How hard is it for an average guy to get laid and/or get a girlfriend in this day and age?

[Shake&Bake]

@Shake&Bake OK, let's set expectations straight, first. 1,000 is a ludicrous number.
It can be done but seduction would need to become something you do seriously 24/7... and I mean serious, more serious than your job or anything else.

Many of the grandmasters here have shared that they stop caring once they're between 100-200 because at that point it feels like endless grinding and seduction drops from their priorities.

This actually suggests that you're so out of touch with this subject that you're having unrealistic expectations.

So let's begin from the very start.

1) How old are you?
2) How many girls have you flirted with?
3) How many girls have you dated?
4) How many girls have you kissed?
5) What is the most common obstacle you face? (be specific)
6) Do girls show interest in you and you drop the ball or do they show no interest at all?
7) How do you measure against your male peers in terms of handsomeness and sociability?
8) What things have you tried that didn't work? (again, be specific)

1.24
2.Id say alot. Hard to put in numbers. Hundreds
3. 0
4. 3
5. A number of things. Trying to keep approaching after endless rejections, conversation is a big one like finding out topics to talk about. Getting most girls to be interested in me. Of course game is definitely the hardest to learn. I'm not an attractive guy. So I have to try to compensate in other areas. Also my logistics are messes up because my license got suspended (but being honest it's not like i was getting a bunch of dates or home invitations in the first place). Also just approaching in general just felt hella pointless for a while. Just approaching nonstop for soft nos just got annoying.
6. The latter 98
7.Not high. And I'm not an attractive guy. It seems like alot of guys I'm meeting lately have been successful but me.
8. Tried plenty of different openers that applied to this site. The time restraint opener, the "are you single" (and man I cant believe I wasted time using that obvious stupid one), tried using " you cant sit over there and not speak to me" etc.

Tried using most of the mainstream methods of seduction. I've read almost every big skilled pickup artists advice from Vin Dicarlo, Chase Amante, Josh Pellicer, Skills, Tripp Dating, Wayne Dating, Mystery, Neil Straus, Jesse Charger, hell even Roosh.

Tried getting them to hook so to speak but havent been particularly great at that and have had to change aspects of my game that I found out hinders my success instead of improving it.

Had to stop touching women. And I'm not just referring to Covid. It's just extremely high risk and women dont usually like you touching them unless you are a extremely attractive guy. It usually makes the girl uncomfortable so I just cut that out.

Had to stop approaching girls direct. Never knew how extremely ineffective it really is in the long run. I thought it was better to use than indirect but found out the hard way.

Had to learn stop giving women validation. I try not to compliment women anymore. I learned this from AMS. It's just basically validating a women for existing.

I've got slightly better reactions but that's it

 

[Shake&Bake]

It might approach anxiety for him. It is for me[I can do cold approach but its really hard to get in the mood consistently]. He did have a thread about it, I don't know if he was able to overcome it. Shake, do you still have too much approach anxiety?

Yeah that's one of my big problems. When I was somewhat newer I could do it more consistently. When I didn't approach I used to kick myself thinking I missed a perfect opportunity.

But now its different. Every once in a while I'll pass by a stunner and I wont approach. But I dont feel the regret I used to. I almost feel lots of relief because my mind is telling me why approach this stunner when the odds of me getting her were next to slim. I'm just basically making my dad feel alot worse than I did if it I didn't.

And alot of dating coaches had a way of making you feel like you really missing out by not cold approaching. But it didn't feel like I was

 

[ulrich]

1.24
2.Id say alot. Hard to put in numbers. Hundreds
3. 0
4. 3
5. A number of things. Trying to keep approaching after endless rejections, conversation is a big one like finding out topics to talk about. Getting most girls to be interested in me. Of course game is definitely the hardest to learn. I'm not an attractive guy. So I have to try to compensate in other areas. Also my logistics are messes up because my license got suspended (but being honest it's not like i was getting a bunch of dates or home invitations in the first place). Also just approaching in general just felt hella pointless for a while. Just approaching nonstop for soft nos just got annoying.
6. The latter 98
7.Not high. And I'm not an attractive guy. It seems like alot of guys I'm meeting lately have been successful but me.
8. Tried plenty of different openers that applied to this site. The time restraint opener, the "are you single" (and man I cant believe I wasted time using that obvious stupid one), tried using " you cant sit over there and not speak to me" etc.

