ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

fog

Cro-Magnon Man
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hi elder

been skimming over your shit for a while and i am astounded by your numbers. 40 dates & no results? 60 approaches over the weekend & no results? thats mindboggling dude

you mentioned that your friend said you don't appear confident. the whole confidence thing, I’m pretty sure thats the reason behind your extreme lack of success.

most people have average confidence. once in a while i see someone who radiates confidence. once in a while i see someone who radiates unconfidence.

i can tell that a person is unconfident just from looking at them. it permeates every aspect of their being. it shows up in subtle ways they cannot control, and in ways they are not aware of. it appears in their nonverbals. their eyes. the way they walk. their micro expressions.

are you like that? i dont know for sure. i would know for certain the moment i saw you in person. but i have a hunch this is the issue. an average guy with average confidence would at least get a few positive reactions from 60 approaches. and he’d likely get at least a kiss or 2 from 40 dates.

here’s what’s happening. the girls are sensing this on you even before you’ve opened, and it is communicated continuously through your interactions. every single girl ends up viewing you as lower value than her.

its like walking by a homeless person on the street. the homeless person begs you for money in a weak feeble voice, but you ignore them so easily. their presence is so weak and repulsive, they barely register as a blip on your radar.

if this is the case, you will need a complete overhaul in your inner mindset, while actively working to incorporate more confident, dominant actions into your behaviour. at first you wont have the mindsets to back up these actions, so you will basically be “faking it till you make it." its not a quick fix - working on this could take years. i know how much needs to be done because i used to be quite unconfident and submissive….but ive spent the last few years working on my mindset and behaviour and really turned things around. its something i am still working on daily.

here's some exercises to try out:

believe you are higher value than every person you talk to. believe you are the coolest person to ever walk this planet. believe you are a rockstar.

observe the way you move, your vocal tones, facial expressions, and all other parts of your behavior. is this behavior confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive?

observe other people. is that person confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive? what makes them that way? are you perhaps displaying the same behaviours as that person?

start observing your thoughts in interactions. do you feel the girl is higher value than you?

doing things like this will help you understand how to improve
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
245
fog said:
hi elder

been skimming over your shit for a while and i am astounded by your numbers. 40 dates & no results? 60 approaches over the weekend & no results? thats mindboggling dude

you mentioned that your friend said you don't appear confident. the whole confidence thing, I’m pretty sure thats the reason behind your extreme lack of success.

most people have average confidence. once in a while i see someone who radiates confidence. once in a while i see someone who radiates unconfidence.

i can tell that a person is unconfident just from looking at them. it permeates every aspect of their being. it shows up in subtle ways they cannot control, and in ways they are not aware of. it appears in their nonverbals. their eyes. the way they walk. their micro expressions.

are you like that? i dont know for sure. i would know for certain the moment i saw you in person. but i have a hunch this is the issue. an average guy with average confidence would at least get a few positive reactions from 60 approaches. and he’d likely get at least a kiss or 2 from 40 dates.

here’s what’s happening. the girls are sensing this on you even before you’ve opened, and it is communicated continuously through your interactions. every single girl ends up viewing you as lower value than her.

its like walking by a homeless person on the street. the homeless person begs you for money in a weak feeble voice, but you ignore them so easily. their presence is so weak and repulsive, they barely register as a blip on your radar.

if this is the case, you will need a complete overhaul in your inner mindset, while actively working to incorporate more confident, dominant actions into your behaviour. at first you wont have the mindsets to back up these actions, so you will basically be “faking it till you make it." its not a quick fix - working on this could take years. i know how much needs to be done because i used to be quite unconfident and submissive….but ive spent the last few years working on my mindset and behaviour and really turned things around. its something i am still working on daily.

here's some exercises to try out:

believe you are higher value than every person you talk to. believe you are the coolest person to ever walk this planet. believe you are a rockstar.

observe the way you move, your vocal tones, facial expressions, and all other parts of your behavior. is this behavior confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive?

observe other people. is that person confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive? what makes them that way? are you perhaps displaying the same behaviours as that person?

start observing your thoughts in interactions. do you feel the girl is higher value than you?

doing things like this will help you understand how to improve
Hey fog. Thank you so much for the help!

Yeah I'm sort of stumped too haha. Just to clarify, those were 50+ opens this weekend of guys and girls. It wasn't just girls. Probably majority guys actually. No matter. It's still mindboggling the dates I've been on that didn't end well, and just the total number of approaches I've done over the year that haven't ended well. The only clue I have from the girls is that they literally never give signs of interest, referring to those interests listed in a couple articles on this site. Whether it's been while approaching them or even on dates with them, the signs of interest are never there. For example, not one date has ever touched back and I'm talking like a playful touch on the forearm type of thing.

Yeah I mean it's a good theory that I'm radiating something bad like a lack of confidence. I could try asking more people for feedback about my vibe. A couple of friends that I've talked to actually made shocked faces when I told them I struggle with women. One of them specifically commented that I appear confident when he sees me interacting with them. *shoulder shrug*
Perhaps it's not necessarily confidence because I HAVE gotten dates. Actually my complete guess for a while is that I've had the success I've had BECAUSE of my confidence. Like, there's something else weird about my appearance or vibe, and my confidence is what actually got me those dates in the first place... and all the phone numbers in the last few months that ended up not resulting in a date.

Now that said, of course it's always a good thing to work on confidence and to be more confident. Regarding myself, I try to appear confident. I've read about it. I know it's a fundamental. I consciously do my best to walk tall, maintain good eye contact (I try. Not the best at this yet), move slowly, speak in a slow, sexy way (I have a terrible voice no matter what I do). Mentally I try to be confident in my choices and actions and to act like how a cool, confident man would act. I don't think I ever think of the girl as being higher value than me. If anything, I give her no value. My thought process is pretty simple. 'There's a cutie. Try approaching/hooking her. Not interested. Oh well. On to the next/just find another.' *shoulder shrug*

Good idea on the exercise suggestions. I haven't actually tried a night holding on to a belief like that before. Sounds like an interesting frame to attempt to hold all night.

