ElderPrice: From 30 y/o virgin to ?

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
@Will_V -

I've read your comments several times now. I can't decide if I disagree with your position, or if I agree, and we're just talking past each other.

Let me try to re-describe what I'm working on/my position, without using the term "belief."

What I think is happening:
As a child, I grew up in an environment essentially void of positivity. It's wasn't a very negative environment - just a little on the negative side. Part of the negativity I saw was jealousy in others. This idea that others had some quality to them that made them demonstrably superior to others. And that me and my circumstances lacked that quality.

This set the stage for developing a habit where I sought external validation. 'Hopefully people will like me despite not having these cool qualities.' Seeking external validation, plus not building any of my own, internally. Because my circumstances were void of positivity, I simply didn't practice things like gratitude, or thinking about the many positive traits I already possessed.

This continued through adolescence and early adulthood unbeknownst to me. Unfortunately, this led to social interactions only reinforcing this subconscious viewpoint of how the world works (referring to others having certain qualities and me not having them). Thus, strengthening the mental habit.

Fast forward to today when I finally figured out that my mind has been wired like this for all this time.

Because this viewpoint is such a strong habit, I'm not some light reading away from correcting it. I've read all the subject matter, I understand exactly what's going on.... but it's a strong habit, so it's still there. It still does its thing in social settings. It's a negativity still there pulling me down. I can mask it as best I can, but it still comes through in my vibe. It still sabotages my social interactions, especially with women.

But because of how much I've studied this issue, I know exactly what to do. I know what cue to give myself, as if I'm a therapist recommending an exercise to a patient. And because I've done the reading, and understand this issue so well, there's no more material I need to convince me not to seek external validation. Duh. I get it. I agree with that concept fully. Only one thing remains:

I have to build my own internal validation. Stated differently and more relevant to the topic at hand (women), I need to bring awareness to the many, awesome, positive traits I have, but have always been blind to.

When I said 'I need to believe in myself,' this is what I was referring to. I can see how "belief" may not be the best word to use.

Curious if this changes any of your comments. What would be your cue to someone who simply never awareness or appreciation for their positive traits? Would you agree this is different than "believing in yourself"?

Thank you as always, Will.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
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1,539
@Will_V -

I've read your comments several times now. I can't decide if I disagree with your position, or if I agree, and we're just talking past each other.

Let me try to re-describe what I'm working on/my position, without using the term "belief."

What I think is happening:
As a child, I grew up in an environment essentially void of positivity. It's wasn't a very negative environment - just a little on the negative side. Part of the negativity I saw was jealousy in others. This idea that others had some quality to them that made them demonstrably superior to others. And that me and my circumstances lacked that quality.

This set the stage for developing a habit where I sought external validation. 'Hopefully people will like me despite not having these cool qualities.' Seeking external validation, plus not building any of my own, internally. Because my circumstances were void of positivity, I simply didn't practice things like gratitude, or thinking about the many positive traits I already possessed.

This continued through adolescence and early adulthood unbeknownst to me. Unfortunately, this led to social interactions only reinforcing this subconscious viewpoint of how the world works (referring to others having certain qualities and me not having them). Thus, strengthening the mental habit.

Fast forward to today when I finally figured out that my mind has been wired like this for all this time.

Because this viewpoint is such a strong habit, I'm not some light reading away from correcting it. I've read all the subject matter, I understand exactly what's going on.... but it's a strong habit, so it's still there. It still does its thing in social settings. It's a negativity still there pulling me down. I can mask it as best I can, but it still comes through in my vibe. It still sabotages my social interactions, especially with women.

But because of how much I've studied this issue, I know exactly what to do. I know what cue to give myself, as if I'm a therapist recommending an exercise to a patient. And because I've done the reading, and understand this issue so well, there's no more material I need to convince me not to seek external validation. Duh. I get it. I agree with that concept fully. Only one thing remains:

I have to build my own internal validation. Stated differently and more relevant to the topic at hand (women), I need to bring awareness to the many, awesome, positive traits I have, but have always been blind to.

When I said 'I need to believe in myself,' this is what I was referring to. I can see how "belief" may not be the best word to use.

Curious if this changes any of your comments. What would be your cue to someone who simply never awareness or appreciation for their positive traits? Would you agree this is different than "believing in yourself"?

Thank you as always, Will.

You are very self-aware, this is a fantastic quality because it enables you to be your own teacher.

However, I think there is a crucial missing piece in how you perceive the solution to the problem. And it is very, very simple.

Your brain was 'wired' a certain way by experiences. You must wire it differently, THROUGH EXPERIENCES. You cannot do it simply with self-talk, or introspection.
...

I will try to explain with a hypothetical story.

