Online & Apps  Are Online Dating and Prostitution "Lame"? (2020)

Chrance

Cro-Magnon Man
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@Truthtomasses i see what you are saying. But that is NOT the point I’ve been trying to make. At this point my character is getting prodded lol (not by you btw) rather than say getting to the heart of what makes online in the same league as in person dating and explaining other phenomena regarding online dating. Yea fml and I keep getting drawn back in this thread (which is my fault) when no one addresses anything, just “you’re kJ” even though I’ve done online dating and “here’s x thing that is more difficult so more legitimate than Y thing” (not a point I’ve been making).

the point is online is NOT pickup or “getting girls” because it does not cover the entire process; it is mid-to-end game pickup. That is it. It is this way by its nature. And it is algorithmic and impersonal by its nature just like paying a prostitute. It is also dissociating socializing and talking to girls (the means) with sex (the end), which I think is wrong and lame. The two go together imo.

alright lol game over for me. I’m out
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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@Truthtomasses i see what you are saying. But that is NOT the point I’ve been trying to make. At this point my character is getting prodded lol (not by you btw) rather than say getting to the heart of what makes online in the same league as in person dating and explaining other phenomena regarding online dating. Yea fml and I keep getting drawn back in this thread (which is my fault) when no one addresses anything, just “you’re kJ” even though I’ve done online dating and “here’s x thing that is more difficult so more legitimate than Y thing” (not a point I’ve been making).

the point is online is NOT pickup or “getting girls” because it does not cover the entire process; it is mid-to-end game pickup. That is it. It is this way by its nature. And it is algorithmic and impersonal by its nature just like paying a prostitute. It is also dissociating socializing and talking to girls (the means) with sex (the end), which I think is wrong and lame. The two go together imo.

alright lol game over for me. I’m out

I think it is a matter of frame and perception. Pickup is a means to getting laid. Online is another means. Online still requires that you know how to chat with girls when you meet them in person and close.
 

Skills

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@Truthtomasses i see what you are saying. But that is NOT the point I’ve been trying to make. At this point my character is getting prodded lol (not by you btw) rather than say getting to the heart of what makes online in the same league as in person dating and explaining other phenomena regarding online dating. Yea fml and I keep getting drawn back in this thread (which is my fault) when no one addresses anything, just “you’re kJ” even though I’ve done online dating and “here’s x thing that is more difficult so more legitimate than Y thing” (not a point I’ve been making).

the point is online is NOT pickup or “getting girls” because it does not cover the entire process; it is mid-to-end game pickup. That is it. It is this way by its nature. And it is algorithmic and impersonal by its nature just like paying a prostitute. It is also dissociating socializing and talking to girls (the means) with sex (the end), which I think is wrong and lame. The two go together imo.

alright lol game over for me. I’m out

i am not saying you are a kj, just when it comes to the online dating is you match = sex point, is kj, that is my point i know you are good at cold approach and have good game, just when it comes to your online opinions context...
 

Skills

Tribal Elder
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Guys i want to clarify the prostitution stuff.... If you are getting girls from seeking arrangement for example who are 8-10, and you manage to bait and switch and then seduce them and fuck them with no money exchange other than the date costs that is game..........

If you get an escort or stripper to have genuine desire for you without exchanging $ = that is game....

other than that i wrote a post in nextasf and in my blog on the case for prostitution:

This is a quote by a seducer that goes by Qlue, that got me thinking about this subject:

LOL at all the puritan thinking in this thread. If something gets you what you want, then that’s all that matters, doesn’t matter if you’re a millionaire, a bum, a lifestyle fashion designer, or whatever. If it gets you laid with your personal 10 and you’re enjoying your life, then you’re successful. Anything beyond that is mental masturbation and dick measuring.
If a few million dollars fell in my lap right now and I were single, I’d probably go to escorts every week for the rest of my life and would never again worry about game unless I had a desire for something more than sex.”


This is another quote by a seducer named Blackdragon under the blog the 4 way men get sex – pros and cons



Option 3: Have sex with hookers

This is an option chosen by a smaller segment of the male population who have higher incomes (or more disposable income), and who also don’t mind wearing condoms every time they have sex. Under option 3, you get the freedom of the player but without having to spend all the time, work, and effort. Paying sugar babies for sex is also a variation of option 3.

The downsides? Beyond the obvious ones of condoms and being aware of STDs (at least in areas of the world where this is a problem with hookers), it also costs a hell of a lot more money than the player, who can often get laid for free or close to it. However, men with higher incomes may not consider this a negative, since they make so much money they don’t care or even notice the expense.

Another problem is that option 3 probably is the least societally acceptable option for men getting sex of all four options. You’re probably not going to be able to tell your family and co-workers about how you get laid, or if you do, you’ll have to be somewhat careful and covert about it. It’s true that this stigma against having sex with prostitutes is less in some cultures than in others, but you know what I mean.

Lastly, the man who chooses option 3 will, like the player, eventually feel unfulfilled with this option in the long-term unless he’s an unusual exception to the rule.


Some seducers like Pureevil, me, Gunwitch have also mentioned how in some cases is more efficient to money max vs hunting, if is feasible (please don’t troll or take shit out of context, pure economics). In before, the nitpickers on what the community is coming too, fuck off!.

Anyways, the point is that lets say your a high roller stock broker/realtor or ___________________, super busy, working a lot making deals that make you x amount of money and you do not have time to constantly hunt for Pussy, plus you have an absolute advantage money maxing vs. hunting, in before you say is an excuse not to hunt (I am the cheapest player in the community and i have been hunting and seducing almost none stop all my life since 15, so fuck off)…

Now that we got that out of the way, some dudes like my seducer friend named Tank are on the process of giving up or about to give up due to all the effort they make at seduction with limited success… Again using my seducer friend Tank as an example in one post he mentioned expending 3k on coaching a month.(waste of money if you ask me).

So my take if you are over 75k and your debt to income ratio (total of monthly debts divided by monthly income is under 38%, why not) ok, for the guys to slow in math 6280 GROSS AND ALL DEBTS and savings less than 2375, again then why not…

If you are in a sexless marriage, your wife does not do it for you anymore etc… and you do not want to hurt the wife, then instead of having her take you to the cleaners by your cheating, this would be another alternative (better and cheaper than divorce and less drama than cheating).

Here is a dude making an argument for prostitution, I do not agree 100% with it (most of what he describes does not apply to players for example players don’t spend money on dates, specially $400 dollars like he says in the essay), but very interesting:

Are Prostitutes Better Than Normal Women?

A Short Essay by John Doe

Is it cheaper to have sex with normal women than with prostitutes? No, and here is why.

When you have sex with a normal girl, it’s by no means “free”. You have to take her out to dinner, buy her drinks, and you might have to go on two or even three dates before you will have sex with her. If you add up the total costs of these three dates, it would be approxiately around 400 dollars.

Now let’s look at the cost of the average high quality prostitute. You can bang a prostitute for 2 hours for 250 dollars.

