Old Dog Can't Learn New Tricks?

metalbird

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
110
I get it. Game is all about social calibration. How to express interest, but not too much, and at the right times. How to be low-investment, low-emotional state, but not miss escalation windows. How to approach, initiate, and lead, without chasing, simping, or looking desperate. As @Warped Mindless said, "You don't need to be perfect" ... but you do have to make everything look easy/effortless (sprezzatura).

Am I the only one who just can't seem to make any progress with learning this stuff anymore? I've been trying to "get good" with women for almost a decade now. A lot of this stuff seemed to work in my early twenties, but the past five years have been a long decline into zero results. It all seems so elaborate and mysterious to me now.

I'll be honest, Alek's recent article criticizing neo-direct game hit hard with me. That was pretty much my style, and yes, it did work back then. I've always had success with women by keeping thing simple and judgement-free. The one advantage I've always had was low agreeableness -- not giving a F*** about social norms. Of the 40+ women I've banged, exactly three were NOT same-day or first date lays, and all three of those girls turned into LTRs. When guys were complaining about how to get first date sex, I was complaining that I couldn't figure out how to get a second date out of girl -- a lot of good ones got away when I couldn't convert on the first.

Sure, I can still get laid with 4s and 5s through online dating.
Sure, every once in a while I'll meet and bang a 8 or a 9 -- like once a year when I'm on vacation or something.

But I haven't actually dated a girl I was really interested since I was 25. Hell, at this point, I'm starting to think I want kids... I can actually afford them now... but I can't get a MF date with a girl I'd actually want to reproduce with.

I still put so much effort into this. I spend a lot more time and money than I'd like to admit going out, trying day game, night game, street game, anything. Social game has never really been an option for me, since I've moved across the country about every 16 months, I've never built up a strong social circle anywhere.

I'm about to the point of throwing in the towel here guys. I guess the game has changed, and I just can't adapt. The only responses I get from girls now are "I'm flattered, but I can't" (Why not?) or "I'm too young/you're too old/how old are you" etc. (From girls that are ~22, and I know 7-9 years is nothing for many guys in this community.)

Do I really look that old? I swear my fundamentals are better now than ever, especially when I was <25. Hell, back then, I didn't even go to the gym, I was overweight. I just had a fast convertible and and a big ego, and girls wanted to bang. Now, it's like, I've got money, I'm in great shape, full head of hair, dress sharp -- but girls are "flattered, but they can't" go out with me....

In the 100 or so approaches I've done in the past six months, I've gotten
- One number that turned into a first date ONS
- One number that turned into two "friend dates" (girl had a bf). I missed the escalation window on the second because we were out with a group, and was enjoying myself too much
- ~10 numbers that have all gone nowhere/turned into flakes.

This is not counting online dating, but still, online dating is boring, and the girls I can meet from there are never 'top shelf.'

There's been a lot of talk on this forum lately of the "game is dead" argument -- no, game is not dead. I have younger guy friends that I see killing it all the time. But when I try my brain just... fails. I just default back into being hyper direct and sexual. And girls just don't respond to that anymore.

At this point, I'm willing to try a nuclear option. I'm all out of ideas, and with the other areas of my life largely sorted out, finally solving the "girl problem" has become the top priority in my life. But I'm not interested in reading "find yourself" books or "5 general principles of seductions". If there are sophisticated techniques that still get reliable, concrete results from women these days, I need to figure out someway to learn them. And that means some way to track progress too.

Thanks for the long read, and I look forward to hearing your suggestions.

- metalbird
 

uriel

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Messages
795
I’ve found that the biggest variable you can control that screen quality in girls is location.

What is your preferred type of woman? (the one you would be most happy to date)
What are your usual pick up locations?

My guess is that there could be a mismatch there.
 

metalbird

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
110
Uriel,

It's not that I can't find "quality" women, it's just that I can never seem to get anywhere with them. If I try to go for insta-dates, quick escalations, or pull, I get harsh/humiliating rejections. If I try to play it cool and get a number, or set something up down the road... I never hear from them again, or they flake as soon as I try to set something up.

Put simply, I just get zero compliance, ever.
 

metalbird

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
110
Where?

During the day -- coffee shops, boutique shops, book stores, out and about, normal stuff
At night -- bars, clubs, lounges
I go a lot of different places, I don't stick to just one or two types

What do they say?

