Observations ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Thanks guys for the additional thoughts. Responses below. Phoenix, this is for you. I'll do a separate post responding to Seppuku.

This is a bit of a guess, but Iʼm thinking here that you might possibly need either (i) stronger frame, or (ii) better excuses.
Hmmm. Regarding excuses, do you have an example of a stronger excuse and why it is indeed stronger? You're definitely right to some degree about needing a stronger frame. My frames always feel weak to me. Now, I don't know if they are indeed weak, or actually serviceable, but I'm sure my frame(s) can always be stronger.

At least try your home, and/or maybe some action in your car.
I've thought about saying the words to pull home just to see what happens. I once read a comment on some message board that suggested you can say what you need to to get her to agree to come over to your place, but then before you actually head there say 'oh crap I forgot so-and-so is happening at my place so that won't work. How about yours instead?'

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if my non-verbals weren't helping me when going for these pulls - it's definitely the only time during the date where I have some of any anxiety. How would you feel if you're attempting an ask yet again that's never worked once and your eyes are just insisting that she's not ready and is clearly, definitely not going to agree? I'm surprised I speak the words as calmly as I do.

But regarding the action in the car, Seppuku has advised this multiple times knowing I can't pull to my place, and I've kept this in the back of my mind on all my recent dates. But I have far more anxiety going for this type of pull. So how would it work? I come up with an excuse she will actually agree with that gets her in the passenger seat, then when I get in the driver seat I just turn and make a move? I really don't know if I can try this when a girl isn't showing me any indication of interest or approval to proceed. I mean keep in mind, these are girls that won't even reciprocate a touch on the forearm during a date. These are girls that clearly do not have doey eyes. These are girls that say shit about having to go, not trying to stay and keep the date going. I really think this is crossing the line IF you really are suggesting that on every date to get the girl into the car and escalate regardless of how receptive I think she is. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, this is another reason to try to pull to your place in spite of your parents.
I don't think I addressed your point here in previous replies. My parents are definitely in the conservative, awkward as fuck territory. And they share everything I do with their friends and other family members, and this just has always extremely embarrassed me. For basically all my life, I've shared as little about my life as possible with them. Just to avoid the embarrassment. Is it something I should confront and overcome? Yeah probably. Or I could just move out and avoid it. *shrug*

It could also come down to your recent “give vs. take” mentality. A “giver” could be construed as being the BF type. You may find a more useful mentality to be “taking what you donʼt deserve” vs. “taking what you do deserve.” Just a thought!
This is interesting and I'm going to think more about the mentality you suggested. But I do have to say I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement with girls after adopting my giver/taker mentality. And I probably did a poor job describing it, but "giver" is supposed to be someone who is sharing with the world, who is happy, high energy, and who makes others better - without expecting or wanting anything in return. Definitely not a provider-type. "Taker" is supposed to be someone broken, depressed, low energy, who is trying to suck energy out of others to supposedly make themselves feel better, without offering anything in return. It's not on the same plane as the lover/provider/friend concepts. At least not how I understand it.

Thank you again Phoenix!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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My reply for you, Seppuku:

it probably means that there is a big disconnect between what she was expecting when she accepted the date, and what she ultimately gets. What exactly were her expectations when she accepted? That is dependent on the underlying frame at the time you asked her out.
When you meet a girl at a dance night, the underlying frame (I think!) is you two are going to have a nice time in a socially acceptable way. Or something along these lines. Correct me if I'm wrong. You have to change that to a sexual frame from the get go or else you may be trapped in the initial frame.
I'm liking where this is going. This sounds like we're on to something.

I was going to say that I should probably describe exactly how I approach a girl here and ask them out. Fortunately Chase posted an article today that covers the meat of it! Haha. Check out How to Get Dates with Girls from Groups and Events. What Chase describes is similar to a dance night. It's definitely a group/event type of atmosphere so you can't just go straight to the pretty girls. And when you eventually get to them, you have to make it quick, get their contact info, and move on. The main way I can see that dance night is different is that dance night is also in many ways a giant social circle. There will be girls there for the first time who don't know anyone, but a majority of the people there will be regulars who know each other.

Anyway, for groups/events, Chase says to converse for 2-4 minutes, propose to grab a drink sometime, take her number, then if the conversation is meh, move on. You can keep talking if it's going well. Chase says if a girl is very into you, you can stay on her even more if you want to attempt to take her home that night. This is more challenging at dance night because of the social circle effect, and for dance night very few girls show up trying to get laid. Everyone's there to dance.

Anyway, I probably should try to explain my approach. I'll try the best I can.

First, as Chase says, when I arrive I say hi to all my friends. I start dancing with my female friends too. I'm just having a great time with all my friends. If/when I notice a cute new girl, I'll make my way over to her and ask her dance as if she's the next girl in my seeming quest to dance with as many girls as possible that night (for fun, not to score). Since new girls are always insecure about their newbie dancing abilities, I'll always say some funny/flirty stuff while dancing to help her relax and have a fun experience which girls always love. I wish I could think of exact examples to share, but none of them are canned lines. It's just spur of the moment, witty, funny, flirty jokes. When the dance is over, I can tell if she's interested or not. If she's not, she says thank you, quickly breaks eye contact, and quickly walks away. If she's interested, she won't go anywhere and she's happy to engage in a conversation. At this point, like Chase says, we converse for a few minutes (if that much), then I ask for a date and a number, and she agrees to both. I've been wondering if how I ask for the date is setting a bad frame? But I sort of refuse to believe such minor wording is dooming me to such a hard extent. I DO remember the ways I've asked girls out. I've said stuff like, "would you like to... meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime, go on a date sometime..." Seem pretty normal to me? Then again as Chase says, at this point I usually excuse myself to keep moving along to talk to more friends, dance with more female friends, and meet other new people.

So, in my opinion since I'm the only one here seeing these interactions, my hunch is that it's not the interactions per se that are killing me or setting the bad frame. They're short and sweet, flirty, and the girls don't hesitate to agree to a date or give me their numbers.

If there's a bad frame, then I think what you guys touched on might be it - that something about the circumstances of the dance night are setting a tough frame to work with no matter what I do. Here's my thought on it: For the regulars, I think it's pretty easy to see that they operate like a social circle. So the cold approach rules and fast sex game plans won't work so well there. The new girls that show up are the interesting ones. My guess is:
1. Yeah, who wouldn't be interested in finding a mate, but the #1 reason they're there is to learn how to partner dance and to practice partner dancing.
2. I'm sure it's hard for the girl to be down for fast sex with a guy she just met when she's actively considering becoming a regular. In other words, if there's a chance she loves this dance and is going to stick with it and join the social circle, then she's going to protect her reputation with anti-slut defense.
3. Whether it's a big factor or not, I'm probably not perceived at all as a one-time offer. As in, she can tell I'm a regular so I'm not going anywhere. Less urgency on her end to scoop me up.

Furthermore, in my opinion partner dance nights attract certain kinds of people. First off I know in one of Chase's articles where he talks about salsa night, he specifically says salsa night is a great night to meet "quality women." I believe I recall reading in another article the general idea that higher quality women expect more dates or more effort and want to see you work before giving you sex. Most girls I see are mid twenties or older, and while they often are very attractive, they just are never quite 9s or 10s. The very very few that show up are clearly there just to dance and really don't show up often since they're bombarded with guys asking for a dance non-stop. Furthermore, of the very attractive 7s and 8s that do regularly go to dance night, it seems like a high percentage are single mothers. Where I'm going with this is, after getting a feel for the types of girls that go to these things, it seems like there's a lot of factors to suggest that these may be girls more likely to resist fast sex and to want long, drawn out courtships.

