ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

Mr.Rob

Modern Human
Modern Human
Joined
Jun 16, 2013
Messages
1,662
Location
Orlando
Matter of fact, this happened the other night on a date. We got coffee. Talked for an hour. I said let's walk around across the street (driving distance). She said yes. We walk to the parking lot. I said let's take one car (translation: get in the car with me). She said no, very clearly. Surely you're not saying I stand there for 5 minutes pleading with her?
What was the plan for after coffee that you were leading her with? She followed your lead to the car so that's a good start. But you didn't make it clear what the plan you proposed was (i.e. go back to your place to play ping pong, go to another cool bar down the street, etc) but maybe you just didn't write it here? Ideally you have her agree to the plan not agree to get in the car so its not

"Here we are at my car. Would you like to come in with me?"
"No."
"Come on. Let's chill."
"No."
"It's cold out (or whatever)."
"No. I'm not getting in the car with you."

Instead its:

"here come, lets steal the night away and have that ping pong contest we talked about. Im totally gonna kick your butt!"
"No I can't its late"
"No my darling the night is yet still young, it will only take 20 minutes to decide the grand champion and as soon as one of us is victorious we'll celebrate with a drink of my famous xyz cocktail and you can leave to get all the bedrest you need to crunch your accounting #'s tomorrow"
"hmm, idk I need all 8 hours of sleep to be productive and..
"AND! I personally ensure that you won't miss a wink (smiling) Come lets continue having a bit more fun. You want to ride with me or follow me in your car?"

Not a perfect example but much improved.

Regarding: "You know at the end of the day the decisive factor of a woman going home with you boils down to how you make her feel. Your impact on her emotions."

Very true. Then these women don't feel anything about me. And who knows what they felt going into the date. My hunch is barely anything. Maybe like "Meh he's worth an hour. Maybe he'll surprise me." In my opinion, I have zero edge and zero bad boy-ness. I think this is a huge factor. Not really sure how to change that besides covering myself with tattoos.
Yeah you can think of your fundamentals, conversation, and game as things that all contribute to impacting her emotions. So if your continually getting flat responses then your being flat or feeling flat yourself. Remember she feels what you feel, so if you feel flat she is to. If you feel alive passionate and sexual then she will to via state transfer.

That could be an element.

You don't have to be the baddest edgy bad boy to get girls. (tho it help!) You can be a nice guy that radiates strength through holding good eye contact, passing her tests, and touching her and do just fine.

"You know based on the questions you ask its almost like you have no clue what the process should even look like."

Maybe? Meet for coffee/drinks -> Let her talk -> maybe go to 2nd venue -> isolate somewhere, preferably at someone's place -> go for sex. I've read all the articles about it. I sound confused because I am.
I know you know what the process looks like on paper. What I mean is you don't know what a good execution looks like in action. OR better yet what it should FEEL like.

That's why I was recommending you grab a copy of Super Seducer because the game does a great job of showing exactly what the seduction process should look/feel like from "hello" to asking her to go home with you. Richard (the guy who made the game) did a really good job of capturing the full seduction process on video and all the acting is very realistic and convincing in it. Plus Richard has nice guy game himself and isn't what you'd call edgy... Though he has edge as a nice guy.

Having a visual model to emulate can be very powerful for learning.

Again, I just can't reconcile what you guys are recommending vs. what my eyes are seeing. My eyes see girls that firmly don't want to follow my lead and clearly, emphatically say no when I try to move for isolation.
Lastly there could be a bit of incongruency in the type of guy they think you'll be vs the type of guy you come off as. Girls can sense this stuff.

What I mean is a guy who confidently approaches a girl you would imagine is pretty experienced with girls but in your case your not experienced and girls might be feeling the disconnect there.

I experienced this my first year into seduction clearly as I only had 1 sexual experience up to that point.

The solution of course is two fold A) get more experience with women and B) fake it by emulating how successful guys act/behave/vibe.

That was a key thing for me is acting not like myself but like the role models I chose. Again at the end of the day your emulating the role models vibe you choose.

Hope we aren't giving you too much info and confusing you but those are the first thoughts that came to mind for me.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
Thanks Rob!

