ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

JacobPalmer

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Jun 24, 2019
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Millions of years of evolution has physically conditioned our bodies to be omnivores. Even our tooth structure, digestive enzymes, etc., are all clearly omnivorous. There are micronutrients essential to human health which are much more abundant in animal foods than in plant foods. As a result, if you want to go totally herbivore, you need to be extremely careful in managing your micronutrients in a way that omnivorous diets donʼt require. Itʼs a lot of work and most people get it wrong.
Careful, this is totally incorrect. While we can eat meat (just like dogs CAN eat vegetables), we're not designed to be omnivores/carnivores.

Our tooth structure is very similar to chimps, who eat a predominantly plant based diet (fruits mostly). And if you want to get really scientific, while some apes/chimps do hunt, their total protein intake from animal sources is less than 5% of their caloric intake, which is basically nothing.

Digestive enzymes - compared to a carnivore or omnivore, we're not even close to being able to digest meat well. The digestive enzymes that we have are designed to break down small amounts of protein (found in fruits/veggies, etc). Even the concentration of these protein digesting enzymes is somewhere like 1000X less concentrated than that in a dog. Humans digest very little of the meat they consume (I think it's somewhere around 20%). Even looking at our digestive track and the length of it, it's much more similar to a herbivore than a carnivore/omnivore as it has a longer digestive tract. Carnivores have very short digestive tracts in order to expell the meat they consume faster, while herbivores are long to absorb more nutrients from their food and break it down further. (side note, protein that stays in your gut for too long eventually begins to rot...)

The only micronutrient that would be more abundant in meat products COULD be B12, everything else is easily sourced from plants.

Now, while there are some people who are vitamin deficient who go on plant based diets, if you go whole foods based you should be ok. Because keep in mind, you can still be vegan by eating potatoe chips and bread all day, in which case you wouldn't get any nutrients/vitamins.

Testosterone....what?? Your body builds it's own testosterone, especially if you work out lifting weights. You don't need an external source of testosterone. If anything eating meat products would throw your hormonal balance off, not help it.

I felt great, looked great, and I seem to remember my sex drive was better than usual.
This is because you were working out hard, not because you were consuming more meat. Exercise and lifting weights increases testosterone production which in turn increases sex drive. I'm willing to bet if you didn't work out and went on a mostly meat based diet your sex drive would plummet.
 

Científico

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Dec 20, 2018
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Elder, I strongly disagree with much of what ThePhoenix said in his last post, but I doubt you are interested in a debate about diets on your journal, and JacobPalmer already did a decent job responding.

Suffice it to say, one thing I kinda do agree on is that you need to make sure you are eating a balanced diet, filled with leafy greens, cruciferous vegetables, beans, fruit, whole grains, nuts, and flax seeds. Get enough of all of these and you need not worry about your nutrients (since you are getting basically everything you need), while avoiding the health issues linked to dairy/meat consumption such as diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, obesity, etc.

The only thing you might need to take a supplement for is vitamin B12, which is found more easily in meat and the human body has a hard time absorbing - (for this reason its recommended by many health orgs that anyone over the age of 50, meat consumer or not, take B12 supplements).

And of course, exercise regularly for optimal health!

How many calories do you two eat each day? Can you eat out all the time or are you largely forced to prepare most of your meals at home?
I honestly don't keep track. I skip breakfast (unless I work out in the morning that day), and since I work out in the field a lot in a sales job, I have to resort to an app on my phone to often find plant-based food for lunch where I happen to be that day. The good thing is, there are so many options available these days, and they are getting more plentiful, so being plant-based is much easier than it used to be.
 

ElderPrice

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Jun 11, 2018
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Cientifico, no worries my man. Jacob has stated his opinion before in here on the subject and I briefly talked about it:

I have observed that my skin gets better when I greatly reduce carbs. Carbs defined as bread, potatoes, sugar, rice, etc. Couple problems though. This doesn't clear me 100% no matter how good I am with the diet, and any diet that severely restricts carbs or animal I don't think is going to be enough calories for me. If I ate 2000 calories a day, I'd turn into a toothpick. I need around 3000 to maintain my muscular build and strength.. maybe 3500.