It seems plausible seeing the contrast with some recent episodes of hitting the night clubs. There was that one girl that was super into me, gave me the doey eyes, and who was clearly DTF if it weren't for both of our horrendous logistics. There was the girl from the last time in the club that was super into me and made out with me twice. It's amazing to think that I've seen more doey eyes and makeouts from two(!) nights at the club than I have from months going to dance night.

I don't mean to suggest that the dance night is the source of my problems and therefore the solution is to drop it and just focus on day game and club game. Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner. The girls were just cold, not sexual, and lost interest very quickly. So it's not solely these girls I'm targeting. And besides, a decent PUA should be able to get girls from dance night. That's not supposed to be a challenge. So while I'm sure dance night isn't the best place for fast sex women, it doesn't seem like that's the definite factor screwing me up.

Looking internally, I think I can do better establishing a sexual frame. But I need help understanding what that means because I just don't get it. Like, I literally don't know what to do and when. I don't get how to verbally communicate a sexual frame when your conversation is 2-4 minutes long and there are lots of other things to talk about. I don't know how to communicate it right at the start of a date. I don't know how to hold a sexual frame. Don't get my wrong, I understand frames. There have been a couple girls I was able to convince that I'm an astronaut because I thought it would be fun to set that frame and try to hold it. But the sexual frame is just not one I can visualize. If I can't visualize what a sexual frame looks like, maybe my body language is yielding the frame? Maybe my word choice is yielding the frame? What literally do I do to set it and what literally do I do to hold it? What is my mindset and how does that come out through my word choice? These things I feel like I don't understand at all.

Thoughts? Thank you again Seppuku. You too, Phoenix. You guys rock!
 

Seppuku

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Hey EP,

Very good input. Maybe we are starting to get close to something. Here are my thoughts.

I suspect it all boils down to what these women are expecting to get from these salsa nights, and it's probably exactly that:
for dance night very few girls show up trying to get laid. Everyone's there to dance.
She expects to be invited for dances, have fun, then go home. Period. By default, she views the guys walking up to her as "dance partners". Guys who are going to give her the fun - the dance fun - and that's it. That is my guess.

That's where you need to set the interaction on the right track, right away. The first thing you need to communicate when you walk up to her is your sexual intent. You need some sort of electroshock that takes you out of the "dance partner" category.

I would suggest you treat it as a cold approach direct opener. Deliver a genuine compliment that makes it crystal clear what your interest is. The benefit is that it immediately sets the tone of a seductive mood. I'm not much of a cold approach guy, so best is to read the articles about it, or the many LRs here, but I'd guess something like "hey, I saw you from there, and I had to tell you that you look absolutely stunning. I'm EP". I like also Phoenix idea of putting yourself in a horny mood first before going to her. It's contagious.

This way, the tone is set immediately. Next, chat her up a bit, then invite her for dancing, and do your stuff. Then pitch the date.

I think it will help screening out congruence and expectations problems later on, when you are on a romantic date. How about you give it a try and see how it improves your results?

Now I have more comments.

First, as Chase says, when I arrive I say hi to all my friends. I start dancing with my female friends too. I'm just having a great time with all my friends.
That's all good stuff. It gives you social proof, preselection and status. All helpful.

If/when I notice a cute new girl, I'll make my way over to her and ask her dance as if she's the next girl in my seeming quest to dance with as many girls as possible that night (for fun, not to score).
This is where you need to start with this cold approach direct opener instead. You are giving her a different treatment than what she has seen you doing with other girls. It helps you to stand out, and helps the frame.

The rest of what you describes seems fine to me. Just a remark - but all this is minor form:

I've said stuff like, "would you like to... meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime, go on a date sometime..."
"Would you like to..." is coming from a week frame. Also remember that each time you frame it as a question, you make it easier for her to say just "No". Because of this, I usually use an affirmative sentence. It's not asking a question:
We should meet up sometime, grab a drink sometime, grab coffee sometime"
I wouldn't voice out "go on a date sometime", because that sounds like conventional BF/GF dating.

Also about your other remarks, yes, there must be some social circle factor (and social reputation), but as soon as she accepted the date with you, it shouldn't be a factor any longer - just remain extremely discreet. Perhaps communicate you're a discreet man.

"Quality girls" (the 9s and 10s). In general you can expect them to be used to meeting experienced guys - meaning from the top of the "sexual pyramid". Which means it's easier to get them when you are yourself experienced. But that shouldn't stop you from at least trying!

I don't mean to suggest that the dance night is the source of my problems and therefore the solution is to drop it and just focus on day game and club game. Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner.
Yes, there are probably more things to debug. But let's start by trying this direct opener compliment and see how it improves!

I have more comments to make on the idea of pulling to the car. Will do it separately.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Wow, lots of stuff here, but certainly I feel sexual intent is your main issue.

ElderPrice said:
Because even back when I was having dates from online dating, I was still bombing them in the same manner.
One thing about on-line is that, while the initial frame is definitely not platonic, it could easily be boyfriend, depending both on the site and how you work it. But I have zero experience with on‑line so Iʼll leave it there.

ElderPrice said:
And besides, a decent PUA should be able to get girls from dance night. Thatʼs not supposed to be a challenge. So while Iʼm sure dance night isnʼt the best place for fast sex women, it doesnʼt seem like thatʼs the definite factor screwing me up.
Iʼd be pragmatic here and say that you seriously need positive data points to give you more confidence, and that whatever venue is going to give you those the easiest, deserves more focus at this point. If youʼre having trouble shaking the “harmless fun” frame from dance night, it seems counter-productive to keep bashing your head on it. Maybe itʼs a comfort zone you need to step out of a little more.

Harmless guys generally do not talk to stranger women in most day game situations, especially not with a calmness and smoothness that suggests they do it all the time. That could well help overcome your initial frame problem. And while Iʼm not big on clubs, thatʼs a much more sexual initial frame, too, as youʼve seen.

With that said, your approaching as you describe doesnʼt sound terribly bad, but:

  • You might possibly be putting too much focus on being witty — a little wit is good, but your aim is to be a lover, not a jester.

  • Iʼm not sure youʼre doing enough to show sexual intent, and if I had to guess, youʼre not. A compliment is a good start. Also re‑read what I wrote earlier. Also look for posts or articles on having a “sexy vibe” — itʼs a lot of body language, and in part that also comes down to having the right mentality!

  • Dancing. There is one case where it can be a good way of opening: the Caribbean dance known as “wining”.. itʼs practically fucking with clothes on.. and Iʼve learned through much trial and error that you donʼt ask for a wine, you just take it! (Thereʼs a trick to that — body language is critical. Makes for excellent practice!  lol) Very strong, dominant sexual frame from the first moment. Ask a girl out after doing this, and sheʼd have to be braindead to not realize what youʼre up to.  XD As for the more “normal” dancing, I agree with Seppuku that youʼre much better off not opening that way. In fact, you might even play with not dancing with her at all, although that could take some creativity due to the context.

  • Agree totally with Seppukuʼs remarks on wording the date proposal. (Iʼm not even big on the word “sometime” as it feels a little weak or vague; itʼs something Iʼm trying to train myself out of, but sometimes itʼs hard not to, lol.)

