A tale of 2 naturals, their styles and the women they get

Velasco

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What I was trying to say was that most game is taught from the outside => in, e.g. modelling your voice recording yourself listening back and adjusting, fixing your posture via a mirror or video recording, looking more relaxed via practicing facial expressions in the mirror etc

While I look at game from inside => out, e.g. fix my mindset and attitude: every woman is attracted to me. Just the mental shift alone fixed my voice, my posture and makes me more relaxed.

It is difficult to have a mindset that every girl is attracted to you, when there is zero evidence that this is the case. So by starting off with the fix your fundamentals approach first, and as you start seeing results (more IOIs, girls approaching you, lays), this postive feedback loop will allow you to have attractive mindsets (your brain wants proof, not promises) That's how it works with good looking naturals.
 

Razorjack

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It is difficult to have a mindset that every girl is attracted to you, when there is zero evidence that this is the case. So by starting off with the fix your fundamentals approach first, and as you start seeing results (more IOIs, girls approaching you, lays), this postive feedback loop will allow you to have attractive mindsets (your brain wants proof, not promises) That's how it works with good looking naturals.

Yes, I never said my way was easy, just that it was my way. :)

There's also 2 schools of thought here. One that you mentioned where the brain wants to see evidence.

Then there's the way I do it, my brain doesn't need to see evidence, it knows that it has the ability to manifest, create and succeed in whatever it focuses on.


For example in my mind, I'm a billionaire and a "business celebrity". I have zero evidence to support either of these assertions but my brain is now programmed with manifesting these desires. And it's going on the right direction for both.

Again, I'm not saying this is easy, or will work for everyone, it's just how I do it.
 

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There's also 2 schools of thought here. One that you mentioned where the brain wants to see evidence.

I and @COCPORN analyzed this to death some years ago.

He basically came up with two concepts, the "Winners Perspective" (WP) and "Opposing Force" (OF).

Advice formulated in WP is correct, but potentially not actionable for everybody. I have elaborated on this here:


Naturals and guys with strong fundamentals and little traumatization tend to give advice in WP. Most advanced guys will at least to some extent talk in WP, especially with each other. I find myself doing this quite often and I have to guesstimate what level a student is on before I say something.

For example, some people like you may just change their mindset and their voice will adjust. Other people will need to physically stretch out tension in the diaphragm before the voice will adjust. This is an example of OF, some people may be blocked from utilizing a kind of advice because of lacking fundamentals.

None of this is WRONG, it is just important to note what sort of perspective somebody is talking from, and what level the receiver is on.
 

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Tribal Elder
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This study is also interesting - basically affirmations worked for those who were already confident, but backfired for those with low self-esteem. A clear example of WP at work.

 

BigPapa

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Ok now it feels like we're getting somewhere.

When you're letting them do the talking, what do they talk about?

How are you leading the conversation?

And where are you leading it to?

What information are you trying to find out from them?

They talk about themselves , who they are , what they are doing for a living , stuff like that . I ask her why she is doing that , if she is passionate about what she is doing , what places she would want to visit someday . If i find interesting what they are saying , I just compliment them and start reducing the distance between me and her to build sexual tension , and tell her some stories related to what she was saying .

Like for example how I realized that for me is more important having a great work life balance , rather than having extra money , or how I visited some exotic places , or my favorite story is how i bribed some police officers in Bulgaria with 1 euro and avoided a speed ticket thus , or how I was arguing with the border police in Cuba as they were not allowing me to enter the country to get my next flight ( you arrive on the old airport , and depart from the newer one that is like 2km away ) but eventually for 5 dollars he gave me a VIP ride himself .

From here usually they start braking report and feeling somehow uncomfortable ( i did A/B testing about what stories I say , from really vanilla ones to really cool ones , but i get the same result) , and find the smallest reasons to think that we are not compatible . In some extreme cases , I would say that the sky is blue and she would argue that it is actually green and i am a blind guy ( this is an allegory to have an idea of the idea how stupid the disagreements are ). At some point one girl told me that I am just basically saying that you have more life experience than me , bla bla.

I am progressively mildly escalating sexually when i tell the stories , like touching her waist , shoulder , putting my face very close to hers then pulling back , stuff like that :)

Something wired happens , like getting into a dormant auto rejection and just waiting for the smallest thing to start going into auto rejection , and just feels like a cold war started.

