Low vs High Body Count - What's Ideal? cont.

[Velasco]

Re: "sex itself was being avoided" in the paper... that's more so on my end. I also didn't mention the couple dozen bags of trail mix she's left on my desk... and about a dozen times randomly plating me a homemade lunch

P in V brother. Anything else is mental masterbation

 

[mirror]

It's like being her girlfriend with a dick... She will tell all (or at least "much", if not "all").

Then you can decide if you want to keep her around or not.

Would not work in real life. Friends with benefits usually ends if there is real chemistry involved. And going for someone without having real chemistry involved is not really very appealing. Is it?

It ends because one of the people involved usually catches feelings, which creates a needyness that often (not always) repels the other because you both have not committed yet.

 

[Rakehell]

Would not work in real life. Friends with benefits usually ends if there is real chemistry involved. And going for someone without having real chemistry involved is not really very appealing. Is it?

It ends because one of the people involved usually catches feelings, which creates a needyness that often (not always) repels the other because you both have not committed yet..

Not wanting commitment after that point is generally a guy thing, he will hold out because he’s not that in to her, or just doesn’t want a relationship to begin with.

Most people on this site are not going to be pumped and dumped by women Lol. And if they are it isn’t because they wanted commitment the girl wasnt ready for.

But anyway, during that interim where you are seeing each-other casually, and you give her the sense that there could be a future there, she will begin omitting details as to her sexual history and the kind of person she is.

This is because through her experience and intuition she will know that men value chastity, and find certain things unsavory. So she’ll present what she thinks you’ll approve of.

But if you give her the sense that you won’t judge her for it, like by bringing up wild things you’ve done on your own, or tertiary things “female friends” do, in a nonjudgemental way. Or by not treating her as if you plan on making her your girlfriend.

You can get a better sense of who she actually is unfiltered, and make a better call as to what box she goes in.

 

[Bismarck]

Regarding Teevs' argument that there is a correlation between low body count and mental problems, I think we are conflating two different things here.

Namely, girls can have lots of sex (not be prudes or emotionally repressed or what have you) with a single committed partner. So, a girl can have been fucked by only, say, 3 guys, and have had sex with each of them 365 times throughout their 1-year relationship, before you met her. She still needs intimacy to open up like that.

Differently, another girl can have dozens of different sexual partners and reach no level of emotional intimacy with any of them. This doesn't make our girl B any more mentally healthy than our girl A, imo.

It is true that nowadays women also earn sometimes sizeable incomes due to it being fashionable to appoint them as CEOs and the like to follow DEI guidelines, so that financially perhaps not as much lies in the balance were she to cheat and the marriage to dissolve itself, because she could still provide for the kids after the divorce.

It is still the case, however, that a divorce can be psychologically difficult for the children to bear, as they can feel guilty. And so it would be preferable to marry a woman who wouldn't cheat. Also, in Western divorces, women are still predominantly given the upper hand. In sum, unless you're using it as a piece of pick-up tech to dismantle potential LMR or ASD for a ONS, I don't see how seeking out sexually promiscuous women for stable long-term monogamous marriages and families is beneficial for men.

 

[KJ Francis]

P in V brother. Anything else is mental masterbation

True I would never really know if she would cheat on him unless I escalated. Though it seems incredibly likely she would.

But I do not want to shit where I eat.

Still if I were her husband and could be a fly on a wall in our office I would not be happy. Her behavior would likely be much different if he was fucking her better and was more appreciative of her cooking so she didn't seek validation from me instead.

This is a woman with kids in college. I am just thinking ahead... What happens when you get a little tired of your wife in later years... Now you're stuck with a roommate.

 

[mirror]

Regarding the original question.

I don't think there is an ideal body count. Not for females, not for males. The creativity and loyalty in a person in my eyes is more important. Imagine doing the same script over and over.

 

[Levo]

Body Count in an of itself is a correlation to a poor quality woman, not a causation and I think a lot of guys confuse that.

I'd agree that it is true that the crazy chicks and low self esteem chicks and druggie chicks or whatever are more likely to have a high body count than not, and thats where the judgement and stereotypes come from.

But if we build the case from the ground up I dont see the problem. Tell me where you start to disagree:

Women enjoy sex.
High value and high self esteem women enjoy sex.
They want to have sex.
If she is unable or uninterested in finding a desirable ltr, then she can hook up with people responsibly. (Isnt that what we do on here?)