ElderPrice said:
Regarding excuses, do you have an example of a stronger excuse and why it is indeed stronger?
See my prior post for the one I tend to use. That one is “strong” in the sense that, if she was to tell her girlfriend thatʼs why she came over, thereʼs a fair bit of plausible deniability — itʼs not like her girlfriendʼs automatic reaction would have to be, “yeah, sure, Iʼm sure thatʼs what you were doing.”  LOL. Of course, you need something that fits in with your own life.

But itʼs worth noting that itʼs better for it to not even matter. Seppukuʼs usual excuse also fits into the “yeah, sure” category, but it doesnʼt bother him — heʼs already got the girl basically open to sex, anyway.

I had almost thought my go‑to excuse was perhaps too good, in that it might actually set an asexual frame. However, I still got laid with it, mainly because I just sat the girl down on the couch and talked with her instead of actually showing her what she came to see. She didnʼt even ask until seven hours later, lol. Basically, whatever it takes to make her feel ok to come home with you.

ElderPrice said:
I once read a comment on some message board that suggested you can say what you need to to get her to agree to come over to your place, but then before you actually head there say ʼoh crap I forgot so-and-so is happening at my place so that wonʼt work. How about yours instead?ʼ
You can always try that. However, itʼs not as good, because (i) youʼre likely to come off as less sure of yourself on the initial ask, (ii) she may have logistics problems, and (iii) it precludes using things you have control over at home as genuinely good excuses to pull.

ElderPrice said:
My parents are definitely in the conservative, awkward as fuck territory. And they share everything I do with their friends and other family members, and this just has always extremely embarrassed me. For basically all my life, Iʼve shared as little about my life as possible with them. Just to avoid the embarrassment. Is it something I should confront and overcome? Yeah probably. Or I could just move out and avoid it. *shrug*
If you can get out, thatʼs your best bet of course.

But in the meantime, there are some possible corrections.

First of all, you really need a shift in mentality here, and I suspect this comes back to core frame issues. Taking home and sleeping with women is something to be proud of, not ashamed of!! Who gives a fuck if they tell their friends? Either their friends will admire you for it, or theyʼre idiots whose opinions are not worth thinking about.

As for the awkwardness factor during the encounter, can you minimize the contact? Go straight to your space without them getting much of a chance to talk to the girl? Invite her when theyʼre gone or asleep? I realize that isnʼt necessarily easy, but a girlʼs place is in general also a logistical mess due to factors you canʼt even predict — at least at your place, you know the issues in advance so you can try to plan around them.

ElderPrice said:
I really donʼt know if I can try this when a girl isnʼt showing me any indication of interest or approval to proceed. I mean keep in mind, these are girls that wonʼt even reciprocate a touch on the forearm during a date. These are girls that clearly do not have doey eyes.
While I suspect initial frame is your big sticking point, I have to wonder if you may also be digging yourself into a hole by putting mental emphasis on signs of interest. When you donʼt see any of the specific things youʼre looking for, on some level you become discouraged. You go on because weʼve told you to go on, but you do this with a feeling of defeat. This pessimism works its way into your non‑verbals, and this in turn causes the girl to actually lose attraction — which only serves to reinforce your fears and become a vicious cycle that spirals out of control.

Itʼs certainly a good sign when a woman is touching you, but they donʼt all do that. The surprise lay I had, on the date, there was very minimal touch and none reciprocated. Even back home, she largely kept her hands to herself pretty much up until the point where her vagina was preparing for penetration — she did get almost aggressive in those moments, but before then, pretty much nothing. When suddenly it became apparent she was horny, I was quite taken aback, because even moments before there had been essentially nothing in her behavior that would have led me to believe she wanted to have sex. The only real indication was that when I touched her in increasingly sexual ways, she didnʼt stop me, or pull back, or tense up. She just let me do what I wanted to.That may be the only sign you get.

ElderPrice said:
I really think this is crossing the line IF you really are suggesting that on every date to get the girl into the car and escalate regardless of how receptive I think she is.
If she flatly refuses and gentle persuasion doesnʼt work, then, yeah, give it up. If she responds to your touch by pulling back or tensing up, then yeah, ease off. But if sheʼs just neutral, see how far you can go — you just might be surprised.

As for specifics of escalating in a car, I have zero experience there so Iʼll leave that for Seppuku.

ElderPrice said:
This is interesting and Iʼm going to think more about the mentality you suggested. But I do have to say I have noticed a SIGNIFICANT improvement with girls after adopting my giver/taker mentality.
Reactions donʼt equal results. From a results standpoint, you at least make it sound like these girls are turning icy on dates instead of warming up. So I have to wonder if maybe you have gotten better at getting women to talk to you for all the wrong reasons. That is, youʼve switched from a “guilty” frame that puts them off from the first moment, to an “innocent” frame that invites friendship or boyfriendship but puts them off when they see thatʼs not what youʼre actually going for.

I do think itʼs good to be someone who is fun to be around as opposed to someone who itʼs depressing to be around. But if you focus on that too much, you could lose sight of the more important fact: itʼs a mating dance! Itʼs not about the girl having innocent, social fun — itʼs about getting her pregnant! (Well, at least figuratively.)

I know youʼve said youʼre comfortable in sexuality, but reading between the lines I have to wonder if on some unconscious level this is not entirely true.

The very fact that you had to center on this giver/taker paradigm suggests to me that youʼre on some level looking at sex as something that youʼre taking from a girl, and wrongly, at that. Like trying to fuck her makes you a leech. Having conservative, awkward parents has probably put dysfunctional attitudes about sex deep into your unconscious mind, and the broader society surely didnʼt help, either. I know you know better intellectually, but you may need more work at internalizing more healthy views.

As a male, when you see an attractive female, there is a natural urge to fuck her brains out — to penetrate her and consume her and bury your cum in her. And for as much as they hide it so convincingly, they have reciprocal urges. However, society tells you this is unwelcome and unacceptable and trains you, very pervasively, to reign in and suppress that urge completely. Just think, how often do you get erections in public? Itʼs such an embarrassment we train ourselves out of it early on. So Iʼve read, women get clitoral erections in public fairly commonly — only because nobody can see it, anyway.

You have been heavily conditioned into setting the wrong frame. There is a part of your psyche that has been conditioned to unconsciously communicate the message, “donʼt worry, Iʼm not trying to fuck you.

This may even explain your preference for dance night! It lets you talk to women without stepping out of the harmless guy mold.

Women are very attuned to this unconscious communication. Unfortunately, itʼs really hard to fake. There are some superficial things you can try to do (which Chase calls “fundamentals”), but you can only consciously control these so well and youʼll only get sporadic results until you internalize the right mentality. When you have the right mentality internalized, you wonʼt need to fake anything.

You have to give youself license to view women as sex objects — now, I donʼt mean this in a disparaging “get back in the kitchen” type way. What I mean is that sex is a central part of our humanity — sexual urges towards other humans should be embraced, not admonished. So if I see a girl walking ahead of me with that little switch in her ass, I let myself notice that. I let it really sink in how the way sheʼs moving is emphasizing her hips and her ass and how attractive I find it. If I happen to like the little naps in a girlʼs hair or her tits or her dark skin or juicy lips or pretty black eyes, I let myself really notice that. Even take it a step further by consciously reminding myself that Iʼm noticing because nature wants me to fuck her brains out, and how much Iʼd enjoy that! Iʼll almost feel it in my genitals. If sheʼs really attractive I may even think how sexy it would be to put a beautiful mixed baby in her. Just totally unfiltered!

