Should you accept women's counter-offers

Darius

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Hello gents,

Back with another thread, another conversation that went awry, and another question. This time from tinder.

Matched a girl, we had a good conversation with good rapport. Asked to meet for a coffee and asked for her number. She refused to give me her number, and proposed insta because "she doesn't give her number online like that". I figured she wasn't attracted enough, flirted a bit more, then gave her a parting shot of "well I'm not on insta and you don't want to give me your number, so nothing more we can do".

30 mins later she sends me her number and says "okay I'm quitting this app it annoys me lol and worst case i'll just block your number".

Fair enough, that was funny. I text her, we have an hour long texting convo, and she was VERY invested. She was asking lots of questions, lots of emojis, responding instantly.

SO I figure what the hell she seems hooked and ready, I'll just invite her over instead of on a date. I ask her to come to my place for a coffee sometime. No answer.

Okay, I figured she just went to bed. I was busy and texted her a few days later. Vibe was back where we left it! Seems like we really hit it off.

Then I ask her when she's free, and she tells me she's free Monday and Wednesday. So here's where I mess up:

Me: cool ! so Monday at 6PM at my place, we have a coffee and maybe order something to eat. then plan the reception *laughing emoji* (we were joking about her wedding and how I'd help her plan it)

* no answer *

Me: oh well, seems like we don't get along that well in the end, we tried twice now *smile emoji*
Me: if you want to grab that coffee sometimes let me know

Her: Bah we can see each other but not at your place what lol outside ahah

Me: well i was saying because all the good coffee shops close at 6
Me: and i have parking in my courtyard, way easier than looking for one in the center
Me: you are one suspicious girl *laughing emoji*

Her: You're still happy I'm suspicious lol

Me: of course, worrying you is my main objective *laughing emoji*

Her: lol super

Me: no but i get you HB *smile emoji* it can be scary meeting someone. i was joking because i know i'm nice lol, there is nothing to worry about
Me: you like art? i can show you some of my drawings, i like to sketch :)

* no answer, texting her on next day on Sunday *

Me: oh well i suppose not, hope you'll find someone to your taste. i guess i'll do something with my friends tmr *shrug emoji*

Her: Well I told you not at your place so yeah. Have a nice evening with your friends :)

I kind of got myself in a clench there by asking her to come directly to my place. But after 2 hours of texting it really felt appropriate. I didn't want to misread her and have that escalation window close up.

I feel like accepting her proposition is not the right answer, it would more or less mean conceding to her frame. At the same time, she won't budge on it, so to move things forward I need to reframe it somehow.

Which begs the question:

What do you do if you propose something to a girl (e.g. you ask for her number, you ask her to come home with you) and she does not accept but counter-proposes something less than what you wanted (e.g. her insta, you going on a date) and she won't budge on it? Rather, how to accept it without losing frame?

Any tips welcome. Thanks!
 
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ZacAdam

Cro-Magnon Man
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you ask her to come home with you) and she does not accept but counter-proposes something less than what you wanted (e.g. her insta, you going on a date) and she won't budge on

Rule of thumb: if she likes you, she will be more specific with her instructions. Even if the female is someone that is hard headed. :)

Your case, you can bring it outright and tease her that you know she's friendzoning you. Keep repeating the same vibe and see her reaction.

If she cracks, she is interested enough.
If she doesn't, flip her over and put her in the trash can. Put some colored donuts inside and cover the lid.

She will survive. :)

z@c+
 

Regal Tiger

Cro-Magnon Man
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When you match a girl you should be setting up the date on the 5th message. I've experimented with this a lot and earlier is kinda hit or miss, but then if you go longer than that you take the risk of getting lost. On the 5th message exchange (which means you have already sent her 4 and she's sent you 4) seems to be the sweet spot (quick note: double messages still only count as one exchange).

Never go for the number with online. Too many guys do that and you don't have to. The number should come naturally after the date setup.


