Is game harder than it was 10 years ago?

Karea Ricardus D.

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I keep hearing from all kinds of people that the game is a lot harder now than it used to be. And for a while I believed it had gotten harder myself. About 4 years ago I started to notice that I had to work a lot harder for a lot less results… but looking back, I was in a city that doesn’t really lend itself to daygame, and so I was using tinder. And tinder is mega rigged.

I haven't been cold approaching, but I've been doing a bunch of online stuff and I loosely stayed in touch with the scene. Here are my thoughts on the topic, and I'd be curious to hear yours. The two cases I can see for game being more difficult now:

1. Smart phones messed with the SMP, since girls get far more sausage thrown in their face now. Especially the dating apps are definitely rigged against most guys. I do believe tinder is harder than it was when it first came out, and it’s harder than even other forms of online dating. But, I’ve seen stats that most girls aren’t using tinder actively. And more importantly, I think online attention is about as fulfilling to girls as porn is to guys. Yeah it’s fun... but it just doesn’t really cut it. It’s empty.

2. Direct daygame is probably harder now because it’s not a novelty anymore. 10-15 years ago, some girls responded to a direct street approach with “Wow… Oh my God… This has never happened to me before”. Flattered, stunned, impressed. A2 is done. Now it seems I can’t go downtown in any European city without seeing some PUAs around.

All that said… is REAL pickup artistry harder now than it used to be? I don’t consider direct approaches real pickup artistry… they’re more like “hitting on girls". Don't get me wrong, they're great... I love them and I have dozens of lays from them. But they're just one tool in our toolbox and probably should be bonus rounds, not your bread and butter (I will elaborate on this below).

If you’re in a huge city with over 2 million people... fine… do them.
If it’s direct or nothing because you will never see her again... fine… do them.
But realize it’s pretty much a numbers game.

The reason being, girls don’t judge a guy’s attractiveness in 1-2 minutes. Unless you’re the “classically handsome” type, it takes them about 20 to 25 minutes to decide if they like you. Even the hottest girls (I’m talking literally top models) ARE 100% open to average looking guys, because personality CAN get them extremely attracted, even in the absence of a guy having those model good looks. I can vouch for this from personal experience, on many occasions.
Geoffrey Miller said:
What women are looking for, in short term mating, is not just bad boys. They're looking also for guys who are really witty and intellectually exciting, or musically or artistically talented, or who really excel at lots of mental displays, even that might be completely useless and irrelevant in a long-term relationship, but that are still really impressive.
Miller is one of the top evolutionary psychologists in the world, focused on studying human mating scientifically. But this sexy PERSONALITY he talks about takes TIME to convey. About 20-25 minutes. A direct street stop, or a few pictures on tinder, both short circuit her entire evaluation loop. In both cases you’re asking her to make a decision without enough data. That works fine if you’re this guy:

ELipVf7.png


I have a bunch of friends who look like that and cold approach, so I can confirm this is real. If you do NOT look like that, you need some time to display yourself if you want better odds.

Imagine you’re in the market to buy a new car. A car salesman stops you on the street, shows you a car as you’re on your way to an appointment and you’re in a rush. Or, he only swipes through a few pictures of the car on his phone. He says: “hey, do you want to buy this car?” You’re already late and don’t really have time to assess the car. You’re actually looking for a car, and this one looks great, but he’s forcing you to make a decision in 2 minutes and you know almost nothing about him or the car. Plus he just stopped you in the street like a bum.

What would you say? “Uhm… I don’t know… I guess I’ll pass… I gotta go, sorry.” Maybe you’ll give him your number and then rush off and forget about it. Exact same response most direct street approaches get. Doesn’t mean she wouldn’t like you if you had more time with her. “Give me ten minutes to talk away my ugly face and I will bed the Queen of France.” -Voltaire.

Torero says the best daygamers lay 1 in 30 approaches. I’ve been hanging out with some of his friends and they confirmed this is considered an excellent stat among the top Euro jaunters. Newbies, 1 in 100. Really guys? One in one HUNDRED? Come on... that isn’t game. That is spam.

I hope people still remember Mystery used to actually go 5 for 5, and he’s accomplished this on a number of occasions. Approach five hot girls and lay ALL of them. I haven’t met him, but many of my friends have… enough to vouch for the veracity of these claims. My old mentor CJ actually did one better, as he had streaks of “more lays than opens”, because he developed tech that got girls to open him, and then he took down all of them.. My personal best was 3 lays out of 7 cold approaches in one day. chur (top level ASF guy) was with me that day and can corroborate.

So it seems to me: 1. direct daygame is harder now, due to saturation, yes. It was a bit of a loop hole 10-15 years ago, a gap in the market that has since been balanced. And 2. online game is harder now, due to smart phones, yes.

But actual pickup arts? Engineering a situation where you can talk to a girl for 20-25 minutes before making a move? Engineering social proof before you even open? Is all that harder? I guess the plandemic has made that somewhat harder with all the dog muzzles and BS rules. But outside of that, could it actually be easier now, because nobody really does it much anymore?