Plus I can't envision maintaining this when out with friends or traveling. Everything has carbs or animal in it. Sure I could eat salads, but I'd have to eat a shitload of them to get my calories.

Then on top of that I'd have to actually roughly count how much protein I'd be getting each day. Anyone that has made intermediate strength gains in the weight room knows you simply have to eat enough protein to recover and get stronger. It's hard enough having to watch my carbs, which you also need to recover.

Anyway, that's just where I'm coming from. And remember this all came up as a counter recommendation against taking accutane to clear one's skin.
 

ThePhoenix

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Certainly donʼt want to get into side-track debates in your journal! Jacob does make some interesting points Iʼll have to take into future consideration. Thereʼs obviously going to be a spectrum between obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores. I do agree that many people would do well to eat less meat. Also, the way that many animal products today are produced is unhealthy (hormone injections etc.), but that also applies to many plant products, too (pesticides, refinement, etc.). I just think moderation, or the middle ground, is in general a safer bet when it comes to anything in life.

Just to note, Iʼm not a complete moron who thinks that you eat testosterone. It actually canʼt be absorbed digestively at all. In men itʼs made mainly in the Leydig cells of the testes, thus the name. Steroid hormones are synthesized from cholesterol. The body makes its own cholesterol and at least in principle this should be enough since itʼs under homeostatic regulation, but I have seen in various places claims that increased dietary cholesterol can increase testosterone; I havenʼt thoroughly researched this yet and there are also health risks, so Iʼm not about to eat a ton of eggs every day just yet, although there are people who swear by it. What I can say is that just in my own personal experience, at a point where I was eating very little meat, my HDL and LDL (types of cholesterol) were both on the low side, and this was also a point where my T was quite low. There may have been other factors at play, and I wouldnʼt doubt if I may have been able to correct this purely from plant sources, but it would require a lot of care and attention.

And I totally agree, if I hadʼve been sitting on my ass while eating the way I was eating under the trainerʼs guidance, the effects would have been disastrous, just from the calories alone! One could probably argue that genetics and exercise play a bigger role in health than diet, but I havenʼt really looked into it.

Iʼm going to look into B12, especially since I eat less meat than most people.

You mention that thereʼs an association between carbs and your acne. Have you carefully differentiated between simple and complex carbs? One “gotcha” I have found is that commercially baked bread products, for instance, that claim to be “whole grain” etc., often have added sugars (which go by many other names, like high fructose corn syrup, maltodextrin, etc.), which really defeats the purpose! Commercial bakeries tend to load up on the sodium, too. Ugh. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a lot of the food out there is really unhealthy!
 

ElderPrice

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ThePhoenix said:
Certainly donʼt want to get into side-track debates in your journal! Jacob does make some interesting points Iʼll have to take into future consideration. Thereʼs obviously going to be a spectrum between obligate carnivores and obligate herbivores. I do agree that many people would do well to eat less meat. Also, the way that many animal products today are produced is unhealthy (hormone injections etc.), but that also applies to many plant products, too (pesticides, refinement, etc.). I just think moderation, or the middle ground, is in general a safer bet when it comes to anything in life.

Just to note, Iʼm not a complete moron who thinks that you eat testosterone. It actually canʼt be absorbed digestively at all. In men itʼs made mainly in the Leydig cells of the testes, thus the name. Steroid hormones are synthesized from cholesterol. The body makes its own cholesterol and at least in principle this should be enough since itʼs under homeostatic regulation, but I have seen in various places claims that increased dietary cholesterol can increase testosterone; I havenʼt thoroughly researched this yet and there are also health risks, so Iʼm not about to eat a ton of eggs every day just yet, although there are people who swear by it. What I can say is that just in my own personal experience, at a point where I was eating very little meat, my HDL and LDL (types of cholesterol) were both on the low side, and this was also a point where my T was quite low. There may have been other factors at play, and I wouldnʼt doubt if I may have been able to correct this purely from plant sources, but it would require a lot of care and attention.