Iʼll be honest that at first it did feel pretty awkward to let myself have such unfiltered sexual thoughts about complete random strangers. Thereʼs a trained reflex to try to kill thoughts like that. But every time I would catch myself feeling weird or awkward over it, I would stop myself and tell myself very consciously, “No, donʼt feel awkward. This is a natural and healthy desire.”

The good news is, since itʼs such a perfectly natural urge, itʼs not hard to awaken — you just need to open your mind to it. Iʼm still working on it, but over time Iʼve gotten a lot more comfortable looking at women sexually, and Iʼm pretty sure itʼs helped me. The more you normalize it, the better it will work.

You need to be comfortable in having and showing sexual desires. If you canʼt do this, literally nothing else matters because nothing is going to work.
 
 

Sub-Zero

Space Monkey
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Sep 6, 2014
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I think you should read Chase’s articles on being sexy, being smooth, not being a boyfriend, and developing a deep sexy voice.

I feel once you Internalize it, it’ll help you immensely.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Amazing responses again. Thank you all! Now for another round of my epic replies. I think I'll respond to certain points, then reply with my overall thoughts in order to re-set the conversation. Otherwise this is going to get very hard to follow since a lot of different points are being raised.

Seppuku, regarding trying a cold approach direct opener, I've tried some variations before. One time a girl REALLY caught my eye (she had a red dye streak in her hair and was wearing red short shorts showing off her amazing legs) so I went straight to her and said something like "Hi. I saw you come in and I must have a dance. I'm EP." I know it doesn't sound like much, but trust me, it had the same feeling, directness, and emotion as a more common direct opener. At the end of the night she gave me her card (ie. her number) and a week or two later we arranged a date that went and ended the exact same as all my others.

Agreed with all your 'minor' points afterward.

Phoenix, regarding selecting better venues, I've already been doing that. For a long time, yes, dance night was my night to meet girls and practice game, but over the past few months I've changed it up. As you know, I started hitting nightclubs, and really dance nights are now social circle nights to have fun. Sure, I'll practice game on new girls if opportunities present themselves, but yes I am shifting to trying nightclubs and of course incorporate far more legit day game.

Regarding pulling home to my parents house, while I'm not there yet, I CAN say that in the last month or so I've started thinking about doing it. Like, if it's 2am or something and a girl is ready, I can probably quietly bring her to my room and quietly fuck her. Probably lol. I'm thinking about it!

Regarding going for it when she's not showing any useful signs... I don't know what more to say. We are talking about outlier girls here, right? Like, a normal girl should give much clearer signs to proceed, right? I get that you're saying there will be girls that show no indication whatsoever, but still want you to proceed. But that's not a normal girl, right?

Regarding your final thoughts on the best mindset, let me first start by elaborating on the results I have gotten recently. Up until January, for a couple years straight I was going on date after date after date with all of them going and ending the exact same manner, as I've described. The girls were cold and uninterested, there were virtually zero second dates, and basically all of these girls ghosted me after those first dates. Seppuku first started helping me during this time. After my last date at the end of January, I hit a very cold stretch. I just couldn't find a next date to try Seppuku's suggestions to save me! Then, whatever it was - 1 month or 2 ago -, I discovered that giving/taking paradigm. As I noted in the journal, I started seeing immediately better results (and/or reactions). Everything in life just got better with that change in mindset. Then, lo and behold, I started getting dates again.

Since the new mindset (and since January), I've gone out with 4 girls (one of them I haven't mentioned in my journal yet).
Girl 1 - One date so far, she still answers my texts, and seems to be willing to see me a second time (haven't asked yet).
Girl 2 - One date, then ghosted.
Girl 3 - Two date, she still answers my texts, and she's definitely willing to see me again in some capacity.
Girl 4 - Met her dancing, met up with her a week later for more dancing, we hopped to a club where she grinded on me and got physical, she answers my texts immediately and texts me often, and we're seeing each other again this weekend.

A small sample size, sure, but we may be seeing a new trend here. Compared to, I don't know, virtually 20-30 dates in a row that were date-then-ghost, this is going in a much better direction. This month or so of dates has been the best dating I've ever experienced in my life. So I'm quite optimistic that some sort of progress is being made.

Okay now for my general thoughts.

So I of course read your replies (Seppuku, Phoenix, Sub-Zero). I also was curious for an additional viewpoint, so I checked to see if RSD had a video on first dates. They basically had one. It included two coaches/instructors. One suggested the standard meet for coffee > pull home template. The other one to my surprise proposed something different. I wouldn't expect this from a professional, experienced dating coach. I'm really summarizing here, but he basically said invite the girl and other girls to join you on a hike. It's not a date - it's more like an hour in a day of your life that she gets to join you for. THEN the second 'date' can be 1-on-1. So, he sort of treats it like a social circle. It's like inviting female friends to hang out with you, then one day you can invite her over, or somehow you and her get isolated, then something can happen.

I was already suspecting the dance scene should be treated like a social circle, even if I met girls there 'cold approaching' them, and this interesting take on dating has increased my suspicions. It also makes sense because as I was reading the article today, How to Escalate with Girls in Social Circle, it mentioned a very key point I may have been totally ignoring. Peter writes that one of the differences in social circle vs. cold approach is that in social circle, "you will almost definitely see the girl again after you've hooked up with her." This is definitely true for a dance scene. Even if a girl is coming out to dance for the first time ever, there's a chance she may like it and come back again, which means there's a chance we will bump into each other again. This sounds to me like it explains why I've struggled with girls at dance night. No matter how much it might feel like cold approaching, at the end of the day, it sounds exactly like a social circle.

So here's what I'm thinking right now to try or work on, after taking everything into consideration:

- When going to a nightclub or doing actual day game, the goal will continue to be sex as quickly as possible. I will keep trying to crack the coffee/drink -> pull template.
- When going to dance night, I'm going to treat it entirely like a social circle. That means befriend all girls, hang out with them in a group as often as possible, try to arrange things to do as a group outside of dancing (like, say, brunch, dinner, movies, etc), then eventually meetup with these girls 1-on-1, discreetly, and see if that works and if their attraction builds over time. I will use the article How to Escalate with Girls in Social Circle as a reference.

- For my overall game, I will work on being more sexual, and I will continue working on doing better with frames. I will also work harder at disqualifying myself as a boyfriend.

That's probably all I'm capable of focusing on at the moment. What do you guys think? Sound like a decent plan? Thanks again everyone!
 

Sub-Zero

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How often do you try to get alone with a girl? Like go to their crib or whatever?

If you do it a lot and get no results and chicks go ghost, then you need to amp up your sex appeal.

If you don’t ask, then that’s why they go ghost.

Your problem has to be you not being sexy enough to these women, you’re going on a lot of dates, so there is some attraction there.

I personally don’t think a girl would waste her time to get a coffee or something cheap with a guy that don’t like at all.

That seems to be the recommendation.

Now listen, don’t be try hard and force it too much. Don’t try to be too sexy you might look corny, and don’t try to touch girls too much where it feels forced.

Be cool and chill.

Keep up the work my man.
 

ThePhoenix

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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EP,

Iʼll break my thoughts into the main themes youʼve touched on:


Seemingly Interested Girls

I think the girls youʼre encouraged about potentially seeing again are a mixed blessing. On one hand, itʼs good that your confidence is improving from not always being totally ghosted right off the bat. However, I also think youʼre falling into a trap with them that is all too common with beginners and one which Iʼve fallen into myself.

