Text conversation after first date

[Vision]

Yeah I just talk about whatever, no structure. I prefer just being in the moment and not trying to plan out certain topics, its more fun to me. Im sure I could lead the conversation to a specific direction if I needed to or tried to.

I know some people that that works for... most people I know who do it, it doesn't work for them consistently... which is why they come to places like this forum... or get bitter and jaded about women not liking them for who they are... or both.

Amplify or reframe it onto her? Can you explain or maybe link an article or something to what you're talking about? Haha

Amplify

Her: We're not having sex tonight...

You: I'm a virgin. Wait, are you talking about our body parts touching? You're that girl my grandma always warned me about, aren't you? I'll bet you'll have me chained to the bed in handcuffs. Should I be worried about you?

Reframe

Her: We're not having sex tonight...

You: Wait, are you talking about having sex with me already? Look, I think you're very attractive but I need a little more comfort and connection before I hop into bed with someone... Tell me something...

These things change the nature of the test into something more favorable to you.

I have heard a lot about that before. Supposedly making out releases the sexual tension and makes them not wanna bang? Idk. Could experiment.

That's possible. I'm thinking more about it definitively changing the nature of your interaction though.

When you go to the hot tub and you haven't kissed, she may not even totally be sure what's going on... are we friends? Is this sexually oriented? Is he going to make a move on me?

When you've kissed, she knows where this is going and that can bring up other issues that not doing it won't bring up, like ASD.

I definitely don't talk about sex or use any sex frames or shit. I just don't think it's in my nature or necessary, that just being a confident care free guy is all that's needed but once again I could be doing that thing you talked about where people just be themselves and don't try to improve.

Well, if that's all guys needed to do, that's what everyone would be doing. But if you're a guy and you've run into challenge after challenge after challenge and things don't seem to be working, you might take another route to get more certainty over where things are actually heading.

Most guys who are naturals, actually have subconscious patterns that they run when they're talking to girls. I've met a lot of naturals, all of them have patterns that they do, subconsciously, over and over to attract women to them and move things towards sex.

I haven't looked at RSD's stuff since about 2008... but back then, most of those guys teaching were guys who had learned Mystery Method materials, gotten good with them, and then used those patterns naturally and pretended like it was natural game.

We all do similar things over and over again. The only question is if they're actually leading us to the outcome we want or not. If they're not, it's worth trying something different (imo) and if they are, no reason to change it unless you want something better than what you're currently getting.

How was I supposed to make plans differently? With an exact time and location?

Yes... however, that probably wouldn't have mattered in this scenario, based off of what happened.

But we obviously won't ever really know for sure.

Yeah it really seemed she liked me too. I mean she paid for my ice cream when she didn't have to and she didn't even get any herself. That's after she drove 30 minutes one way to see me too. I did buy her wine first but still. Also she was real passionate when making out and yeah had no sense she wanted to stop hanging with me. I'm a unique guy, i felt she liked me.

I wish I could somehow have some one pick her brain and get honest answers about why she did what she did. Just out of curiosity and to learn. In my opinion she's dumb to make it so complicated but then again girls just do that shit sometimes. They seriously self sabotage. Not all girls do though. But I feel like even if the best pick up dudes watched perfect quality infield footage of my date with her that they wouldn't even know exactly what happened in her head. But maybe not, who knows.

You could always contact her again... give it some time and then reset. I know there are a lot of people that will tell you to move on... but if someone flakes or ghosts or whatever and you were planning on moving on anyway, you can pretty much do whatever you want with their contact info at that point and it doesn't matter.

If you want to message them again and find out what happened or try a time reset, you can do that. If she's not interested, it's going to be a dead number and she'll ghost on you... and if she is interested but she was just being weird or whatever, you can get another shot at it.

I have women in my community who come to me all the time telling me that this guy ghosted or that guy disappeared or whatever... and I have them reach out to the guy. I usually get, "But isn't that chasing!?!" And I say, "No, but even if it was, why does it matter? You're never going to talk to him again anyway. You might as well try something and see what happens with him."