And I totally agree, if I hadʼve been sitting on my ass while eating the way I was eating under the trainerʼs guidance, the effects would have been disastrous, just from the calories alone! One could probably argue that genetics and exercise play a bigger role in health than diet, but I havenʼt really looked into it.

Iʼm going to look into B12, especially since I eat less meat than most people.

You mention that thereʼs an association between carbs and your acne. Have you carefully differentiated between simple and complex carbs? One “gotcha” I have found is that commercially baked bread products, for instance, that claim to be “whole grain” etc., often have added sugars (which go by many other names, like high fructose corn syrup, maltodextrin, etc.), which really defeats the purpose! Commercial bakeries tend to load up on the sodium, too. Ugh. One thing I think we can all agree on is that a lot of the food out there is really unhealthy!
I think I've noticed that my skin reacts a little better to healthy carbs vs. unhealthy ones. But I think it more has to do with the blood sugar/insulin spike that accompanies eating carbs. Just my theory based on observations and the very limited science I've looked into.
 

ElderPrice

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10/27/19 Update. Main takeaway: Taking time off helped see where my weaknesses might be.

Not much of an update for the past month or so. Been dealing with the IBD flare most of the time. It's slowly but surely getting better, but it hasn't been linear progress. One week it'll be bad relatively speaking, then for a few days it'll be 90% better, then it'll get a little worse again, etc. On average it's definitely going in the right direction and currently I'm like 90/95% in the clear. At least today I am! If it sticks for a couple weeks then I'll be confident that it's finally behind me.

Because there were a lot of bad days where I couldn't go out, I used this opportunity to reflect on my skills with women and to assess where I think I'm pretty good and where my weak spots may be. On the occasional nights where I felt good I went out mainly just to practice. I didn't have much of a desire to try to pull since I didn't know if I'd feel good a few hours later, or the next morning, etc.

After reflecting and practicing, I think I'm actually pretty good interacting with women. I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that. I think I persist well when presented with an opportunity. I also think I establish comfort, or something like that, pretty well because I don't think I've ever gotten a fake number, at least not to my knowledge.

But things seemingly always go south the second I move to do something just the two of us, or attempt a pull. Just my two cents, but I don't think they're giving me token resistance. I think they're giving me full blown resistance.

I met with a female friend recently to ask for her feedback, particularly on my vibe and how I come across. We're always out at the same places and she always sees me interacting with girls. She says I'm awesome. Vibe is great, playfulness is great, etc. She made a very WTF face when I asked her for feedback and saying ladies just don't seem receptive (to go sexual). She was very shocked because the ElderPrice she sees looks like a lady's man and always seems to have many happy girls around him.

I told her specifically that girls always back off when I try to take things further. Either to arrange a meetup just the two of us, or if it seems possible, go for the pull. I tried to get her opinion on my sexiness. Eventually, she seemed to more or less confirm the suspicion I was getting at: I must be coming across as too quality or boyfriendy, and not at all like someone you want to fuck immediately.

I've always had a suspicion this is the case. I have a few guy friends who have dropped lines here and there about how women interact with them. One friend was telling me how all the time he'll open a girl just a little, sit down with his friends, and they will walk up to him and give him their numbers. Another friend who frequents the same places as me was telling me about how one time he met a girl there, connected on Facebook after a conversation, left the set to go hang out with friends, then not even an hour later she started texting him herself. Stuff like 'hey hot stuff.' Super easy IOIs. And this was a standard early 20s 8 or 9. My point is, I've never had anything like this happen to me a single time. Not one woman ever has offered to give me her number, and girls never text first. I know this is normal and I'm not saying I'm expecting the reverse. But if the reverse is happening, I take that as a sign that you've got it. You're attracting women that want to fuck you and that's the place you want to be. Since I can't even dumb luck find a girl like that after 1000+ approaches, I'm taking that as a big red flag that I'm just not being seen as a fast sex option.