Depending on how long she stays single this can easily lead to a high body count.

I think the main driving force in keeping a lot of higher value women's counts low is exactly threads like this, where she doesnt want other people's judgement. Not because she herself necessarily sees an issue with it internally.

So unless you want to make some medieval moral or religious argument about why its ok for men to have a lot of sex but not women, or say it ruins them somehow then there shouldnt be an issue with what their body count is, everything else considered.


So anyway having said all that the answer to the OP's question "What is the ideal body count" I'd say that is the wrong question.

The ideal is to find a high value high self esteem woman. Her body count is irrelevant.

 

[mirror]

I think the main driving force in keeping a lot of higher value women's counts low is exactly threads like this, where she doesnt want other people's judgement. Not because she herself necessarily sees an issue with it internally.

Making choices that should be personal differently for someone elses judgement is not my idea of a high value women. So I agree with you on this one, Levo.

 

[Teevster]

Awesome post @Levo .

It is good to see you around. How have you been?

Sad you came late to the party - your insights might have safe many of us from a lot of back n forth.

Body Count in an of itself is a correlation to a poor quality woman, not a causation and I think a lot of guys confuse that.

I'd agree that it is true that the crazy chicks and low self esteem chicks and druggie chicks or whatever are more likely to have a high body count than not, and thats where the judgement and stereotypes come from.

But if we build the case from the ground up I dont see the problem. Tell me where you start to disagree:

Women enjoy sex.
High value and high self esteem women enjoy sex.
They want to have sex.
If she is unable or uninterested in finding a desirable ltr, then she can hook up with people responsibly. (Isnt that what we do on here?)

Depending on how long she stays single this can easily lead to a high body count.

Exactly!

I think the main driving force in keeping a lot of higher value women's counts low is exactly threads like this, where she doesnt want other people's judgement. Not because she herself necessarily sees an issue with it internally.

So unless you want to make some medieval moral or religious argument about why its ok for men to have a lot of sex but not women, or say it ruins them somehow then there shouldnt be an issue with what their body count is, everything else considered.


So anyway having said all that the answer to the OP's question "What is the ideal body count" I'd say that is the wrong question.

The ideal is to find a high value high self esteem woman. Her body count is irrelevant.

Amen.


-Teevster (TVA_Oslo)

 

[Velasco]

Tell me where you start to disagree:

Ok. Here:

If she is unable or uninterested in finding a desirable ltr, then she can hook up with people responsibly. (Isnt that what we do on here?)

Depending on how long she stays single this can easily lead to a high body count.

This is where impulse control comes into play.

A girl with strong impulse control can wait. She doesn’t need to hook up with a bunch a randoms people. In the meantime. She has the ability to wait until she finds the guy she wants.

A girl with low impulse control is the opposite. And how she ends up with such a high body count.

which again was my whole point about low body count in my original comment. About how low body count is generally a good sign of someone with strong impulse control.

I don’t want this to be nitpicked again. So I’ll repeat myself again that it was never my argument that having a low body count, by itself, guarantees a girl is high quality.

 

[Levo]

Ok. Here:

This is where impulse control comes into play.

A girl with strong impulse control can wait. She doesn’t need to hook up with a bunch a randoms people. In the meantime. She has the ability to wait until she finds the guy she wants.

A girl with low impulse control is the opposite. And how she ends up with such a high body count.

which again was my whole point about low body count in my original comment. About how low body count is generally a good sign of someone with strong impulse control.

I don’t want this to be nitpicked again. So I’ll repeat myself again that it was never my argument that having a low body count, by itself, guarantees a girl is high quality.

I don't understand your point about how having sex with someone is related to your impulse control. That would presume that having sex with someone is bad.

I'd say something like having a high count nights where you have pizza and ice cream for dinner is a sign of poor impulse control, because there's a measurable negative effect on your health by doing so.

But I've failed to see any evidence of how engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity that both parties consent to is a sign of low impulse control. For it to be that then there would have to be a negative associated with having sex with a new partner.

It would be like you telling me I have poor impulse control because I like to go paragliding multiple times a week. Because I COULD only enjoy it once a month! Like, why do you care? I don't know where you get the idea of what a healthy woman "needs" to do or why she should wait for a LTR.

Like I said before, the only real "negative" that I can find is judgement from other people.

