ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

JacobPalmer

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Millions of years of evolution has physically conditioned our bodies to be omnivores. Even our tooth structure, digestive enzymes, etc., are all clearly omnivorous. There are micronutrients essential to human health which are much more abundant in animal foods than in plant foods. As a result, if you want to go totally herbivore, you need to be extremely careful in managing your micronutrients in a way that omnivorous diets donʼt require. Itʼs a lot of work and most people get it wrong.
Careful, this is totally incorrect. While we can eat meat (just like dogs CAN eat vegetables), we're not designed to be omnivores/carnivores.

Our tooth structure is very similar to chimps, who eat a predominantly plant based diet (fruits mostly). And if you want to get really scientific, while some apes/chimps do hunt, their total protein intake from animal sources is less than 5% of their caloric intake, which is basically nothing.

Digestive enzymes - compared to a carnivore or omnivore, we're not even close to being able to digest meat well. The digestive enzymes that we have are designed to break down small amounts of protein (found in fruits/veggies, etc). Even the concentration of these protein digesting enzymes is somewhere like 1000X less concentrated than that in a dog. Humans digest very little of the meat they consume (I think it's somewhere around 20%). Even looking at our digestive track and the length of it, it's much more similar to a herbivore than a carnivore/omnivore as it has a longer digestive tract. Carnivores have very short digestive tracts in order to expell the meat they consume faster, while herbivores are long to absorb more nutrients from their food and break it down further. (side note, protein that stays in your gut for too long eventually begins to rot...)

The only micronutrient that would be more abundant in meat products COULD be B12, everything else is easily sourced from plants.

Now, while there are some people who are vitamin deficient who go on plant based diets, if you go whole foods based you should be ok. Because keep in mind, you can still be vegan by eating potatoe chips and bread all day, in which case you wouldn't get any nutrients/vitamins.

Testosterone....what?? Your body builds it's own testosterone, especially if you work out lifting weights. You don't need an external source of testosterone. If anything eating meat products would throw your hormonal balance off, not help it.

I felt great, looked great, and I seem to remember my sex drive was better than usual.
This is because you were working out hard, not because you were consuming more meat. Exercise and lifting weights increases testosterone production which in turn increases sex drive. I'm willing to bet if you didn't work out and went on a mostly meat based diet your sex drive would plummet.
 

Científico

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Elder, I strongly disagree with much of what ThePhoenix said in his last post, but I doubt you are interested in a debate about diets on your journal, and JacobPalmer already did a decent job responding.

Suffice it to say, one thing I kinda do agree on is that you need to make sure you are eating a balanced diet, filled with leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables, beans, fruit, whole grains, nuts, and flax seeds. Get enough of all of these and you need not worry about your nutrients (since you are getting basically everything you need), while avoiding the health issues linked to dairy/meat consumption such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, obesity, etc.

The only thing you might need to take a supplement for is vitamin B12, which is found more easily in meat and the human body has a hard time absorbing - (for this reason its recommended by many health orgs that anyone over the age of 50, meat consumer or not, take B12 supplements).

And of course, exercise regularly for optimal health!

How many calories do you two eat each day? Can you eat out all the time or are you largely forced to prepare most of your meals at home?
I honestly don't keep track. I skip breakfast (unless I work out in the morning that day), and since I work out in the field a lot in a sales job, I have to resort to an app on my phone to often find plant-based food for lunch where I happen to be that day. The good thing is, there are so many options available these days, and they are getting more plentiful, so being plant-based is much easier than it used to be.
 

ElderPrice

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Cientifico, no worries my man. Jacob has stated his opinion before in here on the subject and I briefly talked about it:

I have observed that my skin gets better when I greatly reduce carbs. Carbs defined as bread, potatoes, sugar, rice, etc. Couple problems though. This doesn't clear me 100% no matter how good I am with the diet, and any diet that severely restricts carbs or animal I don't think is going to be enough calories for me. If I ate 2000 calories a day, I'd turn into a toothpick. I need around 3000 to maintain my muscular build and strength.. maybe 3500.

Plus I can't envision maintaining this when out with friends or traveling. Everything has carbs or animal in it. Sure I could eat salads, but I'd have to eat a shitload of them to get my calories.

Then on top of that I'd have to actually roughly count how much protein I'd be getting each day. Anyone that has made intermediate strength gains in the weight room knows you simply have to eat enough protein to recover and get stronger. It's hard enough having to watch my carbs, which you also need to recover.

Anyway, that's just where I'm coming from. And remember this all came up as a counter recommendation against taking accutane to clear one's skin.
 

ThePhoenix

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Certainly donʼt want to get into side-track debates in your journal! Jacob does make some interesting points Iʼll have to take into future consideration. Thereʼs obviously going to be a spectrum between obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores. I do agree that many people would do well to eat less meat. Also, the way that many animal products today are produced is unhealthy (hormone injections etc.), but that also applies to many plant products, too (pesticides, refinement, etc.). I just think moderation, or the middle ground, is in general a safer bet when it comes to anything in life.

