic child for having an emotional outbreak. You would try to calm it as much as possible, hug it, while trying not to be invasive to its space and just be there for it.

Pierce your fingernail into your forearm. You'll find you can't "control" the emotion away. You can, however, realize it's not damaging and thus decide not to freak out over potentially bleeding out.

Hope that makes sense.
It does and I don't disagree. It reminds me of the concept that it's necessary to accept yourself as you are. You can work on yourself, but you also have to accept yourself at the same time. If instead you're fighting against yourself, that's resistance. Resistance is persistence.

Thank you, and thank you for the book suggestion, I'll check it out!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
7/24

First, because of my success at understanding how my mind/ego works, I’ve been able to clearly identify that an issue of mine is not strongly believing in myself. So that’s the current mental project I’m working on.

I also want to share how last night went. It was my first night out to seriously sarge in months. My experience was noticeably different from previous nights out.

I felt more relaxed approaching and meeting strangers than ever before. I opened more people during a night out possibly than ever before. I befriended people. I met more women than I can count.

Unfortunately, no results, not even a hook. In nights past, this would trigger my pain body and I’d feel like a real piece of shit for not even coming close to a result.

I’ll be honest, I’m still a little frustrated, but as a sign of improvement, it’s nowhere near as bad. I don’t think my pain body was triggered.

It feels like NOW I’m finally learning game for the first time. I can spot some verbal game things that could be a little better.

Not sure what else to say. Just trying to stay positive and strongly recognize the small wins. This is also an improvement.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
7/29 One of my worst nights ever, but a great inner learning opportunity

Amazing how up and down things can go. After last week’s awesome outing, I went back to the same venue and bombed as bad as I can remember.

I just didn’t have it. Probably because this time I had been up since dawn and went to the venue effectively from work. No time to break, decompress, and mentally prepare.

I didn’t just get blow outs, I got BLOW OUTS. Girls were actually bracing, turning away before I even got a word out.

Toward the end of the night, I finally decided to take a break and meditate to at least figure out why I was in the state it was.

This was very productive. First, because of my recent studying of the importance of being present, I could tell my issue wasn’t this. I was present throughout the night, for the most part.

Thus I realized the culprit was the other thing I’ve been working on - belief: I just flat out wasn’t in a state where I believed in myself.

Further, I realized how ridiculously easy it was for an environment to have a negative effect on me.

My eyes see the women all taking no interest in me. No IOIs. My eyes see the rejections. They see the venue filled with beautiful young women who historically have been so difficult to even get a conversation from. They see venue filled with top tier guys - all of them taller than me, with a very strong, firm presence, and no shred of doubt or anxiety in their body language. It’s so easy to feel like an out of place alien who doesn’t belong in this sea of top tier people.

There’s no new takeaway, just a clear example that a huge issue of mine is belief, and that should be my focus.

The goal needs to be rock solid belief in myself. So solid, that you can toss me in a circumstance like this, and I’ll still feel like a million bucks. So solid, that I’m constantly aware of the great things about me, despite what my eyes (ego) is trying to tell me.


Currently working on the book 6 pillars of self esteem.

If anyone has any exercises for building belief in yourself, please send it over. I can find generalities and conceptual stuff on google, but struggling to find specific exercises to undo 25 years of brain wiring.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,533
7/29 One of my worst nights ever, but a great inner learning opportunity

Amazing how up and down things can go. After last week’s awesome outing, I went back to the same venue and bombed as bad as I can remember.

I just didn’t have it. Probably because this time I had been up since dawn and went to the venue effectively from work. No time to break, decompress, and mentally prepare.

I didn’t just get blow outs, I got BLOW OUTS. Girls were actually bracing, turning away before I even got a word out.

Toward the end of the night, I finally decided to take a break and meditate to at least figure out why I was in the state it was.

This was very productive. First, because of my recent studying of the importance of being present, I could tell my issue wasn’t this. I was present throughout the night, for the most part.

Thus I realized the culprit was the other thing I’ve been working on - belief: I just flat out wasn’t in a state where I believed in myself.

Further, I realized how ridiculously easy it was for an environment to have a negative effect on me.

My eyes see the women all taking no interest in me. No IOIs. My eyes see the rejections. They see the venue filled with beautiful young women who historically have been so difficult to even get a conversation from. They see venue filled with top tier guys - all of them taller than me, with a very strong, firm presence, and no shred of doubt or anxiety in their body language. It’s so easy to feel like an out of place alien who doesn’t belong in this sea of top tier people.

There’s no new takeaway, just a clear example that a huge issue of mine is belief, and that should be my focus.

The goal needs to be rock solid belief in myself. So solid, that you can toss me in a circumstance like this, and I’ll still feel like a million bucks. So solid, that I’m constantly aware of the great things about me, despite what my eyes (ego) is trying to tell me.


Currently working on the book 6 pillars of self esteem.

