ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

ThePhoenix

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EP,

On one hand, itʼs definitely good to have some kind of basic plan. I donʼt think that needs to be all that elaborate. It basically just consists of always moving things towards the bed! For instance, donʼt just ask for her number — propose a meet-up! Some very basic steps can be mapped out:

  1. Open with sexual intent.
  2. Get her to somewhat hook with some brief banter & rapport.
  3. Propose a meet for coffee (or whatever) some time soon.
  4. Assume the sale and get her contact info. (There are options for insta‑date, but more advanced.)
  5. Possibly a “save my number” type text so she remembers who you are; there are different options here.
  6. Re-engage on text within the next few days. Just something really simple.
  7. If sheʼs responsive, try to set a date. Plan a simple date you can pull from.
  8. Date: get her to do most of the talking, and escalate physically to some degree as possible.
  9. At some point in the date, invite home with a suitable excuse.
  10. Home: get her comfortable.
  11. Escalate! Gentle on-and-off persistence until sex or else she absolutely refuses.

My best successes thus far have come from a really basic plan like that; nothing elaborate.

It is good to be aware of some of the basic frames she may pull and the basic position you have to hold in order to overcome them. But this is not extremely specific stuff. This is basic stuff, like, if she writes you along the lines of “I will let you know” about a date, you proactively just retract the offer outright, unaffectedly, instead of waiting around for her update like a lost puppy.

Seppuku made a good list of these on the forum. Try to look up, it was something like “Classic Feminine Frames and What They Mean” or something like that. If you canʼt find it or he doesnʼt chime in with the link, I can have a look in my records.

Sometimes you need some plain intuition. For instance, I got “I will let you know” out of a girl but she was very warm and invited to write her on the proposed day or any other day. Common sense told me maybe it was best not to just retract according to the usual “algorithm”, so instead I just went silent and contacted her on the day. Ended up having sex with her that day. Theyʼre not machines.

I actually got a similar idea to your sentiment quite some time ago. To try to map out all possibilities of things she could say or do and how to respond. Like a computer program. But what I found was that it was impractical, for two reasons:

  • Mentally, itʼs overwhelming — weʼre not computers! — and

  • No matter how many possible things youʼve accounted for that she could say, believe me, sheʼs going to say something else.

When we're inexperienced we tend to over-complicate things.

Before I ever got laid, for example, I read over Seppuku's escalation sequence. I read it over and over. I wanted to memorize it but I knew in the moment I was going to forget the steps. I stressed about it. Well, when I finally got a girl's naked legs spread open, hmmm, I wasn't really following that list item‑by‑item anyway. (Partly because I couldn't remember it.) I just basically did stuff that I intuitively suspected she'd probably be ok with and which I felt like doing and which I felt was closer to sex. When she let me do one thing I tried another thing that was more interesting to me as a guy. LOL. It really wasn't so formulaic as Seppuku's instructions had made it seem.... well, actually the instructions were useful, but only from the perspective of geting a general sense of what an escalation might look like - not to follow like a machine!

How to set frames, such as sexual frames, is a tough thing to master mechanically. Certainly there are specific things to say or do for specific situations, and itʼs nice to be aware of some, but again, trying to put a whole computer library into your head is not going to work.

On the other hand, it comes about organically, when you are actually in the right place. For instance, do you think that a guy swimming in pussy sits down and analyzes, “now, if I was swimming in pussy, how would I respond to X/Y/Z?” No! He naturally makes the right response!

Of course, thatʼs a chicken and egg problem. But part of that comes down to a numbers game. You can make significant mistakes and still fuck some girls. Women actually like getting fucked, so as long as you have some faith in that fact, and move things in that direction, youʼll get laid sometimes. And each time you do, puts you closer to having the correct frames naturally.

I still think your best bet is to do lots of true cold approaches in day game. Itʼs ballsy enough that if you can bring yourself to open, youʼve already set a decent starting frame. Many girls wonʼt hook but some will.... basically, your job with them is quite simply, donʼt blow it!

And try to approach any girl youʼd feel alright about fucking. Not just the stunners. Right now you need more sexual reference points (same for me). You have better chances to get those if you arenʼt too picky, for now. (Iʼm a little hard-headed that way and itʼs making things harder, but even Iʼm willing to hit on many girls Iʼm not that into. Itʼs part of why I want to move to Africa, where my strict fuckability limits wonʼt look so strict any more.  lol)

Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

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Thanks for the reply, Phoenix. When I talk about a plan, I don't mean like a computer algorithm trying to memorize all 10,000 different outcomes. I'm just referring to the bits and pieces of the conversation/interaction that you actually glossed over in your 11 steps!

For instance, "brief banter & rapport." What if the person you're telling this to doesn't actually know or isn't actually sure if he's creating good banter and building rapport? Then the 11 steps don't matter! What if he doesn't know how to open? Then the other steps don't matter! As you know since you've been following this thread for a long time, I was following your and Seppuku's date template as best as humanly possible and it wasn't making a difference. I got numbers and dates, but all the dates were duds. The girls wouldn't even do basic things like reciprocate touch, even a forearm touch, or flirt back. And it wasn't shit I was saying because I've let the girl do the VAST amount of the talking on every single date I've been on. Clearly something was missing. They just weren't 'on.'