Tried using most of the mainstream methods of seduction. I've read almost every big skilled pickup artists advice from Vin Dicarlo, Chase Amante, Josh Pellicer, Skills, Tripp Dating, Wayne Dating, Mystery, Neil Straus, Jesse Charger, hell even Roosh.

Tried getting them to hook so to speak but havent been particularly great at that and have had to change aspects of my game that I found out hinders my success instead of improving it.

Had to stop touching women. And I'm not just referring to Covid. It's just extremely high risk and women dont usually like you touching them unless you are a extremely attractive guy. It usually makes the girl uncomfortable so I just cut that out.

Had to stop approaching girls direct. Never knew how extremely ineffective it really is in the long run. I thought it was better to use than indirect but found out the hard way.

Had to learn stop giving women validation. I try not to compliment women anymore. I learned this from AMS. It's just basically validating a women for existing.

I've got slightly better reactions but that's it

Thanks for that information.
I know it's hard to look at yourself in such a critical way but this is the way to improve.

Alright so from what you told us, it seems that your problem isn't game (what you do), it's fundamentals (how you are perceived).
If you are not getting enough girls or you are not getting the girls you like, that's a game problem. If you are not getting girls at all, it's fundamentals.

Fundamentals open the door and game closes the deal.

Most methods of seduction work but they assume you have already taken care of fundamentals (eg. you're an average decent looking guy).
It realy doesn't matter what you try, until you fix your fundamentals, everything will fall flat or feel extremely random.

Alright, so time to zero in on these things.
How do you rate yourself on the scale of 0-10 (0- terrible, 5- average, 10-excellent) in the following:

Overall confidence
Manliness
Posture
Body language
Voice
Eye contact
Fashion
Sociability
Empathy
Leadership
Hygiene


Also, avoid comparing yourself with other guys.
At 17, 24 and even 50 most guys pretend to be much better than they are. And you will rarely find a guy that got everything going for him women-wise.

 

[Shake&Bake]

Thanks for that information.
I know it's hard to look at yourself in such a critical way but this is the way to improve.

Alright so from what you told us, it seems that your problem isn't game (what you do), it's fundamentals (how you are perceived).
If you are not getting enough girls or you are not getting the girls you like, that's a game problem. If you are not getting girls at all, it's fundamentals.

Fundamentals open the door and game closes the deal.

Most methods of seduction work but they assume you have already taken care of fundamentals (eg. you're an average decent looking guy).
It realy doesn't matter what you try, until you fix your fundamentals, everything will fall flat or feel extremely random.

Alright, so time to zero in on these things.
How do you rate yourself on the scale of 0-10 (0- terrible, 5- average, 10-excellent) in the following:

Overall confidence
Manliness
Posture
Body language
Voice
Eye contact
Fashion
Sociability
Empathy
Leadership
Hygiene


Also, avoid comparing yourself with other guys.
At 17, 24 and even 50 most guys pretend to be much better than they are. And you will rarely find a guy that got everything going for him women-wise.

Trust me I have been trying for a while. Times arent necessarily the best for money. So not have been able to invest in new clothes in a while. But yeah my overall confidence about myself was seemingly from my perspective pretty normal until I start actively approaching. That one just hit me.

I'm been maintaining eye contact alot but most girls dont like to hold it that long so I wonder how well it applies.

And as far as social skills go I'm certainly a long way from where I need to be but certainly not so far out of touch that I cant socialize in social gatherings.

For me....I've always looked at it as women are super picky. So they are not going to invest in any guy unless they find them very intriguing or extremely attractive. So my success with women was only going to be dependent on how good I looked. But I still wanted to have fun now in the meantime. Maybe wishful thinking

 

[ulrich]

For me....I've always looked at it as women are super picky. So they are not going to invest in any guy unless they find them very intriguing or extremely attractive. So my success with women was only going to be dependent on how good I looked. But I still wanted to have fun now in the meantime. Maybe wishful thinking

No. This a limiting mindset.

If you think women are super picky and only go for studs, you’re subconsciously rejecting yourself before even trying.
You’re not even noticing the chances you’re missing or the mistakes you make... you just think “I’m not a stud for her” and stop the analysis.