There are a lot of hot girls where I am… and I see most of them with guys / as couples. Surely those guys are meeting them somehow, yes? How are they doing it? From talking to them, I guess many people seem to meet through social circle again these days?

There was an NLP axiom that we often used to quote back in the day: “what the thinker thinks, the prover proves.” If you believe game is harder now, it will ACTUALLY be true. It will become a self fulfilling prophecy. Your belief will turn out to be true in your experience of OBJECTIVE reality.

The reason is that your negative expectation will cause you to unconsciously act more fearfully, which gets conveyed to the girl in your mannerisms,voice tone and other subtle non-verbal cues. She will then respond accordingly with significantly lower attraction, if any. Your negative expectation will also cause you to make less moves and the moves you do make will be less bold. (The inverse of all the above is also true). What girls you can and can’t get is largely about your own beliefs.

So: I would make the case that >>>the more you use tinder, instagram and other online and smart phone crap, the harder actual cold approach will be for you also<<<. The reason is that these apps will crush your self esteem. Through no fault of your own but simply because they’re set up in a fundamentally counter-productive way. And you cannot be a successful ladiesman with a crushed self esteem any more than you can be a successful MMA fighter with a crushed body.

For a while I used the apps and they’ve caused some deservingness issues from my AFC days 20 years ago to resurface, along with some serious AA. Fucking ridiculous. I hear my mind say dumb shit like “I hope she likes me” or even “she probably won’t like me”, which I KNOW from past experience to be false. I wish I had never even touched these apps. They definitely messed with my head.

It is of course entirely possible that I’m wrong about the above, and that game really is objectively harder now for everyone. I’ll have to see how it goes this year. I can see game actually being harder along one dynamic: flakiness… simply because girls have much more leads now than they used to have. Even I as a guy got flakey as hell when I had dozens or hundreds of numbers or online matches. It was really hard for girls to pin me down. All other elements of game, I don’t think should really be affected.

Thoughts?

1. I’d love to hear your perspective, especially if you’re in field doing cold approach. Not based on online game or the moan-a-sphere, as Torero called it (rest in peace, brother).

2. I’d especially love to hear from anyone that’s actually making cold approach work in 2022 (1-2 lays a month absolute minumum, better 5-10). What have you observed in terms of changes vs. 5-10 years ago?

3. Finally I’d be very curious what “naturals” do these days. Is that still a thing? Jockular guys racking up 10-20 lays a month from cold approach, all without ever reading a website about dating?

Curious to hear your thoughts y’all!

-Karea Ricardus D.
 

Warped Mindless

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Couple of points I’d like to make as someone who’s been doing daygame since 2006.

Note that all of this is coming from the prospective of an American who has approached and bedded women in almost all major cities (former dating coach and now I travel a lot on business).

1: What you are calling direct game does seem to be a little less effective. That said, I believe that Europe has way more guys actually out approaching women than here in the states (Outside of a few cities).

2: Things might be different in Europe but 1 in 30 isn’t that great for over here in the states. 1 in 100 is ridiculous anywhere and everywhere and I’m not sure why so many people seem to think it’s good.

3: While certain aspects are a bit harder, overall, seduction is even easier in 2022 because women are CRAVING real men. The hard part for some “puas” is that they must evolve. Many community guys simple have very low emotional intelligence and just can’t keep current. For example: I used to be one of the guys that preached “text less and mostly only use it for logistics.” Now being able to text and seduce her mind over texting is highly important and really helps with the flaking issue but it must be done right. I’ll make a post on this.

4: There are some average looking dudes out there killing it on Tinder; I am not one of them. I hate online shit. They are dressing very stylish and getting professional pics taken of them doing cool things. They then look up metrics of the best times to message, the best days, the best length of the message, etc. Some of these dudes are getting 40+ lays a year from a combo on Tinder, Bumble, and other swipe apps. The ones that have been doing it for a long while says it’s not ”harder” just takes more upfront effort getting the professional pics and such.

I agree with your overall assessment and am really glad you are back!
 

Skills

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Ricardus welcome back, i have been actively gaming for years, so i game in 3 different generations, so you will have an initial shock factor since you are out and now you are coming back in..... I am good friends of pure evil he loves you... I got a show him your welcome back post so to see if it motivate him to come back (he won't he is done, even done i keep selling him for a come back)...

You will have to work a lot harder (front work unless some of the recos i give) and as you are trying to do re-adjust a lot of your stuff (i read a lot of your stuff), not much, initially it will be a mind fuck (happened to me), cause a lot of the stuff that used to work back then is not going to work the same a lot of twicking.... If you are out of the us, london, canada..... You will be already a bit ahead of the game, in those places the sexual market place is beyond fucked unless you can move to a 3rd type city......

A lot of the naturals are not getting laid, and have jumped shipped (in usa)...