I suspect I'm missing some steps. Not your steps. But standard PUA points that need to be said in an interaction. Points like:
- Making sure to say a line about not being able to stay for a long time - this counters neediness and frames you as more of a challenge
- Just saying things in general to establish you are a challenge
- Making sure to build rapport - If she doesn't have much of a connection with you, then obviously she won't feel like moving forward
- Planting sexual ideas in her mind - If you skip this step, then it's harder to take things sexual
etc etc. I still need to research and learn all of the critical points to bring up.

I'm growing more certain by the day that my issue isn't a date template; it's that I'm just not creating the right emotions in a girl in the first place. And if I haven't figured out yet how to do that instinctively and naturally, I'm going to have to be a little more planned and deliberate in my approach. At least that's my thought.
 

ThePhoenix

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EP,

I see what youʼre saying, though still Iʼd keep it fairly simple. Of course, yes, youʼre going to want to have some basic lines on the ready, so that youʼre not fumbling to hit the next step. The more effortless the seduction seems, the more likely sheʼll get turned on. So yeah, in some manner, you may want to, even just visualize or mentally imagine an approach and date and how you might execute the basic steps. Just donʼt get too caught up in it; talking to girls is a much better teacher than ruminating over how to talk to girls, lol.

Iʼm sure youʼve read many articles here already. I find for me, Iʼll read some stuff, and certain things will kind of “connect” with my personality more, and Iʼll just remember those things. Sometimes after Iʼm done an interaction, I think of something I couldʼve said differently, and write it down. Good luck remembering it all, so really, I try to focus on just a few things I might try. Some things that really “click” with me, just become second-nature, and at that point, I can move on and experiment with other elements.

I actually also struggle myself to intentionally set sexual frames. And Iʼll read something like this and lament that clever shit like that doesnʼt just pop into my head, usually. I imagine oneʼs success rate will go up a lot when you can get good at this. However, itʼs not always necessary. Iʼve had girls come home with me, even get naked for me, without really having wittingly set any sexual frames at all, other than physically escalating once home. Some girls are just easier that way than others. (And some may be easier for you due to genetic factors.) Finding the easier ones is largely a numbers game. I really feel that enough sexual experience will change the way you think in ways that women can detect, so if you can just slog through by sheer numbers at first, it should get easier.

One thing I think can help a lot, is, instead of trying to make a detailed plan of whatʼs going to happen, do a detailed analysis of what did happen. Because itʼs anchored to an actual experience, youʼll internalize the lessons more. So, by this, I mean, take some particular interaction where you saw some potential or you were particularly interested in that one, and record it in detail. Write down the actual lines that were exchanged at key points, and whatever body language that may have stood out to you. Actually, I like to do a voice recording of my observations immediately after an interaction while it is fresh in my mind.

Write up some detailed field reports with as much detail as you think could be relevant, and post them to the Field Reports section. Try to do this for some day game approaches, because as Seppuku, yourself, and myself all suspected, the dance night may be giving you a poor starting frame. In day game approaches, I think thereʼs a certain assumption that you must be hitting on the girl rather than just socializing, so that, plus the boldness, helps you. Put up some FRs from day game approaches and you may get feedback on specific things you may have done wrong. Iʼd probably try doing at least one or two dozen day game approaches before trying to analyze them too seriously, though, because day game can be really intimidating, and when youʼre not used to it, the girls pick up on this and it goes south quickly; that will resolve on its own as you become more comfortable with such unconventional approaching, and then you can start to look at specifics of what youʼre still doing wrong.

Iʼm not sure how much youʼve actually tried, but just to warn you, approach anxiety in day game can be really bad... hell Iʼve gotten laid off day game and STILL I chicken out left and right, although not quite so badly as when I first started. You have to just keep going back. If you spent a day in the mall and talked to no girls, force yourself to do it again, and again, and again... eventually you get so tired of chickening out that you do some approaches. In the beginning I found it was helpful to withhold masturbation until reaching some goal, like an approach, or an approach in a certain difficult situation.

Also, if you havenʼt already, look at some of the Lay Reports on here. Reading theory is one thing, but when you read about a specific seduction from start to finish, after reading enough of those you should have a better “feel” for what sort of things were said and done to guide things in the right direction at critical points.

Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

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Phoenix, I agree with your points and I think we're on the same page.

And I agree about more day game. It's entirely possible that a venue change could be all that's needed, at least to build real momentum again.

Amazing you mention a mall because I FINALLY did some day game this weekend including at the mall that I've mentioned in some previous posts. I didn't make a write up about it because unfortunately nothing happened! Hahaha.

I Saturday I visited two bars during the day with friends. They were for special occasions so I couldn't move myself or the group elsewhere, but those two bars had a total of two cute girls in them. I opened them both but they were not interested. I probably could have opened better and they each were in a small group so that didn't make it easier, but I tried. Earlier in the day I went to some stores to browse. Didn't encounter any girls, but I did perfectly encounter some MILFs in a couple of aisles. I opened them for the experience, but wasn't into taking it further.