Thanks again fog!
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
279
EP,

I read just the second page and recent LR, so forgive anything I may miss from 1st page.

Definitely sounds like an inner game struggle. On some level thatʼs something you just have to find the strength from inside yourself — our advice can only do so much. With that said, there are some things that come to mind.

First of all, I have to wonder if you are struggling with a clinical depression or maybe bipolar disorder. I have a good friend who has struggled badly with depression over years, and I can tell you that even when he is not acting overtly depressed, it still affects his vibe, I think. Heʼs gay but if he was going after girls, I could see him struggling badly. Itʼs not something Iʼve ever faced myself so I canʼt help much there, but Chase overcame depression; you might want to check out his articles on that. Figure out if thatʼs an issue and if so, you need to overcome that first and foremost.

I also think that you pay too much attention to looking for signs of interest from women. There is some value in getting such signs, but it can also be very misleading. For instance, the time you recently got intimate with a girl, she seemed to be a remarkable exception where she was showing lots of signs, and thatʼs what enabled you to move forward — seeing the interest. I have to wonder if there were other girls you had simply assumed were not into you who actually might have been more open than you think.

Read my LR from late last year. By the way, I was significantly older than you when it happened and that was basically my first time, and that was a college girl, too! So donʼt worry about your age! It was not textbook perfect by any means, and I hesitated and delayed needlessly. But one thing it illustrates well is that women arenʼt always overt in their interest. Those long lists you posted of signs of interest and complaining you never get those signs? The girl was basically not doing anything on that list. In fact, on the date, she even pointed her legs away from me — supposedly the opposite of interested posture. I invited her home not because I thought she was interested, but simply because I knew that I had nothing to lose in trying, because youʼll almost never get a 2nd date, anyway.

You may be sabotaging yourself by assuming that you should see at least some signs of interest. Then when you donʼt see those signs, you get discouraged. It then becomes a self‑fulfilling prophecy, because your negative feeling bleeds into your behaviour and the lack of confidence becomes a turn‑off. Just assume attraction and go for compliance — youʼll do much better! My success ratios are not that bad and yet itʼs extremely rare that I see the signs of interest on your lists — sometimes, but not usually.

Also, I donʼt know how you are inviting them home, but it really helps to have a good excuse to bring them home. I know thatʼs a lot harder when you have to pull to her house. But try! When you are deep diving her, keep in the back of your mind to look for things she has at home. Pets, some collection, artwork, or anything you can ask her to show you.

Another thing to consider is to add some day game into your approaching. It takes a lot of balls to stop a girl in a shopping mall or supermarket or walking down the street. Most guys are not that brave. Even if youʼre not so confident, as long as youʼve done it enough that youʼve got a routine and youʼre not a total bundle of nerves, your approach can still seem quite confident to her, simply because most guys donʼt do this at all. Being brave with women is extremely attractive to them, because it subconsciously implies for them that you must get a lot of women — even if thatʼs not really the case. I think that is part of why it only took me about 60 approaches since starting in order to get laid. (I counted 35 initially as I had missed some minor occasions.)

Inner game is really key. For me personally, I never put too much attention into outer game beyond some grooming and sexy fashion and trying to catch myself if Iʼm doing really bad stuff like being slumped over. The reason I donʼt put much attention into it is because I find it kind of hard and frustrating and distracting to have to monitor it all, and I am of the belief that as the experience and inner game improves, the outer game will improve unconsciously by itself. Good beliefs are the key!

Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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ThePhoenix said:
EP,

I read just the second page and recent LR, so forgive anything I may miss from 1st page.

Definitely sounds like an inner game struggle. On some level thatʼs something you just have to find the strength from inside yourself — our advice can only do so much. With that said, there are some things that come to mind.

First of all, I have to wonder if you are struggling with a clinical depression or maybe bipolar disorder. I have a good friend who has struggled badly with depression over years, and I can tell you that even when he is not acting overtly depressed, it still affects his vibe, I think. Heʼs gay but if he was going after girls, I could see him struggling badly. Itʼs not something Iʼve ever faced myself so I canʼt help much there, but Chase overcame depression; you might want to check out his articles on that. Figure out if thatʼs an issue and if so, you need to overcome that first and foremost.

I also think that you pay too much attention to looking for signs of interest from women. There is some value in getting such signs, but it can also be very misleading. For instance, the time you recently got intimate with a girl, she seemed to be a remarkable exception where she was showing lots of signs, and thatʼs what enabled you to move forward — seeing the interest. I have to wonder if there were other girls you had simply assumed were not into you who actually might have been more open than you think.

Read my LR from late last year. By the way, I was significantly older than you when it happened and that was basically my first time, and that was a college girl, too! So donʼt worry about your age! It was not textbook perfect by any means, and I hesitated and delayed needlessly. But one thing it illustrates well is that women arenʼt always overt in their interest. Those long lists you posted of signs of interest and complaining you never get those signs? The girl was basically not doing anything on that list. In fact, on the date, she even pointed her legs away from me — supposedly the opposite of interested posture. I invited her home not because I thought she was interested, but simply because I knew that I had nothing to lose in trying, because youʼll almost never get a 2nd date, anyway.

You may be sabotaging yourself by assuming that you should see at least some signs of interest. Then when you donʼt see those signs, you get discouraged. It then becomes a self‑fulfilling prophecy, because your negative feeling bleeds into your behaviour and the lack of confidence becomes a turn‑off. Just assume attraction and go for compliance — youʼll do much better! My success ratios are not that bad and yet itʼs extremely rare that I see the signs of interest on your lists — sometimes, but not usually.