Again, you’re focusing on the things you DO CONSCIOUSLY (game)... while writing off the things you DO INCONSCIOUSLY (fundamentals and mentality).

Buying new clothes is not necessary to get laid.
Eye contact will lead you nowhere if you’re giving a bad impression.

So, please... qualify yourself from 0-10 in the list above.
We can’t help you if we can’t zero in the fundamental that you’re ignoring.

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW.
Stop trying to fix it from you faulty mental model by yourself and let us help you.

 

[Shake&Bake]

No. This a limiting mindset.

If you think women are super picky and only go for studs, you’re subconsciously rejecting yourself before even trying.
You’re not even noticing the chances you’re missing or the mistakes you make... you just think “I’m not a stud for her” and stop the analysis.

Again, you’re focusing on the things you DO CONSCIOUSLY (game)... while writing off the things you DO INCONSCIOUSLY (fundamentals and mentality).

Buying new clothes is not necessary to get laid.
Eye contact will lead you nowhere if you’re giving a bad impression.

So, please... qualify yourself from 0-10 in the list above.
We can’t help you if we can’t zero in the fundamental that you’re ignoring.

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW.
Stop trying to fix it from you faulty mental model by yourself and let us help you.

No. This a limiting mindset.

If you think women are super picky and only go for studs, you’re subconsciously rejecting yourself before even trying.
You’re not even noticing the chances you’re missing or the mistakes you make... you just think “I’m not a stud for her” and stop the analysis.

Again, you’re focusing on the things you DO CONSCIOUSLY (game)... while writing off the things you DO INCONSCIOUSLY (fundamentals and mentality).

Buying new clothes is not necessary to get laid.
Eye contact will lead you nowhere if you’re giving a bad impression.

So, please... qualify yourself from 0-10 in the list above.
We can’t help you if we can’t zero in the fundamental that you’re ignoring.

YOU DONT KNOW WHAT YOU DONT KNOW.
Stop trying to fix it from you faulty mental model by yourself and let us help you.

But I have been trying for a very long time now. It's not something I've just given up before I even tried. I have been doing it.

 

[ulrich]

@Shake&Bake, I’m not saying you’re not trying.
I’m saying you’re blind to whatever it is that you lack. At the current moment, it is invisible to you.

So, I ask you again to qualify yourself from 0-10 on the fundamentals list I wrote above and let us help you by pointing out your blind spot.

Listen, I don’t enjoy insisting people on letting me help them. It’s tiresome.
If you don’t reply with that information, I will just stop answering this thread... there will be no point for me on insisting again.

 

[Shake&Bake]

@Shake&Bake, I’m not saying you’re not trying.
I’m saying you’re blind to whatever it is that you lack. At the current moment, it is invisible to you.

So, I ask you again to qualify yourself from 0-10 on the fundamentals list I wrote above and let us help you by pointing out your blind spot.

Listen, I don’t enjoy insisting people on letting me help them. It’s tiresome.
If you don’t reply with that information, I will just stop answering this thread... there will be no point for me on insisting again.

I already answered that question above

But I guess you really need the number based system

Overall confidence- 5
Manliness- 3. Depends on what you mean by manliness. I'm not going good as far as money goes. Loss my job not too long ago. Have some money saved up but not going to last
Posture- 7
Body Language- Hard to say. I have a hard time answering this one

Voice-6
Eye contact- 9
Fashion- 2. Dont get me wrong. I know how to dress. I developed a cheap college boy type style that consisted of boots, blueJean's, and guy Garvey shirts. But lately when I go to the store I've been just sticking with the gym shorts. I havent had alot of motivation to approach in a while.
Sociability- I'm going to tie this up social skills. That's likely a 6. It used to be horrible. I still need lots of work. I can hold myself well in social circles but that's never enough

Empathy- Is this action due i have a high empathy for people or women. If I'm being honest it's like a 4 now. If you met me before pickup it was likely a 10

Leadership-2

Hygiene-8

 

[Rain]

Manliness- 3. Depends on what you mean by manliness. I'm not going good as far as money goes. Loss my job not too long ago. Have some money saved up but not going to last

Why only 3 , because of money? You don't need much money for a LTR, even less for just a ONS.
Also, didn't you fight off a guy outside your apartment who was trying to rob you or something? That's quite manly.