On Sunday I spent a couple hours walking around the mall and yeah that day game anxiety is something lol. But I went there to approach, not walk around, so I was ready to approach, but I noticed something as I was walking around. Going into it, I figured there'd be a decent number of girls/people sitting on a couch by themselves or browsing through the stores by themselves... but virtually every girl I saw was with a group and walking fast with them. The clear majority of cute girls there were with their boyfriends. It just didn't seem relaxed, or like girls were open to being approached by strangers. It didn't look like all the relaxed, alone girls you see in day game infield videos. Maybe I just didn't go at the best time of day? Who knows. But just like you said, got to try again and again. I'm very much looking forward to trying more day game.
 

ThePhoenix

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I wouldnʼt really consider daytime in a bar to be day game, in much the same way as I wouldnʼt consider nighttime in a mall to be night game. Some of my best day game approaches were actually after sundown. The day/night game distinction is really more about the social mode of the venue.

Yeah, the girls walking through the mall corridors arenʼt the easiest targets; I very rarely attempt those, although once I did have a fairly positive open that was only wrecked by her kid spotting the McDonaldʼs!!  LOL. Iʼm much more comfortable opening girls browsing in stores. Sometimes, if I spot a girl walking through the corridors, Iʼll keep my distance but try to see what store she goes into, and then slip in maybe a minute later.

One advantage of hitting the same venues over again, is that over time you get used to the physical layout so that you can plan a smooth approach. For instance, some stores are connected in the back, so if I see a girl go into one store, Iʼll go into the other which I know is connected, so it doesnʼt seem like I followed her in. Plus, you build up a repertoire of ideas for opening.

One downside to malls is that girls are very typically in groups, with pairs being pretty common. So it helps if you can be comfortable opening two‑sets etc. You can find them alone as well, but those are a little less frequent. Personally, I donʼt find girls to always be with BFs; itʼs certainly not uncommon, but not the majority, either.

Mom/daughter is probably more common in malls in my area. Those intimidate me, my being a little older and typically going for younger girls. I normally donʼt mind accidentally hitting on a minor; that used to be a huge mental block, but I actually pretty much killed off that one after doing it a few times without the sky falling down (theyʼre surprisingly friendly, actually). But the prospect of doing so in front of the mom utterly terrifies me. In one case I actually got laid from a mom/daughter set, but that was luck, not bravery — I happened to find the daughter torn off in a separate aisle. (And she wasnʼt underage after all!  lol) Itʼs not uncommon for girls in stores to spontaneously tear off their set, which can potentially make the approach easier. (In at least one case, I think the girl tore off on purpose as an invitation.)

To be honest, a lot of it is just mental blocks. “I canʼt approach her because X/Y/Z.” My brain is way too good at doing that!! Itʼs really just fear, in most cases. Also, keep in mind, women donʼt expect to be approached in these settings, at all, so theyʼre very rarely going to be “sitting ducks”. You have to be willing to interrupt her from what sheʼs doing — something that is both mentally difficult, but also very powerful because it conveys so much confidence!

I tend to focus on malls in part because in my particular area theyʼre some of the best traffic areas. I have a mall of 1.3 million retail square feet thatʼs a 45 min. walk from me, and I find that works fairly well (apart from my ethnic pickiness). Thereʼs a 400,000 square foot mall much closer, but I find that too small. If youʼre totally not finding your malls good, there are many other possibilities from coffee shops to train stations. Youʼll have to scout different places to see what works for you.

MILF could actually be good experience. For some reason, though, I find it really hard to push myself to open middle‑aged women; though black women tend to age gracefully, the middle‑aged ones seem intimidating, which is probably just a mental block. So Iʼve heard, MILFs can be pretty thirsty!  lol. From my very few approaches on them, thereʼs a higher chance she tries to direct the interaction, so you have to be stronger about leading, whereas the younger ones typically let you lead easier.
 

ElderPrice

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8/31/19 I can better see where I'm messing up

Well, I've done a lot of reading on seduction, and the good news is, I definitely have a better sense for where I mess up and where I've messed up in the past. Recently I read Swinggcat's Real World Seduction (all about frames), I've read more GC content, and I'm about 75% done with the Mystery Method.

MM feels like exactly what I was looking for. Seeing a structure laid out really helps show - generally speaking - where my errors could have been occurring. For example, MM uses the following template: Attract > Build comfort > Seduce. The gist of it is, if you're seducing before having attraction and building comfort, it's not going to work. If you go straight to building comfort before having attraction, that's a problem too. From this, it seems to me most of my interactions with girls (ESPECIALLY dates) are that I've spent most of the conversation "building comfort" and not enough on attracting and/or seducing.

Tonight I had a first date over dinner and I was excited for an opportunity to play around with just the couple things I've learned (that have stuck or been internalized) from these readings. This was a weird girl so I didn't care at all how it went. I was only interested in the practice. This girl I got her number 3 months ago and haven't seen since. She's basically flaked on me twice, and half flaked on me tonight haha. So she doesn't mean much to me.

All I was focused on was trying to follow the Attract > Build Comfort > Seduce model. For attract, the only thing that stuck so far was to do a lot more push/pull. So I did that. More push/pull than I consciously have done on any other date. Didn't seem to hurt. But what became painfully obvious was I kept going back to Build Comfort conversation. I just couldn't push through to Seduction topics, or do a great job at Attraction. I'm pretty confident after tonight that this is where all my previous dates failed as well. My conversations just weren't emotionally stimulating, particularly sexually, and that made me boring. I think I can deep dive and build comfort fine, but since I'm starting this so late in life with so little experience, I have to really work on knowing what to say to build Attraction and then to Seduce. Those just don't come naturally. Being a sexy man just doesn't come naturally. At least that's just my guess. It doesn't help I didn't get to the Seduction part of MM yet, but that doesn't matter. On this night I think I just wasn't in the mood at all.