Also, I donʼt know how you are inviting them home, but it really helps to have a good excuse to bring them home. I know thatʼs a lot harder when you have to pull to her house. But try! When you are deep diving her, keep in the back of your mind to look for things she has at home. Pets, some collection, artwork, or anything you can ask her to show you.

Another thing to consider is to add some day game into your approaching. It takes a lot of balls to stop a girl in a shopping mall or supermarket or walking down the street. Most guys are not that brave. Even if youʼre not so confident, as long as youʼve done it enough that youʼve got a routine and youʼre not a total bundle of nerves, your approach can still seem quite confident to her, simply because most guys donʼt do this at all. Being brave with women is extremely attractive to them, because it subconsciously implies for them that you must get a lot of women — even if thatʼs not really the case. I think that is part of why it only took me about 60 approaches since starting in order to get laid. (I counted 35 initially as I had missed some minor occasions.)

Inner game is really key. For me personally, I never put too much attention into outer game beyond some grooming and sexy fashion and trying to catch myself if Iʼm doing really bad stuff like being slumped over. The reason I donʼt put much attention into it is because I find it kind of hard and frustrating and distracting to have to monitor it all, and I am of the belief that as the experience and inner game improves, the outer game will improve unconsciously by itself. Good beliefs are the key!

Phoenix
Phoenix, thank you so much for taking the time to read and comment. I appreciate your help! You touched on several points, so I'll try to address each one...

Regarding depression, I have actually wondered before if I have some sort of constant or clinical depression. Maybe not a major depression, but some sort of light variety that's always there. I just googled symptoms for clinical depression, and the symptoms listed definitely occur for me, but only on bad days. On a good day I feel fine and many of those symptoms go away. I've read Chase's articles on depression. I'll read them again. I've read other things and watched videos about depression. I remember they just didn't resonate with me in particular. I don't know. I can try again to execute their recommendations, but I've always struggled buying in to their suggestions. As a matter of fact, the other day I read through an entire website module about depression. It was all about CBT. Their main to-do's involved writing things down which I did. But it just didn't seem helpful. It wasn't clicking.

Regarding signs of interest, it just really bothers me how I literally never see them. And I'm not saying I expect to see them 90% of the time, or 50%, or something crazy. But 1 out of 30 times would be cool? 1 out of 100? Also regarding signs of interest, don't get me wrong, I've made sure to try pushing through despite the no signs. Back when I got dates I still tried to move things forward despite no signs on the date. During my current dateless stretch, I've been collecting numbers quite easily, all while never even seeing one clear sign of interest. Then I come on the internet and read about other people's problems/examples dealing with women and it really drives up the frustration. I read the conversations they're having with women, and even though these are obviously rare conversations they have, the conversations they're posting include the women saying things that they just never say to me. Those girls just say things that make it so much easier for the guys posting about it. They use much clearer language. It just seems like everyone at least occasionally meets gorgeous women that actually try to get their attention. SEEMS - I know. I however never see it. It just feels wrong to me. Like I'm some alien or something other than a normal male human. And again, I totally get it that a lot of guys don't see signs of interest either. But they still get results. I'm getting no signs of interest and no results. So I've been curious about signs of interest lately using the logic that if I can make changes that can actually generate signs of interest, a lot more good things should follow. Anyway, apologies for that turning into a mini rant on signs of interest haha.

Working to add more day game. But yes, I have become convinced in the past week or two that it's got to be an inner game issue. So I've been trying to find how to address this.

Thank you again!
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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EP,

Let me ask some questions; forgive me if youʼve stated already, but perhaps repeating is useful:

  • Do you prefer a woman to be a chaste angel? Do you feel women who open their legs easily are inferior or debased? Do you see promiscuity in a woman as a liability?

  • Do you think women see promiscuous men as no‑good sons‑of‑bitches that they wouldnʼt want to have anything to do with?

  • Do you feel that women donʼt like men looking at them sexually or being sexually aggressive with them?

  • Are you very insecure over your physical qualities, like height or age?

  • Do you feel that itʼs a manʼs duty to provide economic value to a woman? If your financial or living circumstances arenʼt good, do you feel a woman is bound to reject you over this?

  • Are you afraid that you might not be able to please a woman sexually? Either out of inexperience or any other factors?

  • Do you think of the loss of your virginity as a really special, picture‑perfect moment?
A “yes” answer to any of the above questions would be a good candidate for whatʼs screwing you up, and I think that covers about 99% of possible sources of inner game issues, so if youʼre honest with yourself, at least one of these is probably “yes.” Knowing which one could also help give more meaningful advice.

Cheers,
Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Thank you for putting this mini quiz together! I'm eager to hear your thoughts after my answers:
[*] Do you prefer a woman to be a chaste angel? Do you feel women who open their legs easily are inferior or debased? Do you see promiscuity in a woman as a liability?
No, not a liability at all. It doesn't bother me at all.
[*] Do you think women see promiscuous men as no‑good sons‑of‑bitches that they wouldnʼt want to have anything to do with?
Not at all. Men that get laid a lot are most attractive to women.
[*] Do you feel that women donʼt like men looking at them sexually or being sexually aggressive with them?
They definitely like it.
[*] Are you very insecure over your physical qualities, like height or age?
Height, no. Age, no. On any day that's not a bad day I feel like I'm a pretty good looking dude. I know my style is sort of mediocre, but that's a work in progress. The one physical insecurity that I have remaining is my skin. I have terrible skin on my chest, shoulders, and back. Lots of acne scars and I still get some huge, red cystic acne there. It's nowhere near the insecurity it was 5-10 years ago, but it's the last lingering insecurity I have. I saw a derm recently and for a number of good reasons he actually recommended against any treatments and to just live with it. I'm seeking more opinions.
[*] Do you feel that itʼs a manʼs duty to provide economic value to a woman? If your financial or living circumstances arenʼt good, do you feel a woman is bound to reject you over this?
No to both. The only caveat I'd say is: while dating, a man absolutely has no duty to provide economic value. Now, if a man is married and has kids, he should probably do his best to provide for his family.
[*] Are you afraid that you might not be able to please a woman sexually? Either out of inexperience or any other factors?
It used to be a concern, but not anymore. I'll enjoy all my experiences and just get better over time. As long as I'm relaxed and enjoying the experience I'm not worried about it at all.
[*] Do you think of the loss of your virginity as a really special, picture‑perfect moment?
Not at all. I don't expect it to even really register as a moment. The special moment will come way after that once my lifestyle has fully transformed - having the ability to pull new girls consistently, having girls chasing me trying to see me again, finally experiencing a relationship whenever that comes... Those are the cool moments I'm looking forward to.