What are the benefits of using prostitutes instead of dating normal women?

1. The average prostitute is far hotter than the average normal woman you can date.

2. YOU get to do the choosing, and the power of choice is in YOUR hands, instead of in the woman’s hands

3. With a prostitute, you have sex with her and that’s it. No emotional drama, no mind games, no bullshit, like there is with normal women.

4. You don’t have to waste hours of your valuable time that you could otherwise spend on making money, taking women out on dates or trying to pick up women in bars and clubs. No, instead you pay a prostitute for one or two hours of her time, have sex with her, and leave.

5. You choose WHEN you want to have sex. So let’s say you’re a busy businessman, instead of wasting 5 hours at a bar or on a date, instead you’d spend only one or two hours with a prostitute, and that at your convience too. YOU are the one who chooses WHEN, and so you save a LOT of time.

6. Prostites are DEFINITELY cheaper than getting married. Overall, through a 10 year marriage and divorce, you’d end up spending at least 250,000 dollars. Now let’s take that number and divide it by 250 dollars, which is the average price of a high quality prostitute in a Western country. That is sex with 1000 different high quality prostitutes. Now if you talk to any married man, who is HONEST, he will admit that sex with the wife after the first 6 months or year starts to get boring. And this is why people in long term relationships barely have sex, because it’s BORING having sex with the same person time after time. Variety is the spice of life! You could have sex with 1000 different women for the same price it would cost to marry one woman and have sex with her. And considering how unstable most western women are nowadays, the chance of divorce is around 60%, with the woman initiating the divorce 90% of the time. You are likely to lose at least 50% of your assets and savings in a divorce, and so marriage to a western woman may end up costing you up to 500,000 dollars or even a million dollars, once you add in the divorce costs and long term child payment and alimony costs.

So let’s take that number, one million dollars, and divide it by 250. That’s 4000 DIFFERENT women you could pay to have sex with, instead of marrying one woman who will just end up turning into a bitch and divorcing you anyway. So it’s your choice guys. Would you rather marry one woman, who will get bored of sex after 6 months, and end up stealing all your assets and savings in divorce, or would you rather have sex with 4000 different beautiful women for the same price?

Another very relevant point is that the world of modern dating has become quite risky. Most women see nothing wrong with making a false rape accusation against a man. Most rape cases are fake and are done out of a motive of REVENGE by the woman. Did you break up with your girlfriend? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you just to get revenge. Did you cheat on your girl with another girl? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation just to get revenge on you. Forgot to tell your girlfriend “happy birthday”? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you in order to get revenge on you. At least 90% of rape cases are FALSE, the sex was CONSENSUAL and the woman later changed her mind AFTER the act and decided “oh it was rape”. LOL. And this is why the police no longer take rape cases seriously, because literally 90% of women who claim to have been raped are LYING!

So that is another HUGE benefit of prostitues. A prostitute won’t make a false rape accusation against you.

What’s another GREAT reason that men choose to use prostitutes? Because by paying for sex, they can have sex with a MUCH hotter quality of woman than they would normally. For example, if we rate women on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of beauty. The average guy will be able to pick up and have sex with a 4 or a 5 from a bar, a club, or Tinder. Meanwhile, if the same man paid for sex with a high quality prostitute for $250 dollars (about the same amount of money he would spend picking up a 4 or 5 from a bar, club, or Tinder), the prostitute he would have sex with would be an 8 or 9 on the beauty scale. So for the same amount of money, he can have sex with a much hotter woman, and with much less effort too. Think about all the effort you have to put in to go to a bar or club. You have to buy good clothes, you have to spend lots of money on drinks and food, and also have to spend a lot of money on making sure your apartment is cool and stylish so the girl will feel comfortable there. So unless you’re a man who was blessed with the looks of Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise and have women chasing after you, the easiest and cheapest option for most men to have sex with the hottest quality of women is to simply PAY for sex with a hot prostitute. One guy was asked why he paid to have sex with prostitutes and his reply was “If I’m being brutally honest, the hottest women I’ve ever had sex with have been prostitutes … I would never be able to have sex with women who are ridiculously hot unless they were prostitutes.” I can also personally testify to this point. The types of chicks I was getting from Tinder were mostly fat or at best mildly hot, I would have rated them between a 3 and a 6 on the attraction scale. Then the first time I went to a prostitute, I was blown away with the options and the QUALITY too. Here were super hot girls who I could bang for such a cheap price. Needless to say, I gave up on dating and ONLY bang prostitutes now. I’m a much happier and peaceful person as a result.

Another couple of reasons that men gave as to why they choose to have sex with prostitutes are:

“Getting a prostitute is so easy: no strings attached, you can choose the woman you want before you purchase, then they arrive at your door. Couldn’t be easier.”

I can also testify to this. Getting a normal girl to have sex is a real pain in the ass and involves so much struggle, drama, and mind games. Then of course after you have sex with her, you have to deal with her stalking you, calling you so many times, and with her unrealistic expectation that you are going to have a committed and exclusively relationship with her. All that compared with the EASE of banging a hot prostitute, and the choice is simple. I chose to not waste time trying to date women anymore and only bang hot prostitutes now.

“We want to have sex without all the bullshit of pretending to be really interested in a girl. When you pay for sex, you don’t have to swap numbers at the end when you know you won’t call. You pay, have sex, she leaves. Everyone’s happy.”

This goes along with the above point. With normal women and dating, you have to PRETEND to care about her and PRETEND to be interested in her, when in reality all you want is to have sex with her. With a prostitute, there is no pretensions and that really is a beautiful thing because ultimately then sex becomes about the raw physical act as well as the pure attractiveness of the woman, and thus you are able to enjoy sex a lot more.

Lastly, let’s touch on the issue of legalization. On average surveys, 70 percent of men said they would vote to legalize prostitution, meanwhile 60 percent of women said they would vote to keep prostitution illegal. Now it’s pretty obvious why women want to keep prostitution illegal. Women use sex as a weapon to control men. So it would disrupt the economics of women’s control over sex if prostitution was legalized, because then MEN would have control over WHO they want to have sex with and WHEN. Forget all those arguments about morality, the REAL reason women want to keep prostitution illegal is so that they can CONTINUE to control men with sex. In effect, women are like a mafia that is desperate to keep control of the sexual marketplace. If prostitution was legal, men would be a lot less inclined to put up with women’s bullshit just to get sex from them, when they can go pay for sex from a much more attractive woman and without all the hassles and drama that dating and normal women bring.

What about STDs some of you might say? Well the whole STD scare is mostly a MYTH that has been blown way out of proportion by feminists and conservative religious leaders in order to scare men away from having sex. In reality, the rate of transmission of AIDS is 1 out of 700 during heterosexual sex. That is, if a man had penis to vagina intercourse with an AIDS-infected woman, it would take 700 times on average before he would contract it. The only way people get AIDS is through using needles to inject drugs, or having anal sex, especially with homosexuals. So the whole AIDS thing is a huge scare, a MYTH, that has been blown way out of proportion.