Basically, their apparent continued attention gives you that rush of excitement that a pretty girl is paying attention to you. Attention like that is naturally exciting to us guys when we are in a position of scarcity and used to getting nothing. You become invested emotionally. You get your hopes up on these girls. But what do you get in the end? Almost always, nothing. Iʼve been there a number of times. Itʼs easier to fool yourself into thinking that youʼve got a good chance with them, than it is to realize you fucked up during the very brief window of opportunity where it really mattered and that you have to start all over from square one with a new girl.

The first time I got laid, was it one of those numerous girls I had felt those “good vibes” about and was sure Iʼd see again? No. It came when I finally just went with the process of, meet a new girl, try to get her alone right away and fuck her right away. It goes back to the Sexy Son Hypothesis. If sex didnʼt happen on the first date, youʼve failed. Youʼre “not that kind of man.” End of story.

This is not to say itʼs impossible to pull on a subsequent date, but from all Iʼve seen and experienced, by far the girl youʼre most likely to fuck is the one youʼve just met. Pulling off of further dates or meetings is something that requires a much stronger frame, more reference points, better experience. Seppukuʼs advice to leave the second date tactics to a later stage was solid. The advanced guy can in some cases pull that off, but the beginner is just going to chase down a dead end, like the naïve poker player who keeps throwing more chips into the pot in an increasingly irrational and deluded manner even as mathematics would have told the skilled player to fold and cut their losses.

I want to say, sure, as long as you donʼt get your hopes up, you may as well give the subsequent date a shot, but I canʼt even bring myself to suggest it, because I have a feeling that you need to internalize more just how critical it is to sleep with a girl on the first meet.

Which ties into my next point...


Social Circle

This is a tough nut to crack. Some guys are good at it, but to me I think itʼs the Kung‑Fu of dating. I feel it would be unwise to invest any real attention into it until you have gotten at least a few good lays through cold approach (or possibly on‑line) and hopefully some repeat lays.

Part of the problem with social circle, apart from the obvious problems of social repercussions, goes back, again, to the Sexy Son Hypothesis. When a guy becomes familiar to a girl by some means other than his dick winding up in her pussy, her default conclusion is that this is “not that kind of man” — not a male who goes around impregnating lots of females. It is possible to avoid this conclusion, but to do so, you have to be oozing sexy. This is not something inexperienced guys are generally capable of.

I think one of the reasons that quick lays are easier is that, even if youʼre not all that great at exuding a sexy persona, youʼre not giving the girl enough time to come to that conclusion. You start off as this mysterious guy that she hasnʼt figured out. Sheʼs constantly trying to peg you. If youʼre not yet extremely sexual, the longer you give her to observe you, the clearer itʼs going to become to her that youʼre not sexual, and the worse off your chances get.

Plus, the effect of social risk canʼt be neglected, as I think youʼre aware. Women become the easiest in situations that donʼt risk their reputation. Ask Seppuku; I think he will tell you that the easiest lays heʼs gotten have been when he was only in a town for a brief visit — a situation where the girlʼs risks are about as small as they could get.

If you go through these boards youʼll see time after time a guy trying to fix up problems with a girl from social circle. Tons of ASD and LMR. Guys getting friendzoned. Guys getting strung along with lots of attention but no sex. Itʼs a really hard type of game. I wouldnʼt waste my energy on it at this point. You can hang out socially just to have a social life, but at this stage, donʼt look at it as a way to learn women or to get laid.

From that perspective, if you want to approach new girls at dance night, I think you should at least try Seppukuʼs advice to try cold approach and totally disconnect from the dance partner frame. I realize youʼve tried what felt to you like a normal cold open, but I feel you still went into dancing too quickly. Iʼd be more inclined to (i) express sexual intent, (ii) chat her up a little, (iii) propose a meet and get her contact, and only then (iv) as an afterthought, dance with her a bit, or better yet, donʼt at all. Try it! I think youʼll find that the ones you do get out for a meet, will be more receptive. (You will probably get more immediate rejections, but those were dead‑ends anyway.)


Signs of Interest

ElderPrice said:
Regarding going for it when sheʼs not showing any useful signs... I donʼt know what more to say. We are talking about outlier girls here, right? Like, a normal girl should give much clearer signs to proceed, right? I get that youʼre saying there will be girls that show no indication whatsoever, but still want you to proceed. But thatʼs not a normal girl, right?
I wouldnʼt be too quick to say it isnʼt normal. Itʼs certainly been consistent with my experiences. Now, Iʼm presently fighting (for me) shitty demographics, so my overall volume of experience is not high, but qualitatively itʼs certainly been the case that signs of interest tend not to be overt, I suspect in many women.

In fact, Iʼd almost venture to say that women that show more overt interest are not necessarily all that interested, and may just be flirty or trying to get something out of you. Take this to extreme: walk into a strip club. Most probably, youʼll have a girl all over you in no time, displaying all kinds of extremely flirty overt interest. But all she really wants is you to pay for a dance. I donʼt have such a first-hand experience, but if I was in a strip club and a stripper was sitting around talking to me without doing all that gushy bullshit they normally do, Iʼd be quite encouraged to invite her home!

Another way to look at it, is that women want a man to be the aggressor. The more aggressive she has to be, the less she feels like sheʼs being swept off her feet. In a way, it filters for sexual confidence, since men who are not sexually confident need a lot of encouragement in order to proceed.

You may want to pose this as a question to more experienced guys. But really, I think youʼll be better off by internalizing that at the end of the date, only one thing matters: she follows you home or not. Seppuku summed it up to me as: She likes you, she follows you.


Mindset

You have seen good improvement in overall friendliness of women. That is one good aspect. I think this is simply a product of you not perceiving yourself as a loser. But at once I still feel you need adjustments to avoid falling into the trap of being the friendly, innocent guy who puts others first. This guy makes friends easily, but it doesnʼt mean he gets laid.

I do really suspect, especially given your emphasis of giver/taker, that a missing link is to be totally unashamed of your own desires and focussing on getting what YOU want. The guys who are just naturally very good with women are often perceived as assholes — something worth thinking about. (Iʼm not suggesting to be a total asshole, but that it is useful to realize how and why they attract women so easily.)

I think Chase has some related articles you may want to look at, about “devil may care” attitude and “how to be an asshole”. I seem to remember something about his success going up noticeably in one particular place when he did up his hair or facial hair in the stereotypical “douchebag” look.

Iʼm generally a fairly pleasant and caring person, but I also do naturally have a definite selfish side, and I suspect that the combination helps me.


Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Phoenix, thank you again for another amazing reply!

Seemingly Interested Girls -

I understand and agree with all the concepts you're saying here. I promise you my hopes aren't up. If these were super hot girls... maybe... lol. But they're not at that level. Regardless, I'm treating these girls like "okay this is cool. Let's just see where they go. No matter what happens, I'll get new reference points for myself." And I still plan to continue going out and meeting new girls.

Now so far, two of these girls are actually going in the right direction results-wise. The one I referred to as Girl 4 I've seen three times now. The last time I led us both back to her apartment. She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her. Since then she's just as interested and responsive as she was before. We haven't yet arranged anything for this weekend yet, but I plan to see her again and go all the way. I'll report back if/when that happens. Girl 3 still loves hanging out with me. Again, we'll just see where it goes. No high hopes on my end.


Social Circle -

Not sure what much more I can add here. There's social circle - related things I want to try, and yes, that is while acknowledging that social circle game is indeed different than cold approach. Probably harder. Definitely requires more time and more commitment.