Just to note, Iʼm not a complete moron who thinks that you eat testosterone. It actually canʼt be absorbed digestively at all. In men itʼs made mainly in the Leydig cells of the testes, thus the name. Steroid hormones are synthesized from cholesterol. The body makes its own cholesterol and at least in principle this should be enough since itʼs under homeostatic regulation, but I have seen in various places claims that increased dietary cholesterol can increase testosterone; I havenʼt thoroughly researched this yet and there are also health risks, so Iʼm not about to eat a ton of eggs every day just yet, although there are people who swear by it. What I can say is that just in my own personal experience, at a point where I was eating very little meat, my HDL and LDL (types of cholesterol) were both on the low side, and this was also a point where my T was quite low. There may have been other factors at play, and I wouldnʼt doubt if I may have been able to correct this purely from plant sources, but it would require a lot of care and attention.

And I totally agree, if I hadʼve been sitting on my ass while eating the way I was eating under the trainerʼs guidance, the effects would have been disastrous, just from the calories alone! One could probably argue that genetics and exercise play a bigger role in health than diet, but I havenʼt really looked into it.

Iʼm going to look into B12, especially since I eat less meat than most people.

You mention that thereʼs an association between carbs and your acne. Have you carefully differentiated between simple and complex carbs? One “gotcha” I have found is that commercially baked bread products, for instance, that claim to be “whole grain” etc., often have added sugars (which go by many other names, like high fructose corn syrup, maltodextrin, etc.), which really defeats the purpose! Commercial bakeries tend to load up on the sodium, too. Ugh. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a lot of the food out there is really unhealthy!
 

ElderPrice

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ThePhoenix said:
Certainly donʼt want to get into side-track debates in your journal! Jacob does make some interesting points Iʼll have to take into future consideration. Thereʼs obviously going to be a spectrum between obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores. I do agree that many people would do well to eat less meat. Also, the way that many animal products today are produced is unhealthy (hormone injections etc.), but that also applies to many plant products, too (pesticides, refinement, etc.). I just think moderation, or the middle ground, is in general a safer bet when it comes to anything in life.

Just to note, Iʼm not a complete moron who thinks that you eat testosterone. It actually canʼt be absorbed digestively at all. In men itʼs made mainly in the Leydig cells of the testes, thus the name. Steroid hormones are synthesized from cholesterol. The body makes its own cholesterol and at least in principle this should be enough since itʼs under homeostatic regulation, but I have seen in various places claims that increased dietary cholesterol can increase testosterone; I havenʼt thoroughly researched this yet and there are also health risks, so Iʼm not about to eat a ton of eggs every day just yet, although there are people who swear by it. What I can say is that just in my own personal experience, at a point where I was eating very little meat, my HDL and LDL (types of cholesterol) were both on the low side, and this was also a point where my T was quite low. There may have been other factors at play, and I wouldnʼt doubt if I may have been able to correct this purely from plant sources, but it would require a lot of care and attention.

And I totally agree, if I hadʼve been sitting on my ass while eating the way I was eating under the trainerʼs guidance, the effects would have been disastrous, just from the calories alone! One could probably argue that genetics and exercise play a bigger role in health than diet, but I havenʼt really looked into it.

Iʼm going to look into B12, especially since I eat less meat than most people.

You mention that thereʼs an association between carbs and your acne. Have you carefully differentiated between simple and complex carbs? One “gotcha” I have found is that commercially baked bread products, for instance, that claim to be “whole grain” etc., often have added sugars (which go by many other names, like high fructose corn syrup, maltodextrin, etc.), which really defeats the purpose! Commercial bakeries tend to load up on the sodium, too. Ugh. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a lot of the food out there is really unhealthy!
I think I've noticed that my skin reacts a little better to healthy carbs vs. unhealthy ones. But I think it more has to do with the blood sugar/insulin spike that accompanies eating carbs. Just my theory based on observations and the very limited science I've looked into.
 

ElderPrice

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10/27/19 Update. Main takeaway: Taking time off helped see where my weaknesses might be.

Not much of an update for the past month or so. Been dealing with the IBD flare most of the time. It's slowly but surely getting better, but it hasn't been linear progress. One week it'll be bad relatively speaking, then for a few days it'll be 90% better, then it'll get a little worse again, etc. On average it's definitely going in the right direction and currently I'm like 90/95% in the clear. At least today I am! If it sticks for a couple weeks then I'll be confident that it's finally behind me.

Because there were a lot of bad days where I couldn't go out, I used this opportunity to reflect on my skills with women and to assess where I think I'm pretty good and where my weak spots may be. On the occasional nights where I felt good I went out mainly just to practice. I didn't have much of a desire to try to pull since I didn't know if I'd feel good a few hours later, or the next morning, etc.

After reflecting and practicing, I think I'm actually pretty good interacting with women. I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that. I think I persist well when presented with an opportunity. I also think I establish comfort, or something like that, pretty well because I don't think I've ever gotten a fake number, at least not to my knowledge.

But things seemingly always go south the second I move to do something just the two of us, or attempt a pull. Just my two cents, but I don't think they're giving me token resistance. I think they're giving me full blown resistance.

I met with a female friend recently to ask for her feedback, particularly on my vibe and how I come across. We're always out at the same places and she always sees me interacting with girls. She says I'm awesome. Vibe is great, playfulness is great, etc. She made a very WTF face when I asked her for feedback and saying ladies just don't seem receptive (to go sexual). She was very shocked because the ElderPrice she sees looks like a lady's man and always seems to have many happy girls around him.