What about Herpes? Well studies show that 80% of the US population already has Herpes in one of it’s forms, so that is not really an issue.

The only other STD that you would have to worry about is Chlamydia, and it can be easily cured within 3 days with antibiotics.

Now, that is UNPROTECTED sex. If you are using condoms to have sex with, then the chances of getting any of these STDs becomes less than zero. And that includes oral sex as well. Most prostitutes will insist that you always use a condom, even during oral sex. So as long as you are using condoms, then STDs are nothing you should even remotely worry about.

So what are some of the main reasons why prostitution should be legalized?

1. If prostitution was legal, it would reduce the STD transmission rate by about 50% amongst prostitutes.

2. If prostitution was legal, it would reduce rape by at least 150%.
Many studies have shown that legal prostitution reduces rape, sexual assault, and other sex crimes by a lot. The same studies have shown that legal prostitution reduces the STD rate amongst the general population by about 50%.

3. The real number of human trafficking victims in the prostitution industry is actually less than 5%. But if prostitution was fully legal, the tiny number of women who are forced into prostitution involuntarily would be able to go to the poliec to get help and escape from their pimps. Keeping prostitution illegal hurts prostitutes the most, so it’s funny how feminists want to keep prostitution illegal and yet at the same time claim they care about women’s health and women’s rights. Feminism is nothing but the biggest pile of bullshit hypocrisy the world has ever seen.

4. Feminists say “my body, my choice”. So if 95% of prostitutes are VOLUNTARILY engaging in prostitution, then why should those women have the RIGHT to choose what to do with their own bodies, even if that includes trading sex for money? What right does the government or anyone else have to tell two consenting adults that they cannot exchange money for sex?

5. It would save a lot of money and resources from our police and government. Tens of millions of dollars a year are wasted by our police and government arresting and putting prostitutes in jail. If prostitution was LEGAL, on the other hand, and taxed and regulated, it would bring in tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars a year in tax revenue for our government, as well as freeing up valuable police time for REAL crimes like rape, theft, murder, assault, etc.

6. If prostitution was legal, prostitutes would have legal rights and would not longer get taken advantage of by pimps and other shady figures, including corrupt police officers. Yes, the police also contribute to the oppression of prostitutes because there are many corrupt police officers out there who blackmail and extort prostitutes for money and/or sexual favors. If prostitution was legal, all of this would end and prostitutes would finally have legal rights.

7. Prostitution is the world’s oldest profession. It is NEVER going to stop no matter how much the police or government tries to stop it. There are ALWAYS going to be men who are willing to pay money for sex, and there are ALWAYS going to be women who are willing to give sex to men for money. Prostitution has also been an integral part of many cultures and thus trying to stop it is literally impossible. And why should it be stopped? No one has the right to tell two consenting adults that they cannot exchange money for sex. So rather than waste time trying to stop it, just legalize it and tax it, the same way we do with cigarettes, alcohol, and now marijuana.

All in all, I believe in personal freedom. I believe that no one has the right to force their own sense of morality onto others. In some very ancient cultures, prostitutes were actually given very high status in society and considered as spiritual people who could heal men of their problems through sex. That was thousands of years ago though, before self-righteous modern western religions were invented and started violently forcing their concepts of morality onto people. Funny how societies that were thousands of years old were actually far more advanced than we are in the modern age in terms of sex and prostitutes.

It took almost a century for people to wake up and legalize marijuana, which is a completely harmless natural plant that hurts no one. In the same way, society and people in general have to EVOLVE and realize that they have no right to force their own sense of morality or control onto others. The modern society is actually a very sexually restrictive society, compared to cultures and civilizations of the past. And it’s this sexual restrictiveness which contributes to so much psychological neurosis, sex crimes, and frustration in general. Is it a coincidence how people in America are so quick to anger and lose their temper, whereas in a place like Thailand where prostitution is legal and accepted, people are very laid back and cool headed? People need to stop seeing sex as such a big thing, and just realize that sex is a normal and acceptable part of life.

With that said, I believe that I have covered all the points as to why prostitution should be legal and an accepted part of society, and so this essay comes to a close. Please feel free to copy, paste, and distribute this essay as my goal is to influence and educate as many people as possible, the only thing I ask is that you do not change it or edit it in any way whatsoever. Thank you very much

Sincerely,

John Doe
 

Chrance

Cro-Magnon Man
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Pickup is a means to getting laid. Online is another means.

i agree here. Prostitution is also a means. There are many. But some make one a seducer/pua/player/good-with-chicks and some do not. Online and prostitution do not. This is because they skip to middle or end game pick up by going around the portion where interest and motives are discovered, influenced, etc (A1-A3 in mystery terms). This portion is equivalent to paddling out in surfing. If you’re not going through those phases, you’re not experiencing the whole process, so no need to imply you’re much better than a John at getting chicks. Just like a guy who can’t paddle out isn’t much of a surfer.

Online still requires that you know how to chat with girls when you meet them in person and close.

This is mid to end game pickup, not the whole thing. In this way, yes there is some seduction, which gives the impression that you’re truly doing a pickup. But it is a false impression since the initial phases were still skipped, a sort of “half win” so to speak, better than nothing depending on your goals.
 
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Velasco

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Here is a dude making an argument for prostitution, I do not agree 100% with it (most of what he describes does not apply to players for example players don’t spend money on dates, specially $400 dollars like he says in the essay), but very interesting:
really? I disagree with all of it

Is it cheaper to have sex with normal women than with prostitutes? No, and here is why.

When you have sex with a normal girl, it’s by no means “free”. You have to take her out to dinner, buy her drinks, and you might have to go on two or even three dates before you will have sex with her. If you add up the total costs of these three dates, it would be approxiately around 400 dollars.


we both agree, that this doesn't apply to players.

What are the benefits of using prostitutes instead of dating normal women?

1. The average prostitute is far hotter than the average normal woman you can date.


average prostitute is maybe hotter than average girl (5-6), however the average prostitute (fake tits/ass, tattoos, average face, heavy makeup) is not hotter than you're average hot girl. the kind of girl, players are interested in.

2. YOU get to do the choosing, and the power of choice is in YOUR hands, instead of in the woman’s hands

in both situations (prostitute VS normal girl) you are influencing her decision to choose you. One is through game (normal girl). the other is through money (you think you (an AFC) can choose the prostitute to fuck you without paying?)

3. With a prostitute, you have sex with her and that’s it. No emotional drama, no mind games, no bullshit, like there is with normal women.

Apparently john doe doesn't have game to know that you can actually be with a normal girl without much if any drama or bullshit too.

4. You don’t have to waste hours of your valuable time that you could otherwise spend on making money, taking women out on dates or trying to pick up women in bars and clubs. No, instead you pay a prostitute for one or two hours of her time, have sex with her, and leave.
5. You choose WHEN you want to have sex. So let’s say you’re a busy businessman, instead of wasting 5 hours at a bar or on a date, instead you’d spend only one or two hours with a prostitute, and that at your convience too. YOU are the one who chooses WHEN, and so you save a LOT of time.