I've just been generally down lately. Maybe it's the accutane. I don't know. I've just had little motivation to actually talk to girls and go for sex. I've been very motivated to hit the books though. I think I just feel talking to girls at the moment is futile. Not until I internalize better stuff to say. I can't get stuck in deep diving the whole time because I can't think of what else to say. So I need to keep working on the other stages of Seduction and make sure I don't knowingly or unknowingly miss any steps. Because otherwise my natural tendencies seem to be strongly on the boring side.
 

ThePhoenix

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ElderPrice said:
MM feels like exactly what I was looking for.
...
I think I just feel talking to girls at the moment is futile.
Shit this is almost scary given my own backstory.

MM is basically the first exposure I had to any kind of “game,” if you will. Iʼd taken in some science articles over the years before which were actually quite relevant to game, but I hadnʼt allowed them into my mental model in any way when actually dealing with females because I was still in “brainwashed by Walt Disney” mode and held romantic love as something sacred that I didnʼt want to see scientifically.

MM opened my eyes, in part because the point at which I encountered it happened to coincide with an unusual life experience that helped me realize it had merits. (Had I encountered it any earlier, Iʼd have surely thought it was chauvinist drivel.) It is what finally broke me out of my delusive paradigm of romance as being sacred, and allowed me to look at it as a learnable skill.

But MM also held me back the better part of a decade.

The reason is, itʼs really fucking hard to execute, especially as an introvert. If you believe MM, the degree of intentional psychosocial adroitness required to get anywhere at all is so high that I could not see someone like myself ever mastering it, and since I also believed that it was the only way to get women, I eventually reached a very low point in my life where I expected to always be a failure with women. That point was the closest Iʼve ever come to bona‑fide depression. That book literally made me scared of women. I didnʼt even hit on any for like a year after.

I finally discovered a seducer outside his camp, who had a less systematized approach, and thatʼs when I at least started talking to women. But not in much volume. And I bombed out on them pretty badly, largely because of how difficult I still felt the process was. I had girls who in retrospect I probably couldʼve gotten home easily who I didnʼt even try to get a date with because I didnʼt think they could possibly be attracted to me at such an early point. I teased girls and got attraction spikes out of them but wasnʼt confident to do anything other than continue to tease them until they just lost interest, because I was almost blind to the fact that they were interested enough.

The problems I see with MM:

  • It encourages the belief that getting sex is hard. It fundamentally suggests that in order to get sex, you need a highly systematized approach. Chase has criticized this general thinking of these “oldschool” PUAs.

  • Itʼs so fucking hard, even the guy who wrote it canʼt do it. Literally. Iʼve seen an in‑field video of Mystery, and he was a complete mess and didnʼt get the girl, even though she was most probably into him initially. Critically, he was doing a lot of things he himself says not to do, and wasnʼt doing a lot of things he says to do. It was definitely a case of, “do as I say, donʼt do as I do.”  LOL. Some of the commenters on that YouTube video concluded that heʼs autistic.

  • It was developed in night game. Women have their guard up a lot more in night game than in other settings and especially day game, so the whole thing has a more “adversarial” approach than I think is healthy. “She starts off thinking sheʼs way better than me” is something Iʼm still trying to get out of my head, years later, and which is crippling me, and MM was in no small part the cause.

  • Itʼs way too damn slow. You may have to go on several dates to follow the plan, depending on how long the dates are. I blew several of the few women I hit on, because Iʼd have her on a simple coffee date but didnʼt think I could pull her so soon, and so instead of inviting her home, just let the date end naturally and then tried to set up a bigger date, which never, ever happened. Iʼm totally convinced that if I hadʼve moved faster with girls, I couldʼve gotten laid years sooner.

Right now, it sounds like youʼre glued to books and not going near women. Thatʼs very bad! Quite frankly, I think youʼd be better served by just doing tons of day game approaches, maybe lowering your standards just a little bit if need be. There are some pretty easy girls out there that youʼll be able to lay as long as youʼre not a bundle of nerves, assume attraction, and move fast. (Those three points are where 99% of guys fail.) Your success ratio may suck at first but just by sheer numbers youʼll still get laid, and the more you do that, the more your behaviour will fix itself, rather than having to fix it by trying to robotically follow some book that is absurdly difficult to do right.

Not to say structured game and theory is completely useless, but I now strongly believe that many inexperienced guys give it way too much importance.

Cheers,
Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

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Great reply Phoenix. Regarding meeting more girls, yes I know. lol. That would be the advice I would give myself! And I've been going out. It hasn't felt fun, but I've been forcing myself out. I've gone out at night and have tried pushing harder to do more day game whenever and however possible.

I think it's my mood... I just haven't felt playful or fun lately. A couple months ago I genuinely wanted to go out and mess around with people and have playful conversations. But lately not so much. It feels like a chore, and clearly one with no rewards.