I told her specifically that girls always back off when I try to take things further. Either to arrange a meetup just the two of us, or if it seems possible, go for the pull. I tried to get her opinion on my sexiness. Eventually, she seemed to more or less confirm the suspicion I was getting at: I must be coming across as too quality or boyfriendy, and not at all like someone you want to fuck immediately.

I've always had a suspicion this is the case. I have a few guy friends who have dropped lines here and there about how women interact with them. One friend was telling me how all the time he'll open a girl just a little, sit down with his friends, and they will walk up to him and give him their numbers. Another friend who frequents the same places as me was telling me about how one time he met a girl there, connected on Facebook after a conversation, left the set to go hang out with friends, then not even an hour later she started texting him herself. Stuff like 'hey hot stuff.' Super easy IOIs. And this was a standard early 20s 8 or 9. My point is, I've never had anything like this happen to me a single time. Not one woman ever has offered to give me her number, and girls never text first. I know this is normal and I'm not saying I'm expecting the reverse. But if the reverse is happening, I take that as a sign that you've got it. You're attracting women that want to fuck you and that's the place you want to be. Since I can't even dumb luck find a girl like that after 1000+ approaches, I'm taking that as a big red flag that I'm just not being seen as a fast sex option.

My experience with online apps is another piece of supporting evidence. They've NEVER worked for me, despite asking photographer friends on 3 occasions to help take pictures of me. None have been sexy. No swipes from anything that's not a manatee to save my life. I take this as evidence that it's not my verbal game that's sinking me in the real world, it's just that girls are instantly ruling me out as a fast sex option.

Going back to my female friend, she seemingly confirmed all this by saying stuff like 'yes there's other guys at the places we go to that are definitely more bad boy and they're tough to compete with.'

We both were stumped on trying to think how I can make myself more like that. It's not like these other guys are dressing much different, if at all. And they don't take whatever they're doing to any extreme and go overboard. And I'm not doing anything 'wrong' myself. I don't know. Next time I go to the barber I'll tell him blank canvas, make me sexier and see what happens there. I'll keep trying to find better clothes. There's other things on my list I want to do to boost my edge like learn a martial art, but I'm waiting for this illness to pass before adding new physical stress.

So anyway, yeah, that's where I'm at after dealing with this medical issue for the last month. I'll scour GC for articles and board posts on how to do better at coming across as a fast sex option.
 

NewBeeWinner

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Hey ElderPrice,

Glad to hear taking some time was helpful!

Sounds like you've identified your sticking point in moving things forward - specifically with the "pull" and "escalation" transition phases of seduction. I'd check out the GC articles on these areas specifically and see what wisdom you can glean from them.

Just a word of warning to be careful comparing yourself to other guys. So sometimes girls initiate contact first with them or offer them their number first BUT how much does that really matter? I've had girls initiate contact first and had girls say "so do you want my number?", BUT what really matters is downstream of that. Are these guys actually getting results (i.e. getting lays from these girls)? That's where it matters. So to tweak your thinking a bit ('I take that as a sign that you've got it"), that isn't always the case. ALL it shows is that she's interested. End of story. Girls do this many many different ways and maybe you're not picking up on the signs girls show you.

Don't screen yourself out so quick.

I've seen a lot of successful seducers on here (myself, included) that aren't fans of online apps. It's totally different from day/night game approaching so don't be so hard on yourself here.

Finally, since I've been thinking about this myself as well (being more of a guy girls say "he's hot. I want to fuck him" instead of a "oh he's cute. I want to date him" guy), here's some questions to ask yourself:

1) What is your vibe throughout the interaction with a girl? How does it change? Do you adapt it as you move things forward?

2) Do you show desire towards that girl when interacting with her (like I've been building the habit of triangulating my gaze from her right eye to her left eye to her lips and back every couple seconds to build more sexual tension)? Do you stand close to her? Do you get her investing, leaning towards you and touching you? This is something I've realized with myself I need to do more.

3) How well do you handle transitions? Transitions moving the conversation to topics that are more sexual / relationship based? What frames are you setting when these topics come up to reach your goals (by this, I mean if you want a ONS you would frame differently than if you want a casual relationship)?

4) Are you physically as well as verbally escalating your conversations with women? Do you use sexual-prizing, chase frames, escalation ladders, sex gambits/talk?

5) You said "I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that". These are all great and make for a great boyfriend candidate. But are you using sexual tension? Pregnant pauses in your conversations? Do you get girls to qualify themselves to you? How good of a conversationalist are you? Do you tease girls and then tell THEM to stop playing with you so much (making it HER fault)? Do you hold your frame and lead the conversation/interaction or are you letting her take the lead / expecting her to make a move (this applies to all stages of the seduction process)? How much physical touch are you using?

The lover is the loser with sex appeal. Are you showing sex appeal in your actions and words (or lack thereof)? That's the area I think you should look at.

Hope this helps (and don't forget to trust the process when things get tough!)

NBW
 

ElderPrice

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NewBeeWinner said:
Hey ElderPrice,

Glad to hear taking some time was helpful!

Sounds like you've identified your sticking point in moving things forward - specifically with the "pull" and "escalation" transition phases of seduction. I'd check out the GC articles on these areas specifically and see what wisdom you can glean from them.