Stuff like "ew, gross", "I'm not attracted to you at all, I'm leaving", "uh, no..." (disgusted face), "typical man, at least you're honest" etc

Look I don't really wanna describe all my harsh rejections, it makes me sound like a creep. But that's only when I try to move really fast. And it's not like I'm walking up to women in the supermarket and asking if they wanna fuck. I'm talking about girls in bars or sit down places, after several minutes of conversation, deep diving, flirting, and them giving me attraction signals.

And like I said, I've only resorted to trying to move fast like that because getting numbers/giving invites literally never goes anywhere (like 1% success rate or less)
 

Rain

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 13, 2016
Messages
465
Are you in your mid 40s? I think there are examples of other posters here who do well in their mid 40s.
 

Will_V

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
543
Stuff like "ew, gross", "I'm not attracted to you at all, I'm leaving", "uh, no..." (disgusted face), "typical man, at least you're honest" etc

If they are saying that after giving honest attraction signals, they obviously perceive something you do as very uncalibrated to the point where they have to get very defensive and revise everything they thought about you (or at least present that way). Even if you try to pull immediately she has to have rock solid plausible deniability.

I have a feeling that the problem here is that your vibe has changed but your game has not. So whereas before you were a rebel who doesn't give a F and just bulldozed through, now you give a F (and you dress/present as someone who gives a F) but you're acting as if you're still the rebel because you have no other game plan. So perhaps she is seeing you as weird because you're a well presented guy acting like someone he no longer really is. And women have a hound's nose for things that are not congruent.

I would suggest learning a slightly more indirect game from scratch. You're an experienced guy, now you want quality but you're not here to waste time. Focusing on optimizing everything leading to a first date. For example, how does she react when you seed a date after the deep diving/conversation you described? What sort of ways of suggesting the date gets good reactions? How can you transition from that to an icebreaker text that gets a response? How can you then move from icebreaker to setting up the date?

And think about what kind of woman you really want right now, and learn how to speak directly to her.
 

Derek da man

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Jan 24, 2020
Messages
160
I'm 51 and my game style is somewhat different to most of the younger guys, it's more relaxed, slower and more focused on her. I don't go out to chase women, they just happen to come across my path and I take the opportunity to open them, screen them and go from there. I probably screen every girl I meet to some degree but it's very subtle. This tells her I'm showing interest but I'm not being pushy or forward. She can then handle my interest as she feels appropriate, either screening herself out or passing my test. It's fairly subtle.

Please take my comments as intended to be "helpful" and not "hurtful"

Your writing style is quite forward, fast, in-your face and direct. Nothing wrong with that as I like people like that as it's leads to fun fast interesting conversations. It also feels a bit "desperate" although that is probably from frustration which I can well related to at times.

When dealing with women try being way less direct, forward is good but with a lot of subtlety. As I've gotten older I'm much more chilled about things which allows me to ask questions and listen to her, I'm no longer trying to sell myself or prove I have value. I know I have and that comes across in my quiet confidence.
If they are saying that after giving honest attraction signals, they obviously perceive something you do as very uncalibrated to the point where they have to get very defensive and revise everything they thought about you (or at least present that way).
I agree - as an example: I rarely ask "Are you single?", my go to is "Where's your boyfriend/partner tonight?". This doesn't illicit a short "Single/not single" response, I get a much longer answer which tells me about her and her partner and usually will also give a feeling of how committed she is to a partner/bf if she has one. Alternatively it will tell me about the lack of one and I will smile leaving the pressure on her which forces her to tell me more about why she doesn't have one which in turn gives me an insight into what buttons to press or where to show a little value. If you like she gives me a test to see if I can meet her needs. All very subtle but lots of things being communicated.

Another mistake I used to make was that I "over-dressed" which resulted in her seeing me as "high-value" and above what she thought she could achieve so she would reject me as a possibility before I even asked. By all means dress well but again, keep it a little more subtle. A nice branded shirt, nice jacket, nice shoes but dial down the flashy accessories so a simple watch, a plain belt. Everything makes a statement but it needs to be subtle not "BANG".

I guess my comments are not that dissimilar to @Will_V above and his advice about being incongruent is the underlying issue. Hopefully my examples provide a practical perspective.

Sure, I can still get laid with 4s and 5s through online dating.
I have to say on-line dating is pretty dire at present, I think so many people are on there that it's hard to stand out. Even with decent photos and a good bio there are so many men on there that girls just can't give your profile more than about 3 seconds before deciding to move on. I don't even bother with this now.
 