There's one thing you said that I just can't do, and I think it's contributing to my down mood in some way. And that is when you suggested to lower my standards. Not only have I refused to do this on principle, but it KILLS ME on the inside how hard it is to game not a stunner, but simply someone that I'm legitimately attracted to. I have no thrill or desire to fuck a plain, average girl I'm just not attracted to. Yet those ones are the 'easiest.' The ones who are hooked and who you can tell would totally be down to spend time with you one on one. Yet the truly cute girls that I'm actually attracted to? They've been close to impossible to game. At least it feels that way. This is why I'm still motivated to hit the books, practice, and get better at game. I REFUSE to settle for plain girls. I WANT beautiful girls in my life.

Regarding structured game, after reading your post, some GC articles on MM, and other criticisms, I think there are a LOT of incorrect assumptions made about it, referring to MM specifically. Lots of statements made about it that just aren't in the book, for instance. I don't want to debate the usefullness of MM/structured game, but do know that I recognize its weak points and understand how to adapt them to work for me.

The one thing I will say though is, keep in mind a LOT of people that get into game are social retards like me. People that somehow got through life without a hint of understanding about how to socialize, or about how to be a healthy masculine male, or about how women think and operate. For the real logical, analytical nerds out there, I can totally see how a structured approach is the best way for them to learn the basics and to get them working in the right direction. Then as they learn, gain experience, and see what works for them, they are free to adjust however they'd like.
 

ThePhoenix

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Hey EP,

I actually did read MM fully and several parts more than once, so my criticisms are not blind assumptions, theyʼre actually moreso observations about the distortions that it caused in my own mental model. Some of those distortions may have been due to my subjective interpretation, but when a student gets the wrong idea, the teacher shares in the blame.

Donʼt get me wrong, itʼs not that heʼs totally full of shit. There is some merit to it. In fact, one of my favourite sayings came from him, and is so true: “Try to get one girl, and youʼll get no girl. Try to get ten girls and youʼll get ten girls.” Well, maybe not all ten, but, yeah. BTW, Mystery himself also emphasized how crucial practice is, but I think you already realize that.  :)

I actually was pretty clueless myself, and indeed in no small part am still working on it, especially at the unconscious level. Iʼm not sure if Iʼd consider my original self a complete social retard, but to say I wasnʼt the sharpest knife in the drawer would be putting it mildly.

But before you systematize yourself to death, let me give you some food for thought. Itʼs a really simple example from an unrelated technical domain, which Iʼm using here allegorically.

There is a thing in electrical engineering called “Ohmʼs Law”, which shows how electromotive force (E), informally known as “voltage”, current (I), and resistance (R) are inter-related within any given branch of an electric circuit.

Many schools teach not one but three separate Ohmʼs Laws, which students are asked to memorize individually:

Ohmʼs Law #1:  E = IR

Ohmʼs Law #2:  I = E / R

Ohmʼs Law #3:  R = E / I


Well, anyone with even an elementary knowledge of algebra will immediately appreciate that these are not in fact three separate “laws”, but simply the application of algebra to reorganize the terms of the same law. There are countless other examples in education where students are asked to memorize and blindly apply some overwhelming and error-prone mass of formulas and rules and special cases and what have you, that they could have derived for themselves had they been given a deeper, more fundamental understanding.

If there is one single piece of theory that you should internalize, I think it would be the Sexy Son Hypothesis. The logical observation that in a species with asymmetric reproductive output, a gene pool will over time become heavily dominated by the genes of females that preferred polygamous males who got sex quickly and easily. So much in seduction flows out of that basic fact; it is like the algebra of the above example.

ElderPrice said:
I have no thrill or desire to fuck a plain, average girl Iʼm just not attracted to.
Well, I can in some sense relate, but my own limits express in a different way.

I have really fucking high standards, at least physically. I was going through some pics earlier today looking for stock references and one particular girl, out of a whole string of black models of all different ethnic backgrounds from African American to Fulani, happened to catch my eye instantly. I couldnʼt stand the weave, but God, she had a gorgeous face. Once my brain calmed down slightly, then factored out the weave because this particular type typically donʼt wear weave, my brain said, “hold up, sheʼs South Sudanese, isnʼt she?” Hmm, whatʼs her name? Ajang? Yeah, sounds like it... Google her name just to be sure... “South Sudanese model Ajang.....” Fuuuuck me, what have these women done to my brain!!?

My ideal woman isnʼt just African. She comes from somewhere around a 450 mile tract of the Nile River. And even a lot of those arenʼt ideal. Iʼm probably the pickiest guy on this forum!  LOL

With that said, the vast majority of the African girls Iʼve hit on werenʼt South Sudanese (Iʼve only even seen three in my city in several years!), and the majority of the black girls Iʼve hit on werenʼt even African.

Now, when I said my limits express differently, what I meant is this. As much as Iʼd way rather a hot South Sudanese girl, Iʼm willing to hit on a just plain black girl — but I wonʼt hit on an above-average or even what most would consider stunning white or Chinese or Latino or Indian girl. I actually do find the average black girl attractive; not stunning, but attractive. OTOH, the mere thought of hitting on anything other than a black girl elicits a downright hostile response from my brain.

Well, in my city, black girls are about 10% of all girls. Just considering reasonable ages, Iʼd probably consider 60% to 70% of them to be at least as good as “just plain”. Which makes me willing to hit on about 6.4% of reasonably-aged women in my city.