All I know is that if I'm going to be building a social circle and making new friends as I'm out meeting girls and people in general, I definitely would rather be the guy that fucks his girl friends, rather than not.

Also - and I know you guys are going to talk me out of this.. I know, I've read the articles - but after all the approaching I've done and all the girls I've gotten something from, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of not even coming close with the girls that I find truly attractive. I want to sleep with the stunning girls with bodies that really blow me away. They just never respond to my cold approach. To be fair, I haven't done enough day game to draw this conclusion, but until I find time for that, I'm getting tired of going nowhere with truly smoking girls at night. One way to get hotter girls is through social circle. So that's another motivation for why I want to try developing my social circle more and learn how to navigate it to get some good results. And besides, since treating dance night as cold approach may not be working, treating it like a social circle is worth trying for the reference point.


Signs of Interest -

Yeah, again I'm not sure what more to say here that hasn't been discussed before. I still suspect we're talking past each other a little bit. When I say "signs of interest" I'm referring to signs like those mentioned in "Book Excerpts: Signs She Likes You" and "11 Ways Women Express Interest that Most Guys Miss." I just never see these on dates, save the two aforementioned girls. Are you saying you never see any of these either on your dates? Or you do see some of these signs?


Mindset -

Yep I'll work on this!


Thanks again Phoenix!
 

Seppuku

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EP,

there have been many good things written over here, with excellent input from Phoenix. This is the seduction mindset in a nutshell. But I also noticed this:
The one I referred to as Girl 4 I've seen three times now. The last time I led us both back to her apartment. She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her.
First of all congratulations! Yes, that is exactly the spirit!

If you can set yourself doing that as your primary objective each time you meet a new girl, you will get the sexual confidence and masculine assurance that will transpire into your vibe, and change your interactions for the better. Escalation tip: when you are escalating her, grab her hand, place it on your crotch, and tell her "meet my good friend". Some girls get instantly horny as soon as they feel the hard member in their hand. She may start taking the initiative at this point, and extract it from the trousers. Also, read all you can on escalating through LMR. It's usually the time to be persistent.

But well, I really hope to read more from you on Girl 4.

Your girl 3, if it's the very same you described before, is seeking emotional validation. If my experience is any guide, she will enjoy you dating her around as long as she can, and you probably won't get much in return. If you have other options at hand, your time will be better spent elsewhere. But well, don't take what I'm saying at face value, go and enjoy dating her if you like, but just be aware.

Now let's recap on all the previous exchanges.

Dance nights similar to social circle. Yes we are up to something here. It will make it harder, for sure. The "social anxiety" as described by Phoenix is a real factor. And yes, while I'm at it, my easiest pulls were always when I was traveling. Much less social anxiety with a complete stranger from out of town. It's real! However you should be able to succeed once in a while. I used to get girlfriends from dance classes back in my days (in the 1990s), and I didn't know *anything* about seduction.

Not showing sexual intent upfront. That was a very good remark. If you want to succeed in dance nights, you have to set yourself clearly in sexual territory from the very beginning. She has to view you different. Or else you may face congruence problems later on during the date. I read your answer, but I don't think you invalidated what I said. Be much bolder than that in your compliment opener.
ThePhoenix said:
From that perspective, if you want to approach new girls at dance night, I think you should at least try Seppukuʼs advice to try cold approach and totally disconnect from the dance partner frame. I realize youʼve tried what felt to you like a normal cold open, but I feel you still went into dancing too quickly. Iʼd be more inclined to (i) express sexual intent, (ii) chat her up a little, (iii) propose a meet and get her contact, and only then (iv) as an afterthought, dance with her a bit, or better yet, donʼt at all. Try it! I think youʼll find that the ones you do get out for a meet, will be more receptive. (You will probably get more immediate rejections, but those were dead‑ends anyway.
Phoenix said it very well.

Signs of interest. Let's keep it simple. The only sign of interest you need to worry about is, does she follows your lead. That is also why I like to take her hand in mine, so much. I will get an instant indication about how well she follows me, just from how her hand feels in mine. That is the best sign of interest of all. But you can test her willingness to follow you using any other mean you can think of. Try getting compliance, for instance. That's right: She likes you, she follows you. If you have a girl you feel is following your lead well, then lead her to your / her home.

By the way, that's also why Girl 3 probably won't work. From the description you made of your first date, she was the one deciding the terms of the date. In other words, she leads and you follow. I see this pattern myself sometimes, a girl who wants to stay in control. It usually doesn't work.

Hitting the "really attractive" girls. Well, but these are the ones with whom you will be least outcome independent with. And outcome independence is central to seduction. The moment she feels you give a fuck is the moment you start losing her. Sad but so true. If she feels you are somewhat anxious to succeed with her, it signals her a lot of negative things. Not that kind of man. So that's why I suggest you leave these ones out for now, and focus on the "just cute" girls that you don't care so much about. It will make things much easier. THEN when you have more experience, you will find it easier to walk up the food chain, so to speak.

At the moment, the fear of losing her is your enemy.
 

ThePhoenix

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ElderPrice said:
She just did not want to go all the way, but at least I got to suck her tits and finger her.
 
First of all, congratulations, thatʼs great to hear!

Definitely give that one another shot, but if you do get the all‑too‑common “failed mating attempt” drama, just take it all as encouragement to be more aggressive next time with a new girl. When you see whatʼs possible, it makes it mentally easier to escalate.

ElderPrice said:
I definitely would rather be the guy that fucks his girl friends, rather than not.
Totally get this. Just know that youʼre much more likely to actually reach this goal by getting a good bit of positive experience from other styles of game first — especially as an introvert. The world of social circle is littered with the graves of would‑be seducers turned orbiters.

ElderPrice said:
I want to sleep with the stunning girls with bodies that really blow me away.
I can really relate to not feeling most girls. I would shoot myself in the head before hitting on anything other than a black woman. This is, however, remarkably unhelpful, being that they make under 10% of our female population. I struggle with very bad approach anxiety, and I strongly suspect that it has been made much worse by most women around me being off my radar. I plan to move to Africa — thatʼs how strongly I believe that I canʼt succeed without being open to hitting on the majority of women around me.

Iʼm quite visual, and there are certain looks I just totally love — in particular tall, dark South Sudanese women. But I have to draw the line somewhere because if I only hit on what I considered truly hot black women, Iʼd still be a virgin. So while I am not in love with the mixed girls or black girls addicted to perm or weave or black girls that arenʼt tall or black girls that are a little chunky or what have you, I try to hit on those anyway because I need the reference points. First girl I seduced was far from my ideal; she was black and cute enough I wasnʼt ashamed to hit on her, but still quite far from stunning to me.

Iʼm not going to say to hit on girls you really donʼt want to hit on — there has to be some attraction there, — but the wider you can cast your net, the better. Youʼll be in a better place mentally for when you meet the stunning ones.

ElderPrice said:
They just never respond to my cold approach.
This is not a problem youʼre going to solve through social circle game. Hot girl who doesnʼt respond through cold approach but does respond in social circle settings translates to hot girl who has friendzoned you. You need to fix the initial frame youʼre setting, regardless of how youʼre meeting the women — and this is so much harder to fix in social game, due to both very small margin for error and deceptive feedback.

What I mean by deceptive feedback is, youʼre actually better off having girl after girl blow you off then you are having a bunch of smiling, laughing girls who always respond to your texts but wonʼt sleep with you — think your Girl #3. At least when women are blowing you off, you get immediate feedback that youʼve done something wrong, as opposed to wasting your time pursuing a bunch of dead‑ends.