The sexual market place is way harder than it was back then, cause the dtf easy picking gone/adios.... The 3-6 women a weekend from night game is over..... The 3 different types of games have gotten harder for everyone, corona has fucked the whole thing even worst... The main problems in night game is women not coming out, and i was loling at your night game observation welcome to vip clubs are going to be like that so get used to that.... Main problem with day game is masks, so you need to do aa anxiety drills and learn to deal with masks, online you need to diversify with multiple apps and i would pay like tinder gold...

everything you are asking i answer here on the state of seduction, tldr the front end seduction way harder, the back end seduction easier(guys now a days got no game what so ever they suck big time)...Those numbers you posted lol, not going to happen...That was back then not now......

To get laid these is what you have so you don't waste your time:

-There is only one gold mind still intact which i recently discover and is believe it or not "latin venues/latin dancing groups etc..." they are behind the times and they are 2010 American clubs... In other words they are behind the times generationally so now they are in generation x socially.... So i used to advice avoid at all cost latin clubs/latin stuff cause back then they were stuck in boomer generation, but now that is the only gold mind left i recently discover.... if am you start there easy peachy/ i got a dude laid right away in one of those...

- social circle

- cross gaming (day, night, online) with a lot grind...

- special events gaming (halloween, new years, st patrick day, 5 the mayo etc..) special events are way more powerful now than back in the days, women seem to come out of hermit status on those special occasions)

- alt lifestyle (swinger/kink community shit)

-You guys with tinder, tinder is the worst imho...(and forget about spam messaging, after 6 messages the systerm will catch on and you are fucked)..... they know all the shit we do...


once you find an angle you will be ok, but the 3 lays a weekend from night/day game cold approach, that was common back then, nah!
 

metalbird

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There are a lot of hot girls where I am… and I see most of them with guys / as couples. Surely those guys are meeting them somehow, yes? How are they doing it? From talking to them, I guess many people seem to meet through social circle again these days?
Yes, exactly. This also means that the ratio of single women has gone down due to more time spent in relationships, starting younger.

Personally, I attribute this to the gradual shift away from individualism/liberalism (in USA culture at least, don't know about elsewhere) towards social conservatism, which was massively accelerated by the pandemic.

Reference:

Individual meeting/mating is out-trending, social circle/"arranged" type mating is in-trending.

Finally I’d be very curious what “naturals” do these days. Is that still a thing? Jockular guys racking up 10-20 lays a month from cold approach, all without ever reading a website about dating?
The ones I know that would have fit that bill aren't putting numbers like that up anymore (even though they could), rather they're more likely to shack up with a main and have threesomes/side stuff here and there.

There are serious benefits to LTRs, a lot of them materially driven. The economy has made dual income increasingly attractive for young people, as rent continues to rise across the US and inflation is STILL outpacing wages. Additionally, couples don't feel pressure to get legally married the way they once did, so there's less financial risk for LTRs for men.

I am not a pro the way these other guys are, but I've been doing this pretty intently for about 10 years, and I definitely had much better success (despite worse fundamentals) when I was starting out.
 
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Warped Mindless

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I do notice a higher number of women who are in relationships but also notice that more of them are willing to cheat.

One minute a girl will be posting some thing on Facebook about how much she loves her BF, 10 minutes later she’s messaging the dude she’s fucking behind his back to set up their next meet. I’ve seen this over and over again with my fuck buddies and my friends with fuck buddies all report the same things.
 

Tayo

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I do notice a higher number of women who are in relationships but also notice that more of them are willing to cheat.

One minute a girl will be posting some thing on Facebook about how much she loves her BF, 10 minutes later she’s messaging the dude she’s fucking behind his back to set up their next meet. I’ve seen this over and over again with my fuck buddies and my friends with fuck buddies all report the same things.
Exactly! When I was younger, guys used to say "every lady has a boyfriend... just approach nevertheless."
 

pancakemouse

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2: Things might be different in Europe but 1 in 30 isn’t that great for over here in the states. 1 in 100 is ridiculous anywhere and everywhere and I’m not sure why so many people seem to think it’s good.
Daygame 1 in 30 is elite tier. Almost no guy is putting up those sort of numbers with proof, and if he is he's only approaching off of IOIs/archetype matching/seated sets/solo tourists and running extremely low volume (low ROI game).

I hope people still remember Mystery used to actually go 5 for 5, and he’s accomplished this on a number of occasions. Approach five hot girls and lay ALL of them. I haven’t met him, but many of my friends have… enough to vouch for the veracity of these claims. My old mentor CJ actually did one better, as he had streaks of “more lays than opens”, because he developed tech that got girls to open him, and then he took down all of them.. My personal best was 3 lays out of 7 cold approaches in one day. chur (top level ASF guy) was with me that day and can corroborate.

...

3. Finally I’d be very curious what “naturals” do these days. Is that still a thing? Jockular guys racking up 10-20 lays a month from cold approach, all without ever reading a website about dating?

Curious to hear your thoughts y’all!

-Karea Ricardus D.
Mystery's "5 for 5", complete bullshit, I don't believe that for a minute. No proof. And if it was it was totally random variance, likely he was dating down and getting extremely lucky. Might have happened once, and the girls certainly weren't hot.