From there on she tries to neg me , etc and i respond by doing the same ( just that in a softer way ) and from there things fell apart .
 
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Velasco

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I get what Razorjack's saying tho. About this "every girl is attracted to me" mindset. He talks about it in teevs thread, how you only need to trigger girls awareness of their attraction for you, which already exists.

And I do this as well. I assume every girl I just met is gonna become obsessed with and want to get fucked by me so badly 24/7, even when there has been ZERO evidence from HER that this is going to be the case. If she's still texting me, that's all the proof I need.

But the reason I have this mindset is because it is supported by reference experience of many times I've banged girls that at first weren't super attracted to me and later on became obsessed with me. It's only a matter of time. And I have the reference experience because of my game, looks and, fundamentals.

If I had started with this mindset that every girl will become obsessed with me, with opposite evidence (every girl instant rejects me, or if I do get laid, I'd get ghosted), I don't see how it's possible to continue believing in something where everything is telling you that that is mindset is bullshit.
 

Rakkum

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This study is also interesting - basically affirmations worked for those who were already confident, but backfired for those with low self-esteem. A clear example of WP at work.

Thanks for posting the link. Is Razorjack talking about affirmations, though? Maybe I get it wrong, but self-statements seem like "telling yourself" versus "making yourself feel/believe" which I assume is a different thing altogether.
 

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Thanks for posting the link. Is Razorjack talking about affirmations, though? Maybe I get it wrong, but self-statements seem like "telling yourself" versus "making yourself feel/believe" which I assume is a different thing altogether.

My point was more an illustration of the concept of how WP has different effects on different groups.
 

Razorjack

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They talk about themselves , who they are , what they are doing for a living , stuff like that . I ask her why she is doing that , if she is passionate about what she is doing , what places she would want to visit someday . If i find interesting what they are saying , I just compliment them and start reducing the distance between me and her to build sexual tension , and tell her some stories related to what she was saying .

Like for example how I realized that for me is more important having a great work life balance , rather than having extra money , or how I visited some exotic places , or my favorite story is how i bribed some police officers in Bulgaria with 1 euro and avoided a speed ticket thus , or how I was arguing with the border police in Cuba as they were not allowing me to enter the country to get my next flight ( you arrive on the old airport , and depart from the newer one that is like 2km away ) but eventually for 5 dollars he gave me a VIP ride himself .

From here usually they start braking report and feeling somehow uncomfortable ( i did A/B testing about what stories I say , from really vanilla ones to really cool ones , but i get the same result) , and find the smallest reasons to think that we are not compatible . In some extreme cases , I would say that the sky is blue and she would argue that it is actually green and i am a blind guy ( this is an allegory to have an idea of the idea how stupid the disagreements are ). At some point one girl told me that I am just basically saying that you have more life experience than me , bla bla.

I am progressively mildly escalating sexually when i tell the stories , like touching her waist , shoulder , putting my face very close to hers then pulling back , stuff like that :)

Something wired happens , like getting into a dormant auto rejection and just waiting for the smallest thing to start going into auto rejection , and just feels like a cold war started

Ah, yes, it's now starting to make sense.

To @Chase : I believe this is a classic case of poor communication skills and lack of empathy.

@BigPapa, I don't say this to be insulting, but most people have too narrow a definition of what communication is. In my experience, the most important thing about communication isn't what you say or how you say it, but what the other person understood. You also seem to lack empathy as you seem to be too focused on what you are doing and the next steps (e.g. build sexual tension) rather than what the girl is feeling and adjusting your "game" from there.

Based on what you wrote, If I were a woman, I would think:

"Just another guy constantly trying to tell me how good his life is and that he is smarter, wealthier, cooler, more experienced and has a more exciting life than everyone else. I could never be in a relationship with a guy that thinks too much about himself. Oh well. Next....."

Now you may or may not actually think this way and it may not have been your intention but I believe this is how you are coming across to these girls.

Let me ask you, what is the purpose of telling all those stories about yourself? What is it that you are trying to achieve?
 
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BigPapa

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Ah, yes, it's now starting to make sense.

To @Chase : I believe this is a classic case of poor communication skills and lack of empathy.

@BigPapa, I don't say this to be insulting, but most people have too narrow a definition of what communication is. In my experience, the most important thing about communication isn't what you say or how you say it, but what the other person understood. You also seem to lack empathy as you seem to be too focused on what you are doing and the next steps (e.g. build sexual tension) rather than what the girl is feeling and adjusting your "game" from there.