Just a word of warning to be careful comparing yourself to other guys. So sometimes girls initiate contact first with them or offer them their number first BUT how much does that really matter? I've had girls initiate contact first and had girls say "so do you want my number?", BUT what really matters is downstream of that. Are these guys actually getting results (i.e. getting lays from these girls)? That's where it matters. So to tweak your thinking a bit ('I take that as a sign that you've got it"), that isn't always the case. ALL it shows is that she's interested. End of story. Girls do this many many different ways and maybe you're not picking up on the signs girls show you.

Don't screen yourself out so quick.

I've seen a lot of successful seducers on here (myself, included) that aren't fans of online apps. It's totally different from day/night game approaching so don't be so hard on yourself here.

Finally, since I've been thinking about this myself as well (being more of a guy girls say "he's hot. I want to fuck him" instead of a "oh he's cute. I want to date him" guy), here's some questions to ask yourself:

1) What is your vibe throughout the interaction with a girl? How does it change? Do you adapt it as you move things forward?

2) Do you show desire towards that girl when interacting with her (like I've been building the habit of triangulating my gaze from her right eye to her left eye to her lips and back every couple seconds to build more sexual tension)? Do you stand close to her? Do you get her investing, leaning towards you and touching you? This is something I've realized with myself I need to do more.

3) How well do you handle transitions? Transitions moving the conversation to topics that are more sexual / relationship based? What frames are you setting when these topics come up to reach your goals (by this, I mean if you want a ONS you would frame differently than if you want a casual relationship)?

4) Are you physically as well as verbally escalating your conversations with women? Do you use sexual-prizing, chase frames, escalation ladders, sex gambits/talk?

5) You said "I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that". These are all great and make for a great boyfriend candidate. But are you using sexual tension? Pregnant pauses in your conversations? Do you get girls to qualify themselves to you? How good of a conversationalist are you? Do you tease girls and then tell THEM to stop playing with you so much (making it HER fault)? Do you hold your frame and lead the conversation/interaction or are you letting her take the lead / expecting her to make a move (this applies to all stages of the seduction process)? How much physical touch are you using?

The lover is the loser with sex appeal. Are you showing sex appeal in your actions and words (or lack thereof)? That's the area I think you should look at.

Hope this helps (and don't forget to trust the process when things get tough!)

NBW
Hey NBW, thanks for the reply. These are REALLY good, thought-provoking questions. Let me ask you this though: By asking these questions, are you saying your thought is that it's definitely my interaction/conversation causing the issues? I'm thinking it's my perception beforehand. Like right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover. And therefore this is why things downstream are such a struggle to go anywhere. Are you saying you disagree with that possibility?
 

ElderPrice

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11/3/19 Additional thoughts

After thinking about it more, I definitely have two other issues really holding me back at the moment.

1. I definitely have performance anxiety for when the deed finally happens. I'm just convinced I'm going to be terrible at it. Not in the sense of moves or positions, but in the sense of organ functionality. I'm convinced Elder Jr just won't cooperate. He'll probably struggle to get hard and then when he does he'll probably explode in a matter of seconds. So this is definitely holding me back. I read Chase's article on performance anxiety and it definitely helped a little. I presume that this is just something I'm going to have to fail at a lot with cold approach girls before finally getting used to it. Not really something I look forward to, but what other choice is there?

2. In a way, this ties in to #1. In the past few months, I've become pretty scared about moving things forward with any girl in my social circle. I fear for my reputation. Convinced I'm going to be a disaster in the bedroom, I just haven't had the desire to escalate with the social circle girls that are clearly into me. I'm petrified my inexperience will get around. I mean, I don't care in the sense that this isn't a super close social circle, so I can walk away if I had to. But I'd simply just prefer to have a reputation as a great sex partner. There's a couple girls in this social circle that I'm pretty sure are good, kind people who wouldn't talk about anything bad or say anything to hurt my reputation, but I don't know that for sure.

As a result of these two, I've been trying to force myself to make sure I'm doing more cold approach in new venues.
 

NewBeeWinner

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Hey NBW, thanks for the reply. These are REALLY good, thought-provoking questions. Let me ask you this though: By asking these questions, are you saying your thought is that it's definitely my interaction/conversation causing the issues? I'm thinking it's my perception beforehand. Like right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover. And therefore this is why things downstream are such a struggle to go anywhere. Are you saying you disagree with that possibility?
Hey ElderPrice,

Good question. Here's my thoughts on that:

Yes, it's definitely your interaction/conversation causing the issues.

Let me propose to you this thought. Do you ever look at a girl you've never met or seen before and think "oh I definitely want her as a girlfriend" or do you think "I want to meet that girl and see if she's fit to be a girlfriend/lover/fwb/etc."?

The issue you are talking about (being "placed in a category right off the bat as soon as you're looked at") is mixing two different things:

First is preselection. Does this make a difference in how you are seen? Yes. If a girl notices you with other girls, you get a bonus. But do you need to be seen with other girls? Not necessarily. You can be the quiet, mysterious guy just relaxing and casually being social with those around him and still get a bonus. BUT what if you're being creepy, not talking to anyone sitting in a corner by yourself with a sad look, staring down girls or creepishly smiling at people? Or what if you're being a complete social butterfly, but you don't show particular interest to any girl? You'll definitely lose points if a girl sees you the first way (and this will likely lead her to brushing you off AT THE START of you beginning to talk to her or open her). The second way, you won't lose points UNTIL you fail to show HER interest and she thinks "oh he's just being social. He must want me as a friend. I could always use more friends!"