West_Indian_Archie

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
238
I can't get a MF date with a girl I'd actually want to reproduce with.

I see a ton of approach issues and seduction misconceptions in the rest of your post, but this goal of yours is difficult regardless of skill level.

Emphasis on reproduce with, because that's a very high bar for men that have had experience with a lot of women. If you didn't have this much experience in getting girls into bed, then you'd "settle" for a nice girl that gave you sex and have kids with her. But because you've got all the notches - you know you can get a more attractive women with better sex BUT....once you add on the truckload of things that make a girl into "mother of your children" - your style of pick up leaves you stuck.

You screen, you don't convert.

Your whole abrasive style, no accommodations for the female is fine, I guess, you just need to increase the volume. Some 9+ is dying to meet you and have your kids, but you just gotta through 100 or so to find that one.

So if you don't want to change your mindset, behaviors, and approach - the practical problem is really about volume. Since you're eschewing building a social circle, all you really have left is

1) Moving to place with a high volume of suitable targets - and running your in your face game.
2) Real World Fame (which may be possible without having a true offline social circle)

If that seems like too much work, it's much easier than actually changing who you are as a person and what you want.

WIA
 

ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
5,692
You screen, you don't convert.

Your whole abrasive style, no accommodations for the female is fine, I guess, you just need to increase the volume. Some 9+ is dying to meet you and have your kids, but you just gotta through 100 or so to find that one.

Second this.

I recommend to go to Asia, where Asian females bullshit about not going after foreign men but they actually do because Asian men are meek and kinda lame.

You can reproduce a whole football team with substitutes if you like ;)

z@c+
 

metalbird

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Sep 20, 2015
Messages
110
Are you in your mid 40s? I think there are examples of other posters here who do well in their mid 40s.
I'm 30

And think about what kind of woman you really want right now, and learn how to speak directly to her.
This is an interesting line of thought. For the record, I don't consider myself that experienced. My track record isn't that impressive given my age and how long I've been aware of seduction principles.

Your writing style is quite forward, fast, in-your face and direct. Nothing wrong with that as I like people like that as it's leads to fun fast interesting conversations. It also feels a bit "desperate" although that is probably from frustration which I can well related to at times.
You're spot on, I know social calibration is not my strong suit. It's kind of related to frustration, but I'm not a bully at heart. I just have a very low tolerance for BS -- anything that beats around the bush, smokescreens, shit tests, etc. I know for a fact I fail shit tests and I fail them hard. In fact, shit test probably evolved to screen out guys like me. A lot of seduction feels like BS to me. Why do I have to pretend like I care about a random girls feelings, or her childhood, or what kind of music she likes? Why do I need set up date doing some activity I don't really care to do, or act aloof to disguise my interest? Why do I need to deal with her "friends" (who are probably just jealous anyway) or her "social hangups"? (Social hangups are not a thing I understand well.) As I've gotten older my tolerance BS has just gone down. It makes me more and more effective in the male world, and less effective in the female world.

That's a good line for an older guy, more authoritative but less direct.
It's also a perfect example of what feels disingenuous to me. In truth I don't care who she's with or who she came with.

I'm not trying to defend my way of thinking. 1) It's not working and 2) I don't subscribe to the belief that authenticity is paramount
I'm trying to figure how to become comfortable with "faking it". I know "how" to BS my way in to women's pants, the way 99% of guys do (not just seducers, they just BS differently). It just causes me so much cognitive dissonance because unlike most guys, I'm aware of how much I'm BSing. It's that internal disconnect that throws women off when I try to go that route.

I see a ton of approach issues and seduction misconceptions in the rest of your post, but this goal of yours is difficult regardless of skill level.
It is the end goal, but I'm not pretending like I'm throwing away babes left and right because they're not worthy of breeding. I'm still trying to get relative abundance in the middle ground area.
 

sab

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 5, 2021
Messages
39
That's a good line for an older guy, more authoritative but less direct.
For me, I never ask about their relationship status ever. I do daygame. I try to assume seduction and go from there. I assume if she is engaged, that means some interest on her part. I let them volunteer their status which sometimes comes up in the course of the interaction. I try to press forward until I get an outright rejection or some resistance in the form of LMR/ASD. I guess it depends on the person. Experiment with what works for you.
 