I imagine that youʼre probably willing to hit on about the same fraction of your localeʼs women. Does 6% sound about right?

Well, hereʼs a sobering fact for you:

Iʼm right now working on prerequisites of moving to Africa, as much as it involves some significant sacrifices.

And not even because I want at my beloved South Sudanese beauties... they live in a war zone Iʼm not about to move to.

Iʼm doing it because there is no way Iʼm going to succeed when Iʼm only willing to hit on 6.4% of the women around me. Iʼve had isolated success, but overall it has been an exercise in frustration.

There is no abundance mentality when there is no abundance.

Iʼm somewhat lucky here in that I can cheat. I can raise the fraction of women around me Iʼm willing to hit on to some 57% to 67% just by moving, without having to forcibly adjust what Iʼm willing to hit on. But thatʼs only because thereʼs a whole large race of women I consider beautiful!

I donʼt know if your definition of “attractive” allows elevating the fraction of qualifying women around you to above 50% just by moving, but if it does, then youʼd better move, and if it doesnʼt, then you have no choice but to try to see the beauty in more of the women around you.

The Jamaican girl I got to sleep with, for example, wasnʼt anywhere near my ideal and even had a little bit of a gut. And God I hated the glasses (at least she got by without them). She still had a feminine figure though. Hips. Nice bum. Shapely tits. Nice chocolate skin — not a midnight black South Sudanese, but still nice. Face wasnʼt my ideal but still had some nice fluid contours typical of black girls. When I think back on her, I donʼt remember the flaws as much as I remember how fucking good it felt to see her standing there naked for me. God, that was a beautiful sight. See them half full, not half empty.

Hereʼs a thought. You told me a while back that with depression, I could give you a million bucks and you still wouldnʼt be happy. Like nothing is ever good enough. Is it the same thing youʼre doing here with women?

ElderPrice said:
I REFUSE to settle for plain girls.
I donʼt think youʼve fully embraced polygamy yet.

Taking a girl is not settling for that girl when there is always going to be another girl to take.


Phew. Sorry if I rambled a bit but hopefully it was helpful!
Phoenix
 

NewBeeWinner

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ElderPrice,

Hey bro. To kind of piggy back on what Phoenix said, hes right that taking a girl is not settling for one. Im right where youre at bro - knowing I SHOULD lower my standards, get more lays with average girls,THEN work my way up to the more attractive ones. But heres some thoughts:

- If you dont have much experience closing with girls, how do you think youll get better? By closing more girls.

- Remember bro, seduction is a skill. Its something you can improve over time. Lets say you lower your standards a bit, start to talk to more average girls, and get a few lays under your belt. Yes theyre "easier" but thats where you are at skill wise. Now, you feel more confident in the process of closing and can work your way to laying more attractive women. BUT NOW the difference is you have the winner effect, experience, a sexual vibe, and momentum working in your favor. Musch more likely to get that more attractive girl.

Dont be afraid to humble yourself and see where youre actually at.

- Read up more on GC on the power flips that occur. The first is the girl letting you bang her. Thats the man job (to close). The man has the power now. The second will be when she ties you into a relationship (she has the power now). And its so true that you can bang girls AND not let them wrangle you into a relationship (unless thats what you want).

The girl I lost my virginity to started to withhold sex (we had a casual setup) because she was afraid of wanting a relationship (because they all do eventually once you have that first power flip). So I pulled back and we eventually stopped talking. But the other day I hit her up and found out she was really hurt that I stopped talking to her. (shout out to the guys here for advocating being friends to girls after you sleep with them). Anyways, now we're back on friendlier terms.

My point is: you have more control and power than you think.

- One last thought: If youre not motivated to meet women and talk to people and are forcing yourself to go out (which is good! but not for long periods), maybe there is some other big factor in your life that is needing taken care of. Im right with you bro - unmotivated and I force myself to go out and get rejected and learn. But a big part in that is that I dont feel in control fully of my life yet. Im struggling to set boundaries with my parents, relocate, finish my degree, maintain going out, find a place of my own, etc. Once I have that all settled here in a few months, I know I'll feel and do much better.

So how you feel now is only how you feel NOW. Figure out what it is in your life that is draining you. Where do you feel youre not in control? And then go fix it. Tony in one of his posts writes about succeeding at life. So go succeed at life bro. You'll feel better, be more confident, and do better with women - who love a man on a mission ;)

Hope this helps!

NBW
 

ElderPrice

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9/8/19 Night outing, not one hook, my thoughts

Last night I hit up a club, both to force myself out and to meet up with a friend. This was a female friend I haven't seen in months because our schedules just never aligned. So I was excited to see her again. She was there with a few of her friends but none of them appealed to me.

Anyway, before heading out I remembered another piece of advice I gave myself previously to boost my mood. I watched some RSD infield videos. I don't know what it is, but watching their videos, particularly Tyler's just always boosts my mood. Always. They're just hilarious, fun, and their energy is infectious. So heading out I was in decent spirits.

I've been reading and studying a lot recently. Unfortunately, of the hundreds of things I've concluded I can improve upon, my normal human brain can only focus on basically 2 things at once. So on this night, the two things sticking to my brain to consciously work on were: do more push/pull than I've done previously (with the overall goal of coming across as a challenge to women, instead of too easy), and when approaching groups, try to open the others in the group instead of the target. Normally I'd open the target, even if it was as indirect and non-sexual as it can get. Perhaps by ignoring the target like MM suggests, I can get more interest from the targets? This is what I was hoping to test.