Notice how no one in the community actually publishes transparent stats (except for me).

Naturals never racked up 10-20 lays a month from cold approach. Myth. Again, these guys never published stats and inflated their numbers.
 

Warped Mindless

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Daygame 1 in 30 is elite tier. Almost no guy is putting up those sort of numbers with proof, and if he is he's only approaching off of IOIs/archetype matching/seated sets/solo tourists and running extremely low volume (low ROI game).
I don’t keep a spreadsheet like you apparently do but I know I was under 1 in 30 last year for day game. One of my friends is better than me and did extremely well. Some people keep saying that game is harder now but Ohio girls never seemed to get that message because they are out fucking like it’s the end of the world.

I could have seen it wrong but I think @Gunwitch said something about going 1 in 20 in the chat. Maybe he will pop in this thread and clear that up.

@pancakemouse aren’t you the dude that said 1 in 100 were good numbers? Where do you live that women are such frigid insufferable creatures that hate men and sex? I want to never go there.

There was a dude years ago on mpuaforum and rsdnation that was going like 1 in 150 and claiming it was good and that everyone else was simply lying about their stats. Is that you?
 

metalbird

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Daygame 1 in 30 is elite tier. Almost no guy is putting up those sort of numbers with proof, and if he is he's only approaching off of IOIs/archetype matching/seated sets/solo tourists and running extremely low volume (low ROI game).
You can't really expect people to post transparent stats, but you can't assume they're completely lying either. Take it with a grain of salt.

I suspect you underestimate what exists at the far reaches of the bell curve my friend. Some naturals... THEY get approached by more than 1 in 30 women they meet. And no, it's not only about their looks either.

Also, you say 1/30 is impossible without taking advantage of IOIs/archetypal matching/seated sets/solo tourists/low volume game. The last one there doesn't fit with the rest. Some guys live in touristy places where there are tons of tourists... so they can approach solo tourists with high volume. Some guys have found niches that put them into contact with many women that fit their archetype (think of the guy who becomes a yoga teacher and then goes on to run his own school, or the guy who becomes a suba dive instructor in Rio).

Sure, these guys are not common. But I guarantee you they exist; I've know real life examples of all of the above.

Finally, at the end of the day, there are no rules to life. Do what works. If you're gonna get better results from low volume game, do low volume game. Nobody's saying you have to spam approach.
 

sab

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Yes, exactly. This also means that the ratio of single women has gone down due to more time spent in relationships, starting younger.

Personally, I attribute this to the gradual shift away from individualism/liberalism (in USA culture at least, don't know about elsewhere) towards social conservatism, which was massively accelerated by the pandemic.

Reference:

Individual meeting/mating is out-trending, social circle/"arranged" type mating is in-trending.


The ones I know that would have fit that bill aren't putting numbers like that up anymore (even though they could), rather they're more likely to shack up with a main and have threesomes/side stuff here and there.

There are serious benefits to LTRs, a lot of them materially driven. The economy has made dual income increasingly attractive for young people, as rent continues to rise across the US and inflation is STILL outpacing wages. Additionally, couples don't feel pressure to get legally married the way they once did, so the reduces some of the financial risk of LTRs for men.

I am not a pro the way these other guys are, but I've been doing this pretty intently for about 10 years, and I definitely had much better success (despite worse fundamentals) when I was starting out.
I think it is right to emphasize the economic and social forces in bringing about this reduction of attractive single women available for approaching- exacerbated by the pandemic via online dating apps including sugar babies. Some girls do not want to be approached because of Covid. I have seen it in some cases. The larger demographic trends are also at work at the macro level (less kids with aging population). I love abundance. So one needs better game + fundamentals and/or move/travel to another country/place with better supply of attractive women or become a yoga or salsa teacher:).
 
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Karea Ricardus D.

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Good input everyone. I'll take these one at a time.
Couple of points I’d like to make as someone who’s been doing daygame since 2006.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. Your post sounds absolutely spot on to me.
For example: I used to be one of the guys that preached “text less and mostly only use it for logistics.”
Yeah, me too. I usually sent her 3-4 messages total between the pickup and the day 2. I'd love to hear what you do instead now, you said you'll make a post about it, would you link me when you do please?
There are some average looking dudes out there killing it on Tinder
Yeah, I could see how it can would work with the right social proof, fashion, life style, professional pics, and so forth. I do have friends who make it work, too, but I think the time investment for that is quite significant.

Even then you said 40+ lays per year... sounds like cold approach still wins in quantity. I had a look at the field report section last night and saw 4-5 lays in a month from someone.

Mostly though I've found from my and all my friends' experience, you usually end up dating down on tinder. Girls will either be less hot than what you could get with cold approach, OR they'll be hot but bat-shit nuts, or total cunts... so cold approach wins in terms of both quantity and quality also.

YMMV. But yeah I deleted tinder ages ago.
I agree with your overall assessment and am really glad you are back!
Thanks man. It's good to be back and see this board is actually full of serious guys who are actually out in field and doing shit. Cool!
 