And sure as shit, they'll reach out, using one of my text message sequences, often the guy will respond within a few hours, and then the next thing she knows, he's taking her on a date again. Sometimes it doesn't work... but at least now she knows.

If you aren't so butt hurt by her actions that you want to give it another go, send her a message and talk to her.

Never been called on it? Probably not, ugh. I should've called her out on it, after it was obviously ruined, just so maybe she doesn't repeat this situation in the future.

That probably won't help. We get this same thing in the women's dating side where these women think they're going to teach a man how he should behave before she ghosts him and it never works the way they think it will. I have a feeling the same thing will happen if you try to do that with her.

People see from their perspective, their lense... and they're usually stuck in that... just like you are and just like she probably is. With growth oriented people, there's more of a possibility of change... but that's even rare when it comes from someone who is lecturing them from a place of righteousness.

At least that's my experience. The best way is to come from a place of compassion. When someone feels understood, they're far more likely to listen to other points of view.

For instance, take our interaction... I could have taken the approach of telling you how fucked up you are and then told you what you need to do differently but we both know that wouldn't work very well. Instead, I listened, empathized, and even praised you in some cases and now I have you seeing new possibilities from structured game that you may have been otherwise resistant to.

Part of me wishes I could text her and even in a polite non angry way tell her that moving forward she should be much more considerate with peoples time and to not make plans she can't keep. She'd probably just think im even more psycho which I actually don't care about as long as it actually helps her stop doing it. It probably wouldn't though.

Exactly.

I wasn't actively setting any frames. Yeah interesting.

There are things that work and things that don't. There is definitely a lot of bullshit out there and you'll see and read some of it on this forum, no doubt.

Nobody on here knows everything or has perfect game. Nobody can tell you anything will definitely work out the way you want it to if you do x, y, or z.

What they can tell you is how to get the highest probability of what you want at different stages of the game. And IMO, the game is about probabilities... how do I stack all the odds in my favor so that I'm most likely to get the outcome that I want?

Yeah im kinda thinking that if a girl flakes once that Im just gonna be done with them. I don't even care if it's still possible to bang, they really shouldnt deserve my time. Unless they're apologetic and suggest a different day. So yeah maybe ill call them out over text, they'll probably just think im a psycho but maybe it'll help.

Trust me, I get it. I was in Ukraine last year running ads on Instagram to meet women during the lockdown. I think I may have had more women flake on me during that period of time than I've had my entire life combined.

It took a lot of me talking to Chase and him reframing some of my thoughts around flaking before I started giving these girls a second and third chance. But that was kind of out of necessity since I didn't have a ton of options during lockdown.

Is it normal behavior these days? I guess. Is it shit behavior? Yeah. Are you going to have to deal with a lot of it, especially with online game? From everyone I've talked to lately, that's the case.

People just suck. Guy friends flake on me sometimes.

We've become a flakey society.

I will never flake lol maybe I'll just have zero friends because of it lmao

Lol, you'll be the only one to show up places a lot.

It's good to live next to good day 2 spots, that way you have girls basically showing up at your place (if you're unable to get them to come directly there) and if they flake or don't show up, it's not like you're driving around town to meet them.

Dang that is a good habit. I forget about this but then sometimes i remember to do it. And it's fun to make a girl feel special, or to let them know why they're cool. I genuinely like most people. I like people. Unless they flake lmao but yeah I told this girl multiple times that she's hilarious, cuz I was laughing so hard, she was so blunt and honest and talked a lot of shit it was funny. Idk if that counts as qualifying though.

Not Qualification

Girl: *says something funny*

You: Haha, you're funny

Qualification

You: You seem pretty friendly. Are you like this with everyone or is it just me?

Her: I'm always friendly

You: Good, I get along better with friendly people. My best friend in college...