So I just walked around throughout the club opening whoever caught my eye in some manner. I opened a number of guys who looked approachable and chill. They were cool to talk to. I opened a number of girls who were making funny faces and teasing/asking about what the face was about. I opened a number of people complimenting or commenting on something about their outfit. Out of everything I tried, absolutely nobody hooked. Nobody was interested in talking or asking questions back. Many were very cool and very nice about it, but they just wouldn't contribute. I said everything with a smile and playful tone.

I was glad I went out, but when the night was over I was quite bummed at how uneventful a night I had.

My analysis:
- MM writes that initially in a conversation you should expect to do 90% of the work before the target eventually opens up. Chase I believe has written on here about the importance of continuing to talk or 'not letting her leave.' I think one of the RSD guys was talking about how if you talk long enough, girls will eventually warm up to you. I recalled this toward the end of the night when I realized I may not have been giving these sets enough of a chance, but regardless, I just didn't have the energy for this that night. 1. I didn't have the desire or energy to force conversations on people (especially when, in my experience, there is no reward after doing so), and 2. Because I was still generally down and not in my best mood, I largely was drawing blanks on what to say.
- I still have no conscious game plan when it comes to conversation. Again, after all my MM readings, I just can't do 50 new things each night. I can only focus on a few at a time.
- I'm curious if this just isn't a good venue. It doesn't really have a 'quiet part' of the club to have a good conversation. Perhaps this just isn't the best place where people go to meet people? I don't know. That's probably bullshit. But I'm open to exploring other venues. Any good places to meet younger girls on Friday/Saturday night besides clubs? I think all of the 'quieter' clubs I've been to have a noticeably older clientele...
 

ElderPrice

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Phoenix, I hear you. Believe me, I don't have really high standards. I'm also not focusing on 2% of all girls and refusing to budge on my standards. I have an ideal, but I frequently pursue girls 'lower' than that. But regardless of where they rank, they must pass a very basic test: do I find them attractive or not? All I'm saying is that the ones that catch my eye seem to be the hardest, while the ones I'm not attracted to at all seem to be the easiest. Actually all I'm saying is that this has been particularly frustrating lately, as I'm sure every guy experiences this same phenomenon.

NewBeeWinner,

I hear you. Short of a stroke of luck, I just need some challenges to conquer to get that winner effect back. But I'm not going to feel good or feel like I conquered anything by closing an average/easy chick. But yeah I definitely could use some wins no matter how we want to define them.

As for what in life is draining me, nothing out of the ordinary. Also nothing that's actually solvable. The only thing that drains me (especially when I'm already depressed) is my failure/late start in life with girls. And of course the way to fix that is to get better with girls. Actually, the advice I give others on here most frequently is to meet more girls. I think I even did a post somewhere, probably in this journal, where I suggest that many if not close to all social problems can be fixed by simply meeting girls. So I'm trying to take my own advice there by forcing myself out. Hopefully it's just a standard cold streak and soon lady luck will pull me out of the funk. I mean, in addition to me making some changes and trying to end the cold streak myself!
 

ElderPrice

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9/10/19 Mini OR

Yesterday I did some work in a coffee shop. Was sitting next to two girls who were friends. I opened them. At first they weren't interested in talking. But I decided to put the theory to the test that maybe I just haven't been talking enough to get to the hook point. So I kept talking. I said good things, like good jokes, good teases, nothing erroneous or awkward. And lo and behold they started opening up!

I've always wondered if I take general GC advice too far, or if I misinterpret it as I drill it into my head. For instance, 'let her do most of the talking' can easily be interpreted by an idiot like me as coming close to not talking enough at all. Or 'law of least effort' as 'sit there chill and do nothing and it'll be more attractive than if you tried to make something happen.' Perhaps I need to test these concepts myself a lot more. Perhaps far more girl will hook if I keep talking until they get there? Who knows. It's worth testing.
 

ElderPrice

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9/15/19 Forcing myself out, still a little depressed

This weekend one night I did bar hopping and the other I did partner dancing. The bar hopping was with the goal of meeting girls and trying to practice. The partner dancing had no girl goal at all. I only did that to see if the dancing could snap me out of my depressive funk. It definitely helped take my mind off it and I really enjoyed seeing friends, but it didn't have any lasting effect. I started feeling like crap again basically as soon as I got in my car and started driving home.

In addition to this, I started forcing myself out to coffee shops to work on stuff in public as opposed to alone at office/home as often as possible. I think I did that three or so times this week.

Unfortunately there's really nothing to report here. Same issues as previously mentioned. Attractive girls just have no interest in even talking to me and seem like they can't get away from me fast enough. Even if all I do is smile at them, they exert great effort to avoid eye contact. Meanwhile I'm still really low on motivation to keep trying. Not referring to going out there and trying - I'm still going out as much as possible - but low motivation to keep doing this futile exercise of forcing interactions over and over that always end up going nowhere. It's so draining. I don't know why I just come across as such low value. I just can't seem to attract people. This lack of motivation is one reason I don't have much to report, even though I opened plenty of girls this past week. I just didn't give a shit to give full, serious, structured efforts. It feels like nothing I do makes a difference. Smile and try to talk to them about anything? Or try to tease and have a playful conversation? Zero attraction from them. Try the bored look, be a challenge, and try abide by 'the law of least effort'? Zero attraction from them.