First its not "valuable time wasted" because its a hobby. again, you don't need to take women on dates if you don't want to. and third, many players, me included want to be with a girl for longer than 1 or 2 hours, because we actually like girls and want to spend time with them. Don't feel like we are rushed to perform. "whoops! times up, honey". "But I want to have more of the sex" "well that's gonna cost you X more" - fuck that!

6. Prostites are DEFINITELY cheaper than getting married. Overall, through a 10 year marriage and divorce, you’d end up spending at least 250,000 dollars. Now let’s take that number and divide it by 250 dollars, which is the average price of a high quality prostitute in a Western country. That is sex with 1000 different high quality prostitutes. Now if you talk to any married man, who is HONEST, he will admit that sex with the wife after the first 6 months or year starts to get boring. And this is why people in long term relationships barely have sex, because it’s BORING having sex with the same person time after time. Variety is the spice of life! You could have sex with 1000 different women for the same price it would cost to marry one woman and have sex with her. And considering how unstable most western women are nowadays, the chance of divorce is around 60%, with the woman initiating the divorce 90% of the time. You are likely to lose at least 50% of your assets and savings in a divorce, and so marriage to a western woman may end up costing you up to 500,000 dollars or even a million dollars, once you add in the divorce costs and long term child payment and alimony costs.

John doe is assuming the guy getting married didn't screen his girl for LTR, and got divorced and now paying child support. I also don't know if the average price of a high quality prositute is $250 (someone look it up, i'm too lazy), but yeah I agree. sex with only one girl does get boring. good thing you didn't get legally married, and have the ability to fuck new girls, when you want.

So let’s take that number, one million dollars, and divide it by 250. That’s 4000 DIFFERENT women you could pay to have sex with, instead of marrying one woman who will just end up turning into a bitch and divorcing you anyway. So it’s your choice guys. Would you rather marry one woman, who will get bored of sex after 6 months, and end up stealing all your assets and savings in divorce, or would you rather have sex with 4000 different beautiful women for the same price?

again he assumes the girl you screened for LTR will just turn into a bitch and divorce you and steal all your money. Fucking chode. And then presents it as false dichotomy situation. Either you marry one girl or you pay prostitutes? There really are no other options???

Another very relevant point is that the world of modern dating has become quite risky. Most women see nothing wrong with making a false rape accusation against a man. Most rape cases are fake and are done out of a motive of REVENGE by the woman. Did you break up with your girlfriend? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you just to get revenge. Did you cheat on your girl with another girl? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation just to get revenge on you. Forgot to tell your girlfriend “happy birthday”? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you in order to get revenge on you. At least 90% of rape cases are FALSE, the sex was CONSENSUAL and the woman later changed her mind AFTER the act and decided “oh it was rape”. LOL. And this is why the police no longer take rape cases seriously, because literally 90% of women who claim to have been raped are LYING!

This guy is living in fear, and wants you to live in fear as well. And if he says the police don't take rape cases seriously, then what the fuck is there to worry about?? lol. but no, I (I don't know about you Skills (not your friend, Skills. I'm talking specifically about you), have never been falsely accused of rape, after 5 years in the game. Zero fear.

What’s another GREAT reason that men choose to use prostitutes? Because by paying for sex, they can have sex with a MUCH hotter quality of woman than they would normally. For example, if we rate women on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of beauty. The average guy will be able to pick up and have sex with a 4 or a 5 from a bar, a club, or Tinder.

Projecting

One guy was asked why he paid to have sex with prostitutes and his reply was “If I’m being brutally honest, the hottest women I’ve ever had sex with have been prostitutes … I would never be able to have sex with women who are ridiculously hot unless they were prostitutes.” I can also personally testify to this point. The types of chicks I was getting from Tinder were mostly fat or at best mildly hot, I would have rated them between a 3 and a 6 on the attraction scale.

no one would describe a 5 as "mildly hot". Guarantee this guy is an ugly fat dork with shit fundamentals. So really none of this garbage should apply to true players.
 

Velasco

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This is because they skip to middle or end game pick up by going around the portion where interest and motives are discovered, influenced, etc (A1-A3 in mystery terms)
A1 = His profile pics + bio
A2 = Her swiping right (attraction is there or it isn't. Here he is relying on his looks+fundamentals+witty profile to get her to swipe right. Some guys may also use social proof by including male or female friends in their pics for additional A2.
A3 = Him either amplifying A2 (by throwing a joke opener or passing her shit test opener) or qualifying her like in the example I video I shared on the previous page

You need more than just A2 to get laid. Online or in real life.
 

Chrance

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A1 = His profile pics + bio
A2 = Her swiping right (attraction is there or it isn't. Here he is relying on his looks+fundamentals+witty profile to get her to swipe right. Some guys may also use social proof by including male or female friends in their pics for additional A2.
A3 = Him either amplifying A2 (by throwing a joke opener or passing her shit test opener) or qualifying her like in the example I video I shared on the previous page

All of this is gamed through better photos, better bio, better more stimulating messages, literally like a video game. Getting better photos, tailoring your bio (the things your doing to get through these phases) aren’t actually reflective of you, just like the actions of a character in a video game aren’t really your actions. Your actual vibe and presence isn’t there in the A1-A3 so on the one hand yes, you are satisfying the phases (it needs to happen otherwise there’d be no reason for her to meet up!) but on the other hand how you satisfy them (better photos, better bio, better messages) boils down to research and aping others bio and messages. Think of those catfish girls. Guys get gamed by the online profile and messages not actually by whoever’s behind the screen. This makes things easier from the catfishers perspective, but it doesn’t actually make her a babe or good-with-guys lol (not sure of the female word). Who you are doesn’t matter in online dating. You are literally a variant of a catfisher.

the a1-a3 need to be satisfied (she has to have a reason to go out to meet after all), but you aren’t actually satisfying them. The impressions through the screen (via photos, messages, bio) are, hence easily gamed through silly tweaks I find debasing

notice guys talk about not including height? A girl can see your height in person. Why hide it online? Because she’s not seeing you, she’s seeing some bits you need to manipulate and her imagination does the rest (and lol how low is it to hide your height or whatever just to come off as more attractive through a screen). On online dating you’re forced to hide critical information all for a false impression. Using old younger photos rather than new ones, using certain types of photos over others to show you’re cooler than you really are blah blah blah

also, think of those experiments where guys make fake photos to see what will happen. That is pretty much what you’re doing in online dating except minimizing the dishonesty so that things are as congruent as possible when u meet in person to avoid true catfishing.