She once told me she went through a slut faze before her recent relationship, I told her it was cool she's honest about it, and that it's rare for girls to be honest about it cuz they get shamed for it when guys get congratulated. Maybe thats me qualifying her as well? Lol idk

That's definitely a lot closer. This could also be loosely considered sexual framing, btw. You're showing her that it's okay that she was a slut and that you won't judge her for it.

Woah, so even if its the first date and you are trying to bang that night, it's good to talk about doing future things together?

Yes. I used to make a bet with women that was always a part of my day 2 stack. It setup a day 3 as a part of the bet. And after I started doing it, I figured out that the day 3 almost always wasn't even necessary anymore because of the bet.

And if the day 3 was necessary, the bet made it so that the day 3 was going to be at their or my place.

The bet made it easy to setup a day 3 because then there wasn't a bunch of trying to figure out where or what to do together... here's what's happening... you're coming over or I'm coming over. We're meeting again.

And I like to debrief girls and find out what was going on with them. As a part of the debrief, I like to ask them when they knew we were going to sleep together. A surprising number of women told me that when I told them I wanted to see them again, they became open to it.

I thought that could almost seem creepy, like they'll think the guy is too invested too fast haha

Not if you qualify them. You're showing them you have standards and she's reaching those standards through your qualification process.

Qualification is one of the most underrated seduction skills that exists.

With this girl though I did tell her I'm nerdy about skyscrapers. Cuz its true. Then told her I'm actually nerdy about a lot of things, but that she'll get to know those things later haha maybe that sort of counts?

You're trying to eat the popcorn without cooking the kernels first. Just take the time and setup another date.

Dang thats a real good point thanks, I was super into self development in 2013/2014 and improved so much to the point I kinda went back to being myself haha

We all go through phases of different things.

Haha glad this is a win win. And yeah some dudes were hella harsh on me here, you weren't as harsh lol thanks

To be fair, you didn't really give a full picture of what was going on, just the part where it fell apart and you trying to save it. If they would have seen the stuff BEFORE what you posted about, I bet they would have been a lot more sympathetic to the situation, lol.

 

[Karea Ricardus D.]

>Yeah I just talk about whatever, no structure. I prefer just being in the moment and not trying to plan out certain topics, its more fun to me. Im sure I could lead the conversation to a specific direction if I needed to or tried to.

I know some people that that works for... most people I know who do it, it doesn't work for them consistently... which is why they come to places like this forum... or get bitter and jaded about women not liking them for who they are... or both.

>I definitely don't talk about sex or use any sex frames or shit. I just don't think it's in my nature or necessary, that just being a confident care free guy is all that's needed but once again I could be doing that thing you talked about where people just be themselves and don't try to improve.

Well, if that's all guys needed to do, that's what everyone would be doing. But if you're a guy and you've run into challenge after challenge after challenge and things don't seem to be working, you might take another route to get more certainty over where things are actually heading.

Most guys who are naturals, actually have subconscious patterns that they run when they're talking to girls. I've met a lot of naturals, all of them have patterns that they do, subconsciously, over and over to attract women to them and move things towards sex.

I haven't looked at RSD's stuff since about 2008... but back then, most of those guys teaching were guys who had learned Mystery Method materials, gotten good with them, and then used those patterns naturally and pretended like it was natural game.

We all do similar things over and over again. The only question is if they're actually leading us to the outcome we want or not. If they're not, it's worth trying something different (imo) and if they are, no reason to change it unless you want something better than what you're currently getting.

All new and intermediate guys should print this out and put the paper on their pillow so they read it every night before going to bed.

The importance of what Vision is talking about here couldn't possibly be overstated if you want to get good at game.

 

[trashKENNUT]

I haven't looked at RSD's stuff since about 2008... but back then, most of those guys teaching were guys who had learned Mystery Method materials, gotten good with them, and then used those patterns naturally and pretended like it was natural game.