My experience with online apps is another piece of supporting evidence. They've NEVER worked for me, despite asking photographer friends on 3 occasions to help take pictures of me. None have been sexy. No swipes from anything that's not a manatee to save my life. I take this as evidence that it's not my verbal game that's sinking me in the real world, it's just that girls are instantly ruling me out as a fast sex option.

Going back to my female friend, she seemingly confirmed all this by saying stuff like 'yes there's other guys at the places we go to that are definitely more bad boy and they're tough to compete with.'

We both were stumped on trying to think how I can make myself more like that. It's not like these other guys are dressing much different, if at all. And they don't take whatever they're doing to any extreme and go overboard. And I'm not doing anything 'wrong' myself. I don't know. Next time I go to the barber I'll tell him blank canvas, make me sexier and see what happens there. I'll keep trying to find better clothes. There's other things on my list I want to do to boost my edge like learn a martial art, but I'm waiting for this illness to pass before adding new physical stress.

So anyway, yeah, that's where I'm at after dealing with this medical issue for the last month. I'll scour GC for articles and board posts on how to do better at coming across as a fast sex option.
 

NewBeeWinner

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Hey ElderPrice,

Glad to hear taking some time was helpful!

Sounds like you've identified your sticking point in moving things forward - specifically with the "pull" and "escalation" transition phases of seduction. I'd check out the GC articles on these areas specifically and see what wisdom you can glean from them.

Just a word of warning to be careful comparing yourself to other guys. So sometimes girls initiate contact first with them or offer them their number first BUT how much does that really matter? I've had girls initiate contact first and had girls say "so do you want my number?", BUT what really matters is downstream of that. Are these guys actually getting results (i.e. getting lays from these girls)? That's where it matters. So to tweak your thinking a bit ('I take that as a sign that you've got it"), that isn't always the case. ALL it shows is that she's interested. End of story. Girls do this many many different ways and maybe you're not picking up on the signs girls show you.

Don't screen yourself out so quick.

I've seen a lot of successful seducers on here (myself, included) that aren't fans of online apps. It's totally different from day/night game approaching so don't be so hard on yourself here.

Finally, since I've been thinking about this myself as well (being more of a guy girls say "he's hot. I want to fuck him" instead of a "oh he's cute. I want to date him" guy), here's some questions to ask yourself:

1) What is your vibe throughout the interaction with a girl? How does it change? Do you adapt it as you move things forward?

2) Do you show desire towards that girl when interacting with her (like I've been building the habit of triangulating my gaze from her right eye to her left eye to her lips and back every couple seconds to build more sexual tension)? Do you stand close to her? Do you get her investing, leaning towards you and touching you? This is something I've realized with myself I need to do more.

3) How well do you handle transitions? Transitions moving the conversation to topics that are more sexual / relationship based? What frames are you setting when these topics come up to reach your goals (by this, I mean if you want a ONS you would frame differently than if you want a casual relationship)?

4) Are you physically as well as verbally escalating your conversations with women? Do you use sexual-prizing, chase frames, escalation ladders, sex gambits/talk?

5) You said "I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that". These are all great and make for a great boyfriend candidate. But are you using sexual tension? Pregnant pauses in your conversations? Do you get girls to qualify themselves to you? How good of a conversationalist are you? Do you tease girls and then tell THEM to stop playing with you so much (making it HER fault)? Do you hold your frame and lead the conversation/interaction or are you letting her take the lead / expecting her to make a move (this applies to all stages of the seduction process)? How much physical touch are you using?