ElderPrice said:
To be fair, I havenʼt done enough day game to draw this conclusion, but until I find time for that, Iʼm getting tired of going nowhere with truly smoking girls at night. One way to get hotter girls is through social circle.
Rationally, the women you can access through social circle are no hotter than the ones you can find in day game. All women go shopping or take trains or walk down the street or what have you. Every single one of those women you see in dance night, you could have bumped into randomly if you were out enough in random places.

(They may not put on as much of an act to look as hot, but if you need a girl to be gussied up and dressed to the nines to realize sheʼs hot, Iʼd call that more of a problem with your perception — I personally hate makeup, lol.)

Itʼs also a lot easier to attract hot women in those day game type settings where they are not literally surrounded by guys spoon‑feeding them validation.

ElderPrice said:
And besides, since treating dance night as cold approach may not be working ...
Unless thereʼs tons you havenʼt mentioned, I donʼt think youʼve tried nearly enough to come to this conclusion. Give a good try to our suggested approach, before you decide.

ElderPrice said:
When I say “signs of interest” Iʼm referring to signs like those mentioned in “Book Excerpts: Signs She Likes You” and “11 Ways Women Express Interest that Most Guys Miss.” I just never see these on dates, save the two aforementioned girls. Are you saying you never see any of these either on your dates? Or you do see some of these signs?
I read both of those articles and tried to mentally survey how much of that stuff I have had happen to me. The list was pretty unimpressive — of course, thatʼs partly my limited experience, but most of the success Iʼve had so far was not accompanied by any of those signs, at least that I noticed or can remember, with some limited exceptions.

To be honest, some of those signs are so small youʼd either not consciously recognize/remember them, or else drive yourself bonkers watching for them (and probably fucking up with the girl in the process).

Seppuku summed it up well.


Phoenix
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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245
Thanks again for the tips, guys!

Please understand that even though we're having a fantastic discussion here...... this last month or two have been the best dating months of my life and I'm absolutely loving the progress I'm making! I don't know if we'll ever be able to say concretely what did it, but I've been on more dates in the last month or two than what feels like the entire last year. Definitely the last 6 months. And I've absolutely gone on more 'dates in addition to the first' (meaning second dates, third dates, etc.) in this month or two than I ever have in the rest of my life combined. Something's working!

As a matter of fact, I've been going on so many dates that I haven't had time to legit cold approach for a solid month or two. Weekends have just been booked with social circle time and multiple dates with different girls.

So I'll keep at it. I'll report back as soon as I have something new or worthwhile to report. Shouldn't be much longer than a week or two. Thanks again!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
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6/11/19 @#$%

Had an opportunity to lose my virginity last night. Dick refused to work. I posted on the Beginner board for feedback: https://boards.girlschase.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20816

It was the same girl from the previous post. The one who let me do some things but resisted going all the way. She didn't resist this time. She complied with everything. Now, she was sleepy so she didn't help at all to arouse me, but she wasn't resisting anything.

It's definitely Mental ED and definitely caused by anxiety or just generally not being fully comfortable. I have no clue how to quickly remedy this. Because if I have to be 100% comfortable to get hard, then I don't know what to do. I'm never 100% comfortable unless I'm alone at home. Any other time there's at least some level of discomfort, even if it's 1% or 5%.

It wasn't a desire issue. I was sucking this girl's tits, rubbing my face and dick on her legs, squeezing her ass, you name it. I was sooooo determined to seize the opportunity and lose my V card. I even layed there for a half hour trying to rub Jr. awake myself. But nothing worked. Nothing aroused me enough to get hard, especially in the face of a tiny bit of anxiety/excitement.

The good news is this girl seems to legitimately like me, so I'm actually confident I'll get more opportunities. But still. I don't know how to remedy this. @#$%!
 

SpookyTannedMoose

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Dude! What awesome progress, this is inspiring. It is definitely a mental issue. I had the same problem when I lost mine, luckily she was patient and we tried again the next morning - sounds like you've found someone similar. I didn't get much sleep at all that night because I was so stressed about it. I can't really give any more advice than what has already been said by the others but soldier on!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
SpookyTannedMoose said:
Dude! What awesome progress, this is inspiring. It is definitely a mental issue. I had the same problem when I lost mine, luckily she was patient and we tried again the next morning - sounds like you've found someone similar. I didn't get much sleep at all that night because I was so stressed about it. I can't really give any more advice than what has already been said by the others but soldier on!
Thank you my man! Glad this is inspiring!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
7/27/19 Not much of an update

Haven't posted in over a month unfortunately because I don't have much of an update.

The girls I've been working on have fizzled away because I just couldn't make sex happen. That part has definitely been the most challenging part for me.

Anyway, here's what I'm at/what I'm working on:
- With the girls I've been working on fading away, I now have time again to go back to cold approaching. I'm looking forward to it. Night game is still easier for me as far as time and my schedule go. But I really want to do more day game. It's just hard to get up in a timely manner from the night before, do all of your productive to-dos, and still have time for day game. I know I'm going to have to sacrifice night game to make it work. Unfortunately part of my brain insists I do night game so that I could just go beast mode and do both and meet a TON of girls over the weekend. I have to keep reminding that part of my brain that I only have the time or energy for one! Lol

- The social circle experiment has been interesting, but as I said, I'm looking forward to working on cold approaching again. I think everything I've been doing in social circle has been helpful, but it seems like it's at the point that for it to keep progressing, I need to start taking the lead and putting groups/events together myself. This is proving difficult because I don't drink, I can't go outside much at the moment, and I don't have my own place to host stuff at. It's hard to think of fun things to do that would interest a big group of friends that meet this criteria.

- I've completed two months on accutane and I have yet to see any results, aside from side effects. Doctor says it might need another 1-3 months to see something since I'm going lower dose / longer term. Because I'm on accutane, I pretty much can't be out in the sun.

- I'm making progress finding a roommate. A couple candidates emerged. One of them I'd be signing a new lease with so that's kept me accountable to do a better job of looking for places each weekend. We know about the area we want to be in, now it's just a matter of finding a rental we both like. This is becoming an increasing priority for me because I just feel like Game for me is 10,000x harder without my own place. Some days I feel like focusing all my energy on getting this solved and like why should I even bother meeting new girls while playing on such a ridiculous difficulty.. if that makes sense.

- I've been thinking more about my odd ED. I mentioned this in one of my last posts. So, I'm starting to embrace the idea that Elder Jr is just super sensitive on the first go and there's nothing I can do about it. Whether that's true or not is fine, but if I'm getting laid anytime soon, I think I need to accept there's nothing I can do to immediately fix it and to instead pre-plan around it. Basically, any stimulation and Jr will pop. Whether that's a girl grinding on him on the dance floor or a girl lightly touching him with her hand. Or even one time when I was comfortably masturbating by myself, Jr popped at the TOUCH of a condom. (Figured I should practice putting one on myself instead of waiting when with a girl...) Couldn't even get it on half way before I popped. Weird right? But after that first pop he functions a lot more normally. He can handle far more stimulation. He can handle wearing a condom after the first go round. Anyway, just a weird thing to deal with. And no, rubbing one out won't really work. Either I just can't do it discreetly when home with my parents, or the other issue is it really needs to be pretty immediate before the real deal. Rubbing one out 3 hours before the action just won't desensitize him like 30 minutes will.

