- Jul 24, 2022
Rest assured that you’re doing great!
You’re definitely correct in your intuition that maybe there’s some pieces still building in your overall conversational skills, which is totally normal.
That's really not even a direct/indirect thing - it’s that you’re just a bit inconsistent through your beginning transition phases right now (again, totally normal!) and there are lots of variables that play into this.
It’s a common thought that indirect can lack proper sexualization, and of course it can… but that’s not an indictment on direct/indirect but rather the individual context.
The thing is that with strong verbals and conversational routing abilities - regardless of the labels attached to their game style - seducers will have far more effective sexual frames with strong verbal game rather than with approaches that start out by totally handing away social frame from the start (such as with the popular “Neo-direct” beliefs that some claim like horrible, horrible ratios on… which is not what we’re trying to work towards here.)
And by verbals, I don’t just mean “NLP” which is another common misconception - those techs are only one component that may or may not be used. When stepping back, the focus is more towards meeting smooth with the utility of the verbals and non-verbals alike to build up each component of the 3 Keys from approach to post-lay. Such as in other disciplines, it's working on understanding the "why" that really unlocks the power behind these concepts.
Speaking of social frame, that’s also a reason why you’re not getting responses on your numbers. Social frame is not only a massive key for the approach but also crucially important to number closing/texting. This is because when you’re not there in front of her, the social frame is very delicate as she’s working with her recollection of you and what you put into text. Ask yourself, “How is she going to remember me?” and be aware of the contexts of the approach and its most appropriate sprezzatura.
Are you 1. giving her a quality enough of an interaction to make her intrigued after the approach + maintaining the social frame and 2. NOT giving her a reason to disqualify you on a social frame level? That would mean things such as being uncalibrated/negatively knee-jerk both in person + over text.
Basically, that means giving her a high-quality interaction overall, the meaning of which is heavily variable based on the context of the approach.
Note again how you’re approaching and getting into a routine for that, but you’re not always breaking into that next, immersive phase before number closing.
See the difference in feel with your approach with the Japanese girl, which was a good start into immersion and SOTs, and some of the other approaches? And she responded, right? Her response about it being hard to find time with her shifts could actually have been legitimate and/or was in response to nature of the text which went straight into scheduling (you'll see people around the forum such as Skills using the phrase "hard-closing" for that)… when maybe she could have needed something else before the scheduling.
On that note, you can experiment with different texting styles as you build up your approaching skills, too. One nice method is to recall a high point over text as you build up her compliance to respond over text. Intrigue baiting about those high points and/or things you noticed about her/her way of thinking are great ways to do that as you build up the tension into the close, just like in person a la SMMA.
Additionally, why not post some transcripts of your texting? That would help for self-analyzation and troubleshooting - members like Skills and fog historically have made key efforts to troubleshoot texting transcripts if members make the effort for example (haven't been around much myself lately).
Now, and this is a key thing here, I also recommend you focus on extending your interactions by not only opening/closing or just breaking into that immersion phase but also deeper into it. This builds on the transition phase discussion from before.
What I’m talking about here is instadating or generally having longer interactions where you’re persisting + isolating/moving her to different places. Being familiar with the area and having locations in the bag where you can seamlessly extend interactions (for example, pretending like you're on your way walking towards X interesting place - a beautiful park, cafe, whatever - and persisting for her to come along once you've built some compliance) can be vital.
Instadating can sound intimidating to some, but I think it’s well within your reach and pushing the interactions further are going to build your skills + increase the quality of your interactions, giving you better odds if you have to number close (but preferably, stay in-set and keep working as long as calibration allows). That doesn't even mean necessarily spending money either - more so towards creating impactful experiences in her world whether that's moving her to the bench for a deep convo or whatever your mind creates.
Something important to mention here is that you don’t necessarily have to exchange numbers at the end. Rather, something that may lead to good results for you is to number close following a high point BUT continue gaming her afterwards, whether that’s all the way into an insta-date/SDL or for a little while to build better social frames.
A useful technique that plays into this is making sure that you’re verbalizing unique perceptions of her perspectives/the way she moves through the world - showing that you understand her at a profound level and giving her those butterflies in her stomach of finally feeling understood… now that’s building social frame that will last! And to me, that starts building up a much stronger sentiment of “why you’re talking to her” than the traditional view of SOIs and starts getting into advanced discussions of fantasy/narrative game (but that's not something for you to worry about right now).
Additionally something that comes to mind - your fundamentals do play into your initial social frame and into the puzzle. With good fundamentals, you’re helping yourself and mitigating the chance she has a negative knee-jerk upon approach. At a basic level you want to make sure you're just not at an extreme end of the spectrum to make her snap judge you from the jump.