The lover is the loser with sex appeal. Are you showing sex appeal in your actions and words (or lack thereof)? That's the area I think you should look at.

Hope this helps (and don't forget to trust the process when things get tough!)

NBW
 

ElderPrice

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238
NewBeeWinner said:
Hey ElderPrice,

Glad to hear taking some time was helpful!

Sounds like you've identified your sticking point in moving things forward - specifically with the "pull" and "escalation" transition phases of seduction. I'd check out the GC articles on these areas specifically and see what wisdom you can glean from them.

Just a word of warning to be careful comparing yourself to other guys. So sometimes girls initiate contact first with them or offer them their number first BUT how much does that really matter? I've had girls initiate contact first and had girls say "so do you want my number?", BUT what really matters is downstream of that. Are these guys actually getting results (i.e. getting lays from these girls)? That's where it matters. So to tweak your thinking a bit ('I take that as a sign that you've got it"), that isn't always the case. ALL it shows is that she's interested. End of story. Girls do this many many different ways and maybe you're not picking up on the signs girls show you.

Don't screen yourself out so quick.

I've seen a lot of successful seducers on here (myself, included) that aren't fans of online apps. It's totally different from day/night game approaching so don't be so hard on yourself here.

Finally, since I've been thinking about this myself as well (being more of a guy girls say "he's hot. I want to fuck him" instead of a "oh he's cute. I want to date him" guy), here's some questions to ask yourself:

1) What is your vibe throughout the interaction with a girl? How does it change? Do you adapt it as you move things forward?

2) Do you show desire towards that girl when interacting with her (like I've been building the habit of triangulating my gaze from her right eye to her left eye to her lips and back every couple seconds to build more sexual tension)? Do you stand close to her? Do you get her investing, leaning towards you and touching you? This is something I've realized with myself I need to do more.

3) How well do you handle transitions? Transitions moving the conversation to topics that are more sexual / relationship based? What frames are you setting when these topics come up to reach your goals (by this, I mean if you want a ONS you would frame differently than if you want a casual relationship)?

4) Are you physically as well as verbally escalating your conversations with women? Do you use sexual-prizing, chase frames, escalation ladders, sex gambits/talk?

5) You said "I flirt, frame, am very playful, smile and laugh, push/pull and all that". These are all great and make for a great boyfriend candidate. But are you using sexual tension? Pregnant pauses in your conversations? Do you get girls to qualify themselves to you? How good of a conversationalist are you? Do you tease girls and then tell THEM to stop playing with you so much (making it HER fault)? Do you hold your frame and lead the conversation/interaction or are you letting her take the lead / expecting her to make a move (this applies to all stages of the seduction process)? How much physical touch are you using?

The lover is the loser with sex appeal. Are you showing sex appeal in your actions and words (or lack thereof)? That's the area I think you should look at.

Hope this helps (and don't forget to trust the process when things get tough!)

NBW
Hey NBW, thanks for the reply. These are REALLY good, thought-provoking questions. Let me ask you this though: By asking these questions, are you saying your thought is that it's definitely my interaction/conversation causing the issues? I'm thinking it's my perception beforehand. Like right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover. And therefore this is why things downstream are such a struggle to go anywhere. Are you saying you disagree with that possibility?
 

ElderPrice

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space monkey
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Jun 11, 2018
Messages
238
11/3/19 Additional thoughts

After thinking about it more, I definitely have two other issues really holding me back at the moment.

1. I definitely have performance anxiety for when the deed finally happens. I'm just convinced I'm going to be terrible at it. Not in the sense of moves or positions, but in the sense of organ functionality. I'm convinced Elder Jr just won't cooperate. He'll probably struggle to get hard and then when he does he'll probably explode in a matter of seconds. So this is definitely holding me back. I read Chase's article on performance anxiety and it definitely helped a little. I presume that this is just something I'm going to have to fail at a lot with cold approach girls before finally getting used to it. Not really something I look forward to, but what other choice is there?