What was the plan for after coffee that you were leading her with?
The plan was to drive across the street to an area where we could walk around. We arrived at the coffee place separately. She agreed to go walking around. As we got to the parking lot, she started hesitating. "ehh maybe we shouldn't, it's getting late..." (it was 9pm). I persisted here and she agreed. It was then I offered to take 1 car instead of both and she gave a crystal clear "No." So we drove separately across the street.

"hmm, idk I need all 8 hours of sleep to be productive and..
"AND! I personally ensure that you won't miss a wink (smiling) Come lets continue having a bit more fun. You want to ride with me or follow me in your car?"
LOL I know exactly what you mean, and no, I wasn't sharing my actual phrasing. You may have missed the point I was getting at and that is, the girl wasn't saying stuff like "I don't know." She wasn't on the fence. She was crystal clear declining to get in the car (isolate) with me no matter what I said. She agreed to the plan of driving across the street (separately) to go walking around for a bit, but she crystal clear was not going to agree to get in one car (isolate) with me.

Regarding fundamentals, yeah I figure that's the issue. But I've never understood how to test this. I've read the article and THINK I'm executing the fundamentals to the best of my knowledge, but how do I know? How do I know if my voice is on point or if it's garbage and can be 10x better? How do I know what my vibe is? How do I know if I'm making weird face twitches or something? Every person I ask for feedback makes faces like 'are you serious? you're great. you're cool. you're doing absolutely nothing wrong. etc.'

Regarding Super Seducer, getting a copy may be a good idea. I'm still confident my #1 issue is some fundamental and is rearing itself wayyyy upstream, but yeah, Super Seducer certainly won't hurt, and I'm sure will indeed help when it comes to seeing how dates/interactions should go.
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
1,082
Location
Middle East, Asia, Africa
Hey guys,

Mr Rob made very good points to which I agree. And here:

Lastly there could be a bit of incongruency in the type of guy they think you'll be vs the type of guy you come off as. Girls can sense this stuff.

What I mean is a guy who confidently approaches a girl you would imagine is pretty experienced with girls but in your case your not experienced and girls might be feeling the disconnect there.
I think Mr Rob is up to something.

The question I want to ask you (ElderPrice): during the date, are you the Nice Guy?

The other question I am wondering: do you have any kind of sexual tension at all? I suspect not.

A big sexual tension killer is when you are an open book to her. I did recommend you earlier not to be too gamey - because in the case you're not doing it right, it may be the thing firing back big time. However if there is one little tweak you can try, it is this one: you keep your body language under tight control, so as to keep her guessing as to whether you like her or not. The main things you want to control:
  • Are you too high energy? That communicates your excitement. You should probably tune it down. (And we already discussed that before).
  • Are you smiling too much? That kills sexual tension and make you come across as Nice Guy. You should probably keep your smile to only when she did / said something to deserve it - and otherwise try staying neutral.
  • Are you leaning forward too much? Or pointing your body towards her? You should compensate that by sometimes also leaning back or turning slightly away.
  • Also look in the early Chase articles what he describes as the "slow smile". This is the one single thing I adopted from all Chase's "fundamentals" articles, which helped me the most. It's a hint of a smile, lips slightly opened, which says "I know more than you might think".
In my experience, I never encountered much real resistance when attempting to isolate. I have got resistance with setting up a date, or at time of sexual escalation. But not with getting her to following me home (except a little token resistance once in a while). It would be interesting to hear Mr Rob's experience with regard to this.

This is how this would go for me:
- We talk all throughout the date
- Like any girl I go on a date with, she's cold, not touchy, not flirty
- At some point, whether before we walk to the car or right as we walk up to the car, I have to ask or say to get in the car.
- She's going to say no
When you ask her opinion, i.e. "would you like to come with me?" you expose yourself to "No". Any kind of "No" is negative compliance. It sets a precedent for getting more and more Nos. So on a critical thing like pulling home, it is important you avoid to put yourself in a situation to get a No.

So just don't ask.

Here is one way to do that - the smooth authority.