In addition, asking her to come over without meeting her has it's own problems that I won't get into. It can work sometimes... but... well... it's better to go for the date (and if you don't think she's attractive enough for a simple first date at a coffee shop or something then you probably shouldn't be talking to her in the first place because you'll probably hurt her and then thaaaaaaat has its own issues that I've experienced, not fun).


Anywhoo, here is my basic text-to-date structure that you're more than free to copy:

1) Your opener that's easy to respond to. It can include a question, but usually something fun works best
--> her response

2) If applicable, answer any questions she has in as few words as possible (women will talk just to talk, but we have a mission: to get her out on a date) and then either tease her or ask her what she has going on during the week (depends on the girl if you want to ask the question first or tease first, kinda one of those things that you just have to go with your gut). But remember, light flirty teases that both of you can laugh at, works best if it goes off of something she's said (like in her bio or responses)
--> her response

3) answer any question she may have asked and then go for either the tease or, if you didn't already, ask her what she has going on that week
--> her response

4) answer any question she may have asked you (seeing a pattern here? you don't want to come off like a robot and ignore anything, and yes, there is a reason that I put this here lol). Then ask her if she likes blank
--> blank can be anything, a walk in the park, coffee, whatever. I always prefer smoothies myself
----> her response

5) answer any question she may have asked you. Then propose your date:
Well you seem cool, we should do blank sometime soon. When are you free?


AFTER SETTING UP THE DATE (which means date/time): Cool, well this app can be weird sometimes, what's your number or just send her your number instead

Then try to end the conversation. Make some shit up if you have to. Oh I have to walk my dog. My mom is calling me. Whatever. End the conversation. The longer you talk the more mystery you steal from yourself and the bigger you chances of turning her off. You literally gain nothing and risk everything by keeping her on the phone longer than you need to. The only time I'd veer off course here is if she's extremely timid and needs a phone call. It's fine to give those types of gals a connecting phone call (but it has to be an actual phone call, NEVER through text) for like 10 minutes or so. That's just so she can feel a little more comfort with you that'll never happen through text.



Depending on how far into the future you set up the date: if it's the next day, then you wait until the day of the date to text anything. I personally like to text like 3-4 hours before the date with what I'll be wearing. If she responds then you know she will be there. If she doesn't ever respond then she probably will flake on you. I've only been wrong like twice out of the hundreds of times of doing this.

If the date is two days away, then text her the day of the date. Same thing as above.


If the date is 3 days away then text her either the next day or the day before with something, anything. I prefer memes. DO NOT GET INTO A FULL BLOWN CONVERSATION. You're just trying to remind her that she is on your mind and that you won't ghost her or forget about her.


If the date is 3+ days out then try to text her every other day, same thing as above. If the date is a week+ then... she's not going to show up. I think I've had barely a handful of women show up if the date is scheduled that far out in advance. Honestly, if the date is even 5 days out then your chances of getting her out drop tremendously. The sweet spot is before day number 4 really. So either that day, or no longer than 3 days out.

If she tries to hit you with that I'm busy bullshit then try to fight her on it (but like, in a smooth way, don't go full retard here). You just want to remind her about some of the great connections she's probably missed out on because life gets in the way and be like I'm sure you have an hour somewhere. Because again, if she's interested then she will make time. And if you allow her to play the game on her turf then everybody loses.


Going Back to The Title of The Thread
You should never accept a counter proposal from a woman. Because then you're dating on her terms. And women aren't trying to make something happen a vast majority of the time (exceptions exist, obviously). That's our job. Don't let her take our job because she's going to fuck it up

Chase recommends finding out why she doesn't like your date idea (maybe she's allergic to coffee or something), and then countering her counter offer with something she does enjoy.

So something like this:

Me: Let's do this smoothie shop I know of, blank is amazing.