If anyone has any exercises for building belief in yourself, please send it over. I can find generalities and conceptual stuff on google, but struggling to find specific exercises to undo 25 years of brain wiring.

My friend, I see you are banging your head against the wall trying to break through what you perceive as the barriers created by your lack of self belief.

Belief is an illusion. An illusion that can be shattered by reality at any time. If reality can shatter belief, why focus on belief? Focus on reality, and changing it one small piece at a time.

I have never, ever been able to convince myself of something that reality told me over and over again was not true. I have tried, believe me. Everyone does. The only ones who marginally succeed are either those whose beliefs are close enough to reality that reality sniffs them and moves along to find more substantial opposition, or those who live so far away from reality that they never have to encounter it.

I do not seek to oppose reality with my beliefs. Instead, I seek to perceive what reality actually is. If that means I must risk everything that I am to go and stand before it, just to experience one moment of true clarity before it annihilates me, then so be it. I have done that more than once. Yet I am still here. So will you.

What if you did something a little bit different. Next time you go out and you feel overwhelmed by your insufficiency in the presence of reality, simply say to yourself 'I am nothing, and no one. But if I stand here, let someone come and move me. If I smile, let someone come and rearrange my expression, before I let an ounce of bitterness cross it. If I reach out to someone, let them reject me for what I am, before I reject myself for what I perceive myself to be. And above all, let me see it all happen with true clarity, and accept it with joy, because these are the moments that I have been given under the sun.' Then, go to these people you perceive as having everything sorted, and try to give them the very best of what you are and what you can be, not to get anything in return, but for the satisfaction of living in your own truth.

You will find that the moment you stop loathing reality, the moment you stop running from it, it will stop chasing you down and gnawing at your soul, and will stand and let you look at it, and delight in your unfettered attention. And you will feel coming from your soul the true impulses of a man whose consciousness is not burdened by illusions, or suffocating in the heavy, corrosive armor of belief.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
My friend, I see you are banging your head against the wall trying to break through what you perceive as the barriers created by your lack of self belief.

Belief is an illusion. An illusion that can be shattered by reality at any time. If reality can shatter belief, why focus on belief? Focus on reality, and changing it one small piece at a time.

I have never, ever been able to convince myself of something that reality told me over and over again was not true. I have tried, believe me. Everyone does. The only ones who marginally succeed are either those whose beliefs are close enough to reality that reality sniffs them and moves along to find more substantial opposition, or those who live so far away from reality that they never have to encounter it.

I do not seek to oppose reality with my beliefs. Instead, I seek to perceive what reality actually is. If that means I must risk everything that I am to go and stand before it, just to experience one moment of true clarity before it annihilates me, then so be it. I have done that more than once. Yet I am still here. So will you.

What if you did something a little bit different. Next time you go out and you feel overwhelmed by your insufficiency in the presence of reality, simply say to yourself 'I am nothing, and no one. But if I stand here, let someone come and move me. If I smile, let someone come and rearrange my expression, before I let an ounce of bitterness cross it. If I reach out to someone, let them reject me for what I am, before I reject myself for what I perceive myself to be. And above all, let me see it all happen with true clarity, and accept it with joy, because these are the moments that I have been given under the sun.' Then, go to these people you perceive as having everything sorted, and try to give them the very best of what you are and what you can be, not to get anything in return, but for the satisfaction of living in your own truth.

You will find that the moment you stop loathing reality, the moment you stop running from it, it will stop chasing you down and gnawing at your soul, and will stand and let you look at it, and delight in your unfettered attention. And you will feel coming from your soul the true impulses of a man whose consciousness is not burdened by illusions, or suffocating in the heavy, corrosive armor of belief.
Will, this is exactly what I mean. Maybe it’s semantics, but your recommendations (the words I bolded) sound like a belief to me. Perhaps mindset is a better word?

Last week when I went out, I felt great. I felt like this. I had this mindset. No surprise, everyone I talked to was friendly.

Last night, somehow this mindset fully eluded me. Reflecting, it felt like I was 100% focused externally, or entirely seeking external satisfaction. I lost touch with my inner validation/my inner stillness, or entirely forgot to. This same mindset you describe. Thus everyone I talked to was repulsed.

Maybe my definitions are just off. Belief = Mindset + Remembering it Lol

As for your first four paragraphs, can you perhaps elaborate? Because that seems to go against everything I’ve been studying lately:

What if belief doesn’t have to be an illusion? What if belief could be entirely based on reality?

When I talk about believing in myself, I’m talking about believing in truths, in reality: I have many great traits that make me as worthy and deserving as anyone else. That is objectively true. That is reality.

When I see these beautiful people, and me failing to connect with or attract them, it’s NOT because reality is that I’m a ghoulish, unattractive person unworthy of beautiful women. That’s what my EGO sees. That’s my ego’s interpretation. That’s how my ego perceives the world and attempts to convince me of its certainty.

So when I talk about beliefs, I’m not talking about fighting clear reality. I’m talking about strongly adopting the mindset you mentioned because it EMBRACES reality.