Thanks again Phoenix. Let me know what you think. These are fully honest answers. I know you're trying to help diagnose so I'm definitely not holding anything back. These are my honest answers.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
279
EP,

I canʼt see too much in your answers to indicate a bad mind‑set. With that said, it is possible that if you ever had any dysfunctional beliefs in past — and most of us have, — they could still impact your behaviour on an unconscious level even though you have rejected them consciously on an intellectual level. If that is the case, it may just be a matter of more practice, and getting enough lucky breaks to help gradually internalize the right mentality more deeply.

You did run into such luck at least once — the recent LR probably could have been a full lay if managed slightly better. So I donʼt think you are hopeless, although itʼs harder for some reason.

The lack of any other explanation would again make me think some mild depression might be making this harder, but I donʼt have any suggestions there, unfortunately.

ElderPrice said:
I know my style is sort of mediocre, but thatʼs a work in progress.
You may want to pay more attention to fashion, as itʼs something that you have a lot of control over. Unlike eye contact or voice or any of that other stuff, where your unconscious mind may betray you if youʼre not fully confident, you have total conscious control over it. Same with text messages (a weak thought will not hurt your game as long as you donʼt press Send, lol). I think that has helped me.

ElderPrice said:
The one physical insecurity that I have remaining is my skin. I have terrible skin on my chest, shoulders, and back. Lots of acne scars and I still get some huge, red cystic acne there. Itʼs nowhere near the insecurity it was 5-10 years ago, but itʼs the last lingering insecurity I have. I saw a derm recently and for a number of good reasons he actually recommended against any treatments and to just live with it. Iʼm seeking more opinions.
How much this issue really affects you is probably governed mostly by how much youʼve let it affect your confidence.

I have a friend who has a physical flaw that I have also. He recently got a type of treatment for it. I think it will probably help him, because he seems happier and more confident with his appearance. At the same time, although he recommended it to me, Iʼm not in a rush to get the treatment, because it doesnʼt really bother me — I just work my style around it and basically never think about it. The difference between us is that it really ate away at his confidence. The reason the treatment I think was good for him, is not because he looks better, but because he feels better about himself.

If this is something you could cover up with clothes, you could try doing that and see what happens. Mainly, that would help get your mind off whether the girl notices or cares. If you can get some success while hiding it, Iʼm guessing youʼll probably find that you donʼt need to hide it any more.

I wonʼt discount the possibility that it could have some impact on a womanʼs initial impression if it looks like youʼre dying of Ebola or something, but I think the effect is probably less than youʼd expect. From everything Iʼve seen, behavioural cues are way more significant to women than physical traits. This is something itʼs a bit hard for us as guys to relate to, because weʼre very much attracted to physical beauty in females, so we just mentally assume they must be the same.

ElderPrice said:
The only caveat Iʼd say is: while dating, a man absolutely has no duty to provide economic value. Now, if a man is married and has kids, he should probably do his best to provide for his family.
Here is where our mentality starts to differ. I have seen far too much, both in science and in anecdotal observation of peopleʼs behaviour, to believe that it is natural for humans or most other animals to settle down into true and permanent monogamy. Science strongly points to the female being instinctively conditioned to lock down a male that she can lock down in order to use his resources, and then get impregnated by one of those males she canʼt lock down. (This is not to say it always actually plays out that way, but to say that this is her nature and that any other behaviour she may manifest is the result of a constant internal battle between her nature and social norms.)

I think a lot of people (including many of the seasoned guys on here) when faced with that science tend to either stick their head in the sand or else become cynical towards women. They want to attract women but they still want to eventually do that which does not sexually attract women (marry), because thatʼs what religion and society have conditioned them to believe they should ultimately be aiming for. The guys who have enough experiene with women stand a better chance of pulling it off, but in my opinion theyʼre still subjecting themselves to needless risk and disadvantage. Some people when I present them with the science, they try to attack it — because theyʼve been that strongly conditioned to idealize monogamy. Other guys, when they figure out how women actually work, accept the objective reality but are unwilling to adapt to it ideologically, and those ones become bitter MGTOW etc. who look at women as evil.

To me, I rather just adapt to reality. I love women the way they are, while also loving myself and my independence. I donʼt plan on ever marrying or even being monogamous. I do plan on having a kid, albeit probably “accidentally” (LOL), but my only responsibility is to share equally in looking after my kid. I donʼt feel any kind of obligation to look after the woman — thatʼs her job! I donʼt plan on living with her if at all possible — Iʼd much rather live separately but nearby, and share custody with her equally right from the beginning. Obviously Iʼd want her to be someone I have a good connection with, and I really believe that connection would endure much better than it usually does in traditional families, because she will never lose respect for me the way she would if I let her break my male nature. I also strongly believe thatʼs a much healthier way of raising a child than exposing them to the risk of finding themself upheaved and caught between the parties of a bitter divorce at 6 or 7 years old.