Her: I don't really like blank, let's do *other smoothie shop instead*

Me: That place is alright, but I prefer blank instead because I get treated better at it. We can do *her suggestion* next time


If she wants to fight it then you have a decision to make. Honestly, I just assume she's not interested and cancel the date. I don't want to fight women over stupid shit and it's probably not the best thing to do, but when it does happen I just kinda lose interest in them. That's more of a me thing (and even if she's not all that interested she'll probably still accept your idea anyways, most women don't want to fight about this kinda petty shit either).


But, if she doesn't like smoothies you can try something like this:

Me: Let's do this smoothie shop I know of, blank is amazing.

Her: I would prefer going to X coffee shop instead.

Me: Oh? Do you not like smoothies?

Her: Not really

Me: No worries, then let's do Z Coffee shop then, it's pretty good


This way, we're still switching things up but we're still the one in control and leading.
 
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Skills

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Hello gents,

Back with another thread, another conversation that went awry, and another question. This time from it started on tinder.

Matched a girl, we had a good conversation with good rapport. Asked to meet for a coffee and asked for her number. She refused to give me her number, and proposed insta because "she doesn't give her number online like that". I figured she wasn't attracted enough, flirted a bit more, then gave her a parting shot of "well I'm not on insta and you don't want to give me your number, so nothing more we can do".

30 mins later she sends me her number and says "okay I'm quitting this app it annoys me lol and worst case i'll just block your number".

Fair enough, that was funny. I text her, we have an hour long texting convo, and she was VERY invested. She was asking lots of questions, lots of emojis, responding instantly.

SO I figure what the hell she seems hooked and ready, I'll just invite her over instead of on a date. I ask her to come to my place for a coffee sometime. No answer.

Okay, I figured she just went to bed. I was busy and texted her a few days later. Vibe was back where we left it! Seems like we really hit it off.

Then I ask her when she's free, and she tells me she's free Monday and Wednesday. So here's where I mess up:



I kind of got myself in a clench there by asking her to come directly to my place. But after 2 hours of texting it really felt appropriate. I didn't want to misread her and have that escalation window close up.

I feel like accepting her proposition is not the right answer, it would more or less mean conceding to her frame. At the same time, she won't budge on it, so to move things forward I need to reframe it somehow.

Which begs the question:

What do you do if you propose something to a girl (e.g. you ask for her number, you ask her to come home with you) and she does not accept but counter-proposes something less than what you wanted (e.g. her insta, you going on a date) and she won't budge on it? Rather, how to accept it without losing frame?

Any tips welcome. Thanks!

You address the objection, in a way the makes her feel comfortable, soft close again then hard close.... "i understand, let meet at ______ coffee place close to your house/or bar close to your house........ If she wants your insta. "i recently stop using dating apps i had too many stalkers and time sink, are you in wasap or telegram? forget about "losing frame" that does not apply here, think about the issue, she is not comfortable coming to your house, she wants to know a bit about you that is why she is asking for insta.... Address her issues and problems and close, forget silly frame crap....
 

Darius

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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great pieces of advice, thank you guys. Looks like my instinct was right, I need to address the issue but also not really listen to her counter offers. Some interesting ways to do that here.

You address the objection, in a way the makes her feel comfortable, soft close again then hard close.... "i understand, let meet at ______ coffee place close to your house/or bar close to your house........ If she wants your insta. "i recently stop using dating apps i had too many stalkers and time sink, are you in wasap or telegram?

stupid question: whats the difference between hard closing and soft closing? The examples you gave there I would normally think of as hard closes but I'm really not good with old PUA terminology

Edit: also thanks @Regal Tiger for the detailed Tinder process man! i'll definitely take a page from your book and experiment with it
 

Skills

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great pieces of advice, thank you guys. Looks like my instinct was right, I need to address the issue but also not really listen to her counter offers. Some interesting ways to do that here.



stupid question: whats the difference between hard closing and soft closing? The examples you gave there I would normally think of as hard closes but I'm really not good with old PUA terminology

Edit: also thanks @Regal Tiger for the detailed Tinder process man! i'll definitely take a page from your book and experiment with it


a soft close is an indirect statement to gauge reaction prior to going for logistics best to be done at high point of text interaction....