Based on what you wrote, If I were a woman, I would think:

"Just another guy constantly trying to tell me how good his life is and that he is smarter, wealthier, cooler, more experienced and has a more exciting life than everyone else. I could never be in a relationship with a guy that thinks too much about himself. Oh well. Next....."

Now you may or may not actually think this way but I believe this is how you are coming across to these girls.

Let me ask you, what is the purpose of telling all those stories about yourself? What is it that you are trying to achieve?

No offence taken mate , at the end of the day you are trying to pinpoint some things that I might be missing , which I appreciate :)

For example :

With the story about Cuba , I usually tell it in the context that is quite a popular place people want to visit , and was just pinpointing that you need to prepare everything very well before arriving there , as you can not withdraw money from your card , or that people will try to rip you for every dollar you have , including the police .

The one with the Bulgarian police , I tell it in the context of her asking me about a moment when I was quite scared , and was just saying that the whole thing happened in the middle of nowhere in the evening with some guys that you did not know if they are actually police officers or some criminals pretending to be the police ( Bulgaria is quite an unsafe country especially if you travel it by car with foreign number plates ) , but was lucky and got away with it .

But maybe you are right , it might be the case that since are not usual things that happen to people , my stories might be perceived as bragging , when actually they are not .

It might be the same case about a rich friend of mine that was playing billiards with his tailored stick from when I was a teenager , instead the basic ones that you would get at the club. After a while I would realize that actually he was just passionate about playing billiards , and i would just take this as bragging as in reality I was and felt poor compared to him , and felt that is unfair that I am poor , while he is rich and that just got lucky .
 
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BigPapa

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@Razorjack actually if I think about it , I usually tell when I am asked what country I would never visit , that I would not visit Columbia because I am afraid I will not come back from there . And when asked why , I would say because of the girls have a an interesting energy .

now thinking about it , it might be a case of entering into auto rejection because the girl likes you and she is not Latina , and start thinking that she does not have a chance with you because you like latinas so much , even though I say it more as a joke than being serious . Especially since she thinks that in reality nothing is stopping me to actually go there whenever I want

if I would not afford to go to Columbia ,they would not take it serious , and thus not go into auto rejection. I used to say this for a couple of years now , but till like 2 years ago I would not afford to actually go there , so girls would not take it seriously and just laugh .

for example with really hot girls I would not go through this , as she has her part of high value guys than me chasing her , most of times way higher value than me, and would just laugh and not take it seriously
 
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Razorjack

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No offence taken mate , at the end of the day you are trying to pinpoint some things that I might be missing , which I appreciate :)

For example :

With the story about Cuba , I usually tell it in the context that is quite a popular place people want to visit , and was just pinpointing that you need to prepare everything very well before arriving there , as you can not withdraw money from your card , or that people will try to rip you for every dollar you have , including the police .

The one with the Bulgarian police , I tell it in the context of her asking me about a moment when I was quite scared , and was just saying that the whole thing happened in the middle of nowhere in the evening with some guys that you did not know if they are actually police officers or some criminals pretending to be the police ( Bulgaria is quite an unsafe country especially if you travel it by car with foreign number plates ) , but was lucky and got away with it .

But maybe you are right , it might be the case that since are not usual things that happen to people , my stories might be perceived as bragging , when actually they are not .

It might be the same case about a rich friend of mine that was playing billiards with his tailored stick from when I was a teenager , instead the basic ones that you would get at the club. After a while I would realize that actually he was just passionate about playing billiards , and i would just take this as bragging as in reality I was and felt poor compared to him , and felt that is unfair that I am poor , while he is rich and that just got lucky .

@BigPapa

I hear what you're saying, this happens unintentionally and I can definitely relate to your situation.

When you're seen as "high value", (and you are) the last thing you should be doing is talking about yourself or your life, with the exception if you are doing it in self-deprecating way. Your focus should be on where she is at emotionally and what she is feeling so you can adapt going forward.

I'll give you one example, when I was out with Teevster in Copenhagen. We went to one of his favorite night clubs full of girls in their 20s. When I go out, I have no issue blowing 100s -1000€ on a night out. I don't do this to show off, but girls can perceive it that way.