 

[Will_V]

Manliness- 3. Depends on what you mean by manliness. I'm not going good as far as money goes. Loss my job not too long ago. Have some money saved up but not going to last

Manliness or masculinity has nothing to do with your bank account. In fact, what is left of a male after you strip away his money and even his freedom has a lot more to do with his manliness. The drive, will, tenacity, the desire to conquer and win against all odds. The 'inner beast' that throws itself against the walls of its cage day after day until they fall down, that thrives in and is energized by adversity.

Of course, manliness encompasses many other things, many of them much more subtle. But it sounds like you're confusing manliness with some social perspective of a successful male, which is not the same thing as a man.

The reason why you will sometimes see hot girls get involved with dudes at the bottom rung of society is precisely because they have manliness, even if they are lacking many other things. This turns women on much more than any boyfriendy 'value' like money.

And you'll also see dudes earning multiple 100's of K per year and can't get laid to save their life.

 

[Beck Bass]

Obviously the answer cant be too easy because that takes alot of appeal out of this site and every average guy you see would have a gf. But not the case from what I seen. So what is it that you think?

Even when my game was dogshit, I still had a few chances of getting a girlfriend, though those girls were "cute" at best (the ones that would approach me, or meet me because friends would set it up). But, most of the time, those were girls that just "wanted a boyfriend", like we barely would meet, and they would be asking me if I wanted to be their bf (like, calm down hoe, I don't even know who you are, there's no way I would take a girl as "girlfriend" without even have ever fucked her, and this is something I felt even when I was a virgin).
Those girls just wanted someone to put on their social media like, "I have a boyfriend, checkmark". I don't even know if I would have sex with those girls if I accepted, but it sure wasn't a good situation to be in, to be on some stupid relationship just for status or something with some random hoe. In fact, those girls would be posting about having a bf on FB or stuff like that like one or two weeks after, so it wasn't like I was special and they were just proposing this stupid arrangement because they we in love (on first sight?) with me, they really just wanted "someone".

So if you're an average guy and just wants "someone", I'm guessing it's not that hard, really.
Of course I'm above average in terms of looks, at least that's what people tell me. If you're ugly, you're probably fucked.
But I can see how average guys can get together with average girls, in this sense.

Of course, having little to no game will show in other problems in relationships.
If you're some average chump, what are the chances your girl will cheat on you with some player? If she's any attractive?
I wouldn't say it's low. But most people won't even know, or bother leaving their gf that came pretty much for free.

So yeah, I wouldn't say people fucking die alone without game, it's just that you're at the mercy of everyone else.
So you're setting yourself for failure, really. On modern urban environments, the amount of sexual competition pretty much obligates men to have game in order to have some sexual success. Of course some guys just develop it naturally, but most won't, and will be forced to search for knowledge somewhere.

In fact, what is left of a male after you strip away his money and even his freedom has a lot more to do with his manliness. The drive, will, tenacity, the desire to conquer and win against all odds. The 'inner beast' that throws itself against the walls of its cage day after day until they fall down, that thrives in and is energized by adversity.

Very true.

 

[Will_V]

Even when my game was dogshit, I still had a few chances of getting a girlfriend, though those girls were "cute" at best (the ones that would approach me, or meet me because friends would set it up). But, most of the time, those were girls that just "wanted a boyfriend", like we barely would meet, and they would be asking me if I wanted to be their bf (like, calm down hoe, I don't even know who you are, there's no way I would take a girl as "girlfriend" without even have ever fucked her, and this is something I felt even when I was a virgin).
Those girls just wanted someone to put on their social media like, "I have a boyfriend, checkmark". I don't even know if I would had sex with those girls if I accepted, but it sure wasn't a good situation to be in, to be on some stupid relationship just for status or something with some random hoe. In fact, those girls would be posting about having a bf on FB or stuff like that like one or two weeks after, so it wasn't like I was special and they were just proposing this stupid arrangement because they we in love (on first sight?) with me, they really just wanted "someone".

So if you're an average guy and just wants "someone", I'm guessing it's not that hard, really.
Of course I'm above average in terms of looks, at least that's what people tell me. If you're ugly, you're probably fucked.
But I can see how average guys can get together with average girls, in this sense.