 

[S.S Can]

But I've failed to see any evidence of how engaging in a mutually pleasurable activity that both parties consent to is a sign of low impulse control. For it to be that then there would have to be a negative associated with having sex with a new partner.

More sexual partners is linked to lower self-esteem, higher rates of chronic illness, substance abuse, psychological distress, higher risk of infidelity.

Women with higher degrees of sociosexuality are more likely to engage in emotional and physical infidelity.

Women with higher partner counts are less satisfied with their relationships.

It's easy to claim that these factors are a result of other confounding variables, but it is a fact that for every additional body, the risk of infidelity increases by 13%. I'd much rather stay away from potential red flags if I was to vet for a woman that I was going to spend my entire LIFE with.

Obviously talking about sexual freedom with women is a useful tool in a seduction, but it's important that we don't confuse these precepts with reality.

If you want an enduring, stable relationship with a woman, then it is good to find a woman with a lower body count. In any case, I appreciate the focus on this site in becoming a lover, someone to whom these distinctions matter less.

 

[Skills]

Again these arguments will go in circles... A lot of guys project assumptions in limited relationships experience no necessarily lack of experience or low lay count... But limited experience in the context of many different women all different types...

At the end of the day the vetting periods of getting to know her catching her doing dishonest things or lack of character or personality traits are more important... Specially deep dives on the different experiences she had with different types of dudes...

I have been with church girls low lay count that lack impulse control and girls with higher lay counts that are loyal...

Guys in the forum tend to project current situation and main they are with into idealistic models...

One day the have a main with 2 lay cont 18... Best relationship in the world everyone not dating an 18 year old with 2 lay count doesn't know what they are doing and need to have that...

Then we have the other expectrum every one that has not a poly wife mid 30s, is an idiot at doesn't know what they are doing
..

The 2 guy may even be the same exact dude different points in life...

At the end of day this discussion are retarded tbh ..

Both relationship with end at the end of the day both will...

My personal risk control based on relationships since 17 is history of cheating but not even that solid with gen z... They are virgins pr very low relationship experience anyway
.. in that car any signs of dishonesty would be a red flag no freaking lay count os retarded
.

 

[Velasco]

That would presume that having sex with someone is bad

Strawman

A girl not wanting to have sex with a bunch of RANDOMS. Not SOMEONE. Does not mean she think having sex is bad. Otherwise she would not have sex with anyone.

there would have to be a negative associated with having sex with a new partner

Not a new partner. Multiple new partners. Again and again and again and again.

It would be like you telling me I have poor impulse control because I like to go paragliding multiple times a week. Because I COULD only enjoy it once a month!

No it would not be like your poor analogy. Because the “it” we are talking about is in engaging in sex with new partners multiple times a week. Not sex itself. When she does find someone she wants to have sex with, she’ll do so. Multiples times a week. Not have sex with this person only once a month because she has strong impulse control.

why do you care? I don't know where you get the idea of what a healthy woman "needs" to do or why she should wait for a LTR

Why do I care if she has a history of impulsively sleeping with a lot of random men before she met me? Gee I don’t know maybe because when that urge comes again (however many years or months into the relationship) she won’t be able to control herself and only do what she’s always done and give in to her impulses?

 

[mirror]

It's easy to claim that these factors are a result of other confounding variables, but it is a fact that for every additional body, the risk of infidelity increases by 13%. I'd much rather stay away from potential red flags if I was to vet for a woman that I was going to spend my entire LIFE with.

Again, correlation vs causation.

I know women that have a very high body count and NEVER cheated and have been together for years.

I also know women with very low body counts that did cheat or divorced etc.

Don't think you can presume things from personal choices.

Did you also read up on short term mating strategies vs long term?

What you want from a "normal" "vanilla" LTR is someone that goes into a long term mating strategy, and stays in it;
That normally happens rather easily.

 

[S.S Can]

Again, correlation vs causation.

I know women that have a very high body count and NEVER cheated and have been together for years.

I also know women with very low body counts that did cheat or divorced etc.

Don't think you can presume things from personal choices.

Did you also read up on short term mating strategies vs long term?

What you want from a "normal" "vanilla" LTR is someone that goes into a long term mating strategy, and stays in it;
That normally happens rather easily.

I explicitly said that I understand that there might be confounding variables that are causing this, and that I would prefer to stay away from potential red flags.