And of course beyond that there are refinements such as posture, tonality, not dressing in any way that’s really negatively polarizing, things like being in solid shape, making sure hygiene is in check, etc - those kind of basic things. Now, it’s super important that those are things to be working on bit-by bit- while you’re also working in-field and improving yourself across many different areas. Stressing again that fundamentals are things to keep refining while you’re still working in-field!
What limits some guys is the thinking like, “I’ll get ripped and THEN I’ll approach!” No no no, that’s totally not it and is often cope/avoidance. Because of the basic sexual makeup of women as Gunwitch explains in SMMA and realities you’ll see for yourself, fundamentals are but one component of seduction and how we drive female states through influence (i.e. seduction vs hookup/pure chance) so that's just something to be mindful of.
So yeah, as you intuited there’s not just one thing at work here. To sum up, here are some points + resources to explore (linked some of these before):
Should provide some good stuff to chew on as you iterate, grow in-field, and naturalize tons.
- Transition Phases
- Improving consistency beyond the opening and overall strength of the interaction, extending interactions further with eyes towards immersing/isolating/instadating/etc
- Persisting with calibration
- If calibratedly not able to extend interaction, field test texting methods having also experimented with different points of grabbing her contact info
- Overall Verbal Skills - driving her state through immersion
- SOTs, elicitation, making it about HER, pacing & leading
- Overall Seduction Mechanics - saying and doing things efficaciously to build 3 keys
Keep working, learning from both experience and the many resources on SS/GC, and the progress you’re looking for will come in time!
Whoa, there is a lot of stuff here! I appreciate the comprehensive write-up. I'm going to have to digest things here over time and respond over time. My key takeaways from a daygame perspective is:
-I need to hit the gym harder, control my diet well, and get into leaner shape. I think theres definitely some "knee-jerk" reaction I'm setting off, especially with girls that are 8+ from the way I look (not dress, but from my body fat). I'm going to make it a goal to look significantly better with less body fat in 2 months.
-I need to improve my verbal game. Aside from just "talking normally" (which is comfort/rapport) right now, I am inconsistent in immersing who I'm talking to. There is a difference between just not being weird, and leaving a charming impression that makes someone want to meet up. Techniques to continue working here include pacing and leading, SOTs. And applying the reality pace opener from @Bacchus to walking targets (still difficult to me).
-I may need to tweak my text game after getting their number. Instead of just straight pitching the date every time afterwards. I also suspect there might be some incongruency between the indirect approach and how I jump into directly pitching the date.
-Practice pushing the interaction as far as I can get it. I will skip getting the number and instead try to get the girl on an instant date. I have never tried this, but I agree that it makes sense to try moving things in this direction.
Regarding your comment on it being more effective to not go direct. To be clear, I'm NOT doing the whole "I know this is really random, but you're cute and I had to come say hi." My direct approaches involve a specific compliment on something they are wearing, and I try to make an inference from it. I'm not sure if this still falls under direct, or not.
I was hosting an event with some close friends and had about an hour to kill before hands, so I go out and try to make the most out of this 1 hour.
I walk to the lake and find a girl sitting a bench. I let her see me looking out into the lake, and then I walk towards the bench into order to sit down next to her. She opens me with "Nice weather, huh?" I respond with the RPO about the amazing view, blue ocean, and how its a rare moment we are able to share. We then talk a bit, and at some point I tell her I moved to the area recently. She asks me why. Instead of answering directly, I answer by asking her whether she has ever gotten into a situation where she feels like she had gotten bored of the same old things, and needed a change of pace [ambiguous answer]. I can see her getting more intrigued by this answer, and she continues to ask me more questions. Not sure who posted this tactic but I think I saw it in one of @Bacchus or @Teevster's articles.
At some point she asks me what I do, and again, instead of answering directly, I ask her to guess. She guesses I worked in fashion. I laugh and tell her no way. (But I take this as a compliment on my style).
After a while, we talk about travel, about food, but at some point her mom comes. She enthusiastically introduces me to her mom by saying, "Look mom, I met this guy!" I introduce myself to her mom as well.
The mom actually looks at the daughter and asks "Am I interrupting you guys? I can go walk for longer and leave you guys here."
Anyways after a while they tell me they have to leave. I do not ask her to get coffee. In retrospective, I could've easily pivoted from our previous discuss about food and adventure easily into an invite to get something sometime. But I was thrown off by the mom, so it was a bit strange.