Second is your fundamentals that impact how a girl INITIALLY views you. If you have stronger, tighter fundamentals, then yes, you are more likely to be PERCEIVED as a lover. But if your interaction shows otherwise, well, she's going to think otherwise. Why do you think guys who are balding, a different race, are shorter, are really tall, or have some other fundamental "disadvantage" look wise can still do great with girls? Because they have game, great logistics, and move fast. Look at Alek's articles on the 4 pillars of seduction.

So to answer you more directly, if your fundamentals aren't tight, then what it impacts is your PERCEIVED lover value INITIALLY, giving you a disadvantage from the start. But this can be changed and overcome with strong game, good logistics, moving fast, setting the right frames, etc. Better fundamentals just makes everything easier and increases your absolute value/lover value. Now if you're acting weird, being a loner, seem distressed, not socializing (or over-socializing) before a girl interacts with you and she notices this, you'll have to have better game, logistics, etc. to make up for those bad first impressions.

So the one sentence answer is: poor fundamentals or poor preselection (aka "right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover") puts you at a disadvantage from the start BUT these can be overcome with solid game, good logistics, moving fast, her being in a good mood, you being in a good mood (aka positive emotions, good vibe, having momentum on your side), etc.

Hope that helps.

NBW
 

ElderPrice

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I gotcha. You're not disagreeing, you're just saying if one's first impression fundamentals aren't stellar, it can be made up with post-first-impression game.

At the same time, it would obviously help to address the first impression issues. lol
 

ElderPrice

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11/15/19

Not much of an update. I'm getting my new hair/facial hair styles at the barber today so I'm eager to see in the coming weeks how they affect women's behaviors toward me. Still working on improving my wardrobe.

Had two dates this week with different girls. One of them isn't worth mentioning. The other is just an interesting reference point, but I can tell it's not going to go anywhere.

This is a super cutie, conservative girl I met, I don't know, 8-10 months ago at one particular bar. Danced with her, got her number. I tried multiple times to propose a meet up, but she would go silent after asking. Occasionally she would text me asking if I was going to that bar again. A couple times we'd bump into each other at that bar even without attempting to coordinate. Each time she was very happy to see me and loved dancing with me. At one point I gave up on her. Maybe 6 months later I bumped into her again at a different bar. Played it cool, caught up with her, and even directly asked again if we wanted to try to get together again, acknowledging that we went silent on each other for a long time. She said yes. Bumped into her a couple more times after this coincidentally. Then in the last month or so I figured what the hell and tried hard to get a meetup.

She finally agreed, we found a time, and met. After this date, I'm still convinced at my hypothesis that girls just aren't excited or thinking about having sex with me right from the get go. She was just like all the other dates I mentioned here. No IOIs (playing with hair, leaning in, doe eyes, nothing like this). Minimal if any flirting. Wouldn't even reciprocate a touch on the arm. Tried as many things as possible. Deep diving, qualifying... I set the date (coffee/tea). Tried to flirt and turn the conversation as sexual as possible. She didn't look entirely comfortable when pushing that way. The date was no more than an hour. I proposed going to nearby outdoor mall and walk around for a bit. She said sure. As we got to the parking lot she said ehhh maybe not, it's getting late (it was only 9pm). I persisted and she agreed. We walked around and nothing changed. Didn't warm up.

Really my one takeaway from all this is that I seem to be doing well at persisting. When we were chatting at how crazy it was that it took 8-10 months after meeting before finally hanging out together one on one, she said the big reason was how persistent I was and how I kept busting her balls every time she gave an excuse for why she couldn't schedule a date. This is really the only reason why I'm mentioning this date. Evidence that persistence doesn't seem to be my issue.
 

Mr.Rob

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Hey Elder Price, I read your 1st post of your journal. Interesting story...

How far have you come since that first post or where are you at presently? Quite curious. Pullin for you bro.
 

ElderPrice

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Hey Elder Price, I read your 1st post of your journal. Interesting story...

How far have you come since that first post or where are you at presently? Quite curious. Pullin for you bro.
Hey Rob. Thanks for the kind words.

*re-reads first post*

Well, I've made some progress, but still very little results. Basically none. I'd say I've made progress simply by understanding more about girls and the process than I did then when I started this journal, and I made very good progress on getting out of the depression/moodiness.

Got I think two LR-'s since the first post, but still haven't been able to go all the way, and still can't figure out where exactly I'm failing.

At this point, I don't know how many dates I've been on. Maybe 60 or so? And aside from those 2 flukes, they just don't end even close to how we want them to. Seppuku was certain the issue was how I was running the date and that I was just messing it up in some manner.

That explanation just hasn't felt right to me. I've always had the gut feeling that it's not that girls are into me and I blow it, but instead that they just were never really into me in the first place, and that I only got their numbers and got them out on dates because I guess I'm doing a good job showing that I'm a cool guy and not a weirdo. Then the instant I start escalating, they don't just token resist, they full resist. For instance, if I touch a date's arm, she literally never reciprocates. Dates also show literally zero IOIs. No hair playing, no leaning in, no touching, no doe eyes, nothing like that. And me flirting and turning the conversation sexual hasn't helped.