You are in the venue, the 60 / 90 minutes have already passed. You ask for the check and proceed to settle the bill. "Come on, let's go some other place. " (not asking her). You walk out of the venue with her. Reach your car. You open the door of the passenger seat.

Good case, she just follow your lead and get in the car. Bad case, she asks:
- "Where are we going?"
- Let's go [to my home] and listen some cool jazz music. Get in! (Note: sometimes I don't tell her it's in my home right away. Girls read between the lines anyway. Your choice.).
- I can't because [...]
- It's too early to go back, and it is cold inside. Let's go!
- But I have to be home early because tomorrow [...]
- It's OK, we will only stay five minutes then I drive you back. Now get in!
Etc... Read about what Chase calls "the Hard Push".

Another technique is to assume the sale has already been done:

(You are still in the venue. It's time to move on)
- Next, I'm taking you to listen some cool jazz music. Lets' go.
Here you wrapped your invitation with an immediate "Let's go" which didn't give her time to object. You just assumed the sale was concluded and proceeded. And now if she follows you, she has implicitly accepted your frame. Sale done!

Obviously, if you attempt to pull late in the evening, you are calling some troubles on yourself. That's why it is best to carefully plan your date so that you have still plenty of time when the date is ended.

Something like this:
"Here we are at my car. Would you like to come in with me?"
"No."
"Come on. Let's chill."
"No."
"It's cold out (or whatever)."
"No. I'm not getting in the car with you."
......
"K bye."
is serious negative compliance. You have to be smart enough to stay away from this. Once the "No" start flying, you will get more of them. The best way is to avoid asking a question calling for a No.

I really hope we will manage to debug you some time!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
The question I want to ask you (ElderPrice): during the date, are you the Nice Guy?
To the best of my knowledge, no. If you can elaborate with a more specific definition, or examples, then I can be clear with my answer. But otherwise, no. On 90% of my dates, if there's anything to pay for, I asked if she wouldn't mind splitting. Occasionally I've paid for coffee or tea since that's only like $3, and occasionally I asked the girl to pay for my coffee. Lately I've been trying to push myself more to ask the girl to pay for me, if for no other reason that makes the date free for me :)

During the conversation, I try to be as push/pull as possible. Er, maybe to be fully accurate and honest, maybe I should say I try to make sure I 'push.' I figure based on the previous feedback I've received here and one female friend suggesting that I could stand to be more challenging, my face might be conveying all the "pulling" itself, if that makes sense. Anyway, I also try to communicate my opinions as strongly as possible and not supplicate to hers. IE. If she says things like "I like classical music" and "I like chinese food" and "I like this town," I do NOT say "Oooo me too!" with some giddy look on my face and agree with everything she says. I'll agree if it's something I legitimately agree with, but otherwise I'd say some something like this, playfully, "Classical music? Boring! Rock is where it's at!" or "Oh you like chinese food? Pizza is where it's at. If we can't order pizza while binge watching Netflix, I don't know if this is going to work out..." Again, said playfully.

The other question I am wondering: do you have any kind of sexual tension at all? I suspect not.
I don't think so. There have been a few rare occasions where I've been with a girl who is unquestionably into me. I don't think any was an actual date... just other interactions here and there. And in those cases, there was clearly sexual tension. Clearly flirting both ways, clearly sexual conversation topics both ways, and reciprocated touch.

The girls I've been on dates with again aren't like this. They're not having fun. They're probably nervous. They just don't participate in the dance.

A big sexual tension killer is when you are an open book to her. I did recommend you earlier not to be too gamey - because in the case you're not doing it right, it may be the thing firing back big time.
I can assure you, for sure, I am not overgaming. I can't consciously remember the 10,000 things that I can do better during an interaction or date and think on the spot how to act to fix them. So 95%+ of what I do on a date is all instinct. I look at her, try to read how she's responding, and try to legitimately get to know her. I also throw in some flirting in there and sex topics to try and get the ball rolling in a sexual direction. I do this with the simple plan of meet -> talk for no more than an hour -> bounce to another venue and/or try to isolate -> then if the gods are on my side, make it back to her place.