ZacAdam

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Don't entertained me.
I'm just posting. Don't entertained me.

////////////

Just by this post, I realize how fuck we are as a society.
- cold approach to lay numbers
- lay numbers
- If you believe game is harder, it will be.


Just this past few years, we had arguments and we are in a niche group, PUA. From traffic light method to this game is harder.

I do believe game is harder.
I also do believe that if you believe girls are quality, they will lie to you.

Which means that all Girlschase post on getting "Quality" women, is literally thrown out the window

Because what is "quality" and is 80 lays means that you are now better than most guys here?
Someone with 80 lays (maybe he's lying. Let's say 40) still does not understand women.

TLDR:
- Is game harder? Yes and No
- Does 1000 lay counts means u are good? No
- What is "quality"? It doesn't exist
- Even the guys here can't differentiate realities (daygame reality vs social circle game reality, girls reaction reality vs girls lays reality, approach numbers reality vs online message numbers reality, the new post Coronavirus world)

Just this year and it's not fucking February yet! Ignore this post. -.- I see the problem. I just need to time to dismantle it for myself

z@c+
 

Teevster

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I hope people still remember Mystery used to actually go 5 for 5, and he’s accomplished this on a number of occasions. Approach five hot girls and lay ALL of them. I haven’t met him, but many of my friends have… enough to vouch for the veracity of these claims.

That is quite impressive. During high momentum my score is mostly around 1/3 avg. During bad momentum it is 1/10 approx. My "overall average" is 1/5 - bad, normal and high momentum included.

This includes only one-night stands. I could probably up my ratio by taking the number of the 2 other girls (within the 1/3 ratio) that I did not pull that night and probably increase my ratio. I know Mystery takes numbers and stuff so this is probably why you can do that. You can't do a 3/3 ratio if you exclusively opt for ONS only, unless you intend to opt for 4 somes... but let us be realistic.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to actually CLOSE all the girls i talk to - and here I mean also taking numbers and not just going for the ONS. Perhaps over time, this could incrase my ratio even further. When the nightlife reopens in a few weeks I will do that (omg I am so excited) - it will give me some texting practice which I desperately need (weakest spot in my game).

My old mentor CJ actually did one better, as he had streaks of “more lays than opens”, because he developed tech that got girls to open him, and then he took down all of them.

How is CaptainJack (CJ) doing? (you are welcome to let me know over PM if it involves private info). Would be awesome if he could join us here.

Now... what is that special tech he developed? (FYI it is easier to take down girls who approach you... but the hard part is getting them to approach you in the first place I guess).

My personal best was 3 lays out of 7 cold approaches in one day

That's is pretty insane! High momentum ratios indeed.

My best was 3/3 in one night.... actually here is the report. Fun fact: the third girl was one I met after closing time. The girls I pulled lived in the center and they kicked me out after the 3some because they had to get up early the next day. So I left, and on the way I met a group of people (2 girls one dude) and we ended up afterpartying in hotel... that said that last girl was fat (prob a 5). I went for it just to see how far I could push it - I really wanted to do 3 girls in one night... and that the last one being a 5... didn't bother me. But yeah I cut that event out of the initial report.

Good times.

Sadly, the new normal is 1/30 and 1/100. Not the game I knew!

chur (top level ASF guy) was with me that day and can corroborate.


Chur! totally forgot that name. What happened to him? Send regards.

But actual pickup arts? Engineering a situation where you can talk to a girl for 20-25 minutes before making a move? Engineering social proof before you even open? Is all that harder?

No. It works as well as it has always worked.
I would even say that it works a slightly better than it used to due to the fact that guys truly suck with women these days (male competition is not a thing anymore... you don't cross any naturals in clubs... or very rarely). So, whenever you do shit like this you truly stand out.

There are a lot of hot girls where I am… and I see most of them with guys / as couples. Surely those guys are meeting them somehow, yes? How are they doing it? From talking to them, I guess many people seem to meet through social circle again these days?

Some research show that later generations, including Gen Z would be more conservative than say my generation (kids born in the 90's). One reason some sociologists have stated is that this generation grew up with terrorism, financial crisis, mass-unemployement and all that. Hence hard times lead to people teaming up. What do I know. But I have noticed more people are in couple. More people, including in the Richer western europe seems to get kids earlier and even marry. It aint an issue in the field per.se. since most of these girls won't head out too often, but it is an interesting sociological fact.

Those men mostly meet those girls through their social circle.

My observation in nightgame is that I see less flirting, less people making out, less guys hooking with girls. I see this very seldom. It is weird. When I started out people where hooking up much more. Hence it is obvious many guys believe game is harder when nobody is hooking up. But part of the reasons is that men:
- Focus too much on online - where as you mention, women have inflated egos. Online is rigger.
- Use the wrong strategy when meeting women.

The use of social media and the lack of socialization has made young men totally socially retarded. They have no social skills. It is both hillarious and sad at the same time. Women? they are also less socially intelligent. They get blown away by shit that back in the days would only grant you a few attraction points. They also do not test as much anymore and their frame-control is just shit. You can bulldoze.