Also, anytime I read accounts here of, say, conversations guys have with girls, or if I hear some examples of friends in person of how girls interact with them, I'm usually speechless because they just describe things that I never hear. Those girls sounds much more interested than the girls I talk to.

And that's where I'm still largely stuck. Just seems like women INSTANTLY rule me out as a fast sex option, or as any sex option. And of course it's very hard to diagnose because what do you do? Seppuku is the expert, but I'm the only one that sees what I see. So I don't know who to believe. What I can say is I definitely have tried to follow the GC date model(s) as best as possible and it hasn't made a difference.

The girls just don't get aroused on the date. And since they NEVER chase me to start with, and since I can't get ANYTHING from online apps despite multiple attempts at getting quality photos, that leads me to suspect that something about me is just instantly turning them off WAYYY upstream. And that's why the dates are always a total dud. The girl is meeting me already decided that she doesn't want to have sex, but I impressed her enough to earn an hour of her time. Maybe she wants to see if I'm a great boyfriend candidate? Just my current theory.

I recently got over months of medical issues, so hopefully soon I can go back to approaching at the same rate I was before.

Thanks again Rob. Hopefully that made sense!
 

Seppuku

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Hey EP,

Well I have to admit that your case is hard to crack. You've got 60 dates, mean you are doing something right - at least in the beginning. Out of these 60, you should have at the very least 25% (but probably much more) of girls firmly interested. I don't see a girl accepting a date if she doesn't have at least some degree of interest.

Yet, you end up with just 2 LR- ???

Something is going on during the date that causes her to just switch off.

I've suspected (1) you are too gamey, or (2) killing off sexual tension somehow, or (3) coming across as too friendly or too boyfriendish.

Not sure which one. Like you say, I'd have to be physically there to see for myself. My guess is the problem bugging you must be something quite obvious to an experienced outsider.

To debug you, I have suggested that you try radically different routes, and report the results. I still stand by what I suggested.

Here was my thought: forget about game, and touching, and spotting her IOI and other things. Instead, focus on the process. Stick to it, no matter what. It goes like this. A one hour date, in which you avoid gamey stuff and just make her talk. After one hour you end the date, and ask her to come with you (whatever the excuse). Take her to your car, then isolate her. Use persistence wherever needed - like a lot. Once isolated, escalate.

The above displays persistence, confidence, outcome independence, and sexual aggressiveness, which are all extremely seductive qualities to a woman, so it clearly stands a chance to work. Given the rate of success of what you are currently doing, you've got nothing to lose. Quite the opposite. You may fail a couple of times at first (or not!) but as you gain confidence in the process, your sexual attractiveness will magically increase.

In any case, if you try the above and report the results, it may give us clues to debug your current problem.

Seppuku

PS. You reported acne issues. Its only relevance is with respect to your own self esteem and self confidence - which in turn affect your interactions. The masculine qualities displayed by an experienced seducer completely trump physical appearance, so your acne is NOT an issue per se. Personally I was pulling off great deeds when I was overweight (i.e. like 25-26 BMI).
 
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Mr.Rob

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Hey EP,

Gotcha. Yeah Seppuku makes some good points here. Its weird your having so much success getting dates but only 2 LR:- 's from 60 dates.

Usually if a girl is totally not interested they won't take the time out of their day to meet up for a date. So there has to be at least a mild/low level of attraction that you seem to be consistently getting. Which is very good!

I've certainly had plenty of lays come from girls/dates with only a mild/low level of attraction. On these girls I've found its mainly about compliance. They don't even have to be ultra attracted as much as agreeing to follow your lead. And you'll be surprised at what uninterested girls agree to when you start focusing on the compliance half of the equation.

Of these 60 dates how many are you asking to come home with you at the end of the date? Ideally you should be asking every girl to come home with you even if you don't think they'll say yes. Just to get in the habit of doing it.

Another thing to consider is getting some professional help via dating coaching. As seppukku mentions if he was there he'd be able to pinpoint things pretty quickly. But on your own you can bang your head against the wall for months before finally hitting on what it is. Something to consider... I know GC has skype coaching starting at just $200 per session.
 

ElderPrice

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Hmm rather than going back down this discussion, let me offer this to help better understand where my brain is at. I'm going to list questions I have, in no particular order:

1. - What's going through a girl's mind if she agrees to a date?
- Has she already decided she's DTF?
- Is she not planning on sex at all?
- Does she consciously really want sex to happen, but knows she will put up resistance/tests along the whole way?

2. Can the date itself be incongruent?
- If I'm a cool, confident guy, why would I not just say let's meet for coffee -> meet, pay for, and pick up coffee -> then say "alright now let's head back to my/your place to drink this"?

3. Similarly, how is a date supposed to compete with tinder? If a beautiful girl wants sex, why would she not just hop on tinder, swipe for 5 minutes, then have her plans for the night?
- Isn't the date itself slotting you at least partially into the boyfriend category right off the bat?