Of course, having little to no game will show in other problems in relationships.
If you're some average chump, what are the chances your girl will cheat on you with some player? If she's any attractive?
I wouldn't say it's low. But most people won't even know, or bother leaving their gf that came pretty much for free.

So yeah, I wouldn't say people fucking die alone without game, it's just that you're at the mercy of everyone else.
So you're setting yourself for failure, really. On modern urban environments, the amount of sexual competition pretty much obligates men to have game in order to have some sexual success. Of course some guys just develop it naturally, but most won't, and will be forced to search for knowledge somewhere.


Very true.

I've seen a lot of average guys in solid relationships with average girls, like you said, something will come up. If a guy has his shit together and isn't too needy, and can be relied on to do basic stuff like look decent in front of parents, seems he'll usually get something eventually.

I also see a lot these days quite young, average-to-cute (sometimes even hot) girls leading a pretty soft looking 'boyfriend' along by the hand (they have the hand in front). I don't even know what type of relationship is going on but I doubt it has sex involved. Amazes me that guys will let this happen too. A gf tried it once and I just told her simply that I lead because I'm the man.

I have seen ugly/fat guys at times with cute girlfriends, but they usually look like the solid 'cool boss' type who is probably good with people. The only thing I have NEVER seen is a dude with a victim face with any type of girl. Any kind of victim mentality is just like repellent to females.

This is the problem, the way I see it, the moment an ordinary guy stops believing that he can get women, he becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think these average dudes who end up in average relationships are probably optimistic, thinking "it'll happen eventually, I'm a good guy, my sister likes me so I must not be too bad", and the right woman picks up on that in a positive way. But when a guy starts differentiating himself from the 'other' kind of guy who gets women, or starts blaming women for not being more available, that's really a victim mindset, and it will block out success.

@Shake&Bake you must listen to these experienced guys and focus on the details, making incremental improvements to your game and maintaining confidence and happiness in other areas of your life so that women are just a bonus.

 

[Shake&Bake]

Why only 3 , because of money? You don't need much money for a LTR, even less for just a ONS.
Also, didn't you fight off a guy outside your apartment who was trying to rob you or something? That's quite manly.

Ehhh I mean I guess. That was kinda just my own stupidity for getting involved in the first place.

And I know the themes of this site is money dont matter but man it doesn't feel like it. The women are not really willing to go on dates with me because I dont have it like that.

 

[Will_V]

Ehhh I mean I guess. That was kinda just my own stupidity for getting involved in the first place.

And I know the themes of this site is money dont matter but man it doesn't feel like it. The women are not really willing to go on dates with me because I dont have it like that.

How does she know, do you give her your bank account details?

Maybe try dressing in a good shirt, jeans, boots even just go to the shop, iirc you said you would game in your gym shorts, maybe that's the issue.

 

[Shake&Bake]

How does she know, do you give her your bank account details?

Maybe try dressing in a good shirt, jeans, boots even just go to the shop, iirc you said you would game in your gym shorts, maybe that's the issue.

Nah it's not that obviously. But I will meet alot of them who will big mood changes when you tell them you dont have a job, or alot will ask what can you offer me, or if ask for a coffee date instead of a steakhouse date ya know

 

[DonGately]

At 18 I was awful. At 25 I was mediocre. At 30 I was average for a big city [higher standards]. At 36 I started getting more attention because my babyface was less of a handicap. Over 40 I started crushing it, starting seeing this very tall 21y fashion model, then starting banging a very fit, sexy, cute, kinky 19yr old and it was like a dam breaking. You realize they're all very confused, looking for a confident man who leads, they urgently desire sex-without-shaming, hot girls are afraid they have no value other than looks [even the smart ones!] and you can get away with way more than you think.

There's no such thing as an 'overnight success' in...anything, really.

Don't waste time on red light girls.