Since you aren’t actually satisfying those initial phases, there is no pressure or stress. You can take your time and think of clever responses, all false impressions. This makes online dating more accessible. Anybody can catfish lol. Anybody can tweak their shit to satisfy a1-a3. A 0 can tweak herself to a 7! No surprise when the girls don’t look like they do online. They’re catfishing too!

cool note:
False impressions in actual pickup get punished quickly - like saying a line half heartedly or acting incongruent

another note:
I think the inherent dishonest nature of online contributes to me hating it. I am forced to be a liar by having to tweak a bio, not include everything (impossible btw), tweak photos or choose certain photos over others for a better false impression (all online impressions are false because the viewer is interpreting pixels and words through their imagination)

final note:
Holy shit!!! It took me this long to realize why I think online dating is sooo lame. It is, by its nature, dishonest and lying via withholding and tweaking images, bios and messages; whereas in person meets are not inherently this way, though they can be! You are literally playing the role of a catfisher by nature through online dating. See, this thread wasn’t for nothing lol. Even worse, you are acting dishonestly via false impressions on a screen in order to get to the easiest parts of the seduction process. So lame!! Lying your way to the smooth ride (Mid and end game) lol. But in real pickup you get punished for acting fake quickly; in online you get to avoid all of that; a guy who is good at minuplation in person gets respect because of the real-time responses, adaptation and difficulty of it; online manipulation gets none since no risk!
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
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really? I disagree with all of it

Is it cheaper to have sex with normal women than with prostitutes? No, and here is why.

When you have sex with a normal girl, it’s by no means “free”. You have to take her out to dinner, buy her drinks, and you might have to go on two or even three dates before you will have sex with her. If you add up the total costs of these three dates, it would be approxiately around 400 dollars.


we both agree, that this doesn't apply to players.

What are the benefits of using prostitutes instead of dating normal women?

1. The average prostitute is far hotter than the average normal woman you can date.


average prostitute is maybe hotter than average girl (5-6), however the average prostitute (fake tits/ass, tattoos, average face, heavy makeup) is not hotter than you're average hot girl. the kind of girl, players are interested in.

2. YOU get to do the choosing, and the power of choice is in YOUR hands, instead of in the woman’s hands

in both situations (prostitute VS normal girl) you are influencing her decision to choose you. One is through game (normal girl). the other is through money (you think you (an AFC) can choose the prostitute to fuck you without paying?)

3. With a prostitute, you have sex with her and that’s it. No emotional drama, no mind games, no bullshit, like there is with normal women.

Apparently john doe doesn't have game to know that you can actually be with a normal girl without much if any drama or bullshit too.

4. You don’t have to waste hours of your valuable time that you could otherwise spend on making money, taking women out on dates or trying to pick up women in bars and clubs. No, instead you pay a prostitute for one or two hours of her time, have sex with her, and leave.
5. You choose WHEN you want to have sex. So let’s say you’re a busy businessman, instead of wasting 5 hours at a bar or on a date, instead you’d spend only one or two hours with a prostitute, and that at your convience too. YOU are the one who chooses WHEN, and so you save a LOT of time.


First its not "valuable time wasted" because its a hobby. again, you don't need to take women on dates if you don't want to. and third, many players, me included want to be with a girl for longer than 1 or 2 hours, because we actually like girls and want to spend time with them. Don't feel like we are rushed to perform. "whoops! times up, honey". "But I want to have more of the sex" "well that's gonna cost you X more" - fuck that!

6. Prostites are DEFINITELY cheaper than getting married. Overall, through a 10 year marriage and divorce, you’d end up spending at least 250,000 dollars. Now let’s take that number and divide it by 250 dollars, which is the average price of a high quality prostitute in a Western country. That is sex with 1000 different high quality prostitutes. Now if you talk to any married man, who is HONEST, he will admit that sex with the wife after the first 6 months or year starts to get boring. And this is why people in long term relationships barely have sex, because it’s BORING having sex with the same person time after time. Variety is the spice of life! You could have sex with 1000 different women for the same price it would cost to marry one woman and have sex with her. And considering how unstable most western women are nowadays, the chance of divorce is around 60%, with the woman initiating the divorce 90% of the time. You are likely to lose at least 50% of your assets and savings in a divorce, and so marriage to a western woman may end up costing you up to 500,000 dollars or even a million dollars, once you add in the divorce costs and long term child payment and alimony costs.

John doe is assuming the guy getting married didn't screen his girl for LTR, and got divorced and now paying child support. I also don't know if the average price of a high quality prositute is $250 (someone look it up, i'm too lazy), but yeah I agree. sex with only one girl does get boring. good thing you didn't get legally married, and have the ability to fuck new girls, when you want.

So let’s take that number, one million dollars, and divide it by 250. That’s 4000 DIFFERENT women you could pay to have sex with, instead of marrying one woman who will just end up turning into a bitch and divorcing you anyway. So it’s your choice guys. Would you rather marry one woman, who will get bored of sex after 6 months, and end up stealing all your assets and savings in divorce, or would you rather have sex with 4000 different beautiful women for the same price?

again he assumes the girl you screened for LTR will just turn into a bitch and divorce you and steal all your money. Fucking chode. And then presents it as false dichotomy situation. Either you marry one girl or you pay prostitutes? There really are no other options???

Another very relevant point is that the world of modern dating has become quite risky. Most women see nothing wrong with making a false rape accusation against a man. Most rape cases are fake and are done out of a motive of REVENGE by the woman. Did you break up with your girlfriend? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you just to get revenge. Did you cheat on your girl with another girl? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation just to get revenge on you. Forgot to tell your girlfriend “happy birthday”? Watch out, she might make a false rape accusation against you in order to get revenge on you. At least 90% of rape cases are FALSE, the sex was CONSENSUAL and the woman later changed her mind AFTER the act and decided “oh it was rape”. LOL. And this is why the police no longer take rape cases seriously, because literally 90% of women who claim to have been raped are LYING!

This guy is living in fear, and wants you to live in fear as well. And if he says the police don't take rape cases seriously, then what the fuck is there to worry about?? lol. but no, I (I don't know about you Skills (not your friend, Skills. I'm talking specifically about you), have never been falsely accused of rape, after 5 years in the game. Zero fear.

What’s another GREAT reason that men choose to use prostitutes? Because by paying for sex, they can have sex with a MUCH hotter quality of woman than they would normally. For example, if we rate women on a scale of 1 to 10 in terms of beauty. The average guy will be able to pick up and have sex with a 4 or a 5 from a bar, a club, or Tinder.

Projecting

One guy was asked why he paid to have sex with prostitutes and his reply was “If I’m being brutally honest, the hottest women I’ve ever had sex with have been prostitutes … I would never be able to have sex with women who are ridiculously hot unless they were prostitutes.” I can also personally testify to this point. The types of chicks I was getting from Tinder were mostly fat or at best mildly hot, I would have rated them between a 3 and a 6 on the attraction scale.

no one would describe a 5 as "mildly hot". Guarantee this guy is an ugly fat dork with shit fundamentals. So really none of this garbage should apply to true players.


^ yes! i agree with most of these points, i also put a video against all the arguments from john doe (incel), but youtube took it out.. Pretty much saying similar to the above... i never been accused of rape either (i have been in the game 20 years)...
 