Let's say I was someone in very bad physical shape. I'm obese, lethargic, my posture is crap, my back hurts, I can hardly get out of bed in the morning, physical alarm bells are going off left right and center. I've been in that state so long, it has become so enmeshed with my perspective of self, that I've come to believe that I was born physically messed up, genetically inferior. Everything around me reflects this 'truth' back to me.

Let's say one day the pain in my back is so bad I drag myself to the chiropractor to get something done for it. Something to at least postpone the misery of my inferior existence for a little longer. The chiropractor is a sports physician, and during his evaluation of my condition he runs a series of scans and tests to build up his understanding of what is going on.

So he does whatever a chiropractor does, pokes and prods and gives me some pills and whatnot, and then in passing he says to me 'hey I've been a sports physician for a long time, working with the best sprinters in the world. You may not believe it, but I've looked over you and I can tell you that you could be one of the fastest men on the planet, if you sorted out your problems'.

I go home and shuffle to the fridge to get my milkshake, cursing my painful back and feeling decrepit, and suddenly I remember what this guy said. It sounds like a joke, or a stupid attempt at positivity. I can't see any truth in it reflected in any experience I've had for the as long as I can remember.

Assuming that the physician was 100% correct in evaluating my potential, what would be the best way to begin moving toward realizing it? Should I reflect on it as I drink my milkshake? Should I go to India and meditate for weeks on it? Should I write a note and stick it on my mirror so I can see it in the morning and not feel too bad about myself?

No, there is only one move that actually works, and that is to go outside and start walking. Taking proximal action. It doesn't matter how I feel, I don't even need to believe anything about what the physician said, I will find out soon enough if I take the action that is in front of me to take. Over months and years I will walk faster and faster, I will start jogging, I will start running, and eventually, at some point I don't even need to think about right now, I might even sprint. And that will mark the beginning of my real journey.

One day, when I am in exceptional physical condition, my body is lean and athletic, my posture and form is impeccable, when I have trained and honed my abilities and sacrificed long hours and days toward my goal, when I am faster than 95% of people (which just means you're fit) and I start to compete and compare myself with other people who have dedicated their entire lives toward the goal of being the fastest, ONLY then will I actually start to come close to knowing if the physician was right.

Before then, it is all just words. Words that, as I stand there fat, stooped over, and ailing physically in all kinds of ways, mean absolutely nothing to me. I try to believe them, but the more I try the more I resent them, for they cannot actually do anything for me, they lie to me and make fun of reality.
...

A man does not need to believe that he is great or worthy in order to begin moving. All he needs is anger. Anger that fuels action, anger that will throw him toward his fears to discover what he can be, for better or worse.

I will mention that anger is probably not a great frame of mind to approach pickup or social interactions with, but that's because women and friends are neither the obstacle nor the goal, they are just spectators to the sport of your self development, heckling or cheering as the case may be. The true battle is fought alone, in the dark, against your limitations, in pursuit of your dreams and what you want to become before time runs out. Training and honing your will, your resilience, taking a beating from life, noting down mistakes, getting up and trying again and doing things a little bit better.

When you do that there will be a time for rest, a time to be with friends and women, and you will find that their validation means nothing to you after the brutality of the nights that you spend alone breaking down obstacles and fighting your demons.

When I was very young I read some of the Sinbad stories. And something that I found fascinating and compelling was the way that he would set off on some adventure, fighting monsters and evils of all kinds, coming close to death and escaping or winning by the skin of his teeth. And then he would eventually make his way back to his home. And the way it was written in the book was something like 'and here he was surrounded by his friends and family, and for a long time he was content and wanted for nothing'. The phrase written in the book over and over again, after every adventure, like an interlude before he got the itch to go on another one.

Social life and sexual life are an interlude between great battles, and when you have fought hard and well, you will find that you don't have to struggle to avoid looking for validation from people. Your experiences out there in the wilderness of life are the focal point from which your sexual and social life flows out, they renew your sense of self and self-worth, and everything else orbits around them, because they have gravity.

But when those experiences are not there, when the ship sailed off many times without you in it, you will turn up to the gathering unsure of who or what you are, trying to find ways to make people pay attention to you over the sailors who returned with treasure and tales and scars. It's a miserable place to be, and never works out no matter how hard you try.

But when you have all those experiences, and you know who you are, and you know how to express it well, then the bees will come for the honey without you having to chase them around.

To start having those experiences, you need only one thing: to start taking proximal action, day after day, week after week, year after year, pushing the extent of your capabilities, elevating yourself bit by bit, and in the process, the same way that your mind 'wired' itself badly without you having to do anything specific, it will 'wire' itself well, without you having to do anything specific.
 

Railer

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
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Messages
244
Women and friends are just spectators to the sport of your self development, heckling or cheering as the case may be.
Quote of the year. Made it into my collection of favorites.
 

Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
773
Social life and sexual life are an interlude between great battles, and when you have fought hard and well, you will find that you don't have to struggle to avoid looking for validation from people. Your experiences out there in the wilderness of life are the focal point from which your sexual and social life flows out, they renew your sense of self and self-worth, and everything else orbits around them, because they have gravity.