2. In a way, this ties in to #1. In the past few months, I've become pretty scared about moving things forward with any girl in my social circle. I fear for my reputation. Convinced I'm going to be a disaster in the bedroom, I just haven't had the desire to escalate with the social circle girls that are clearly into me. I'm petrified my inexperience will get around. I mean, I don't care in the sense that this isn't a super close social circle, so I can walk away if I had to. But I'd simply just prefer to have a reputation as a great sex partner. There's a couple girls in this social circle that I'm pretty sure are good, kind people who wouldn't talk about anything bad or say anything to hurt my reputation, but I don't know that for sure.

As a result of these two, I've been trying to force myself to make sure I'm doing more cold approach in new venues.
 

NewBeeWinner

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
248
Hey NBW, thanks for the reply. These are REALLY good, thought-provoking questions. Let me ask you this though: By asking these questions, are you saying your thought is that it's definitely my interaction/conversation causing the issues? I'm thinking it's my perception beforehand. Like right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover. And therefore this is why things downstream are such a struggle to go anywhere. Are you saying you disagree with that possibility?
Hey ElderPrice,

Good question. Here's my thoughts on that:

Yes, it's definitely your interaction/conversation causing the issues.

Let me propose to you this thought. Do you ever look at a girl you've never met or seen before and think "oh I definitely want her as a girlfriend" or do you think "I want to meet that girl and see if she's fit to be a girlfriend/lover/fwb/etc."?

The issue you are talking about (being "placed in a category right off the bat as soon as you're looked at") is mixing two different things:

First is preselection. Does this make a difference in how you are seen? Yes. If a girl notices you with other girls, you get a bonus. But do you need to be seen with other girls? Not necessarily. You can be the quiet, mysterious guy just relaxing and casually being social with those around him and still get a bonus. BUT what if you're being creepy, not talking to anyone sitting in a corner by yourself with a sad look, staring down girls or creepishly smiling at people? Or what if you're being a complete social butterfly, but you don't show particular interest to any girl? You'll definitely lose points if a girl sees you the first way (and this will likely lead her to brushing you off AT THE START of you beginning to talk to her or open her). The second way, you won't lose points UNTIL you fail to show HER interest and she thinks "oh he's just being social. He must want me as a friend. I could always use more friends!"

Second is your fundamentals that impact how a girl INITIALLY views you. If you have stronger, tighter fundamentals, then yes, you are more likely to be PERCEIVED as a lover. But if your interaction shows otherwise, well, she's going to think otherwise. Why do you think guys who are balding, a different race, are shorter, are really tall, or have some other fundamental "disadvantage" look wise can still do great with girls? Because they have game, great logistics, and move fast. Look at Alek's articles on the 4 pillars of seduction.

So to answer you more directly, if your fundamentals aren't tight, then what it impacts is your PERCEIVED lover value INITIALLY, giving you a disadvantage from the start. But this can be changed and overcome with strong game, good logistics, moving fast, setting the right frames, etc. Better fundamentals just makes everything easier and increases your absolute value/lover value. Now if you're acting weird, being a loner, seem distressed, not socializing (or over-socializing) before a girl interacts with you and she notices this, you'll have to have better game, logistics, etc. to make up for those bad first impressions.

So the one sentence answer is: poor fundamentals or poor preselection (aka "right off the bat as soon as I'm looked at, I'm being placed in some category that is NOT fast lover") puts you at a disadvantage from the start BUT these can be overcome with solid game, good logistics, moving fast, her being in a good mood, you being in a good mood (aka positive emotions, good vibe, having momentum on your side), etc.

Hope that helps.

NBW
 

ElderPrice

Space Monkey
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Messages
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I gotcha. You're not disagreeing, you're just saying if one's first impression fundamentals aren't stellar, it can be made up with post-first-impression game.

At the same time, it would obviously help to address the first impression issues. lol
 
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