My conviction to this approach is so strong that Iʼm seriously willing to leave my home country in the West for 18 years to raise my kid if it so turns out I knock up a woman in Africa, because I would rather still follow that plan than having to sponsor a woman, making myself legally responsible to her care for something like 8 years, in order to get her into my country. I absolutely donʼt want to be the guy supporting a woman, because I seriously, with all of my being, think of that guy as a loser whose sperm she is rejecting.

do think that completely ditching monogamy as an ideal, to the point that I donʼt even want it to ever happen, has helped my mentality a lot. I think itʼs part of why Iʼve started to see success quite quickly. (Quickly in terms of interactions — not chronologically, because my taste in women largely rejects the whole continent Iʼm on at the moment.) I think itʼs harder to really internalize polygamy while youʼre still harboring intentions of eventually being monogamous.

With that said, there are many guys on here who expect to eventually settle down who still manage to get with women, and of course I know guys IRL in relationships, so I canʼt really say that this discrepancy fully explains your troubles.

Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
245
I don't think that line of thinking is the culprit for me lol. I think at the end of the day a lot of it is just mood related. It's very, very hard for me to get into that "here's an awesome guy that is the center of attention and loves it" energy. Even on days and nights when I'm not feeling depressed at all, it's just super hard to be the high energy guy and hold it all day and night.

Perhaps a way to think about it is this: I don't drink and I feel like I have a Ron Swanson / confident, quiet, & no frills type of personality.

I know I need to change that. My plan is to continue pushing the envelope when it comes to approaching/socializing. For instance, I liked my game in the previous reply where I went to that meetup and just said to myself 'the game is to meet every person here.' I should continue trying it. When I get to a venue, just be a cool, friendly person and try to befriend everyone there. Something like that to help boost the mood, warmup, and in a very particular way, help me stand out in my own way.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Messages
279
EP,

We might be on to something here:

ElderPrice said:
... Itʼs very, very hard for me to get into that “hereʼs an awesome guy that is the center of attention and loves it” energy. Even on days and nights when Iʼm not feeling depressed at all, itʼs just super hard to be the high energy guy and hold it all day and night.

Perhaps a way to think about it is this: I donʼt drink and I feel like I have a Ron Swanson / confident, quiet, & no frills type of personality.

I know I need to change that. ...
I personally am a kind of introverted person. I wouldnʼt say Iʼm always quitet; I can be a bit more energetic when you get me on a topic I have a passion for, and do have a good projecting voice when I actually get into this mode. But generally, Iʼm fairly quiet, and am generally comfortable in solutide, although I do like people around sometimes. In school, I was the type who usually made friends by having others be curious about me and come talk to me — I almost never made friends by being proactive about it, nor did I even feel like I needed to.

Well, when I first discovered game, it was from guys like Mystery and Savoy. Those guys concentrated on club game and their style was very, very much based on group social dynamics. Discovering them was a double‑edged sword for me.

On one hand, before that I was clueless about women and had only ever been a beta male orbiter. (To make matters worse, the type of woman I go for, tends to go for sexually aggressive males. So I spent years of my life lightyears away from any pussy.) In that way, Mystery & friends saved me from myself.

On the other hand, because I was not by nature a “social butterfly” and their style of game tends to emphasize that, I got really discouraged. I went through a period where I was depressed — maybe not clinically, but certainly had a lot of negative thoughts. I became severely intimidated by women and really angry at life because I felt I had been born with a personality women would inherently not be attracted to. All this socio‑psychological razzle‑dazzle these guys were teaching felt like something so alien to my personality that I wasnʼt sure how I would ever master it. Sadly, I put off learning for a number of years because I believed the amount of time and energy I would have to invest to get any sort of result at all would be enormous, and I wasnʼt at a point in my life where I felt I could do that.

Gradually, I exposed myself to several other seduction writers who were less formulaic and systematized, and I started experimenting just a little bit with women around me. I got some limited results but which nevertheless gradually helped me overcome being intimidated by them, although old habits die hard, and having spent so much time avoiding women left damage Iʼm still working on.

Iʼve since realized that you really donʼt need to be a social butterfly to be attractive to women. A quiet, mysterious guy can be quite attractive if he still shows confidence and sexual aggression. Iʼm not positive but I seem to remember Seppuku relating to being a more quiet or introverted type also, but he cleans up! Maybe heʼll chime in if Iʼm remembering correctly or not.

Rather than trying to turn yourself into a person youʼre not, adjust your game to fit your personality type!

For instance, I occasionally do club game and other types of public gatherings and social events, but I donʼt make it my main thrust. I actually almost got laid from something similar to club game, but there was a fair bit of luck involved and I had some connections in that venue thanks to having a year prior forced myself into some extroverted settings. So you could still gain from trying sometimes to work more extroverted settings, but if you make it your main thrust, itʼs likely to be draining, overwhelming, and make you discouraged. On some level I find that sort of setting mentally exhausting, so I donʼt make it my mainstay.

Personally, from what you have said I think you really need to look at day game more. It is a much lower energy setting, so if youʼre not the “center of attention and loves it” type, thatʼs totally fine and youʼll fit right in — in places like a mall, low‑key approaches are best! I find in malls, girls are often in sets of two (most common) or sometimes more, so there is still some social dynamic you need to work with, but you can also find lone girls to talk to. Groups in malls are skewed towards all‑female, which I find less intimidating. You may also find other environments where theyʼre alone more, such as walking down the street. (I tend to focus on malls due to the local geography and my girl preferences, but there are many possibilities!) There is also a lot less cockblocking, and girls are not in this “look at me, Iʼm the center of attention, now bow before me” type mode.

On-line is an option too, since itʼs basically just between you and the girl right from the beginning. I should really try it, but Iʼve found that I really like day game because women are so not expecting to be approached, so you get off to a good start as long as youʼve done it enough to not freak out. Youʼll probably botch the first dozen approaches really badly, maybe even worse than in other types of venues — but donʼt let that discourage you, because when you get used to it, itʼs a big advantage!! Itʼs so ballsy!!