But when those experiences are not there, when the ship sailed off many times without you in it, you will turn up to the gathering unsure of who or what you are, trying to find ways to make people pay attention to you over the sailors who returned with treasure and tales and scars. It's a miserable place to be, and never works out no matter how hard you try.

More and more I'm finding this to be the case. When I have a lot going on in life, when I am making firm progress towards whatever goal it is I have at the time, when I go out to socialize, I'm naturally more at ease and people are more drawn to me. The flip side is if I am working hard and it bears no fruit, and I go out to socialize, I am a shell and I am looked at with pity. Like I have come back from a lost battle.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
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Messages
1,539
More and more I'm finding this to be the case. When I have a lot going on in life, when I am making firm progress towards whatever goal it is I have at the time, when I go out to socialize, I'm naturally more at ease and people are more drawn to me. The flip side is if I am working hard and it bears no fruit, and I go out to socialize, I am a shell and I am looked at with pity. Like I have come back from a lost battle.

It doesn't have to be this way. No one ever wins every battle, or always is happy, but that doesn't mean they you should ever let the world look at you in pity.

When you are a capable man with a winner's heart and you lose, it creates a lot of tension, both inside and out. You wonder if you are the person you thought you were, and so does everyone around you. You struggle to control your emotions and stay on an even keel. You want to destroy everything that dared to try and prove that you weren't enough.

But this tension can be very useful. It can fill you with rage, make you ruthless, and give you unlimited energy. If you don't surrender when you are in a bad spot, everyone wonders why. It's a double or nothing situation - either you'll come out having won two battles, or lose another.

Depending on your state of mind, this tension can be very alluring to women. After all, they don't care so much about who is right and who is wrong, but about how you make them feel. Some of them are drawn to you and try to give you what you need to repair yourself and go out and win, if they believe your sheer strength of will is enough.

Some of the best sex I've had was after I had a break up and was angry and missing her. There was one girl I approached a week or so after my girl of 2 years decided to try and call my bluff and moved interstate. I don't know if I'll ever fuck another girl the way I fucked this new one, I wasn't even aware of what I felt, but I just wanted to get so far inside her that I could forget about the world. Whenever she came over, she would come in and just stand there looking at me wide-eyed, waiting for me to come and take her.

Only you can choose when to accept defeat, it doesn't matter if you are cornered in life and there is no escape, there is always something you can do even if it's the last thing you do - and the gods might even appreciate your attitude enough that they conspire to make you win anyway.

And you will also find that one day, you will have a lot of people depending on you, and you will suffer a brutal defeat, and they will all look at you and wait to see what you will do next.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
@Will_V -

To your overall point that one must take action to see real change, of course there's no disagreement there.

But to your more specific point (I'm paraphrasing, correct me if I misunderstand) that things like self-talk and introspection do not constitute taking action, or adequate action, then I disagree. Maybe it's another case of semantics, but I'd absolutely consider this - what I'd call cognitive work - as a form of taking action. Ex. Someone's mind has been operating a certain way, so for the first time ever, they start working on it by sitting down, observing their thoughts, and bringing awareness to how their mind operates. They are therefore taking action to re-wire or "fix" their mind.

Talking about cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT), this is the 'cognitive' aspect of the work. If you have irrational, negative thoughts, you need to identify them and correct them. Your position to me sounds more like 'behavioral' therapy, which is certainly just as important as the other half of CBT.

No doubt one can't *just* sit around and meditate their way to solved problems. They need to take behavioral action as well, for many reasons.

Ex. Someone who's afraid to talk to girls absolutely needs to go out and talk to girls, but they also need to get their thoughts right. Modifying behavior alone will not solve every problem. If you take a guy who's afraid to talk to girls in part because he considers them cruel and bitter, then you're not going to fix him by sending him out to get rejected by 9 out of 10 girls. If his mind is messed up enough, you're just going to be reinforcing his negative beliefs.

To those who would say good things will happen thanks to the 1 out of 10 who are into him: Really? Or maybe his strong, long-term, negative beliefs are still in there and now he's just a ticking time bomb for when they'll come out again. What happens when she ghosts him after they hook up? What happens if she dumps him after a 2-year relationship? He needs to have his mind right in order to survive things like this otherwise he's just operating on faulty software which will be temporarily masked by positive external validation.

A man does not need to believe that he is great or worthy in order to begin moving.

Of course not, but we're not talking about beginning moving. We're talking about legit, strong mental health.

There's a concept in psychology: What you believe becomes reality, or a self-fulfilling prophecy.

If you believe you're a piece of shit, and wonder why any woman would want you... then you're going to find it very hard to get laid. The guys who succeed despite this mindset have other unseen factors bringing them some 'success,' but either way, they're absolutely going to fall short of their potential if they hold this belief.