However due to the fact that it is not part of girl's modus operandi to have casual sex with strangers from clubs or bars, more comfort is needed. You experience more resistance due to lacks of comfort. My game is more comfort oriented than back in the days, where all the emphasis was on making her desire me... (sexual frames, sex talk, escalation, DHV etc) - and rightfully so, because back in the days in clubs, you had to stimulate the crap out of her to even have a chance. That said, I still need to stimulate - but more to deal with their shortened attention span. However when it comes to arousal, things are a piece of cake. Don't get me wrong, you still need to DHV and set sexual frames, but a slightly less than back in the days. However, more emphasis should be put on making her feel allowed to have sex with you. It is a minor adjustment, but with major impacts on your results.

Now, the mere fact that women do not have spontaneous sex with strangers from clubs and bars as often as they used to, will also have an impact on daygame, due to the fact that... if she is less used to going home with men from bars and clubs, it will have a spillover effect on daygame.

However, again, I need to emphasize this: this is not hard to deal with. You need to focus on making her feel allowed. The subject you need to focus on is FSC (female state control) and how to deal with it (social frame: dhv, social proof, rapport, making her invest). This should not be a problem for you who happen to be trained and specialized in MM (it was more of a problem for the sexual game crowd - myself included). In other words, things look bright for you.

So: I would make the case that >>>the more you use tinder, instagram and other online and smart phone crap, the harder actual cold approach will be for you also<<<. The reason is that these apps will crush your self esteem. Through no fault of your own but simply because they’re set up in a fundamentally counter-productive way. And you cannot be a successful ladiesman with a crushed self esteem any more than you can be a successful MMA fighter with a crushed body.

This is a good observation and I agree 100% with it.

For a while I used the apps and they’ve caused some deservingness issues from my AFC days 20 years ago to resurface, along with some serious AA.

During lockdown I played around with Tinder. It made me feel like I was the least attractive guy on the planet. Totally self-confidence wrecking (mind you that I have professionally taken pictures).

It is of course entirely possible that I’m wrong about the above, and that game really is objectively harder now for everyone. I’ll have to see how it goes this year.

I can tell you that I would get no results and Tinder - barely match with anyone, barely get any response.... while pulling 2 girls a week end in September. You can't play around with Tinder if you don't have your real infield game in check. When you do, you can play with Tinder as a supplement - the lack of results won't screw with your head.

3. Finally I’d be very curious what “naturals” do these days. Is that still a thing? Jockular guys racking up 10-20 lays a month from cold approach, all without ever reading a website about dating?

There are no more naturals. I know of two in all of Paris... and I have been out a LOT.

Never met a natural who would shag as many women though.

But that's a different subject.


I do notice a higher number of women who are in relationships but also notice that more of them are willing to cheat.

One minute a girl will be posting some thing on Facebook about how much she loves her BF, 10 minutes later she’s messaging the dude she’s fucking behind his back to set up their next meet. I’ve seen this over and over again with my fuck buddies and my friends with fuck buddies all report the same things.

Correct. And this has been accelerated with covid. Women have a BF just for the sake of having a BF. There is no passion, or love or anything. They just go full-blown serial monogamy with cheating on the side.

There is a tihng called "covid boyfriend" - basically a guy she had a relationship with to cope with the pandemic. Once shit reopens... shit truly hits the fans (because the relationship is artificial, since they wouldn't have had one in normal circumstances, so one things become more normalized, the relationship becomes... yeah...)

Best,
Teevs
 
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Teevster

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2: Things might be different in Europe but 1 in 30 isn’t that great for over here in the states. 1 in 100 is ridiculous anywhere and everywhere and I’m not sure why so many people seem to think it’s good.

I live in Europe. 1 in 30 isn't that great. 1/100 is ridiculously bad.
3: While certain aspects are a bit harder, overall, seduction is even easier in 2022 because women are CRAVING real men. The hard part for some “puas” is that they must evolve. Many community guys simple have very low emotional intelligence and just can’t keep current. For example: I used to be one of the guys that preached “text less and mostly only use it for logistics.” Now being able to text and seduce her mind over texting is highly important and really helps with the flaking issue but it must be done right. I’ll make a post on this.

I agree with you here. That said, the amount of calibration required to fit with the times is minimal, but those few tweaks have a major impact.

Regarding texting: I have to agree. A few simple texts doesn't cut it anymore. She is actually bombarded with texts from at least 4 different apps.

However, although I agree that you need better texting game, I have to disagree that going for it is a better strategy. See, one a market is saturated... you have to do better than your competitors. This is the logic you apply with "getting better at texting". And you are obviously right.

That said, I am more of the strategy where I prefer just ignoring the saturated market and either opt for a different market, or create one. Applied to pick up, that would be "screw texting" and go for video messages. The results have been mind blowing. My response rate increased with 80% and the flaking got diminished by over 50%.

And the process is so much smoother.