- If there's one particularly positive achievement that I feel good about from the last month, it's that I was able to get phone numbers from two smoking hot hired guns in the same night. I've never been able to get anything close to that result before when I've tried for hired guns. But one weekend I met with friends for happy hour/dinner. Our waitress was gorgeous and just acting very warm toward me. I asked for her number and she actually wrote it on the check. After that my friends and I went to a club. It was a slowish night. I walk into the main dance area and I see a stunning bottle service girl just standing by a table waiting for business to pick up. I playfully chat with her then walk away. I repeated this 2-3 times throughout the night. Then on the last one I asked for her number and she gave it to me. Neither have responded (oh well lol) but still, I got phone numbers from two hired guns and two of the most attractive girls I've come across, on the same night. Probably sounds lame, but it sounds cool to me.

- I think I'm getting tired of partner dancing. It's still fun, but it's just not looking like the best use of my time for meeting girls and sleeping with them. I'll give it another hurah when I move out on my own. I'd like to try texting some of these female friends to come over and help me eat this xyz lunch I just cooked for myself just to see what would happen.

That's all I can think of for now. Oh and also work is starting to get more stressful and time intensive so I'm sure that won't be a problem at all... lol
 

JacobPalmer

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
293
Regarding the acutane - switch to a whole foods, plant based diet. I've never had better skin before.
 

Seppuku

Tribal Elder
Tribal Elder
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
1,075
Location
Middle East, Asia, Africa
Hey EP,

The girls I've been working on have fizzled away because I just couldn't make sex happen. That part has definitely been the most challenging part for me.
It's an important part of the realization. Quoting Chase again - my favorite quote from him:
Chase said:
Dating is a mating ritual, and when it doesn't end with mating, the male is dismissed as impotent
(more or less, from memory). Every man should learn this quote by heart, because it is so true.

It is one thing to read it however, and another thing to experience it and understand it deep down. You are getting there.

The next step of realization, along the same logic, is that your best chance to make sex happens is on the first date. Exactly the title of the article I wrote a few months back. It's still reasonably possible on date 2. Past that, the chances of success vanish quickly. The exception could be with a girl who have very little experience of dating (her window will be open longer if she likes you) but nowadays any girl 20+ years old is past that. It is even more true the older you are, because you are expected to know how to make things happen.

Hopefully you will get there soon.

A successful date template is as follows:
  • Have your logistic ready (a place to isolate her)
  • Go on a date, with plenty of time ahead.
  • Follow the simplest date template you can. Simple venue, just you two side by side, no dancing, no friends or parties or cinema. A couple of drinks. Avoid dating cliches such as restaurants which are counterproductive.
  • Maximum 2 hours into the date, end it, settle the bills and leave the venue with her
  • Lead to your home
  • At home, escalate.
In the process, simply ignore all the unhelpful stuff she might be throwing at you. Ignore the signs, or lack thereof, and just follow the script above.

Leading to your home can involve some subtleties. In a nutshell, don't seek to obtain her permission, such as asking her if she's OK with it (she will say NO if only to preserve her good girl image). You can use a position of authority, or assume the sale has already been done, etc... She may throw some shit at you to test your masculine resolve, but if she likes you, she will follow you anyway. Just persist.

Once you have done that a few times, you will realize how easy it really was.

Good luck.

Seppuku
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
8/1/19 New game plan

I've been thinking a lot lately about my interactions with girls over the past few months. It's been a while since I actually sat and analyzed and thought about them to try and improve them.

While I have definitely done better getting numbers, getting dates, and keeping girls interested for a little longer, I noticed I'm still just not generating strong interest, especially from any girl remotely good looking.

A friend shared a story for what success should look like, and this helped get me thinking. He's about 40, met a girl dancing, I think she's about 25. Yadda yadda yadda they connect on Facebook. While they're out at this social circle setting she Messages him stuff like "you're hot." He plays it cool. Doesn't take her home. They arrange a date soon after and end up fucking all night. The part that got me was the texting part. I can't fathom having a girl text me like that, or send nudes, or anything like that.

So I accept this to mean I still have a TON I have to work on, particularly when it comes to vibes and frames. My friend doesn't utilize much social proof, he's not the center of attention, life of the party, or anything like that. He's got a sexy look despite not being a particularly good looking guy, and he puts out a sexy vibe. I assume he is also a whiz when it comes to conversation.

Anyway, another thing that got me wanting to analyze my recent work was remembering that old field:study ratio. i can't remember if it's 3 hours of field for every 1 hour of study, or if it's 4:1. In any event, I haven't hit the books in MONTHS so I was due.

After analyzing my interactions over the past several months, here is what I concluded: my frames are WEAK. Sure, I come across as a fun guy, not a creep or anything like that, who's definitely worth a date..... but I'm just not setting any strong sexual frames. The truth is, I haven't really had much of a game plan up to this point, or at least, for months I haven't been focusing on nailing any certain points in my interactions. I've been leaving it up to my natural instincts, which don't get me wrong, HAVE improved over time. But I can still tell I'm not setting any frames.

Something that's always plagued me (IMO) is that I've always had a strange tendency to take "do not give a fuck" too far. Rejections don't phase me at all anymore, in large part because I taught myself not to care. Good. But, I think I've gone too far and I 'dont even give a fuck' to take control and set frames. It's like my brain wants to be a reggae stoner like "cool! whatever, man! Peace be with you!" rather than a strong man that grabs life by the horns and DICTATES how he wants his life to play out. Does that make sense? So as a result, my frames are weak because I'm not actually trying to set frames.

With this analysis, I now have a new game plan:
This weekend I want to take off from approaching and spend my time hitting the books and actually CRAFTING an interaction game plan or playbook. I want to open a word doc and map out an interaction. The opening, the conversation, the close, etc. and actually for the first time ever put thought into what frame I'm going to hold and what to say to hold it throughout the interaction. Because I know if I leave it up to instinct, I'm not going to set a frame. I have to rewire my brain so I can train myself how to set a strong frame and hold it.

Now hopefully next weekend or the one after I can go out I can have brand new interactions that I haven't tried before. Instead of being generally playful and not very sexual, hopefully I can hit her emotions a lot stronger and get her mind thinking sexual thoughts. I'm eager to work on this. Frames have always fascinated me, but now I really want to get good with them. I want to set a great frame, think through in advance just what a person under this frame would think and say, and hopefully rewire my brain to start INTERNALIZING and thinking like a strong, sexual prize.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
245
8/20/19 Structured Game

I've done a decent job internalizing some of the previously mentioned frames, but as I've continued studying, reading, reflecting, and analyzing, I'm thinking my issue isn't a particular part of game such as I'm not great with frames, or my fashion isn't good enough.

I'm becoming more convinced that my problem is that I've never really engaged in an interaction with a clear, definitive game plan. I've just let the interaction play out and see how it goes. This isn't the right way to game. A man should take more control. Exactly like what I talked about in my last post.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is hard to explain right now, but the essence of it is this: I've never run structured game before or had an exact plan to cover a set of elements in an interaction.

Now I want to sit down, write down, and memorize all the necessary moments a successful PUA needs in an interaction and to plan out what to say in advance. After hundreds if not thousands of interactions, if I haven't thought of the right shit to say on the spot now, I never will. I need to prepare more and do my thinking before approaching girls.

After doing this, I should be able to start conversations easier, hook easier, and build sexual excitement easier - all the elements that I'm struggling with the most.

I'll report back once I have my new game plan worked up.
 
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