If on the other hand you believe you're a stud, with many reasons why women want your seed, and you believe women love sex, love fast sex, and want to have fast sex with you, you're going to get laid. You're going to get much closer to your true potential.

In summary, I think you're absolutely right that one has to physically take action. I think performing cognitive therapy absolutely counts as taking action.

I think the wild card is just where the student in question is at in their journey. If they're a hard case newbie with lots of blatantly negative, irrational thoughts and beliefs in their head, I would start them by getting their mind to work more rationally and positively.

If they're a monk who does nothing but meditate and read, then yes, it's time to go into the field.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
8/20

I had another experience that highlighted I'm absolutely on the right track regarding the things we've discussed recently.

To keep it brief, I recently went to a nightlife venue for the first time in months that I used to frequent fairly often. I took a break because I would always feel like defeated shit every time I'd head home.

This time I did not because of my recent internal work, and I was able to watch my thoughts and emotions and see what had been happening this whole time. This isn't just with regards to this venue. This thought process signals generally how my mind was working anytime I'd approach a girl, anywhere.

My thought process looked like:

- Hey there's a girl that caught my eye. She's gorgeous. Therefore, I like her. I'll go say hi/talk to her. Hopefully she likes me back.

*Rejected. Nope, she doesn't like me.*

- Repeat as many times as reasonably possible because the internet says it's a numbers game.

*Get rejected by every girl I approach. Sure seems like nobody likes me. Then proceed to stand there, look out and see all the couples, and all the single girls smiling and flirting with other guys, leave feeling like a very unwanted piece of shit.*

For anyone reading this, the mistake here is that my mentality was backwards from the start. What it should be:

- Hey there's a girl that caught my eye (yes, looks are a reason, but there needs to be something in addition to her looks). I assume she finds me attractive and is interested. Why wouldn't she be? I have so many awesome traits. I'm a real catch. She's fortunate if I talk to her. I hope I like her.

A little exaggerated, but you see my point.

The idea is to not seek external validation. You shouldn't live in a world where you only feel good if external things fill holes in your soul. You should fill the holes yourself. Then, instead of taking from the world, you are giving. The cup runneth over.

By building internal validation, you're showing that you're truly not seeking anything from others, you exude true confidence, and this will make you more attractive to others.

Definitely making good progress!
 
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ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
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Jun 11, 2018
Messages
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9/20

Wow, it's been exactly one month?? Feels like I haven't posted here in three!

Brief update just to share that I continue to make slow, steady progress getting my head corrected. I spend hours each weekend pretty much performing CBT on myself, plus a little each day during the week.

Each week, I can literally feel the progress. It's small and moves at the same slow pace, but it's noticeable. Brain plasticity is an amazing thing!

This past weekend however, I made a correction and had a BIG change.

For about the past year or so, I've noticed basically a pain in my chest (emotional pain) that would get triggered in social situations. It pretty much has always been triggered by the sight of a hot girl. But I went into a coffee shop and it got triggered by the guy working at the counter. I thought 'What the hell? This is weird. What's going on here?'

The guy looked like a 'cool kid' from high school. Super-relaxed face, earrings, teenager-confident, talked like a bro. The kind of guy girls would like.

In short, it was then that I realized I had some messed up beliefs from childhood that involved the desire to fit in with the 'cool kids.' This whole time I thought it was specific to wanting validation from hot girls. Understandable. Definitely overlap. But slightly missing the mark.

When I made this realization, the pain went away. Dissolved on the spot.

I've since been trying to re-trigger the pain, but it hasn't worked. It appears the pain is gone for good.

I'm fascinated by the psychology here because I had no idea something like this was possible. I assumed cognitive work would only be a slow process.

But something happened and set that pain free. I feel so much better!

I still have much to continue working on to keep building my internal validation and confidence, but this is a huge weight off my shoulders. Actually, practically speaking, this was the biggest weight keeping me from getting back out there and approaching.

I look forward to going out this weekend and meeting new women, and seeing how it goes!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
9/26 A lot of inner game updates lately... how about something that involves going out, eh?

I went out at night a couple times this weekend, made some observations, and noticed some "outer game" stuff to work on.

First, I am absolutely, clearly going in the right direction with all the inner game work. Pretty much each time I go out I end up saying to myself afterward "That's the calmest, coolest, least reactive you've ever been on a night out."

Whereas all before my tendency would be to be on alert, scanning around (large attention radius), and letting everything external affect me, now I'm way more chill. I put my comfort first. I focus on staying grounded in my reality - one where I'm interested in fun, playful conversations or otherwise just enjoying myself. I'm feeling much better about myself, so I'm giving less and less fucks about how other people act or react around me.

As I've been improving here, something outer game related has REALLY stood out to me. You know push/pull? It dawned on me I've NEVER pushed.