 

[Will_V]

Nah it's not that obviously. But I will meet alot of them who will big mood changes when you tell them you dont have a job, or alot will ask what can you offer me, or if ask for a coffee date instead of a steakhouse date ya know

Dude. If she is asking you 'what can you offer me' your vibe must be way off. She already sees you as a bad prospect, likely your fundamentals (clothes, voice, facial expressions, body language) is way off.
I have gamed with $500 in the bank, in my one pair of jeans and joggers. Never have I been asked that question. I simply am not there to offer money, I am there to make her feel like a woman and fuck her brains out. You need to seriously look into how to express 'value' to a woman other than money.
For a guy with no assets, as Chase has talked about, frame is key. You have to be absolutely self confident and take no shit from men or women. Tease her, lead her, dominate the interaction, make her feel like a little schoolgirl.
After all, you are a man, and you can become anything you really want to be.
In the meantime, work on developing skills where you can earn money online.

 

[Shake&Bake]

I've seen a lot of average guys in solid relationships with average girls, like you said, something will come up. If a guy has his shit together and isn't too needy, and can be relied on to do basic stuff like look decent in front of parents, seems he'll usually get something eventually.

I also see a lot these days quite young, average-to-cute (sometimes even hot) girls leading a pretty soft looking 'boyfriend' along by the hand (they have the hand in front). I don't even know what type of relationship is going on but I doubt it has sex involved. Amazes me that guys will let this happen too. A gf tried it once and I just told her simply that I lead because I'm the man.

I have seen ugly/fat guys at times with cute girlfriends, but they usually look like the solid 'cool boss' type who is probably good with people. The only thing I have NEVER seen is a dude with a victim face with any type of girl. Any kind of victim mentality is just like repellent to females.

This is the problem, the way I see it, the moment an ordinary guy stops believing that he can get women, he becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I think these average dudes who end up in average relationships are probably optimistic, thinking "it'll happen eventually, I'm a good guy, my sister likes me so I must not be too bad", and the right woman picks up on that in a positive way. But when a guy starts differentiating himself from the 'other' kind of guy who gets women, or starts blaming women for not being more available, that's really a victim mindset, and it will block out success.

@Shake&Bake you must listen to these experienced guys and focus on the details, making incremental improvements to your game and maintaining confidence and happiness in other areas of your life so that women are just a bonus.

Do you have a shortcut to getting some success now? I've been trying for a while now. And I didn't always have this mindset. Even when my fundamentals were on point it wouldn't matter unless I had enough game. There's gotta be something you noticed as an advanced guy that most beginners struggle with.

Dude. If she is asking you 'what can you offer me' your vibe must be way off. She already sees you as a bad prospect, likely your fundamentals (clothes, voice, facial expressions, body language) is way off.
I have gamed with $500 in the bank, in my one pair of jeans and joggers. Never have I been asked that question. I simply am not there to offer money, I am there to make her feel like a woman and fuck her brains out. You need to seriously look into how to express 'value' to a woman other than money.
For a guy with no assets, as Chase has talked about, frame is key. You have to be absolutely self confident and take no shit from men or women. Tease her, lead her, dominate the interaction, make her feel like a little schoolgirl.
After all, you are a man, and you can become anything you really want to be.
In the meantime, work on developing skills where you can earn money online.

And that's where the problem lies. You cant really use yourself as an example. I remember Hector telling me of picking chicks up in regular clothes like tank tops and shorts. But he has excellent game.

I dont have that. I've been trying to get game. Yeah I get offering value but that's what I've been trying to work on.

Give me an example where do you approach women and what do you say to them?

 

[ulrich]

@Shake&Bake, thanks for opening yourself this way and share the numbers you shared above.
This helps us help you tremendously.

The fact that you score yourself low in confidence, manliness and leadership worries me but I don't think that's the source of the problem.

If I had to guess from your posts, I think you're lacking in empathy, meaning you're not good to catch on people's subtle signals.
Like @Will_V says, if she asks you "what do you have to offer?" it is only as a result of you missing indicators of disinterest before and not adjusting.

If I am correct, then this is not a problem you have with women but with men too.

Do you have many different kind of friends or just a thight group of linke minded guys?
Do people often tell you that you "don't get it"?
Do you sometimes say things that unintentionally upset people?
Does it bother you when people don't "give it to you straight"?
Are you studying or did you study a STEM career?
What hobbies do you have?
Normally, do you meet with people outside of school for your hobbies? Sports team, acting classes, etc?

 

[ulrich]

Give me an example where do you approach women and what do you say to them?

What you say it's just one part.
The very essence of seduction is push/pull (in other words, sending mixed signals)... if you focus on just saying the right things, you're doing it wrong.