Indian Race Troll (IRT)

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i agree here. Prostitution is also a means. There are many. But some make one a seducer/pua/player/good-with-chicks and some do not. Online and prostitution do not. This is because they skip to middle or end game pick up by going around the portion where interest and motives are discovered, influenced, etc (A1-A3 in mystery terms). This portion is equivalent to paddling out in surfing. If you’re not going through those phases, you’re not experiencing the whole process, so no need to imply you’re much better than a John at getting chicks. Just like a guy who can’t paddle out isn’t much of a surfer.


This is mid to end game pickup, not the whole thing. In this way, yes there is some seduction, which gives the impression that you’re truly doing a pickup. But it is a false impression since the initial phases were still skipped, a sort of “half win” so to speak, better than nothing depending on your goals.

Wrong, prostitution and online are not the same thing. Online game is legitimate seduction, you need to make yourself attractive through photos and give off a vibe in your pics that is attractive enough for women to want to match with you. You need text game to convince them to meet up among many options. You need to be able to close as well and see where interest is. If you show up a slob or not on point, women reject you.

Online is a legitimate means that requires skills to get laid. This is not exclusively a pickup forum, it is a seduction forum, online game is seduction. You have to generate interest, keep it, and still escalate.

Not sure what is getting lost in translation here.
 

Chrance

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Wrong, prostitution and online are not the same thing. Online game is legitimate seduction, you need to make yourself attractive through photos and give off a vibe in your pics that is attractive enough for women to want to match with you. You need text game to convince them to meet up among many options. You need to be able to close as well and see where interest is. If you show up a slob or not on point, women reject you.

Online is a legitimate means that requires skills to get laid. This is not exclusively a pickup forum, it is a seduction forum, online game is seduction. You have to generate interest, keep it, and still escalate.

Not sure what is getting lost in translation here.

you generate interest through a virtual online avatar. This is not you, it is pixels on a screen. Not sure how you’re conflating an online profile and texts with your actual physical self.

it is mid-to-end game seduction. I’m not saying there is literally 0 seducing.

also I’m not saying online and prostitution are equal, but that they fall in the category of not total or complete (ie real) pickup. You might as well treat them equally though since the process you go through in online is imo more fake and lame than paying a prostitute all for a similar result (there are exceptions for sure though).
 
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Bacchus

Tribal Elder
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Messages
775
Wrong, prostitution and online are not the same thing. Online game is legitimate seduction, you need to make yourself attractive through photos and give off a vibe in your pics that is attractive enough for women to want to match with you. You need text game to convince them to meet up among many options. You need to be able to close as well and see where interest is. If you show up a slob or not on point, women reject you.

Online is a legitimate means that requires skills to get laid. This is not exclusively a pickup forum, it is a seduction forum, online game is seduction. You have to generate interest, keep it, and still escalate.

Not sure what is getting lost in translation here.

Just a tiny bit of semantics.

Replace the words pickup and seduction with each other in your post. . . and I agree with points you made. Most of the disagreements here can be solved be in a straight-forward way after reading the article linked above. I'm also sure most of guys here would agree. . . that online game isn't as good a battlefield as day or night game. Although this is a point that may be up for debate now. . . due to the effects of COVID across all playing fields.

However, this thread has been going round in circles for pages and pages. I think its time to put those egos aside. . . and either find ways to agree. Or simply agree to disagree. The articles I linked are a good place to start. . . if any other member wants to bring value and clarity into this discussion.
 

YS.

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As someone trying to learn online dating this quarantine, I feel real life game is 10x easier than dating apps, lol.

I don't know where swiping is easier notion comes from. Nobody really approaches well anymore so if you can pull off a good CA you have no competition. Girls are very stuck up and have extreme leverage in most dating apps because it's almost impossible to convey your vibe/personality due to them not seeing your eye contact, tonality, vibe, being, etc. It's super hard for me to convey vibe over text, being a terrible text-er most of my life. My game revolves around doing ZERO text-game.

OD is most definitely a skill and honestly much harder to pull off than CA for the really hot chicks due to its environment.

Off the top of my head, shit that I've been trying to learn:
  1. Having a nice profile set up.
  2. Calibrating the optics of the profile. Picking archetypes and avatars.
  3. Conveying vibe over text.
  4. Calibrating over text. (So easy to calibrate IRL but so hard over text for me.)
  5. Getting interest/comfort over text or digital means. Learning how to do it well.
  6. Screening over text.
  7. Emotional control and process of online dating.
  8. Managing expectations.
  9. Getting used to the power dynamics of OD.
  10. Whether to attract or screen over text.
  11. The proper vibe of the texting. Depending on different girls/logistics.
  12. Getting the girl to see you.
  13. Putting girls into your other funnels (social media, etc.).
  14. Pulling off the date.
  15. Getting the frequency/process right.
  16. Framing over text.
  17. Balancing too much and too little.
  18. Text timings and having multi-day conversations.

Some might be repetitive but I feel online dating has a massive skillset/learning curve. It has a lower success barrier than most other forms of game (bar social circle) so even if you suck you can get laid. But I've read some @Seppuku 's content and the way he puts on frames over text, uses tech and gets compliance is masterful. How he manages his leads and his discipline of putting in the work is remarkable.

----

Let me analyse this situation from a marketing context.

OG has extremely qualified leads, with very easy access to them. It has OK to bad reach, depending on your profile and the culture of the country. The conversion is quite low (I think Seppeku said 1 out of 3 matches respond to him, let alone having a great interaction.) and the quality of the leads are very inconsistent, but you can indirectly influence it to a point.

DG has extremely unqualified leads but with MASSIVE REACH (basically any girl, ever), lead collection is hard and requires effort (like manual lead gen; FB comment interactions etc.) but the leads you generate are SOLID. Extremely good conversion. Great reach but extremely inconsistent leads. You need to do a lot of prospecting with DG.

NG has mostly qualified leads, much much more than DG but less than a dating app where the entire frame is "HEY, wanna fuck?", reach is low (depending on the city/culture/club, but it's very common to have 3-5 good sets in any given place), conversion is OK to very high depending on your skillset.

OD is an extremely easy way of doing lead gen. The quality of the leads are lower than other forms of game. And the conversion seems quite low due to the inherent dynamics of the medium. (10 girls 100 guys, extreme competition, girls almost always have the stronger frame, very hard to convey IRL vibe, etc.)

As someone who paid his dues doing daygame in the ME of all places, yeah, if you're only doing OG I also kinda look down on you but it's the same way I look down on people only hustling on Facebook groups trying to find leads. Or people trying to finesse Telegram shit and send you DMs over their product. It's weak. It works, but it's weak. Because they're too chicken shit to learn actual copywriting and prepare a proper funnel. Create a proper brand. Nah man, that shit is scary. They prefer the low barrier to entry, low cost shit.

You know what I mean, bro?