"we should have a quick meet and greet to see if the vibe is there, maybe a coffee or a drink", if she does not bite, don't go for hard close...

a hard close is logistics to set up the meet...

"What does your schedule looks like?"

^ many guys don't gauge the temperature going for hard closes early, kills momentum in the interaction...


^ none of this matters if not a strong first interaction...
 

DonGately

Cro-Magnon Man
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I think it's fine if you ask a girl to meet Sat at 4pm and she replies busy, let's meet Sun at 5pm to accept 'her offer' as long as it actually works for you. It would seem perverse and foolish to me to turn that offer down.

I will say if I'm offering a dinner spot [obviously to someone I've hung out with a few times before] and she doesn't like it I'm *not* accepting her counter unless I also love that place.
 

happynanako

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Why would she want to meet you are your house on a first date?
I think she's being cautious esp towards online dates.

I think you were pretty cool at the start were you felt that she ain't worth the effort. You start to lose it when you start compromising to her. Moreover, you don't even know her enough to compromise to her.
 

Darius

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i've had 4 girls come to my place directly for a coffee off of Tinder. 2 were lays, 2 got ASD because I failed to build rapport (my old ways were quite rough).

I don't see the issue with asking her to come directly to mine, if the connection and attraction is there. Sure she might get ASD but on the flip side she's already at my place, having sex is easy. With this girl i had a 2 hour conversation over text, I definitely thought she was ready.

I agree it gets tricky when you start compromising for her, doing so without appearing weak seems like an art :)
 

ElderPrice

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Another angle I haven't seen specifically mentioned yet:

Even if you texted '100% correctly' and 'kept the frame,' this might not have been a feasible girl anyway.

Three things stand out to me. First, why are you two texting for two hours? If you had two hours to text, why didn't you have 30 minutes to meet and talk in person?

Second, I see in your text exchange that you're putting in all the work, she's giving short answers, and sometimes she's not even responding.

Third, she tried to connect on IG rather than swap numbers.

Together, these tell me that there's a good chance this girl may have been more interested in chatting than anything else.

There will always be a percentage of girls that will be bored, make a profile, chat/play around in the app for a couple hours, then delete their profile.

So, you may have had zero chance with this girl from the get-go, even if you ran 100% perfect text game.
 

Gaturro

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Sorry for not answering earlier.

It is ok for me to accept counter-offers IF I’m ok with the counter-offers.

It doesn’t mean she doesn’t want to have sex with you, maybe she wants to go somewhere else to feel safe, and you can take advantage of it to lower ASD (in most cases if you don’t accept you’ll just lose the lay because you didn’t let everything flow)

This is a LR about this from last week, with a Tinder girl I left on seen for 1-2 months.

I pinged her on Saturday night (I was too tired to go out but in the mood for texting). I qualified her about being extroverted and good for what I do (internet videos) and told her she could come to my place next time I make one to see if she likes it. She sent a voice message saying “I don’t know about your place but we could go to a bar first and get to know each other”

me: i would go now but all bars are closed
girl: yeah, and tomorrow it’s the elections
me: i have jager at home, though
me: and absolut
me: but if you don’t wanna come we can drink it in the car
girl (voice msg): it’s not that i don’t want to, but my mom won’t let me, plus it’s the elections tomorrow
me: hah but you’re 21, tell your mom to be cool
me: about the elections I agree with you, but we aren’t doing so good voting sober, so we might as well vote drunk for once and see what happens
girl (voice msg): what about tomorrow? it’s not that i don’t want to do something now, but it’s raining
me: yeah tomorrow’s gonna be sunny
me: i’ll tell you after voting, because i’m voting 30 min away from here

So after voting i texted her, we went to a mexican restaurant, then went for a walk (that’s when I kisses her) and then went to my car. I started driving to my place and she asked: “are we going to your place?” i just said “yes, i really want you to try jagermeister, it’s delicious”

At home: no LMR at all. and one of the best lays of my life

So yeah, if I were you I’d accept counter offers lol
 

Skills

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i've had 4 girls come to my place directly for a coffee off of Tinder. 2 were lays, 2 got ASD because I failed to build rapport (my old ways were quite rough).