Will_V

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
543
For me, I never ask about their relationship status ever. I do daygame. I try to assume seduction and go from there. I assume if she is engaged, that means some interest on her part. I let them volunteer their status which sometimes comes up in the course of the interaction. I try to press forward until I get an outright rejection or some resistance in the form of LMR/ASD. I guess it depends on the person. Experiment with what works for you.
Good point, and I don't either, but it seems like something an older guy can get away with more easily. And I think the way Derek explained the difference sums up how an older guy can leverage what makes him different.
 

uriel

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Oct 21, 2019
Messages
795
You're spot on, I know social calibration is not my strong suit. It's kind of related to frustration, but I'm not a bully at heart. I just have a very low tolerance for BS -- anything that beats around the bush, smokescreens, shit tests, etc. I know for a fact I fail shit tests and I fail them hard. In fact, shit test probably evolved to screen out guys like me. A lot of seduction feels like BS to me. Why do I have to pretend like I care about a random girls feelings, or her childhood, or what kind of music she likes? Why do I need set up date doing some activity I don't really care to do, or act aloof to disguise my interest? Why do I need to deal with her "friends" (who are probably just jealous anyway) or her "social hangups"? (Social hangups are not a thing I understand well.) As I've gotten older my tolerance BS has just gone down. It makes me more and more effective in the male world, and less effective in the female world.
I'm not trying to defend my way of thinking. 1) It's not working and 2) I don't subscribe to the belief that authenticity is paramount
I'm trying to figure how to become comfortable with "faking it". I know "how" to BS my way in to women's pants, the way 99% of guys do (not just seducers, they just BS differently). It just causes me so much cognitive dissonance because unlike most guys, I'm aware of how much I'm BSing. It's that internal disconnect that throws women off when I try to go that route.
And now, we are hitting the root of the problem. Your concept of what seduction is and how women work are deeply flawed.

Seduction is not BS.
Seduction is understanding what women want and need, then work to lead them to intimacy.

The reason why you’re struggling is because you are treating women as if they were men and expect them to follow suit.
You’re basically showing them you don’t understand nor care to understand their needs to test you. Then you try to rush a sexual dynamic which is uncalibrated and get surprised as how low rate it works.

No, my friend.

This is not about bullshiting better, it’s about understanding women and giving them what they want/need.
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Location
South Florida
 

ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
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There's a saying that if it ain't manifesting yet, you can ask for more and/or clear your vibration.

You in a good position in your life.

What do you want? Do you want kids or do you want to see little kids who look like you, running around the house?

Or actually, you like teaching cause you see yourself as missing that opportunity to get the experience of an adult who is there and a bonus is a benovelent adult who is self aware.

This are hard questions. Get back to us when you feel you know where you connect all the dots.

z@c+
 

ph40

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Sep 6, 2021
Messages
102
Where?

During the day -- coffee shops, boutique shops, book stores, out and about, normal stuff
At night -- bars, clubs, lounges
I go a lot of different places, I don't stick to just one or two types

What do they say?

Stuff like "ew, gross", "I'm not attracted to you at all, I'm leaving", "uh, no..." (disgusted face), "typical man, at least you're honest" etc

Look I don't really wanna describe all my harsh rejections, it makes me sound like a creep. But that's only when I try to move really fast. And it's not like I'm walking up to women in the supermarket and asking if they wanna fuck. I'm talking about girls in bars or sit down places, after several minutes of conversation, deep diving, flirting, and them giving me attraction signals.

And like I said, I've only resorted to trying to move fast like that because getting numbers/giving invites literally never goes anywhere (like 1% success rate or less)

What city are you trying this in? It might depend on the particular city, too, because if you're trying to game in NYC, for example, and you just look like the average middle-aged suburban guy, it's not going to work, whereas you can get away with being average elsewhere.
 

DonGately

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
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Mar 16, 2020
Messages
134
I've never asked a girl her dating/relationship status.

Found out this one 19y was MF engaged after we'd been banging for a month! My jaw hit the floor.

edit - I don't chase married women.
 

ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Messages
5,692
Found out this one 19y was MF engaged after we'd been banging for a month! My jaw hit the floor.

edit - I don't chase married women.

I don't judge you and I am trying to merge this.

I think it's good that everyone should be more cautious with what the other person is saying. All Men bullshit because we all chasing after pussy, But to be more of a neutral standpoint.

And to mentioned, I didn't even know that my female friend was getting married in 3 months. I didn't even know her boyfriend exist because she said he didn't exist when really they were arguing.

And there's a lot more

z@c+
 
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