Cheers,
Phoenix

p.s., Iʼm not much of a media type, so I had no idea who Ron Swanson was, but I just watched a YT collage, and, hahaha, heʼs awesome! Not that I fully agree with the ideologies, but his style cracks me up. Just make him promiscuous, sexually confident, sexually aggressive, maybe some other minor tweaks, bolder fashion, and I think heʼd be fine with women!
 

ElderPrice

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Thank you again for your thoughts! I will continue working to incorporate day game. I'll also look more into what you can do if you're going for a more low-key/introverted style. I definitely have to be proactive about approaching because sitting back and waiting will not work for me. Girls never approach me, even if I'm in the best mood ever.
 

ElderPrice

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3/31/19

Started getting a little sick this weekend so I didn't have as much gusto as normal.

Friday I had an art class and went dancing. The art class was a one time class that a friend got me for Christmas. Basically a 'paint this and take it home' type of thing. I was curious if there would be any girls there. Whenever you google shit like "where to meet girls," every single list has "classes" on it. I've always thought this had to be bullshit. Just too low volume, right? I think it's much better to go meet girls at a high volume place. Then you don't have to hope that the 1 attractive, single, your age girl in the class of 30 likes you or not. Even though this is just a sample size of 1, my suspicions were correct hahaha. The class was exclusively couples and the vast majority were over 50. A dud as far as meeting girls goes.

Nothing to report from dancing. I just did that for fun. Didn't meet too many new girls.

Saturday I tried some day game. I went to a music festival with friends. Dealt with a little approach anxiety. It was tougher since I was doing this while feeling a little sick. For most of the day there I just wasn't feeling it. But eventually I convinced myself to try it to some degree because I knew if I went home without opening anyone I'd be disappointed at myself for blowing an opportunity, even if I justifiably felt like crap. So to make sure I gave a bare minimum effort I created a game to open/approach just 10 girls. Happy to say I got it done. It seemed a little challenging... People weren't really standing around putting themselves out there to meet new people. Either they were standing/sitting at the stage watching a band, or they were walking on a mission to go somewhere, like to get food, use the bathroom, or meet their friends somewhere. I don't know if what I saw is accurate or if it's just the approach anxiety talking and I'm being a bitch, but it just didn't seem like girls were in the mood to stop and chat.

For the approaches/opens I did do, I figured the easiest way to do this was to post up at a part with constant traffic walking by, then if a cute girl walked by, say something and see if she would stop and chat. And that's what I did. I stood there chatting with my friends then when I'd spot a cutie, I'd try to open her. My opens were either complimenting one of her pieces of clothing, asking about it, or asking if we knew each other because she looks familiar. The results were about what you'd expect. Of the 10 girls I opened, most weren't interested. I think I counted 2 who were. One wanted to stop and chat but she was leading her group of five friends somewhere so they yelled at her to keep moving. The other one went okay. We connected on Facebook so we'll see if anything comes of it. She didn't seem into me so my guess, based on all my experience, is nothing will come from it.

Today I fully took the day off to relax and hopefully get over this illness. As for my goals for this week, I want to try making my focus on getting feedback from my female friends. Perhaps they can identify my weaknesses with vibe/attraction. Or if I have any other quirks that are just killing my attractiveness.
 

Sub-Zero

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Good job man!!

Idk if there's something wrong with me, but cold approaching is hard af to me.

You made it seem as simple as ever and just did it like nothing, props!

You talked to 10 girls that quick, you could easily get to 100 a week if you wanted to.

Damn, I gotta find a way to make it easy for myself as well because that was motivating.

Good job man.




ElderPrice said:
3/31/19

Started getting a little sick this weekend so I didn't have as much gusto as normal.

Friday I had an art class and went dancing. The art class was a one time class that a friend got me for Christmas. Basically a 'paint this and take it home' type of thing. I was curious if there would be any girls there. Whenever you google shit like "where to meet girls," every single list has "classes" on it. I've always thought this had to be bullshit. Just too low volume, right? I think it's much better to go meet girls at a high volume place. Then you don't have to hope that the 1 attractive, single, your age girl in the class of 30 likes you or not. Even though this is just a sample size of 1, my suspicions were correct hahaha. The class was exclusively couples and the vast majority were over 50. A dud as far as meeting girls goes.

Nothing to report from dancing. I just did that for fun. Didn't meet too many new girls.

Saturday I tried some day game. I went to a music festival with friends. Dealt with a little approach anxiety. It was tougher since I was doing this while feeling a little sick. For most of the day there I just wasn't feeling it. But eventually I convinced myself to try it to some degree because I knew if I went home without opening anyone I'd be disappointed at myself for blowing an opportunity, even if I justifiably felt like crap. So to make sure I gave a bare minimum effort I created a game to open/approach just 10 girls. Happy to say I got it done. It seemed a little challenging... People weren't really standing around putting themselves out there to meet new people. Either they were standing/sitting at the stage watching a band, or they were walking on a mission to go somewhere, like to get food, use the bathroom, or meet their friends somewhere. I don't know if what I saw is accurate or if it's just the approach anxiety talking and I'm being a bitch, but it just didn't seem like girls were in the mood to stop and chat.

For the approaches/opens I did do, I figured the easiest way to do this was to post up at a part with constant traffic walking by, then if a cute girl walked by, say something and see if she would stop and chat. And that's what I did. I stood there chatting with my friends then when I'd spot a cutie, I'd try to open her. My opens were either complimenting one of her pieces of clothing, asking about it, or asking if we knew each other because she looks familiar. The results were about what you'd expect. Of the 10 girls I opened, most weren't interested. I think I counted 2 who were. One wanted to stop and chat but she was leading her group of five friends somewhere so they yelled at her to keep moving. The other one went okay. We connected on Facebook so we'll see if anything comes of it. She didn't seem into me so my guess, based on all my experience, is nothing will come from it.