There are also strippers with hearts of gold. What we're talking about is just probabilistic. You can look to go meet a millionaire in the slums of your city, and I'm sure there are some. Or you can go to a high-end venue where they are more likely to hang out.

Anecdotal evidence is fine and all, but we have statistics that look at the population wholesale and are able to direct our efforts.

MAYBE the problem with your future wife isn't that she has slept with 100 men, and you'll get married and live happily ever after. The statistics don't support that conclusion.

 

[mirror]

MAYBE the problem with your future wife isn't that she has slept with 100 men, and you'll get married and live happily ever after. The statistics don't support that conclusion.

Actually; they do.
Statistics dont support conclusions; they just can tell you about the likelihood.

"Maybe"

 

[Teevster]

So I guess those of us with great results in pick-up and seduction have bad character due to poor self-control? If we reflect the argument back onto ourselves, that seems to be the implication.

Not only is this hypocritical - It’s also in my opinion factually shaky. I honestly struggle to see any real correlation between a high body count and poor self-control. When it comes to us men, most experienced PUAs (that is, men with a relatively high body count) tend to be the most composed and in control. The ones who get needy are usually not less experienced seducers.

Ok, but maybe it's different with women?

Well, unless someone has experienced otherwise, the women who tend to get clingy and needy usually have a low body count. Of course, there are also sex-addicted, histrionic women with high body counts who show no self-control.

The point is, I’m not even sure a low body count is a reliable sign of good self-control - nor is a high body count necessarily a sign of the opposite.

At the end of the day, I think @Levo is right: this is ultimately a moral argument in disguise, or a subjective cultural preference dressed up as “fact.”

-Teevster

 

[topcat]

sex with new partners multiple times a week.

Do you know how rare this is?

Your average “high body count” girl is usually fucking something like 4/5 new dudes in a year.. IF she’s not got a good fb or bf to occupy her.

 

[Teevster]

More sexual partners is linked to lower self-esteem, higher rates of chronic illness, substance abuse, psychological distress, higher risk of infidelity.

Women with higher degrees of sociosexuality are more likely to engage in emotional and physical infidelity.

Women with higher partner counts are less satisfied with their relationships.

It's easy to claim that these factors are a result of other confounding variables, but it is a fact that for every additional body, the risk of infidelity increases by 13%. I'd much rather stay away from potential red flags if I was to vet for a woman that I was going to spend my entire LIFE with.

Obviously talking about sexual freedom with women is a useful tool in a seduction, but it's important that we don't confuse these precepts with reality.

If you want an enduring, stable relationship with a woman, then it is good to find a woman with a lower body count. In any case, I appreciate the focus on this site in becoming a lover, someone to whom these distinctions matter less.

I think that if you choose a woman with little sexual experience out of fear that she might cheat, you’re starting from a pretty bad place. That kind of reasoning is a bit controlling. I'm not going to launch into the open-relationship sermon here - I'll assume the goal is a long-term, monogamous relationship.

But if you're opting for a low body-count woman because you think she won’t cheat—because she doesn’t know what else is out there, or because she’s been shamed into avoiding sexual closeness - you’re entering the relationship on pretty unfavorable terms.

In my opinion, a woman should stay faithful because she genuinely digs you - because she sees you as the best, and every other man pales in comparison. It should come from real respect, real desire, and real passion.

Compare that to a woman who’s only staying faithful because:
a) she feels she’s not allowed to cheat, or
b) she simply doesn’t know any better.

Which of those settings do you think leads to a more authentic - and frankly, better - relationship? The one who stays faithful out of desire, passion, heck even love, or the one who does not cheat because it is "forbidden"+

Sure, I understand that loyalty and the absence of cheating are important. They help build intimacy and reinforce the "you and me have something special" frame. But at what cost? Let’s not forget that the overall quality of the relationship matters too.

Women are faithful to me because they want to be - because they’re into me. And it goes both ways: if I’m going to be monogamous with a woman, it’s because I genuinely want to, not because I feel ashamed or controlled into it. I expect the same from her.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

That said - leaving personal preferences aside - extremely low body-count women sometimes go on a full-on “dick rampage” once their bubble bursts and they realize what else is out there. We've all seen it happen. So choosing a low body-count woman, especially in a city full of temptation, can be risky - especially if faithfulness is your top priority.

-Teevster