I've been aware of push/pull for years and I never disagreed with it as a technique. I think I glossed over it because my excuse was my conservations rarely went long enough to even have an opportunity to use it so why worry about it. Also, I think for a while I thought going silent on texting was a form of pushing (not true).

In retrospect, never pushing is of course a super red flag that your self esteem is shit and that you're deeply dependent on external validation. You don't dare say anything to push the sweet deliverer of validation away!!

So moving forward, I'm going to work on adding in a lot more pushing, teasing, etc. It's congruent with my higher esteem and with my true personality. I can feel that avoiding pushing is just a habit from my former self, so it should be easy to flip with practice.

This goes hand in hand with another recent observation that I have NEVER gotten shit tests from women. My assessment here is that it's because I've never been bold or confident when speaking to them (such as by teasing them). Again, in the past I've played it safe, which is boring, and a sign you're putting the woman on a pedestal/seeking external validation.

As I go out moving forward, whether night or day approaches, my outer game focus will be on getting out of my comfort zone and dialing up the teasing and pushing. This will go hand in hand with also attempting to trigger shit tests.

I think the key here is that I'm not doing this just to try a new technique.

I'm doing it to actually be congruent with my new, stronger self. For instance, if I truly value, respect, and like myself, and if I'm very certain of myself, my thoughts and actions, I should feel free as fuck to criticize or call out stupid shit. No reason to hold it back or put a filter on it.

Speak your mind!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
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Messages
568
10/13

Developing a stronger sense of self has now shed light on other areas needing improvement. I'm better on the inside but it's still not yielding anything different externally.

I'm currently thinking of this as: It's one thing to be strong on the inside; now the task is to display that strength. This is probably an automatic process in most cases, but if you, for instance, have gone your whole life unknowingly socializing with low self esteem, you're going to have a built-in habit of showing low esteem, even if you make progress building higher self esteem.

When it comes to displaying internal strength, here is what I've observed that I'm missing, and that I've been missing my entire journey:
  • Swag
  • Acting like a guy that gets laid a lot
  • Abundance mindset
Swag is just a concept that's never come naturally to me. I recently watched a Steve Harvey video and he pointed out swag isn't just walking/strutting. You can have swag as you stand still, as you sit. Literally every moment and every thing you do can be done with a swag attitude.

Swag is a display of confidence. You're in such a great place and winning so much that you just have a natural 'I'm in control' kind of attitude. When you don't have swag, you appear at best very average - at worst like you have no confidence.

A man that gets laid a lot acts very differently from a man that doesn't. A man that doesn't will scan the room, either looking for women he wants to approach or looking if anyone is giving him IOIs. In either case, he quickly communicates to the room that he's thirsty and desperate. He can poison the well before getting even one approach in. A man that gets laid a lot doesn't exhibit this behavior. He gets all the sex he wants, so when he goes out, he does so to enjoy himself, not to seek external validation. He's very attractive because he has this winner aura, and he stands out from all the desperate men.

The abundance mindset is basically the same thing.

Throughout my journey, in retrospect, I've definitely been coming off as the guy that doesn't get laid. Whether it's cold approaching, online, social circle, or on dates, you name it. It perfectly explains my difficulty in generating high interest and why even girls I even managed to drag along in a courtship eventually quickly vanished (not to mention, in retrospect, these were definitely the types of women that had issues of their own!).

Moving forward, while I need to keep working on building my inner sense of self (self esteem, confidence, self worth, etc), I also need to spend time consciously working to display this new self, by adopting some swag and by ensuring my actions are congruent with a guy that wins in life. In other words, try to not let the habitual software of low confidence run the show.

Again, a conscious effort is needed to counter this lifetime habit. If some outward displays occur naturally as I keep strengthening the inside, then that's great. But I'm not going to wait around for it and it hasn't happened yet.

A lot of what I'm describing here is also very closely related to the concept of low momentum. So I also need to be sure I take action to build small wins and just generally make sure I enjoy more from life.

As an example, lately I've been having a hard time having fun. So something else I'm trying to work on is making sure I have some fun and don't spend all my time at work or performing therapy on myself. I'd like a new hobby or passion, but really nothing is appealing to me at the moment. Previous hobbies aren't really appealing to me at the moment either.

Anyway, these are all the new things that have really dawned on me for the first time, and that I'm going to start working on.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
10/14 Just thinking out loud and journaling my thoughts

I may finally be wrapping my ahead around my experience with cold approach.. and why things have turned out the way they have.

For starters, I think my hunch is correct that when I go out and about, I've always been a lower-ranked option for available women. This is why they never show IOIs, they show low interest even if I can drag them to giving me their number, or drag them to come out on a date.

Here's the way I look at it. Imagine you're out cold approaching in a crowded area. A bar or nightclub at night, maybe a mall or grocery store during the day, or even something like a popular coffee shop.