I don't see the issue with asking her to come directly to mine, if the connection and attraction is there. Sure she might get ASD but on the flip side she's already at my place, having sex is easy. With this girl i had a 2 hour conversation over text, I definitely thought she was ready.

I agree it gets tricky when you start compromising for her, doing so without appearing weak seems like an art :)

same i had girls coming straight to my house, or me going straight to their house and bang.... But not all women are comfortable doing this, if she is not comfortable doing this, you meet them at a bar or coffee shop near your place and then to your house, think couple of steps ahead and big picture and we, vs silly frame battles...
 

RedNeck

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Sorry to hijacker the thread , but @Skills in general when a woman has a legitimate objections , do you handle them by comforting her , ..etc ? I always felt this more like qualifying .
“Ex : I can’t give your phone number because you are a customer. “
Would you go on and comfort her by saying you would keep it a secret … etc .
 

Skills

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Sorry to hijacker the thread , but @Skills in general when a woman has a legitimate objections , do you handle them by comforting her , ..etc ? I always felt this more like qualifying .
“Ex : I can’t give your phone number because you are a customer. “
Would you go on and comfort her by saying you would keep it a secret … etc .

Again it depends on the situation, as i always preach you never want to get to a situation were you got a deal with objections in the first place and i also teach you the proper way to get a number so you don't have to face that objection.... But based on your sample you are dealing with some type of higher gun that gets paid to be nice to customers, and customers confuse that with "interest", i am telling you this cause i dated multiple bar tenders, waiters, strippers, hostess and that is common in those industries......

"if she tells you i can't give you my number cause you are a customer" something prior to this you fucked up and she is maybe towards red or a red... and is pretty much damage control, she is just rejecting you nicely...

her: i don't give my number to customer

me: i don't usually take numbers from waiters or _______ "whatever she is", but i decided to take a chance this time, cause you seem like a cool girl worth getting to know, hand her the phone, put your number there, i don't kiss and tell... But again long shot at this point you are in damage control...
 

Darius

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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When you match a girl you should be setting up the date on the 5th message. I've experimented with this a lot and earlier is kinda hit or miss, but then if you go longer than that you take the risk of getting lost. On the 5th message exchange (which means you have already sent her 4 and she's sent you 4) seems to be the sweet spot (quick note: double messages still only count as one exchange).

Never go for the number with online. Too many guys do that and you don't have to. The number should come naturally after the date setup.


In addition, asking her to come over without meeting her has it's own problems that I won't get into. It can work sometimes... but... well... it's better to go for the date (and if you don't think she's attractive enough for a simple first date at a coffee shop or something then you probably shouldn't be talking to her in the first place because you'll probably hurt her and then thaaaaaaat has its own issues that I've experienced, not fun).


Anywhoo, here is my basic text-to-date structure that you're more than free to copy:

1) Your opener that's easy to respond to. It can include a question, but usually something fun works best
--> her response

2) If applicable, answer any questions she has in as few words as possible (women will talk just to talk, but we have a mission: to get her out on a date) and then either tease her or ask her what she has going on during the week (depends on the girl if you want to ask the question first or tease first, kinda one of those things that you just have to go with your gut). But remember, light flirty teases that both of you can laugh at, works best if it goes off of something she's said (like in her bio or responses)
--> her response

3) answer any question she may have asked and then go for either the tease or, if you didn't already, ask her what she has going on that week
--> her response

4) answer any question she may have asked you (seeing a pattern here? you don't want to come off like a robot and ignore anything, and yes, there is a reason that I put this here lol). Then ask her if she likes blank
--> blank can be anything, a walk in the park, coffee, whatever. I always prefer smoothies myself
----> her response

5) answer any question she may have asked you. Then propose your date:
Well you seem cool, we should do blank sometime soon. When are you free?