We all do similar things over and over again. The only question is if they're actually leading us to the outcome we want or not. If they're not, it's worth trying something different (imo) and if they are, no reason to change it unless you want something better than what you're currently getting.

You know that there's a saying in boxing.
"When he gets hurt, and he will, he will go back to his old methods".

And this relates to the Tyson Fury vs Deontay Wilder 3. A boxing trainer noted this about Wilder. The translation is not accurate but the essence is that.

Wilder was doing well for the first 3 rounds. Then he went back to his old ways.

Quick Sidenote:
i see Cristiano and his partner Georgina. A younger Irina Shayk, was what I saw. (Leverage)

p.s: Cristiano, if you reading this. Sorry

I agree with you thru and thru. I look at myself. I see way too many patterns. Bad ones. Lolx. Problem is I have slowly dismantle this personally thru Moojiji (YouTube)

I just don't know how to help dismantle it for the guys here. And just this post, I already see something I didn't like in myself. Damn it.

z@c+

 

[Dylweed]

I know some people that that works for... most people I know who do it, it doesn't work for them consistently... which is why they come to places like this forum... or get bitter and jaded about women not liking them for who they are... or both.

interesting. Good to take into consideration. If i get more results from first dates that i don't like then I'll definitely have to change things up. Sounds exciting to try something new actually.

Amplify

Her: We're not having sex tonight...

You: I'm a virgin. Wait, are you talking about our body parts touching? You're that girl my grandma always warned me about, aren't you? I'll bet you'll have me chained to the bed in handcuffs. Should I be worried about you?

Reframe

Her: We're not having sex tonight...

You: Wait, are you talking about having sex with me already? Look, I think you're very attractive but I need a little more comfort and connection before I hop into bed with someone... Tell me something...

These things change the nature of the test into something more favorable to you.

Jeez, wish i could go back in time and do this, would be hilarious and fun to say some shit like this omg. Like almost embarrass the girl, the 2nd one i like a lot haha

That's possible. I'm thinking more about it definitively changing the nature of your interaction though.

When you go to the hot tub and you haven't kissed, she may not even totally be sure what's going on... are we friends? Is this sexually oriented? Is he going to make a move on me?

When you've kissed, she knows where this is going and that can bring up other issues that not doing it won't bring up, like ASD.

good point

Well, if that's all guys needed to do, that's what everyone would be doing. But if you're a guy and you've run into challenge after challenge after challenge and things don't seem to be working, you might take another route to get more certainty over where things are actually heading.

Most guys who are naturals, actually have subconscious patterns that they run when they're talking to girls. I've met a lot of naturals, all of them have patterns that they do, subconsciously, over and over to attract women to them and move things towards sex.

I haven't looked at RSD's stuff since about 2008... but back then, most of those guys teaching were guys who had learned Mystery Method materials, gotten good with them, and then used those patterns naturally and pretended like it was natural game.

We all do similar things over and over again. The only question is if they're actually leading us to the outcome we want or not. If they're not, it's worth trying something different (imo) and if they are, no reason to change it unless you want something better than what you're currently getting..

RSD changed a shit ton from that era for real. I learned from them in 2013/2014 and it was all about being yourself and inner game. Kinda the whole inner game vs outer game thing. Tyler from RSD definitely was mostly focused on inner game. Obviously you need both though.

Yes... however, that probably wouldn't have mattered in this scenario, based off of what happened.

But we obviously won't ever really know for sure.

true, i guess i'll make more concrete plans in the future haha

You could always contact her again... give it some time and then reset. I know there are a lot of people that will tell you to move on... but if someone flakes or ghosts or whatever and you were planning on moving on anyway, you can pretty much do whatever you want with their contact info at that point and it doesn't matter.

If you want to message them again and find out what happened or try a time reset, you can do that. If she's not interested, it's going to be a dead number and she'll ghost on you... and if she is interested but she was just being weird or whatever, you can get another shot at it.