If there's an attractive single girl here looking for a guy, she's assessing everyone there.

I picture it as if you take every guy there, line them up, and have women secretly rank them. Or picture team captains drafting their kickball teams. However you define attractiveness, there are absolutely some guys who will "always" be top picks. There will also be guys who will "always" be bottom picks. The top pick guys are the ones who girls chase, send strong IOIs to, give their numbers to, etc. The bottom guys get nothing. No IOIs and girls walk away from them due to lack of interest. When I go out in public, I've clearly been a bottom guy.

What I've realized is this isn't looks-based. It's more so attention-grabbing-based.

Examples:
I have great muscles from hitting the gym.... but this doesn't grab attention when every other guy 'at the bar' does too.
I look great in my clothes. Every piece fits great and passes all the basic fashion tests.... but this doesn't grab attention when every other guy 'at the bar' is wearing well-fitting t-shirts, jeans, and canvas shoes.

For muscles to have a huge effect on how you do with women, you probably need to be around lots of skinny guys. Local Vegan Club Meetup anyone?
For clothing to have a huge effect on how you do with women, you probably need to step it up and dress like Darius. Layers, jackets, scarves, accessories, etc.

There's a difference in being the one of many at the bar trying to order a drink, and the one bartender making the drinks.
There's a difference between the one of many watching a band play, and being the guy in the band.

Regardless of the sexiness of these gigs, the main thing is that those guys are profoundly different than everyone else in the building. Mystery dresses different than everyone else in the building. The one 6'5 guy is different than the other 5'10 guys in the building. These things simply grab a girl's attention. They aren't inherently super attractive. But they do stand out.

When you're in public where there's a huge crowd of people all doing the same thing, what's a girl supposed to do to identify who she wants to talk to? Ignoring staff, the band, and such for sake of discussion, all a girl's got to go on are things that stand out. So of course she'll meander toward the tall guy, the guy with tattoos, maybe the guy with the most DGAF attitude there. She has no reason to consider your average or even above average self. She has nothing against you. Probably even thinks you're cute. But you're just not as exciting as these other guys.

So what's a guy like this to do?

Option one is to try and stand out in these huge crowds. You'll have to acquire a stellar wardrobe to be the best-dressed guy in the building. Or you'll have to be the most outlandish-dressed guy like Mystery. Or you'll have to learn how to play an instrument and be in the band. This can work if you have legitimate passions here. But if you're only doing this for women, it's probably not going to work out how you want.

Option two is to change the crowd. This doesn't mean actually finding a skinny guy club and surrounding yourself with people "inferior" to you. This just means to stop competing in an arena where you're always going to be ignored. Find an arena that works better for you.

I think there was a fairly recent article here about night venues. It recommended dive bars as better places to go to get laid. Yeah, it's not filled with hot women (women who ignore you anyway in the club...) but it is an environment where a strapping guy like you can be one of the most attractive guys in the building. And gorgeous women can absolutely go there, just not hundreds per night.

Or as another example, I was recently talking to a buddy and reminiscing about college. I remembered the easy opportunities I had to bed some very cute girls that I passed on (due to being a very weak, insecure person in those days).

One girl for instance lived in my dorm building and we had a class at the same time each morning. We eventually started walking together to class. We sat together in class. She started flirting with me one day... Super easy scenario because in this environment (this 1-2 hr period each day of hers going to this class), I was her #1 option.

I think this all makes a ton of sense.

I think I'm going to be a way happier person to 100% stop thinking about nights out at the bars as sarging pickup opportunities.

If a girl gives an IOI, great, otherwise, I'm going to be better off enjoying myself and spending time with friends. There's absolutely nothing that's going to change anytime soon as long as I don't want to invest in Option One above. This option would also include spending years working on every detail of my outer game. Like learning an instrument to be in a band, yeah it might work, but if you don't have full passion for it, that doesn't sound like a smart use of time to me.

I'm also going to explore how to create more of these, let's call them, "special environments" in my life.

One idea is I want to organize weekly dinners, brunches, or game nights with friends. First and foremost because I actually enjoy that way more than going to bars, and second, I will be the #1 option to any new girls my friends bring along.

I'll also have to think about what other small group kind of things I can do or find.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
10/18 Epiphany

Kind of similar to the broad idea discussed in the last post, today I think I'm zeroing in on something that's been holding me back from achieving big things.

You see, today I feel down. Bored. Stuck. I want to have fun, but nothing sounds exciting or intriguing.

In the past, I assumed this was a negative feeling, and I would draw negative conclusions from it.

Often I would construct the link that 'I feel this way because of my lack of success with women.' Or more recently, I'd consider it a sign of mental weakness and figure I'd have to keep working the CBT to fix the negative thoughts that must be going through my mind. Just a broken mindset, I'd figure.

But this time there is no negative feeling. No pain or sadness. It's just neutral.