4: There are some average looking dudes out there killing it on Tinder; I am not one of them. I hate online shit. They are dressing very stylish and getting professional pics taken of them doing cool things. They then look up metrics of the best times to message, the best days, the best length of the message, etc. Some of these dudes are getting 40+ lays a year from a combo on Tinder, Bumble, and other swipe apps. The ones that have been doing it for a long while says it’s not ”harder” just takes more upfront effort getting the professional pics and such.


I know some guys are doing better than others on Tinder. But yeah those who do did invest plenty of time and money into it! And hey they deserve the results they get.

That said, I have not heard of anyone truly "killing it" as in getting mad amount of high quality lays.

Also the girls people shag from Tinder seems to be lower end most of the time.

I will also add that it also depends on where you live. In Scandinavia, it was easier to use Tinder because it was a commonly acceptable way of hooking up with strangers. Hot girls were using it, and girls would respond. I had some success with it there, including with some good looking high quality girls (although it was harder to find than IRL).

But in France, it is impossible to meet a chick on Tinder. This is people here are more social... they prefer sit in a terrace and drink with their friend all evening (still wondering how they can afford this). Meeting people online is not a cultural thing here. The chick I see on apps are weirdos, fatties, or trannies.

So gotta keep this in mind.

Best,
Teevs
 

Teevster

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Ricardus welcome back, i have been actively gaming for years, so i game in 3 different generations, so you will have an initial shock factor since you are out and now you are coming back in.....

This... plus the bad momentum and the rustiness he will experience will be tough. But he has been there before, he will get there again. I am not too worried about it.
I am good friends of pure evil he loves you... I got a show him your welcome back post so to see if it motivate him to come back (he won't he is done, even done i keep selling him for a come back)...

Send regards.

The 3-6 women a weekend from night game is over.....

Correct. No more freebies.

It is harder to get the easiest girls. But easier to get the hardest girls. Overall, it is not harder in field... but the entry level is indeed higher. It will, based on this be easier for an experienced guy, and harder for a beginner.

The 3-6 women a weekend from night game is over.....

I am still doing fine. What about you? (I did 3 a week end in october, and usually would sit around 2 a week end - this included going out on Thursdays occasionally)


The 3 different types of games have gotten harder for everyone, corona has fucked the whole thing even worst... The main problems in night game is women not coming out, and i was loling at your night game observation welcome to vip clubs are going to be like that so get used to that....

It surely has become more expensive to go out.

I also noticed more VIP crap and so on. Not overwhelming amounts but some. It could be due to clubs' desperate need to make money again (let's face it, covid was hard on them).

Women did go out a lot here when things reopen. However, I noticed that whenever covid numbers got worse, less women would head out. I have also seen a correlation between governmental announcements (usually to announce new restrictions) and less women going out. It takes usually 3 weeks before things get normalized in women's head. But the 3 weeks after a governmental announcement tend to be brutal.

My results went downhill in November (as covid numbers and governmental announcements went up). My results went down, because the the pandemic situation and the governmental announcements would cause a worse men/female ratio in clubs, and we know that this makes the game much harder (men get less hijacked than women... in general).

Main problem with day game is masks, so you need to do aa anxiety drills and learn to deal with masks, online you need to diversify with multiple apps and i would pay like tinder gold...

Well, here, less and less women are wearing masks outside. And as spring approaches (and the Covid numbers go down), even less people will use masks.

I think the reason people in Europe are more willing to throw away the masks is because they have been dealing with the pandemic and restrictions longer than the US with stricter measures. Hence, people are just too fed up with pandemics. They have long passed the point of being hijacked.

I expect to see similar phenomena happening in the US in a few months.

-There is only one gold mind still intact which i recently discover and is believe it or not "latin venues/latin dancing groups etc..." they are behind the times and they are 2010 American clubs...

Funny you mention that. There is a venue I frequent on Thursdays occasionally. It is a gay friendly venue, but weirdly enough, it has been invaded by latinos and brazillians. I have pulled so many hot girls there, and I agree, the vibe is very 2010 - flirty, sexual and "stupid" (in a good way).

(PS I love latin girls)

- social circle

- cross gaming (day, night, online) with a lot grind...

- special events gaming (halloween, new years, st patrick day, 5 the mayo etc..) special events are way more powerful now than back in the days, women seem to come out of hermit status on those special occasions)

- alt lifestyle (swinger/kink community shit)

-You guys with tinder, tinder is the worst imho...(and forget about spam messaging, after 6 messages the systerm will catch on and you are fucked)..... they know all the shit we do...


once you find an angle you will be ok, but the 3 lays a weekend from night/day game cold approach, that was common back then, nah!

You sure you aren't a bit rusty skills (low momentum)? Maybe because you probably went out less during covid, and if I am not mistaken, you are in a relationship and probably going out less/putting in less effort in field. Not blaming you, but I am pretty sure a @Skills you dedicate some hard work and goes in 100% will have good results in nightgame... and wouldn't write these "low momentum" pointers that you just wrote.