There was one hot girl that was saying how I was showing off with all my money and I responded with

"Nah, I'm just lucky. Money is definitely not a measure of a person's value. I actually admire and respect someone who does what they believe in and serves society, like a nurse or teacher, even though they get the shittiest salaries. I think they are so underappreciated, what do you think?"

Her face completely lit up as she went into stories about her opinion. You see the last thing I did was have the focus on me, I sensed (read: empathized with her) that she saw my value as being so far above hers (unattainable) that she was ready to auto-reject me. I needed to raise her value by saying something that would resonate with her situation.

@Razorjack actually if I think about it , I usually tell when I am asked what country I would never visit , that I would not visit Columbia because I am afraid I will not come back from there . And when asked why , I would say because of the girls have a an interesting energy .

now thinking about it , it might be a case of entering into auto rejection because the girl likes you and she is not Latina , and start thinking that she does not have a chance with you because you like latinas so much , even though I say it more as a joke than being serious

This is what I meant about lacking empathy or not being able to read her emotions. This is a skill that can be developed, but you need to spend some time developing it, so you don't end up saying something inappropriate at the wrong time.
 

Velasco

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"Just another guy constantly trying to tell me how good his life is and that he is smarter, wealthier, cooler, more experienced and has a more exciting life than everyone else. I could never be in a relationship with a guy that thinks too much about himself. Oh well. Next....."

Which is why we instead bait girls into talking about all the exciting things about ourselves, while making it seem like we didnt really want to share these things about ourselves. Because we were trying to be seem relatable (which then gets her thinking "hmm what other cool things is he hiding from me") Although, I must admit, I do have a tendency to talk nonstop about how amazing i am :p
 

BigPapa

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This is what I meant about lacking empathy or not being able to read her emotions. This is a skill that can be developed, but you need to spend some time developing it, so you don't end up saying something inappropriate at the wrong time.

Yes , but when you are focused on building value for such a long time , and already have for some time some sort of a routine that is yielding constant results , it is kinda difficult to pinpoint on your own what exactly is not working :)

Many thanks for helping me to pinpoint what was washy washy @Razorjack
 

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I am sure I could talk about the exact same topics without getting any kind of auto-rejection, in fact I have also funny stories from PU-trips to places like Bulgaria.

This is not about value or talking topics, it is probably more about subcommunications and understanding target demographics.

Such things are hard to debug over written communications, but I believe impro-theatre workshops or acting lessons would remedy it. Also studying what different demographics like and dislike.
 

Razorjack

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Yes , but when you are focused on building value for such a long time , and already have for some time some sort of a routine that is yielding constant results , it is kinda difficult to pinpoint on your own what exactly is not working :)

Many thanks for helping me to pinpoint what was washy washy @Razorjack

No worries mate.

On the positive side, you've moved up a level and now have a new set of challenges to work on! :)

EDIT: I forgot to mention that there is a whole bunch more to work on:

For example for girls that you want to have as a girlfriend, you need to treat them like a girlfriend not FWB.
 
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Razorjack

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I am sure I could talk about the exact same topics without getting any kind of auto-rejection, in fact I have also funny stories from PU-trips to places like Bulgaria.

This is not about value or talking topics, it is probably more about subcommunications and understanding target demographics.

Such things are hard to debug over written communications, but I believe impro-theatre workshops or acting lessons would remedy it. Also studying what different demographics like and dislike.

@Carousel

You could be right and I could be totally off base, just I recognized a lot of the reactions he was getting from my own experience.

You just need to keep in mind that girls may perceive a totally different vibe from you than him or me, so that you've never experienced the same issues.
It took me the longest time to fix my issues, because no one on mASF could understand how a girl could have sex with you but didn't want a relationship further down the road. Maybe it's a very rare problem, who knows.

Other than that, totally agree that it's very difficult to debug this over written words on a forum, without seeing the interactions in person. Unfortunately that is all we have to go by and we are dependent on the person describing their problems gives us all the relevant detail. It does happen that guys (including myself) unintentionally leave out some vital detail.
 

Velasco

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It took me the longest time to fix my issues, because no one on mASF could understand how a girl could have sex with you but didn't want a relationship further down the road. Maybe it's a very rare problem, who knows.
Rare maybe back in 2005. Nowadays its commonplace for girls to hookup with guys once but not want to pursue anything beyond that.
 
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