“I do not seek to oppose reality with my beliefs. Instead, I seek to perceive what reality actually is.”
Exactly!

Thoughts?
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,533
Will, this is exactly what I mean. Maybe it’s semantics, but your recommendations (the words I bolded) sound like a belief to me. Perhaps mindset is a better word?

I don't look at it as belief.

Belief is a misunderstood word. The material structure of belief is in fact either a memory of the past, or a vision of the future. It is not (as many self-help teachers try to position it) a declaration of independent truth.

If someone simply says 'I am great', what exactly does it mean to believe or disbelieve it? The only truth to the statement lies in the material reality of the past or the future, which is not dependent on that person's belief in it.

When you try to believe something, and struggle to believe it, it is because of one of two things: either the past condemns it as false, or there is no clear vision of the future in which it is true.

Since neither the past nor the future can be controlled, but only the present, and belief has nothing to do with the present, then belief is something that leads you away from control of reality.

What then is the bread and butter of the present? Action is. Curiosity is. Acceptance is. All of these things open the mind to reality, rather than shuttering it under layers of belief.

Last week when I went out, I felt great. I felt like this. I had this mindset. No surprise, everyone I talked to was friendly.

But which came first, taking action (or deciding to take action) or the positive mindset?

In my experience, belief is an emotion. Sometimes it's there, sometimes it's not. When it's not, if I have come to rely on it, I suffer. Sometimes it goes away even when I am winning. It doesn't seem to be of extraordinary help, so I relegate it to its proper place - well behind action, perception, and experience. Only there, when it can easily be ignored, it tends to more or less behave itself.

Last night, somehow this mindset fully eluded me. Reflecting, it felt like I was 100% focused externally, or entirely seeking external satisfaction. I lost touch with my inner validation/my inner stillness, or entirely forgot to. This same mindset you describe. Thus everyone I talked to was repulsed.

This is true, it's great you have a clear perception of your experience.

The reality of why people were repulsed is because they knew that if they did not supply what you needed, you had nothing left at your core to drive you forward through reality. Thus they were burdened with the need to sustain you, and resented it.

You understand this, so to regain your core, you perceive that you have to regain your belief in yourself. This however is an illusion. You have merely to present yourself and act.

Maybe my definitions are just off. Belief = Mindset + Remembering it Lol

As for your first four paragraphs, can you perhaps elaborate? Because that seems to go against everything I’ve been studying lately:

What if belief doesn’t have to be an illusion? What if belief could be entirely based on reality?

If reality already exists, why is belief even necessary? Belief is an attempt to segment reality into two parts: reality and belief. So that the former can be abandoned, and the latter molded into whatever the ego desires. But in fact all you need is one: reality.

And reality is not an inert structure. It is action and consequence. If I do this, what happens? If I do that, what happens? If someone reacts a certain way when I do this, how about I try that? The possibilities are infinite, and the experience of it is far better than the experience of unstable belief.

When I talk about believing in myself, I’m talking about believing in truths, in reality: I have many great traits that make me as worthy and deserving as anyone else. That is objectively true. That is reality.

I understand what you mean here, but examine the words: worthy, deserving.

What do these mean? Worthy of what? Deserving of what?

If the 'what' is tied to something someone else has or is in control of (let's say a woman's pussy) then you have made your reality subordinate to someone else. They can decide if your belief is to be found true or false. If they determine it to be false, you will suffer terribly.

Instead, why not say 'I deserve nothing. But if I go and try to get it, let reality teach me how'. Then you can experience the joy of suffering and learning without needing to believe anything. And when you are banging her, it will occur to you that it was never proven that you deserved her. 'And yet,' you will say to yourself, 'here I am'.

When I see these beautiful people, and me failing to connect with or attract them, it’s NOT because reality is that I’m a ghoulish, unattractive person unworthy of beautiful women. That’s what my EGO sees. That’s my ego’s interpretation. That’s how my ego perceives the world and attempts to convince me of its certainty.

You are right to say that it is not because you are a bad person. But you would be wrong to say that you need to believe that you are of some indeterminate level of worthiness or deservingness in order to go and meet them.

You have merely to meet them with a clear and open mind, unburdened by belief, and they will perceive that you do not need them to do anything in order to exist as you are, and because they are troubled by their own self-perceptions, and you are not, they will become curious and open toward you.

So when I talk about beliefs, I’m not talking about fighting clear reality. I’m talking about strongly adopting the mindset you mentioned because it EMBRACES reality.

“I do not seek to oppose reality with my beliefs. Instead, I seek to perceive what reality actually is.”
Exactly!

Thoughts?

I will sum up by saying: belief is not important. You can worry about it if you wish, but, like a woman, the more you depend on it, the less loyalty you will get from it.

Instead, like a woman, enjoy it when it comes, and when it goes, don't suffer its absence, but busy yourself instead with perceiving the truth of reality, and acting upon it.
 
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