For those reading this, please consider this just as a journal update. This isn't a post seeking a response. It's just venting. Besides, even this journal is starting to bother me. I know every god damn post sounds the same and I'm repeating the same stupid shit over and over again. There's just 50,000 things to work on with no time to do them, and no clue where to start, and I'm just getting tired of how hard this is, while knowing it's supposed to be easy.

I've been thinking a lot about what NewBeeWinner said in his reply. About taking some time to work on the rest of my life. To try and get some wins in that department. Trying to figure out how to do that, but I've been thinking about it.
 

ElderPrice

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9/18/19 When it rains, it pours

After four months on accutane, I experienced a flare up from my IBD. This is the first time I've ever flared since putting it in remission years ago. Fuck me.

It's not bad and I expect the medication to treat it quickly and put it back into remission, but this sucks. It also sucks that the accutane is causing this. I had really hoped that it would just work and finally cure my acne, without any extreme side effects, and without causing any IBD issues, which isn't even a consensus side effect. Short of severe suicidal depression, this is about the worst thing that could have happened going on accutane.

On the plus side, the doctor to my surprise didn't insist on stopping treatment and giving up. He said once I'm back in remission, let's try the accutane again at a 75% lower dose. If it works I'll be on it 3x or 4x as long, but there is a chance that at super low dose/super long term I should be able to get the positive benefits of the drug without the side effects.

Also on the plus side, to my amazement I think I actually feel a little better on the inside. I assume I'm just relieved that it may have just been the accutane/IBD having a negative effect on me and reducing my energy, and not so much a negative belief that I just suck with women. I'm looking forward to treating the IBD and greatly reducing the accutane dose. I should physically feel a lot better.

We'll see how it goes...
 

JacobPalmer

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I think you should switch to a whole foods, plant based diet, and get off that acutane...

It will seriously do wonders for your skin.

And then you won't have these issues.
 

Científico

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I think you should switch to a whole foods, plant based diet, and get off that acutane...

It will seriously do wonders for your skin.

And then you won't have these issues.
I second this. Been vegan myself since Jan 1st, 2016, and I have never felt better. There is also plenty of evidence that IBD is linked to consumption of these animal products.
 

ElderPrice

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How many calories do you two eat each day? Can you eat out all the time or are you largely forced to prepare most of your meals at home?
 

JacobPalmer

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ElderPrice said:
How many calories do you two eat each day? Can you eat out all the time or are you largely forced to prepare most of your meals at home?
I probably eat around 2000 a day, but I'm also trying to cut a bit to get more shredded (I'll go to the gym too).

I don't eat out that often, but when I do I'm a bit more flexible, so occasionally I'll eat meat/cheese etc when I'm out. But everything in my house and what I cook is whole food plant based. And if you meal prep, let's say on a sunday, you could cook lunches for the whole week to cut down on time.

But honestly, cooking a plant based meal takes the same amount of time as cooking a meal with meat. You just have to learn the skill.
 

ThePhoenix

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Just a quick word of caution on totally avoiding animal products.

Millions of years of evolution has physically conditioned our bodies to be omnivores. Even our tooth structure, digestive enzymes, etc., are all clearly omnivorous. There are micronutrients essential to human health which are much more abundant in animal foods than in plant foods. As a result, if you want to go totally herbivore, you need to be extremely careful in managing your micronutrients in a way that omnivorous diets donʼt require. Itʼs a lot of work and most people get it wrong.

Iʼve known several vegetarians and vegans, and eventually most of them reverted to an omnivorous diet, sometimes after being diagnosed with vitamin/nutrient deficiencies. To put that into perspective, Iʼve never known a single person to ever have a diagnosed vitamin deficiency who wasnʼt vegetarian.

Now, they typically feel better at first. Itʼs often several years, sometimes more, before they eventually wind up with a set of strange health problems that eventually lead back to the diet, and which resolve when they abandon it.

With that said, we definitely take in way too much refined and processed food on average, and cutting down on that or cutting that out wherever possible is probably a really good idea. But I wouldnʼt do away with animal products entirely.

Personally, I probably donʼt eat as much meat as most people, normally. A lot of people have meals that focus on the meat. In my meals, meat is just one of the components and usually not the bulk of it. Some days I donʼt eat any meat at all. But I do eat it. And Iʼm in quite good health apart from flaky testosterone — something cutting out animal products is definitely not going to help.

I think moderation is your best bet. So, you could cut down on animal products and see what happens. But I wouldnʼt cut them out entirely. At least not unless you have a certified nutritionist personally auditing your meals, lol.

There was a point where I was eating a lot more meat, because I was strength training, and my personal trainer — big, ripped football player — was always trying to get me eating even more meat than I was already trying to do. I could barely eat the amount he wanted me to. Like, eating became a chore that wasnʼt remotely enjoyable, lol. I did put on muscle, though. And thinking back, I didnʼt feel any worse health-wise in any way, even though the proportion of my diet going to meat mustʼve gone up by two or three times at least. I felt great, looked great, and I seem to remember my sex drive was better than usual.

Food for thought!
 
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