I think what this reveals is that in general, my life is low on passion and purpose. It's not woman related.

Having a lack of passion or purpose can however contribute to women issues downstream. If being low on passion and purpose is keeping my overall confidence low, then it'll absolutely hinder my ability to seduce women. If I have no genuine passion or purpose, then this is going to be reflected socially a couple ways: 1) If I nonetheless force myself out to talk to women, then... I'm only going out to talk to women. I'm not doing something I'm genuinely interested in (ex. Going out to a bar to meet women even though I don't particularly enjoy bars). I'm not being true to myself. I'm not putting my interests first. This will greatly turn women off. 2) No passion or purpose means no way to build sincere new friendships (ex. 'Hey I'm a guy that works and runs errands. Want to be friends?' is way different than something like 'This chess club is awesome! You come every week? Great! Let's swap contact info. It was great to meet you!').

Long story short, I think I'm facing the realization that I currently have no passion or purpose in life, at least not at this moment, and I mean it more in a hobby/fun kind of sense. I also mean a passion or purpose that 100% has nothing to do with meeting women.

When I've tried to find new hobbies in the past, and even recently, I'd always be drawn to social hobbies. Why? Because they may also lead to meeting lots of women...... But this means I'm largely taking the hobby to meet women... (No good, not in this case.)

I need a passion or purpose that legitimately has ZERO motivation behind it for leading to women.

But nothing sounds appealing right now. I wish there was some mega list of passions/purpose kind of things and something can leap off the page, stand out to me, and inspire me.

Either way, this is a great epiphany. Adding passion/purpose to my life that truly has NO AGENDA for meeting women will be a big step in the right direction.
 

Beam

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jan 17, 2019
Messages
773
Is there any activity you really enjoyed doing as a kid? I find some of the things I used to enjoy before I started getting into videogames as a teen I have cycled back to again as an adult in new forms and they are my passions as an adult (for instance, playing music, solving puzzles (adult form of this is programming as a hobby)) etc. When we're young and free from inhibitions we can be drawn to things that we naturally enjoy, and it's when we get older that we perhaps take up things we don't necessarily enjoy for the outcome. This is necessary in many cases of course, but if you're looking specifically for a hobby or activity looking to childhood for inspiration is a good idea.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
Is there any activity you really enjoyed doing as a kid? I find some of the things I used to enjoy before I started getting into videogames as a teen I have cycled back to again as an adult in new forms and they are my passions as an adult (for instance, playing music, solving puzzles (adult form of this is programming as a hobby)) etc. When we're young and free from inhibitions we can be drawn to things that we naturally enjoy, and it's when we get older that we perhaps take up things we don't necessarily enjoy for the outcome. This is necessary in many cases of course, but if you're looking specifically for a hobby or activity looking to childhood for inspiration is a good idea.
Yes! This is a great idea. I definitely have some childhood hobbies I can get back into. The trick will be to make it substantial so there's a purpose to it and it soothes my soul. In other words, elevating the hobby from killing time to achieving something meaningful!
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
11/20 Not an update. Just jotting down some notes.

Things that I feel are missing in my life, that I need to do, to make me an overall better man, and will have the side effect of bringing into my life the women I actually want.

  • Ambition, passion, drive, purpose. In other words, a thing to work on. A skill. A project. Something long-term, and actionable, that can yield small wins.
  • Building my own, higher quality social circle
    • Organizing quality bro time
    • Organizing group outings, with hot girls in the group
  • A sense of belonging
    • Very rarely in my life have I ever felt like a true member of a group or tribe
  • An identity
    • Or, being a type of guy. I've never consciously been a type. Again, this is similar to the previous.
Lower on the list:
  • New hobbies
  • New skills
 

Railer

Cro-Magnon Man
Cro-Magnon Man
Joined
Oct 26, 2015
Messages
244
I've noticed basically a pain in my chest (emotional pain) that would get triggered in social situations. It pretty much has always been triggered by the sight of a hot girl.

Like a broad lance of diameter to the solar plexus. Put into words, for me it would be a paradoxical "I could, but I can't".

A quick internet search just revealed that the zone is associated with feelings of belonging and connection.

It's been quite a while since I last felt this myself and, matching your experience, I'd attribute that to higher self-worth, or, more precisely, considering myself important.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
Like a broad lance of diameter to the solar plexus. Put into words, for me it would be a paradoxical "I could, but I can't".

A quick internet search just revealed that the zone is associated with feelings of belonging and connection.

It's been quite a while since I last felt this myself and, matching your experience, I'd attribute that to higher self-worth, or, more precisely, considering myself important.
Sounds about right.
 