Best,
Teevster
 

J Wick

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
723
Reading the contrasting view points of what's possible in game has reminded me of this quote. “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t – you’re right” - Henry Ford

I also don't know how one can argue with MULTIPLE experienced guys who have been in the game for a long time.

I consider my game to be pretty mediocre right now. Yet I can tell that 1/30 is just terrible. Maybe I'm crazy but I think that once I get back into the swing of things and get some more practice in, I could do 1/10 or better, because 4/5 girls I talk to enjoy talking to me.
 

Teevster

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@metalbird

Yes, exactly. This also means that the ratio of single women has gone down due to more time spent in relationships, starting younger.

Personally, I attribute this to the gradual shift away from individualism/liberalism (in USA culture at least, don't know about elsewhere) towards social conservatism, which was massively accelerated by the pandemic.

Reference:

Individual meeting/mating is out-trending, social circle/"arranged" type mating is in-trending.


The ones I know that would have fit that bill aren't putting numbers like that up anymore (even though they could), rather they're more likely to shack up with a main and have threesomes/side stuff here and there.

There are serious benefits to LTRs, a lot of them materially driven. The economy has made dual income increasingly attractive for young people, as rent continues to rise across the US and inflation is STILL outpacing wages. Additionally, couples don't feel pressure to get legally married the way they once did, so there's less financial risk for LTRs for men.

I am not a pro the way these other guys are, but I've been doing this pretty intently for about 10 years, and I definitely had much better success (despite worse fundamentals) when I was starting out.

I think your observations are pretty accurate.


----


@sab

I think it is right to emphasize the economic and social forces in bringing about this reduction of attractive single women available for approaching- exacerbated by the pandemic via online dating apps including sugar babies. Some girls do not want to be approached because of Covid.

I can see this being an issue. This is why I opt for nightgame because those girls who do go to bars and clubs are less worried about covid (since otherwise they wouldn't go to a place with an obviously high risk of contamination).

This fact delayed my return into daygame. But by this spring - and if the predictions surrounding omicron holds true, things will be better by this spring, and I will return to daygame.

(PS January is still the worse pick up month - daygame or night game... FACT).

Best,
Teevster
 

pancakemouse

Space Monkey
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Joined
Dec 21, 2021
Messages
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I don’t keep a spreadsheet like you apparently do but I know I was under 1 in 30 last year for day game. One of my friends is better than me and did extremely well. Some people keep saying that game is harder now but Ohio girls never seemed to get that message because they are out fucking like it’s the end of the world.

I could have seen it wrong but I think @Gunwitch said something about going 1 in 20 in the chat. Maybe he will pop in this thread and clear that up.

@pancakemouse aren’t you the dude that said 1 in 100 were good numbers? Where do you live that women are such frigid insufferable creatures that hate men and sex? I want to never go there.

There was a dude years ago on mpuaforum and rsdnation that was going like 1 in 150 and claiming it was good and that everyone else was simply lying about their stats. Is that you?
I never said that, no. You (and Gunwitch) likely approach only solo girls/seated sets/archetype match/shoot below your SMV level, as stated before. Having daygamed in Columbus and Cincinnati this summer, you're almost 100% running low volume, meaning that you're likely spending the same amount of time per lay as a guy going 1 for 150 anyway.

Also, you say 1/30 is impossible
I never said it was impossible. Yinz need to stop putting words in my mouth.

No one is approaching 30-40 solo tourists a day, by the way. THAT is actually impossible. I know because I live in Miami Beach and I'm lucky to get five a day.

Reading the contrasting view points of what's possible in game has reminded me of this quote. “Whether you think you can, or you think you can’t – you’re right” - Henry Ford

I also don't know how one can argue with MULTIPLE experienced guys who have been in the game for a long time.

I consider my game to be pretty mediocre right now. Yet I can tell that 1/30 is just terrible. Maybe I'm crazy but I think that once I get back into the swing of things and get some more practice in, I could do 1/10 or better, because 4/5 girls I talk to enjoy talking to me.

The reason you think it's terrible is that you've been brainwashed by PUA marketing and inflated statistics.

1/10 in daygame would make you among the top ten best in the world. We'll all be waiting.
 

Skills

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You sure you aren't a bit rusty skills (low momentum)? Maybe because you probably went out less during covid, and if I am not mistaken, you are in a relationship and probably going out less/putting in less effort in field. Not blaming you, but I am pretty sure a @Skills you dedicate some hard work and goes in 100% will have good results in nightgame... and wouldn't write these "low momentum" pointers that you just wrote.

Best,
Teevster

We are saying the same thing, dude less women coming out is not less momentum is a fact, but eventually as ricardous goes out he will make his on opinion that is why the field exists, his question was is game now harder than 10 years ago? the answer is exactly yes on the front end, no on the back end.... (I explained this multiple times)... Main problem women not coming out consistently... can you get laid 3-6 times a month (yes i did it at 46 when i was hunting posted some of the reports in the forum).... as long as women come out, you can not game women if they are not out on the field...
 
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