Zero canned lines, zero canned gambits, nothing like that. As a matter of fact, that's why for a while in my journal I was actually reading up on MM because I felt like I was lacking way too much in game material!

However if there is one little tweak you can try, it is this one: you keep your body language under tight control, so as to keep her guessing as to whether you like her or not. The main things you want to control:
  • Are you too high energy? That communicates your excitement. You should probably tune it down. (And we already discussed that before).
  • Are you smiling too much? That kills sexual tension and make you come across as Nice Guy. You should probably keep your smile to only when she did / said something to deserve it - and otherwise try staying neutral.
  • Are you leaning forward too much? Or pointing your body towards her? You should compensate that by sometimes also leaning back or turning slightly away.
  • Also look in the early Chase articles what he describes as the "slow smile". This is the one single thing I adopted from all Chase's "fundamentals" articles, which helped me the most. It's a hint of a smile, lips slightly opened, which says "I know more than you might think".
I have already been consciously trying to monitor this, as you've suggested it a LONG time ago. It's always been top of mind.

On this previous date from last week, I did much better than in the past. I was leaned back the whole time, and only leaned in a couple times after she did (following the idea of the reward/punish concept. IE my leaning in was rewarding her for her leaning in). I'd laugh when she legitimately made me laugh, and look bored when she was on a boring conversation topic.

Regarding smiling, I bet if an expert like you saw me in person, you'd say I'm smiling too much. But it's not a Mr. Nice Guy smile. That's my natural personality. I looove laughing and cracking jokes and keeping a fun, positive mood to everyone that's around me. I take very few situations seriously. I'm always smiling and laughing and finding humor in things. Now, maybe my natural smile looks Nice and fully unsexy. Who knows. Guess it's possible.

EDIT: Whoops. Hit reply before addressing your last point. Regarding your point of phrasing, you're correct, I can definitely do better in that department. If you're saying phrasing may be the issue sinking me -- and I don't think you are -- then I would disagree to an extent. I've seen a number of Chase articles where he phrases these transition points as questions. "What say you and me grab some ice cream?" "Friday. 8pm. Does that work with your schedule?" "Let's say we check out the place next door. That work for you?" Stuff like that. I imagine even with poor phrasing, you would still do fine if your other elements of game were in good shape. Correct me if I'm wrong. But again, I can tell you for sure I'm not great with phrasing.

Seppuku, you the man.
 
Last edited:

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 14, 2017
Messages
279
3. Similarly, how is a date supposed to compete with tinder? If a beautiful girl wants sex, why would she not just hop on tinder, swipe for 5 minutes, then have her plans for the night?
- Isnʼt the date itself slotting you at least partially into the boyfriend category right off the bat?
Not at all!

Women are very much attracted to men who have balls. It takes a lot of balls to, instead of swipe on a phone screen, slide up beside a girl in a grocery store or whatever and start hitting on her. Iʼve done it dozens of times over the last couple years, and every time even now, itʼs still terrifying. The biggest reason my game is still way behind the eightball is because of just how many times I bitch out at the last moment instead of doing something that I have already seen will in some cases get me laid.

The upside to this is that, if you even so much as approach a girl in day game, by default you have balls. By contrast, even the hottest guy on her Tinder by default has no balls. He had to hide behind a computer to try to get laid. (No offense to Seppuku — heʼs mainly using on‑line because of local demographics, and plus he has tweaked his game to more than make up for the apparent initial lack of balls.)

My first real lay was a casual fuck from the first date, with a girl that apparently already had another guy in the picture. I picked her up from approaching her in a big box store where she was shopping for groceries with her mom. When she was laid back on my couch, she for some reason decided to show me her Tinder profile. What does that tell us? At least that night, I obviously outfucked all those cowardly chumps on Tinder!!

(Speaking of another guy in the picture, I strongly suggest you donʼt screen your prospects for being single. Certainly donʼt ask them! Science plus my limited experience suggests that single girls may actually be harder to seduce quickly. And asking poses a serious risk of boyfriend-slotting yourself; I never ask.)