But it works. And if it fits in your overall strategy, I think it's foolish not to utilize it.
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
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As someone trying to learn online dating this quarantine, I feel real life game is 10x easier than dating apps, lol.

I don't know where swiping is easier notion comes from. Nobody really approaches well anymore so if you can pull off a good CA you have no competition. Girls are very stuck up and have extreme leverage in most dating apps because it's almost impossible to convey your vibe/personality due to them not seeing your eye contact, tonality, vibe, being, etc. It's super hard for me to convey vibe over text, being a terrible text-er most of my life. My game revolves around doing ZERO text-game.

OD is most definitely a skill and honestly much harder to pull off than CA for the really hot chicks due to its environment.

Off the top of my head, shit that I've been trying to learn:

1) Having a nice profile set up.
2) Calibrating the optics of the profile. Picking archetypes and avatars.
3) Conveying vibe over text.
4) Calibrating over text. (So easy to calibrate IRL but so hard over text for me.)
5) Getting interest/comfort over text or digital means. Learning how to do it well.
6) Screening over text.
7) Emotional control and process of online dating.
8) Managing expectations.
9) Getting used to the power dynamics of OD.
10) Whether to attract or screen over text.
11) The proper vibe of the texting. Depending on different girls/logistics.
12) Getting the girl to see you.
13) Putting girls into your other funnels (social media, etc.).
14) Pulling off the date.
15) Getting the frequency/process right.
16) Framing over text.
17) Balancing too much and too little.
18) Text timings and having multi-day conversations.

Some might be repetitive but I feel online dating has a massive skillset/learning curve. It has a lower success barrier than most other forms of game (bar social circle) so even if you suck you can get laid. But I've read some @Seppuku 's content and the way he puts on frames over text, uses tech and gets compliance is masterful. How he manages his leads and his discipline of putting in the work is remarkable.

----

Let me analyse this situation from a marketing context.

OG has extremely qualified leads, with very easy access to them. It has OK to bad reach, depending on your profile and the culture of the country. The conversion is quite low (I think Seppeku said 1 out of 3 matches respond to him, let alone having a great interaction.) and the quality of the leads are very inconsistent, but you can indirectly influence it to a point.

DG has extremely unqualified leads but with MASSIVE REACH (basically any girl, ever), lead collection is hard and requires effort (like manual lead gen; FB comment interactions etc.) but the leads you generate are SOLID. Extremely good conversion. Great reach but extremely inconsistent leads. You need to do a lot of prospecting with DG.

NG has mostly qualified leads, much much more than DG but less than a dating app where the entire frame is "HEY, wanna fuck?", reach is low (depending on the city/culture/club, but it's very common to have 3-5 good sets in any given place), conversion is OK to very high depending on your skillset.

OD is an extremely easy way of doing lead gen. The quality of the leads are lower than other forms of game. And the conversion seems quite low due to the inherent dynamics of the medium. (10 girls 100 guys, extreme competition, girls almost always have the stronger frame, very hard to convey IRL vibe, etc.)

As someone who paid his dues doing daygame in the ME of all places, yeah, if you're only doing OG I also kinda look down on you but it's the same way I look down on people only hustling on Facebook groups trying to find leads. Or people trying to finesse Telegram shit and send you DMs over their product. It's weak. It works, but it's weak. Because they're too chicken shit to learn actual copywriting and prepare a proper funnel. Create a proper brand. Nah man, that shit scary. They prefer the low barrier to entry, low cost shit.

You know what I mean, bro?

But it works. And if it fits in your overall strategy, I think it's foolish not to utilize it.


^ hehe! this made me lol, but the reason why is not easier is cause you do not have to deal with approach anxiety and you do not have to deal with wildcards such as isolation, cockblocks, loud music, amogs etc....

Just the approach anxiety in itself is hard for most people...
 
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YS.

Modern Human
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Messages
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^ hehe! this made me lol, but the reason why is not easier is cause you do not have to deal with approach anxiety and you do not have to deal with wildcards such as isolation, cockblocks, loud music, amogs etc....

Just the approach anxiety in itself is hard for most people...

I get that man. Lower barrier to entry.

I dunno, feeling super lost in OD lately. Shit is humbling. :)

The funny thing is most PUAs get much worse results with online dating, never bother to actually learn it and then call it easy while simultaneously not getting great results.

I mean, why aren't you crushing it if it's so easy brah?! It requires actual branding skills, instead of just sales which is what most PUAs are good at.

Matching and texting a 9 has been incomparably more difficult for me than to just walk up to her in a bookstore.

To each his own.
 
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Skills

Tribal Elder
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Messages
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Location
South Florida
I get that man. Lower barrier to entry.

I dunno, feeling super lost in OD lately. Shit is humbling. :)

The funny thing is most PUAs get much worse results with online dating, never bother to actually learn it and then call it easy while simultaneously not getting great results.

I mean, why aren't you crushing it if it's so easy brah?! It requires actual branding skills, instead of just sales which is what most PUAs are good at.

Matching and texting a 9 has been incomparably more difficult for me than to just walk up to her in a bookstore.

To each his own.

Yes! that happened to me for about 3 months.... i even did a journal nextasf, it was horrible.... then once you get it, then is easy... but yes the start is just the hard part....

remember to move her from app to text or wassup or whatever.... "i would avoid her having your social media kills curiosity"

remember to close with "a quick meet and great" low pressure to a startbucks or donking donats any objection to this, you say is just to see if the vive is there we will bounce somewhere else...d

-online will make you feel ugly
-online will make you feel like a fraud
-online will make you feel like shit...

^ you need to get pass through all this and understand is not true.... Also if you are not with any type of upgrade most girls won't even see your profile..
 

Grand Pooba

Tribal Elder
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Messages
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Location
NYC
Let me analyse this situation from a marketing context.

OG has extremely qualified leads, with very easy access to them. It has OK to bad reach, depending on your profile and the culture of the country. The conversion is quite low (I think Seppeku said 1 out of 3 matches respond to him, let alone having a great interaction.) and the quality of the leads are very inconsistent, but you can indirectly influence it to a point.

DG has extremely unqualified leads but with MASSIVE REACH (basically any girl, ever), lead collection is hard and requires effort (like manual lead gen; FB comment interactions etc.) but the leads you generate are SOLID. Extremely good conversion. Great reach but extremely inconsistent leads. You need to do a lot of prospecting with DG.

NG has mostly qualified leads, much much more than DG but less than a dating app where the entire frame is "HEY, wanna fuck?", reach is low (depending on the city/culture/club, but it's very common to have 3-5 good sets in any given place), conversion is OK to very high depending on your skillset.

OD is an extremely easy way of doing lead gen. The quality of the leads are lower than other forms of game. And the conversion seems quite low due to the inherent dynamics of the medium. (10 girls 100 guys, extreme competition, girls almost always have the stronger frame, very hard to convey IRL vibe, etc.)