4. So should I just not even bother with the idea of warming a girl up to the idea of sex, and get her demonstrating some IOIs?
- Should I only focus on persisting?
- How do you do all this on a 30-60 minute coffee date if you're following the template? Seems like just trying to deep dive one or two things about her takes 30 minutes.
- At this rate, you need to start persisting from the get go, no? Especially if it's going to take 3 asks to finally get a yes. Or 3 touches before she finally (hopefully) reciprocates.

5. So what's the actual stop sign from a girl? I might pose this question on the General board later. A lot of this advice sounds to me like 'just keep going even if she's saying no or clearly not interested.' This is a mindset I'm definitely not comfortable with.
- Do I really have to ask her 3 times at EVERY step of the process and use that rule of thumb as a stop sign?

6. Assuming for the sake of discussion that I'm not persisting enough at each step of the process, how is this supposed to be fun? I thought the process was supposed to be fun. It's not fun for me if every step of the process needs to be a high-pressure sales job.
- Isn't it more fun to find girls that actually want to follow your lead?

7. Should I not be making an effort to get to know a girl on a date? Lately I've been working on setting a more selective mindset, to try and help me seem like more of a challenge. Also to help me automatically ask screening questions that actually matter to me and hopefully get the girl qualifying.
- Is this a wrong approach?
- Should I be thinking of the date as just Step 1 in the process of guaranteed first date sex?
- Is this what the girl is expecting too?

That's all I can think of for now. Hopefully that helps illustrate the questions going through my mind in the last month or two.
 

Seppuku

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Hey EP,

I'll give it a try. Mr Rob is welcome to step in with his own perspective as well.

1. - What's going through a girl's mind if she agrees to a date?
- Has she already decided she's DTF?
- Is she not planning on sex at all?
- Does she consciously really want sex to happen, but knows she will put up resistance/tests along the whole way?
I have had some girls telling me they were ready to follow me in bed, if it came to that, before our first date. BUT I would say the majority of them do not know beforehand. Most of the time I would say her wanting sex is not a conscious process, more something growing in the background without them being aware - at first. They really become aware they desire it when they turn on during the final escalation.

2. Can the date itself be incongruent?
- If I'm a cool, confident guy, why would I not just say let's meet for coffee -> meet, pay for, and pick up coffee -> then say "alright now let's head back to my/your place to drink this"?
The scenario you describe here would ring big ASD alarms in her head. It helps if you make a little bit of human connection. So it's more:
" let's meet for coffee -> meet, pay for, and pick up coffee -> sit down, make her talk about here and display genuine interest -> then say "alright now let's head back to my/your place to [INSERT EXCUSE HERE]"

3. Similarly, how is a date supposed to compete with tinder? If a beautiful girl wants sex, why would she not just hop on tinder, swipe for 5 minutes, then have her plans for the night?
No, because most of them don't consciously know what they want. Plus, it could be a date out of Tinder :)
- Isn't the date itself slotting you at least partially into the boyfriend category right off the bat?
I've been to over 130 first dates I think. Answer is clearly NO if you run the date the right way. I assure you that if you take her from first meet ever in a coffee shop, to your bed, in less than two hours time, it will definitely not look like the boyfriend slot. However if you take her to a formal restaurant, and didn't make a move before date 3, you will definitely look like the BF candidate.

4. So should I just not even bother with the idea of warming a girl up to the idea of sex, and get her demonstrating some IOIs?
I would normally say yes. However we have to keep in mind that there is something you are doing incorrectly during the date, which turns her off. We have to keep in mind that something could very well uncalibrated game. So I would advise that, for the moment, you avoid "game", and only concentrate on genuinely listening to her story.
- Should I only focus on persisting?
- How do you do all this on a 30-60 minute coffee date if you're following the template? Seems like just trying to deep dive one or two things about her takes 30 minutes.
- At this rate, you need to start persisting from the get go, no? Especially if it's going to take 3 asks to finally get a yes. Or 3 touches before she finally (hopefully) reciprocates.
No you don't persist from the get go. You spend the whole 60 minutes (OK, maybe up to 90) making her talk, and listen to her story. Then you end the date and get her to follow you in your car and isolate her. Here is where you apply persistence if required. In the Tactics forum, I recently wrote a post "she likes you, she follows you". Take a look.

5. So what's the actual stop sign from a girl? I might pose this question on the General board later. A lot of this advice sounds to me like 'just keep going even if she's saying no or clearly not interested.' This is a mindset I'm definitely not comfortable with.
- Do I really have to ask her 3 times at EVERY step of the process and use that rule of thumb as a stop sign?
The thing is, you cannot know if it's a real NO unless you have persisted and persisted a few times to no avail. I wasn't comfortable with this, too, at the beginning, but it pays to go over your discomfort. Remember that this kind of persistence is hugely sexy to a woman.

6. Assuming for the sake of discussion that I'm not persisting enough at each step of the process, how is this supposed to be fun? I thought the process was supposed to be fun. It's not fun for me if every step of the process needs to be a high-pressure sales job.
- Isn't it more fun to find girls that actually want to follow your lead?
The whole process is extremely fun (for you and her) when you are comfortable running it. You may have to try it a few times before getting comfortable. But at first it will go against your comfort zone.