AFTER SETTING UP THE DATE (which means date/time): Cool, well this app can be weird sometimes, what's your number or just send her your number instead

Then try to end the conversation. Make some shit up if you have to. Oh I have to walk my dog. My mom is calling me. Whatever. End the conversation. The longer you talk the more mystery you steal from yourself and the bigger you chances of turning her off. You literally gain nothing and risk everything by keeping her on the phone longer than you need to. The only time I'd veer off course here is if she's extremely timid and needs a phone call. It's fine to give those types of gals a connecting phone call (but it has to be an actual phone call, NEVER through text) for like 10 minutes or so. That's just so she can feel a little more comfort with you that'll never happen through text.



Depending on how far into the future you set up the date: if it's the next day, then you wait until the day of the date to text anything. I personally like to text like 3-4 hours before the date with what I'll be wearing. If she responds then you know she will be there. If she doesn't ever respond then she probably will flake on you. I've only been wrong like twice out of the hundreds of times of doing this.

If the date is two days away, then text her the day of the date. Same thing as above.


If the date is 3 days away then text her either the next day or the day before with something, anything. I prefer memes. DO NOT GET INTO A FULL BLOWN CONVERSATION. You're just trying to remind her that she is on your mind and that you won't ghost her or forget about her.


If the date is 3+ days out then try to text her every other day, same thing as above. If the date is a week+ then... she's not going to show up. I think I've had barely a handful of women show up if the date is scheduled that far out in advance. Honestly, if the date is even 5 days out then your chances of getting her out drop tremendously. The sweet spot is before day number 4 really. So either that day, or no longer than 3 days out.

If she tries to hit you with that I'm busy bullshit then try to fight her on it (but like, in a smooth way, don't go full retard here). You just want to remind her about some of the great connections she's probably missed out on because life gets in the way and be like I'm sure you have an hour somewhere. Because again, if she's interested then she will make time. And if you allow her to play the game on her turf then everybody loses.


Going Back to The Title of The Thread
You should never accept a counter proposal from a woman. Because then you're dating on her terms. And women aren't trying to make something happen a vast majority of the time (exceptions exist, obviously). That's our job. Don't let her take our job because she's going to fuck it up

Chase recommends finding out why she doesn't like your date idea (maybe she's allergic to coffee or something), and then countering her counter offer with something she does enjoy.

So something like this:

Me: Let's do this smoothie shop I know of, blank is amazing.

Her: I don't really like blank, let's do *other smoothie shop instead*

Me: That place is alright, but I prefer blank instead because I get treated better at it. We can do *her suggestion* next time


If she wants to fight it then you have a decision to make. Honestly, I just assume she's not interested and cancel the date. I don't want to fight women over stupid shit and it's probably not the best thing to do, but when it does happen I just kinda lose interest in them. That's more of a me thing (and even if she's not all that interested she'll probably still accept your idea anyways, most women don't want to fight about this kinda petty shit either).


But, if she doesn't like smoothies you can try something like this:

Me: Let's do this smoothie shop I know of, blank is amazing.

Her: I would prefer going to X coffee shop instead.

Me: Oh? Do you not like smoothies?

Her: Not really

Me: No worries, then let's do Z Coffee shop then, it's pretty good


This way, we're still switching things up but we're still the one in control and leading.
necroposting a bit but this Tinder process is 100% legit and works like a charm. Thanks a lot @Regal Tiger
 
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