As someone who paid his dues doing daygame in the ME of all places, yeah, if you're only doing OG I also kinda look down on you but it's the same way I look down on people only hustling on Facebook groups trying to find leads. Or people trying to finesse Telegram shit and send you DMs over their product. It's weak. It works, but it's weak. Because they're too chicken shit to learn actual copywriting and prepare a proper funnel. Create a proper brand. Nah man, that shit scary. They prefer the low barrier to entry, low cost shit.

You know what I mean, bro?

But it works. And if it fits in your overall strategy, I think it's foolish not to utilize it.

Nice post :)
 

Seppuku

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Messages
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Hey @YS,

Thanks for the shoutout.

Some might be repetitive but I feel online dating has a massive skillset/learning curve. It has a lower success barrier than most other forms of game (bar social circle) so even if you suck you can get laid. But I've read some @Seppuku 's content and the way he puts on frames over text, uses tech and gets compliance is masterful. How he manages his leads and his discipline of putting in the work is remarkable.
Being organized is a way of improving your efficiency. I was working things backwards, something like: if I want to land one new girl in bed per week, I need to have two new first dates each week, and for that, I must open 80 new girls during the week. Or similar. I soon realized I was losing track of all my openers, so I started to write down every single opener I sent on paper then systematically follow up on each of them (as far as possible). Doing that greatly improved my efficiency. It takes a month or two to build up some momentum, but soon, I was getting more dates than I could handle.

Being systematic about following up was key to getting numbers. Many good leads get lost because we don't follow up in a timely manner.

In the process, since I was keeping track of all my online interactions, I could start gathering some statistics. Having an idea of a "match-to-bed" ratio helped me to adjust my process.

OG has extremely qualified leads, with very easy access to them. It has OK to bad reach, depending on your profile and the culture of the country. The conversion is quite low (I think Seppeku said 1 out of 3 matches respond to him, let alone having a great interaction.) and the quality of the leads are very inconsistent, but you can indirectly influence it to a point.
You probably refer to this post? This "openers campaign" was mostly done on Badoo, an app that doesn't require a formal match to be able to text a girl. Overall, out of three openers sent led to a "workable chat" - not only she responded the opener, but also her particular circumstances or logistics meant it was possible to get a date.

This was done at a time when online dating was easier than it is now. Not sure what the statistics would be today but I wouldn't count on 1 in 3. Since then, dating apps have been flocking with "attention girls". Some men joined the party with financial offers on the table (yes). That has encouraged sugar babies and prostitution to get in the game. We also see increasing amounts of scams. Assholes opening girls with money like they were prostitutes has driven many "good girls" out of the apps.

Another thing which is somehow damaging online dating is precisely the "hey, wanna fuck?" frame. In advance, sorry for the emphasis on your wording, I don't mean offense to you YS, but it's really the best way to put it.

NG has mostly qualified leads, much much more than DG but less than a dating app where the entire frame is "HEY, wanna fuck?", reach is low (depending on the city/culture/club, but it's very common to have 3-5 good sets in any given place), conversion is OK to very high depending on your skillset.
The "Hey, wanna fuck" frame can work, yes, but it is limitative. Yes, I have done that myself. The way I was doing was, I would strongly sexualize the chat, usually by implying sex rather than actually talking about sex. What is suggested is always much more powerful than what is said. Then I would invite the girl straight at home.

I no longer do that.

While all girls are sexual, not all girls will agree to come to your place directly. There are still some girls who are trying to rationalize themselves as "good girls". They will have their ASD shield, "good girls don't do that". The "Hey wanna fuck?" will likely lose you those girls. They happen to be, in general, the ones more suitable for continued relationships. These are the ones you actually want to see.

There is more to it. Given the amount of fakes lurking on the apps, you really want to assess who the girl really is before she is in your home. No more fatty surprise or other weirdos.

So now I systematically demand a date in between. Well, almost always. In times like now, where restaurants, coffee shops, bars, lounges are all closed (where I am), the only real possibility is a first date in my place. But that's more the exception.

By demanding a date, I keep the door open to these girls who wouldn't go for a "hey wanna fuck", and I give myself a chance to filter out the bad surprises that online dating can bring sometimes. Plus, I try to have a quality human interaction with the girl first. That will make a stronger foundation later, if I decide to pursue with the girl. Overall, I think I increased my overall success and quality rate by doing this.

That's the "online dating" way I would advocate.

I am not sure how this topic arose in the first place, and why there is such a stigma around online dating. But I want to point out that, once you are on a date with the girl, this is no longer online dating. It is a real life interaction. You still need to work your seduction, lead the date, pull, escalate.

The online dating itself is just the process required to get a date. It should be kept short and oriented towards getting the date. Once you're on a date, it's dating skills. It doesn't matter anymore how you got that date. I feel that a lot of the discussion on these boards is about how to generate dates, and not enough about what to do once you get the date.

Alright!
Seppuku
 
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Tank

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jul 9, 2019
Messages
115
To me this seems part of a wider philosophical question that I've gone back and forth about.

In my younger days I just thought of pick/game/women in a very hedonistic way. Does it feel good? Am I having fun? Do the girl and I have some enjoyable connection? Then why not do it?
In that sense if prostitution feels good (although I didn't really like it when I tried it) who cares. If online dating gives you pleasure, who cares, and if there are some tactics online and on the date that result in more success and hence joy and pleasure than not why not. (and not purely physical pleasure, of course, there's also the element of enjoying the girl's company and so on, and even sex is more interesting from the sexual rapport standpoint).
But then I was fucking everything that moved, having sex 20-30 hours per week and so on and doing everything possible sexually those days, as well as experimenting with all sorts of recreational drugs, was a bit of a degenerate.

But then the other framework is that girls/women/game have an aspect of accomplishment, as in, the quality and success rate and so on as indicative of your value as a man, and thus it should be considered from the standpoint of how successful you are and, vaguely, high value/cool/alpha you are.
I didn't gravitate to this naturally, but ironically through hedonism, in that it seemed that the hotter girls preferred men who thought this way and were focused first and foremost and being high value, alpha, skilled at things and what things represented rather than strictly what felt good.
But then I'm not sure again cause it's not like that mindset specifically led me anywhere good in particular, either.

Once I had an LTR who was a 6, and I was unhappy, how much was this because I felt like less of a man being with her, and how much was because there were some sexual activites I couldn't enjoy with her, that I wasn't experienced some visual elements of sex that I liked, and so on?

Obviously from hedonism itself game is still important in that more and hotter girls gives more pleasure. And for life happiness in general, and even being an accomplished person in your life, a high closing percentage means you can achieve the pleasure and fun and connections you enjoy without it taking too much of your time, and then you can spend more time on your other goals. So although I'm trying to focus more on my other goals in general these days, in the compartment of dating/sex I'm not sure which framework is "right" (for me, I guess?)

So I don't know, I'm sort of on the fence about this overall philosophical question. And lately moving a bit towards the hedonistic side of things. (and again hedonism is maybe the wrong word, since it's not so much the pleasure element itself but the types of sexual connection and rapport that can happen through various sexual modalities)
 
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