I walk back from the lake and see a cute girl walking in the same direction. I walk in front of her and let her see me walking for 5 seconds as per @Bacchus's article on meeting smooth, and then open by looking behind me. "Isn't it such a great day today... its such a rare occurence especially as we now enter the winter months." We talk a bit, I tell her I love travelling and exploring, and ask her if she does as well. Talk a bit about what we're doing. I ask her why she decided to go to the lake. She tells me she wants a break from everything. I tell her that I was busy planning for a close friends event for the last 3 hours and came for the same reason. She asks me where I live, I point to the building next to us. I then tell her I'd like to grab coffee with her sometime. And get her number.
Comment on her unique purse which looked like a birdcage. Walked for about 2-3 minutes. Didn't feel like we had a good conversation or connection though, so did not ask for number.
Was picking out some alchohol, and saw her lining up. Opened with "Long line, huh?" Talk a bit while in the line. After a while, my friend shows up, so I am not able to end the interaction.
I'm starting to really be able to integrate daygame approaches into what I'm doing naturally doing in life. It's interesting to see it from this lens.
Feeling extremely low momentum going out today after hosting an event the previous day. I still force myself to go out for consistency sake. Forced myself to at least walk around and approach for 1 hour. I head into a bookstore after finishing some errands.
Got the hook, but could not transition topic out of the topic of gifts and books into something deeper.
Opened with a question, she has headphones in and does not hear me.
Opened with a reality pace, "So many options to choose from..." and looking over my shoulder at her. She engages and says yeah. I see she's holding many books and asking whether they are for herself or others. She says they are for herself as she's looking to continue learning. She then asks me what I was up to. We talk a bit, and eventually I find out she was Japanese. I then talk about the same SOT topics about freedom, culture, travel, and starting a new life I did with the previous Japanese girl. Instead of answering her answers directly on why I moved and what I do, I answer with vague, ambiguous answers focused more on the emotions. So about getting out of a routine of doing the same thing, and changing things up by taking a step outside your comfort zone. She is extremely engaged during the whole conversation, and she is constantly makes me guess things about herself as well as make cold reads about me. After a while, I ask her whether she thinks I'm an introvert or extravert. She tells me she thinks I'm the same as her, in that I can be extraverted for a while before needing to retreat into alone time and reading books, because she can feel it from my vibe. (This is the first time i've heard a girl say this to me). In the middle of the interaction, she tells me I am her new friend. I wonder if this is what happens when a woman feels understood by you, because if so, I'm starting to feel pacing is going to be extremely powerful and important in daytime cold approach because it has the dual benefit of building rapport/comfort (key in daygame) as well as attraction through being "understood" by a stranger. Without doing dancing monkey stuff. I then tell her I want to get coffee with her sometime. She says ok, and I ask if she has whatsapp or instagram. She says instagram. I tell her I can add her on instagram, but I don't really use it. She says I can add her on whatsapp. Instead of going for the close, I stop, and start telling her a story.
I tell her in a previous life, I was posting things all the time on instagram and eventually I felt like I wasn't living life anymore, I got too addicted to capturing the 1% moments, even though life was right there in front of me. She lit up and says she totally understands what I mean. I then validate her by saying, "I'm glad to hear that." I then get her number, and we talk a bit afterwards as per suggestions.
Didn't get much chance to sexualize/touch in the interaction, besides using lingering touch in the handshake when introducing each other. In retrospective, I should've given her a hug at the end. (I think it would've been socially fine)
We were both sitting on a bench at a subway station. I opened her by asking her about her drink, and then showed her my drink which was a bit different. I then left it.
I re-engaged a few minutes later by asking her whether she was going on a new adventure or coming back from one. She says she takes this station often, and she says she had an exam at <COLLEGE X> nearby. I ask her whether she feels like her weekend was ruined by the fact she had to prepare for the exam. She tells me "No, not really." I say, "I see." I ask her what the exam was on and what she studied. She tells me, and I tell her I also studied the same thing. She says "Ok". Then I tell her I live 5 minutes away, and how the station was very confusing and I had to help my friend who was visiting me. She says "Ok, theres many different spots here", and talks a bit about it. I say, "True, I will just wait for him to send me a picture with a smirk." Still no hook besides just answering my questions on the surface.
I stop talking and wait 3-4 minutes, then re-engage again for the 3rd time using a reality pace "So you're just completely comfortable with this station, like its your living room" She says "Yeah." I then try to make an assumption, "Is it boring, or is it like meditative for you?" She says, "Its chill." Again, she does not ask me any questions or give me any more to work with. So its like 7-9 minutes in, and she has still not asked me a single question about myself. At this point I give up as she's clearly not reaching the hook point. So I just disengage by telling her my friend was here and I had to go.