Today I fully took the day off to relax and hopefully get over this illness. As for my goals for this week, I want to try making my focus on getting feedback from my female friends. Perhaps they can identify my weaknesses with vibe/attraction. Or if I have any other quirks that are just killing my attractiveness.
 

ElderPrice

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Sub-Zero said:
Good job man!!

Idk if there's something wrong with me, but cold approaching is hard af to me.

You made it seem as simple as ever and just did it like nothing, props!

You talked to 10 girls that quick, you could easily get to 100 a week if you wanted to.

Damn, I gotta find a way to make it easy for myself as well because that was motivating.

Good job man.
Wow thanks man! Glad that my update helped. I thought it was a rather weak update!

Nope, nothing wrong with you. Cold approaching is notorious for its difficulty haha. As a matter of fact, I'm curious if what I did even counts as cold approaching! I felt like I was cheating since I wasn't really walking up and approaching anyone... I let them walk in front of me hahaha. I've seen that idea on other sites and I think I've seen it in an article or two here... about the importance of location at a venue. Like if you're going to be standing still, you want it to be at a spot where the traffic is flowing so people can see you as they walk by.

One thing though: It wasn't as fast as I made it sound! It took me 2 hours give or take to get to 10 opens. Not everyone that walks by is a cute, single, approachable girl in my age group!

Next time you're out at a packed venue and you want to chill for a bit, try posting up at a busy traffic section. Should be easier than walking back and forth throughout the venue physically chasing girls.
 

ElderPrice

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fog said:
yo did you try out any of my suggestions?
Some, yes. For the ones I didn't, it's not that I chose not to try them out, it's that I can only hold 2, mayyyyybe 3 mental notes or cues at a single time. Every time I go out, there's 2-3 things I'm focusing on or frames that I'm trying to remember to actively hold. I just can't remember a lot of things to try at once. Of your suggestions, here are the ones I noticed here and there throughout the weekend:

observe the way you move, your vocal tones, facial expressions, and all other parts of your behavior. is this behavior confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive?
To the best of my knowledge I'm doing these things confidently.

observe other people. is that person confident or unconfident? dominant or submissive? what makes them that way? are you perhaps displaying the same behaviours as that person?
This is easy to see. Many other guys have a loud/drunk/tough guy vibe about them which is obviously a more dominant vibe. I'm definitely not the same. Maybe I look a little tough standing still because I have some muscles, but probably not. I don't think I'm capable of being loud. I seem to have a very weak voice, even after reading a lot about voice projection and I've even seen a vocal coach to see if they could offer any tips. They said I seemed to be as loud as I could be and I'm not all that different from others. I don't really believe the latter part.

start observing your thoughts in interactions. do you feel the girl is higher value than you?
This is hard to do since my brain power is focused on the interaction. But I can say no, I do not feel as if the girl is higher value than me. Honestly, I don't really think about value. I don't think her as higher value, I don't think of me as higher value. I just think we're two humans. I'd be happy to try consciously thinking of myself as higher value, but that's just another of 1 million frames to hold during an interaction. I need to commit to, say, two frames to consciously hold throughout the day/night. Anything more than that and I won't remember.

believe you are higher value than every person you talk to. believe you are the coolest person to ever walk this planet. believe you are a rockstar.
This is the only one of your suggestions I didn't do this weekend. Again I didn't choose to not do it, I just couldn't hold on to a lot of active thoughts. Between checking out this venue I hadn't been to before, finding my friends, hanging with them, listening to some music, finding food, trying not to get sun burned, etc. it was just too much to hold frames. Also again, I can do better at this and this isn't the first time I've thought this. I need to keep practicing holding on to some active frames.

I've thought before that I may have gone too far with the DNGAF mindset. I've considered that I've taken it so far that I don't care enough to take hold of any frames. I've thought that I should change this and try caring a little more... by actually holding on to frames all day/night, such as "I am a rockstar." Does this make sense what I'm trying to say here? Another thing to work on.
 

ThePhoenix

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ElderPrice said:
Girls never approach me, even if Iʼm in the best mood ever.
Yeah, thatʼs normal. They expect the guy to do it. Iʼve probably only had it happen maybe 10 times or so in my whole life, and most of those times came from either (i) really eye‑catching style, (ii) being involved in events of an ethnic minority Iʼm not myself part of — so a lot of novelty, — or most often both. Ironically, none of those times went down nearly as well as some of the times Iʼve approached, but thatʼs partly due to errors on my part, and partly just numbers. When most interactions strike out, you need a lot of them in order to win. So yes, as you say, be proactive about it!


Regarding the concert. Itʼs a good start. Itʼs about twice as many approaches as Iʼve ever done in a single outing... but then, I disdain the local demographic.

That was and can be a good experience, but you may also want to try expanding out to more “mundane” environments. It was sort of day game, in that it was in the daytime, but socially that type of venue has more in common with club game — drinking, girls trying to be the center of attention, larger sets of girls out with their clique in a social mode, etc. Itʼs still a lot different than stopping a girl at a bus stop or café or supermarket — things I would normally associate with day game (and isnʼt always necessarily even in daylight — itʼs more a distinction of social mode than time‑of‑day). And yes, that takes super balls!

If either one of the following is true, I wouldnʼt strictly speaking call it day game: (i) there are dudes with alcohol in them nearby, or (ii) itʼs somewhere people would typically think to go to meet new people.

Cheers,
Phoenix
 

ThePhoenix

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ElderPrice said:
Many other guys have a loud/drunk/tough guy vibe about them which is obviously a more dominant vibe. Iʼm definitely not the same.
Quick thought experiment.

Who would you see as more dominaint? A loud/drunk/tough guy in the bar? Or the President of the U.S.A., sitting quitely in his chair?

(Well, the current U.S. president isnʼt exactly what I had in mind, but you get the idea.)
 