I have women in my community who come to me all the time telling me that this guy ghosted or that guy disappeared or whatever... and I have them reach out to the guy. I usually get, "But isn't that chasing!?!" And I say, "No, but even if it was, why does it matter? You're never going to talk to him again anyway. You might as well try something and see what happens with him."

And sure as shit, they'll reach out, using one of my text message sequences, often the guy will respond within a few hours, and then the next thing she knows, he's taking her on a date again. Sometimes it doesn't work... but at least now she knows.

If you aren't so butt hurt by her actions that you want to give it another go, send her a message and talk to her.

so on the date, she added me on instagram, we both followed each other. It was her idea. And she watched one of my stories the next day. Anyways, she must have blocked me on there actually after all this happened lmao she thinks im super psycho. So i doubt she'd respond. I'm honestly pretty butt hurt about her rejection that i probably couldn't even pull it off anyways unless she acted pretty damn nice to my text. I'd honestly have no idea what to say at this point after everything that happened. What would you text her in this situation? It's true that I have nothing to lose lol

That probably won't help. We get this same thing in the women's dating side where these women think they're going to teach a man how he should behave before she ghosts him and it never works the way they think it will. I have a feeling the same thing will happen if you try to do that with her.

People see from their perspective, their lense... and they're usually stuck in that... just like you are and just like she probably is. With growth oriented people, there's more of a possibility of change... but that's even rare when it comes from someone who is lecturing them from a place of righteousness.

At least that's my experience. The best way is to come from a place of compassion. When someone feels understood, they're far more likely to listen to other points of view.

For instance, take our interaction... I could have taken the approach of telling you how fucked up you are and then told you what you need to do differently but we both know that wouldn't work very well. Instead, I listened, empathized, and even praised you in some cases and now I have you seeing new possibilities from structured game that you may have been otherwise resistant to.

yeah good point

There are things that work and things that don't. There is definitely a lot of bullshit out there and you'll see and read some of it on this forum, no doubt.

Nobody on here knows everything or has perfect game. Nobody can tell you anything will definitely work out the way you want it to if you do x, y, or z.

What they can tell you is how to get the highest probability of what you want at different stages of the game. And IMO, the game is about probabilities... how do I stack all the odds in my favor so that I'm most likely to get the outcome that I want?

yeah good point again haha

It's good to live next to good day 2 spots, that way you have girls basically showing up at your place (if you're unable to get them to come directly there) and if they flake or don't show up, it's not like you're driving around town to meet them.

that's true. And at least with this girl here i didn't drive far for nothing ever so thats cool

Not Qualification

Girl: *says something funny*

You: Haha, you're funny

Qualification

You: You seem pretty friendly. Are you like this with everyone or is it just me?

Her: I'm always friendly

You: Good, I get along better with friendly people. My best friend in college...

that's dope thanks. I'll read up on qualification for sure.

That's definitely a lot closer. This could also be loosely considered sexual framing, btw. You're showing her that it's okay that she was a slut and that you won't judge her for it.

Right. Which you'd think would make her be down to fuck if she was down to make out but i guess not haha maybe if i played my cards differently.

Yes. I used to make a bet with women that was always a part of my day 2 stack. It setup a day 3 as a part of the bet. And after I started doing it, I figured out that the day 3 almost always wasn't even necessary anymore because of the bet.

And if the day 3 was necessary, the bet made it so that the day 3 was going to be at their or my place.

The bet made it easy to setup a day 3 because then there wasn't a bunch of trying to figure out where or what to do together... here's what's happening... you're coming over or I'm coming over. We're meeting again.

And I like to debrief girls and find out what was going on with them. As a part of the debrief, I like to ask them when they knew we were going to sleep together. A surprising number of women told me that when I told them I wanted to see them again, they became open to it.

Wow that's amazing information holy shit haha thanks!

Can you explain the bet a little better?

Not if you qualify them. You're showing them you have standards and she's reaching those standards through your qualification process.