7. Should I not be making an effort to get to know a girl on a date? Lately I've been working on setting a more selective mindset, to try and help me seem like more of a challenge. Also to help me automatically ask screening questions that actually matter to me and hopefully get the girl qualifying.
- Is this a wrong approach?
- Should I be thinking of the date as just Step 1 in the process of guaranteed first date sex?
- Is this what the girl is expecting too?
Before you become intimate with the girl, time is running against you. So if your "effort to get to know" the girl is taking too long (e.g. three dates) you run a high chance of hitting the wall before you get anywhere. On the other hand, once you became intimate with her, now you have plenty of time to get to know her. So I would spend the bulk of my 60 / 90 minutes focusing on listening to her story, and normally attempt to isolate on date 1. That's about the time you actually need to "get to know her".
Having a couple of screening questions is always a good thing, as you are showing her that you are not automatically sold to her. It is not essential to seduction though.
There is no such thing as "guaranteed first date sex".
 

Mr.Rob

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Seppuku covers pretty much your questions pretty good. Yeah no you def shouldn't be persisting and hard closing from the get go with pressue. That's not at all what this should look like. You persist at key moments of transition.

You know at the end of the day the decisive factor of a woman going home with you boils down to how you make her feel. Your impact on her emotions.

I kinda get the feeling (and correct me if Im wrong) that you've gone on 60 dates and pretty much done the same thing every time (maybe a few tweaks here and there) and keep getting the same results (no sex). Usually if guys get hung up that bad its turning approaches/phone numbers into dates, so there's obviously something that happens on the date itself as we've pointed out.

You know based on the questions you ask its almost like you have no clue what the process should even look like. Have you ever heard of the game Super Seducer? Its a great interactive learning tool to learn and watch in action what the vibe/conversations/process of seduction should actually be like. Plus he teaches you a bunch of great tech along the way.

Its just $10 and you get it on Steam. He has Super Seducer 1 and 2. Both are good but I'd recommend 1 over 2 for learning purposes. And again I'd highly consider investing in some professional help to just diagnose the issue and move onto the next thing. You've figured out the hardest part extremely well of approaching girls to get them interested to come out on dates. You just need to figure out the last half of the equation here and I think you'll be where you want to be.

Sepukku do you agree here?
 

ElderPrice

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Wow didn't expect replies like that. Thanks guys. Some thoughts:

Regarding the suggestion of pulling back on game during dates, I swear if anything I'm already doing this. I struggle to remember things from what I've read or even advice I've received on these boards. It's too much. So 99% of what I do is instinct. As I internalize/memorize game stuff it slowly shows itself, but no, I don't sit on dates with my mind racing at a million miles per hour plotting game. All I do is try to learn about the girl and let her do as much talking as possible.

Regarding the following: "Then you end the date and get her to follow you in your car and isolate her. Here is where you apply persistence if required."
This is how this would go for me:
- We talk all throughout the date
- Like any girl I go on a date with, she's cold, not touchy, not flirty
- At some point, whether before we walk to the car or right as we walk up to the car, I have to ask or say to get in the car.
- She's going to say no

How do you persist here?
"Here we are at my car. Would you like to come in with me?"
"No."
"Come on. Let's chill."
"No."
"It's cold out (or whatever)."
"No. I'm not getting in the car with you."
......
"K bye."

Matter of fact, this happened the other night on a date. We got coffee. Talked for an hour. I said let's walk around across the street (driving distance). She said yes. We walk to the parking lot. I said let's take one car (translation: get in the car with me). She said no, very clearly. Surely you're not saying I stand there for 5 minutes pleading with her? Even girls where I have asked repeatedly didn't make a difference. They were 100% made up that they weren't going to follow me in these cases and no amount of asking repeatedly was going to change their minds.

Regarding: "You know at the end of the day the decisive factor of a woman going home with you boils down to how you make her feel. Your impact on her emotions."

Very true. Then these women don't feel anything about me. And who knows what they felt going into the date. My hunch is barely anything. Maybe like "Meh he's worth an hour. Maybe he'll surprise me." In my opinion, I have zero edge and zero bad boy-ness. I think this is a huge factor. Not really sure how to change that besides covering myself with tattoos.

"You know based on the questions you ask its almost like you have no clue what the process should even look like."

Maybe? Meet for coffee/drinks -> Let her talk -> maybe go to 2nd venue -> isolate somewhere, preferably at someone's place -> go for sex. I've read all the articles about it. I sound confused because I am. And that's also why my thought is I must be dying at the start of an interaction. She doesn't at all see me as a lover option. So therefore everything I try to become a lover has no shot no matter what I do. Maybe I'm charming enough for girls to figure what the hell and feel no risk in giving me their numbers and meeting me for coffee, but when push comes to shove, they just really really don't want to have sex with me. That's my theory at least. And female friends seemed to confirm that I'm definitely not coming across as a bad boy. Not even a little.

Again, I just can't reconcile what you guys are recommending vs. what my eyes are seeing. My eyes see girls that firmly don't want to follow my lead and clearly, emphatically say no when I try to move for isolation. And along these lines, when I say that the persistence we're talking about makes me uncomfortable, I'm not talking in a comfort zone kind of way. I mean in a this-feels-like-rape kind of way. These girls aren't giving wishy washy no's. They are pretty darn clearly saying no.

Perhaps we can shelve persistence for now and explore other possibilities? I don't know. Hopefully it's clear how confused I am. Apologies if none of this reply makes sense. For some reason I felt like doing this at 3 in the morning :p
 
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