BUT I would say the majority of them do not know beforehand. Most of the time I would say her wanting sex is not a conscious process, more something growing in the background without them being aware — at first. They really become aware they desire it when they turn on during the final escalation.
Totally second this. I was quite taken aback by how sudden it was. Itʼs like, once youʼve persisted in escalating enough, a switch just flips in her head and she totally wants to have sex, whereas a moment before she was just more or less tolerating being touched, basically not even reciprocating. You can really see the moment she consciously made the decision to have sex, and itʼs very late in the process.


As for your overall situation. Even with my low level of experience (God, I need to work on my approach volume, lol), I can tell you with confidence that there should be some girls, even moderately attractive ones who arenʼt fat, where their responses will be:

meet -> passive compliance -> passive compliance -> passive compliance -> passive compliance -> sure, letʼs have sex

And thatʼs with not really doing anything in particular game‑wise other than have some decent fashion, meet her in day game (implicit balls), at each step try to move things in a direction leading to sex, donʼt buy her anything, get her to do the talking, donʼt give in to little shit tests, try to pull on date one, use a good excuse to get her to your home (hers I think is definitely harder so you should aim for yours even if the situation at home is not perfect), and be relaxed and chill.

Well, Iʼm sure not all women are that easy, but a normal expectation is that some will be, and Iʼm finding it hard to understand that you never get a girl this easy even in 60 dates, when I found one this easy after only four dates! And I am not anywhere skilled like Seppuku or Mr. Rob are. And Iʼm not tall, muscular, or super-attractive either; I canʼt even seem to get better than 5/10 on Photofeeler, lol. Iʼm not socially a natural either; Iʼm shy and introverted. Shit, Iʼm even living in a feminazi capital which outsiders have said is terrible for game and that the women are “bitchy and entitled”. And I canʼt even drive. So much is going against me, yet still, try enough girls and one is willing to jump into bed with me.

That screams out to me that there must be something very specific that youʼre doing that turns the girls off. Or maybe some limiting belief, neediness, or mood problem. Or limiting yourself to girls that are hot instead of just cute. Trust me, getting sex should not be this hard!

I think you should read the report of my first lay, here, if you havenʼt already. Not because itʼs a model lay — itʼs not by any means. My fundamentals were less than stellar, I lacked most of the tactical elements of game, and I was far too slow in escalating. However, an important lesson is that I slept with the girl in spite of all that. Part of that is because, while in that sense it was not a model lay, in another sense, it was, because while it was terrible tactically, it was excellent strategically. It demonstrates how following the basic process and taking a leap of faith is the most critical factor.

At key turning points, a good understanding of the feminine mind helped me make correct decisions, and I explain those decisions. I wasnʼt all that smooth, but I was smooth at the points where it mattered most.

I think it would also help you to see just how little this girl was outwardly expressing interest in sex on the date. No arm touching. No doe eyes. Nothing. None of that stuff youʼve repeatedly lamented never seeing. Personally, in retrospect, I almost think she only fucked me because she was bored. But youʼll get girls like that!

Itʼs also probably the most detailed report on GC — I had to edit extensively just to keep within the boardʼs size limit! So I hope you can get something out of it.
 

Científico

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Dec 20, 2018
Messages
128
Want to just chime in here and second what ThePhoenix said in the first half of his post above. I am finding cold approach to be the single most effective way to improve my confidence and interactions with women - so many men don't do it, and I love the shocked/intrigued reactions women give when you approach and open direct. It's getting right what you want and there are unlimited opportunities in day to day life.

Even though I have never gotten laid from a pure daygame lead, I know for a fact that it can lead to magical moments, like the time a colombian tourist was passionately kissing me within 60 minutes of meeting her, or the times I've had drinks with/kissed attractive women at airports just because I bothered to open them in the terminal, or the time I snatched a girl from the sidewalk and within 5 minutes had her going to happy hour with me.

I really think the key is volume and consistency. Despite how much I believe in it, the anti-approach weasel still talks me out of it fairly often when I am not out for the explicit reason of approaching women. Today I broke that by approaching a cutie in the hospital cafeteria where I was working today, while waiting for my colleague. Setting these small goals, and meeting them, goes a long way.
 
Top