Qualification is one of the most underrated seduction skills that exists.

okay dope haha

You're trying to eat the popcorn without cooking the kernels first. Just take the time and setup another date.

Yeah i guess i should've said, "she'll get to know more the next time we hang out" or something like that.

To be fair, you didn't really give a full picture of what was going on, just the part where it fell apart and you trying to save it. If they would have seen the stuff BEFORE what you posted about, I bet they would have been a lot more sympathetic to the situation, lol.

I didn't. I assume people won't wanna read a giant amount of text with backstory. So i just skipped the back story. So people read what i wrote but then just assumed the worst lmao

 

[Vision]

Jeez, wish i could go back in time and do this, would be hilarious and fun to say some shit like this omg. Like almost embarrass the girl, the 2nd one i like a lot haha

Bottom line is that when she says that you're not having sex, she's thinking about having sex with you.

She thinks she's setting a boundary... what you're doing is pointing out the fact that she's a horny girl, thinking about having sex with you and you're reframing the meaning of what's going on inside of her mind.

She's not going to be embarrassed about it, unless you act like it's actually inappropriate... but that's not what you're doing. This is high level flirting. You're not attacking her, you're playing with her mind and emotions in an attractive, fun way.

She's setting a frame, a social agreement between the two of you... and you're actively changing that agreement at the moment that it's being spoken.

Right? What frame is this?

"We're not having sex tonight"... it's a frame of "you're chasing sex with me, I'm the chooser, and I say whether we have sex or not." You're chasing sex with her.

You're twisting it around to... "you're horny, I'm the chooser, and I need something more before I make a decision about sex or not." She's chasing sex with you.

There's an old frame that Tyler from RSD used to use called the Sexual Predator frame where he put it on the girl that she was a sexual predator (or women are sexual predators).

You'll still need to lead her to sex but women tend to be a lot more willing to go down that path with less resistance if you're flipping the frame around and accusing them of being the sexual pursuer while you're the innocent one being pursued.

It's not a necessary frame but it does work. I've used it successfully many times.

RSD changed a shit ton from that era for real. I learned from them in 2013/2014 and it was all about being yourself and inner game. Kinda the whole inner game vs outer game thing. Tyler from RSD definitely was mostly focused on inner game. Obviously you need both though.

You're right, you do need both... I mean, technically, you don't need inner game to get laid but you do need it to feel good about yourself while you're doing it... and it certainly changes who you attract, what you allow into your life, etc.

so on the date, she added me on instagram, we both followed each other. It was her idea. And she watched one of my stories the next day. Anyways, she must have blocked me on there actually after all this happened lmao she thinks im super psycho. So i doubt she'd respond.

Or maybe she's embarrassed that she made an ass out of herself or she's sad she didn't get the deep dick... it's hard to know... maybe she's wishing you would have played your cards better the first day and pounded her pussy into oblivion.

I'd guess that's probably more accurate. Most girls are actually sad when we fuck the game up. They want us to do the right things, make them feel the right way, set everything up correctly so that they can get led to the sexual promise land.

They're sad when we don't do it right. It's true... ask girls about it, you'll find out.

I'm honestly pretty butt hurt about her rejection that i probably couldn't even pull it off anyways unless she acted pretty damn nice to my text. I'd honestly have no idea what to say at this point after everything that happened. What would you text her in this situation? It's true that I have nothing to lose lol

If she's blocked you, there's probably not much you can really do at this point.

Right. Which you'd think would make her be down to fuck if she was down to make out but i guess not haha maybe if i played my cards differently.

Maybe she was...

Wow that's amazing information holy shit haha thanks!

Can you explain the bet a little better?

I could but I'm not going to. No offense to you. But this is a public forum so I think I'm going to keep my stuff off it so that it's not searchable.

I didn't. I assume people won't wanna read a giant amount of text with backstory. So i just skipped the back story. So people read what i wrote but then just assumed the worst lmao

Yeah, I felt like we were missing some context, lol.