ElderPrice

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ThePhoenix said:
ElderPrice said:
Girls never approach me, even if Iʼm in the best mood ever.
Yeah, thatʼs normal. They expect the guy to do it. Iʼve probably only had it happen maybe 10 times or so in my whole life, and most of those times came from either (i) really eye‑catching style, (ii) being involved in events of an ethnic minority Iʼm not myself part of — so a lot of novelty, — or most often both. Ironically, none of those times went down nearly as well as some of the times Iʼve approached, but thatʼs partly due to errors on my part, and partly just numbers. When most interactions strike out, you need a lot of them in order to win. So yes, as you say, be proactive about it!


Regarding the concert. Itʼs a good start. Itʼs about twice as many approaches as Iʼve ever done in a single outing... but then, I disdain the local demographic.

That was and can be a good experience, but you may also want to try expanding out to more “mundane” environments. It was sort of day game, in that it was in the daytime, but socially that type of venue has more in common with club game — drinking, girls trying to be the center of attention, larger sets of girls out with their clique in a social mode, etc. Itʼs still a lot different than stopping a girl at a bus stop or café or supermarket — things I would normally associate with day game (and isnʼt always necessarily even in daylight — itʼs more a distinction of social mode than time‑of‑day). And yes, that takes super balls!

If either one of the following is true, I wouldnʼt strictly speaking call it day game: (i) there are dudes with alcohol in them nearby, or (ii) itʼs somewhere people would typically think to go to meet new people.

Cheers,
Phoenix
Hey man. Definitely agree that it was sort of day game. I think in my post I even called it cheating. Haha.

I'll keep trying to do more legit day game. I just hate the lack of volume. It annoys me. Haha.
 

ElderPrice

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ThePhoenix said:
ElderPrice said:
Many other guys have a loud/drunk/tough guy vibe about them which is obviously a more dominant vibe. Iʼm definitely not the same.
Quick thought experiment.

Who would you see as more dominaint? A loud/drunk/tough guy in the bar? Or the President of the U.S.A., sitting quitely in his chair?

(Well, the current U.S. president isnʼt exactly what I had in mind, but you get the idea.)
Interesting question. Depends on your exact parameters for the thought experiment. On one hand, the POTUS is always the center of attention wherever he goes. He's a celebrity with tons of security. In that regard, he's always going to be the dominant one. On another hand, I'm assuming a loud/drunk/tough guy could beat the shit out of most presidents, if for no other reason because presidents are often old. I wonder who would be the last president who could kick your ass while they were in office. Teddy Roosevelt? Now that's a thought experiment!
 

ThePhoenix

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ElderPrice said:
I think in my post I even called it cheating. Haha.
I thought that was the standing in one place part..  ;)

Which btw is probably not a bad thing at all, except that in most day game scenarios, it may not be an easy thing to do smoothly!

ElderPrice said:
Iʼll keep trying to do more legit day game. I just hate the lack of volume. It annoys me. Haha.
For volume, research, experiment, and be creative. I may have missed what is the population where you live; if itʼs really low you may benefit from moving.

Do you have access to any malls around one million square feet or more? I find those work (comparatively) well for me, because thereʼs typically a lot of traffic. (Usually itʼs so‑so during weekdays, but picks up around 4pm through 7pm and then peters out a little until close; but I typically go 2pm until close, just to warm up and get more economy of scale. And weekends are good, although for me they close earlier. Obviously this will vary with specific locations, so itʼs a matter of hanging out at different times and days and seeing whatʼs best.) Another good thing is that itʼs compartmentalized. The one I usually do has eight corridor segments, then of course all the stores, and three big box stores with one or two floors each. The idea here is that you donʼt have to worry so much about bystanders thinking youʼre doing serial approaches, lol. Just do one approach in one place and then a very brief walk and youʼre in a different spot not visible to the same people.

Another thing about a big mall is that there are a lot of typically young women working in the stores. Hitting on them is somewhat cheating, but it can help you to build some confidence. Just be aware that they get hit on a lot more (because it isnʼt as scary), so while theyʼre nearly guaranteed to be friendly — itʼs their job, — they may not close as easily. But I have had several such approaches go pretty good and got a date from one. For me, I found that at first it was a hell of a lot easier to hit on store workers than randoms, but as I got more used to approaching and also because I tend to stick to the same mall out of convenience, I started to flip around and now I find approaching the store workers harder because Iʼm aware of their scarcity and also donʼt want to blow my most fertile venue.

But thatʼs just one idea. Tons of ideas if you live in a sizeable city, and whatʼs best will depend on the city and also your style. Another might be to walk around the streets of a university campus, though that could take more care as you donʼt want to draw too much attention.

ElderPrice said:
On one hand, the POTUS is always the center of attention wherever he goes. Heʼs a celebrity with tons of security. In that regard, heʼs always going to be the dominant one. On another hand, Iʼm assuming a loud/drunk/tough guy could beat the shit out of most presidents, if for no other reason because presidents are often old.
Iʼm thinking you have a limiting belief, in which you equate dominance with popularity, attention, and/or physical toughness — which is a bad conceptualization for someone who is not naturally extroverted.

Maybe POTUS wasnʼt the best example, but another might be a mafia boss. Well, he does get attention too, but Iʼm more interested in his behaviour, not his popularity or the attention heʼs getting. Think about how he acts. He can just speak one word and youʼre dead. Do you think he raises his voice and acts rowdy? He doesnʼt need to. The loud drunk is the way he is because he has nothing else. In a way, heʼs insecure; not like the mafia boss at all.

Dominance means you get your way.

A practical example of dominance would be when Seppuku gets up on a date and simply tells the girl theyʼre going to go listen to some music. Here he is not even asking her, he is simply directing her to do as he pleases. She is, of course, free to refuse, but his behaviour simply assumes that she wonʼt, because he is so used to getting his way with women. That is dominance.

Phoenix
 
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