ElderPrice

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Jun 11, 2018
Messages
568
12/8 Update - Greater clarity and understanding

I've stopped approaching for a month or so now and I gotta say, it's been pretty fucking awesome. It feels great not continuing to knowingly waste my time. It feels great now acting CONGRUENTLY: A man that thinks highly of himself wouldn't go around desperately chasing women until he hopefully finds one that likes him back. He would instead enjoy himself and work on creating a life that BRINGS opportunities.

Greater clarity - Credit Patrice O'Neal:
I'm sure 95% of you understand this intuitively, but I needed to hear it from Patrice. Now I understand exactly how attraction works: For a girl to be attracted to you, she has to think you're better than her. Every article, post, or tip you'll ever hear about attracting women operates on this premise, whether the author knows it or not, and if women know it or not.

For a woman to be attracted to you, she has to think you're better than her.

For me, this explains all of my difficulty in finding women that are legitimately interested enough to hook, meet up with, or stick around.

Looking at myself objectively, absolutely nothing about my total appearance says "better than you." I didn't say I'm bad looking, because I'm not. I didn't say there's anything wrong with my appearance, because there isn't. You can be a well-dressed, fit, good-looking man... and still be unattractive.

The unattractiveness is simply the woman not seeing anything that SHOWS you are better than her. It's similar to the idea of not standing out. You can be doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG, and still not stand out at all.

This idea explains all my observations:
- Of course women instinctively like taller guys - A taller, bigger guy feels physically superior to her.
- Of course women instinctively like guys with tattoos - It shows a stronger, tougher character than hers.
- Of course women instinctively like guys with motorcycles - Ditto.
- Of course women instinctively like rich men - It shows a career more successful than hers.
- Of course women instinctively are drawn more to married men with kids - It shows the single woman the guy is more of a catch than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy in the band on stage - It shows he's more musically gifted, charismatic, and fearless than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy who's the leader in his group - It shows he has better leadership skills than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy with social skills - It shows, among other things, that he can socially get what he wants more than she can.

Okay so to turn this into something actionable, it goes back to what I said in my last post.

If an average guy, or hell, a below average guy, wants sex with hot women, is the right plan for him to continuously cold approach? NOPE! If nothing about his total appearance shows "better than you," then he will spin his wheels and struggle to even find girls interested enough to hook.

What he needs to do is CREATE ways or situations that SHOW attractive women that he is better than them.

Brainstorming examples:
- Stop going out alone! Go out with beautiful friends because you want to have a great time with your five star group of friends. You are NOT going out to desperately chase or impress pussy! This will make you look like a social master, a leader, and a guy that probably already gets hot pussy.
- Find a passion or purpose and take action. Example: Say you want to save the rainforest. Or want to find homes for dogs and cats. Or want to revitalize your hometown's downtown district. Anything like this will require you to get out and meet lots of people to get the projects done. Any women that you meet this way, or that you tell stories about your work to, will see you as someone with more passion, dedication, grit, social skills, and leadership than them.

These are the kinds of things I started working on. No more desperate cold approaching. For whatever reason, I'm just not the guy that in a crowded bar, club, or mall that the young hot girls want to meet, DESPITE being an objectively good-looking guy. I don't think tattoos or 'better' clothes or a cooler haircut or a motorcycle will fix it. I can do all that and I'll still be unfulfilled on the inside. Still without some vital cake ingredients to a great life. Still without any drive or purpose.
 

HammerEditor

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Nov 23, 2022
Messages
43
Location
Raleigh, NC, US
I've stopped approaching for a month or so now and I gotta say, it's been pretty fucking awesome. It feels great not continuing to knowingly waste my time. It feels great now acting CONGRUENTLY: A man that thinks highly of himself wouldn't go around desperately chasing women until he hopefully finds one that likes him back. He would instead enjoy himself and work on creating a life that BRINGS opportunities.
This sounds nice in theory, but is easier said than done. We all know the limitations of social circle game. If you're a Hollywood star, sure, women will approach you. But 99% of guys must go out, approach and make the first move to get the best quality mates.

I do agree that having an interesting life, pursuits, passions and long-term goals is very important, but I realized I could still work cold approach into my schedule. I can go out 4 times a week, 1 hour each session to do 8-10 sets. Pickup is one of the skills in my portfolio. Therefore, it feels congruent for me to game. After all, pickup is the manifestation of going after what I want.
 

Will_V

Chieftan
Staff member
tribal-elder
Joined
Jan 24, 2021
Messages
1,539
12/8 Update - Greater clarity and understanding

I've stopped approaching for a month or so now and I gotta say, it's been pretty fucking awesome. It feels great not continuing to knowingly waste my time. It feels great now acting CONGRUENTLY: A man that thinks highly of himself wouldn't go around desperately chasing women until he hopefully finds one that likes him back. He would instead enjoy himself and work on creating a life that BRINGS opportunities.

Rebalancing your life is great, but remember girls almost never make the first move.

Greater clarity - Credit Patrice O'Neal:
I'm sure 95% of you understand this intuitively, but I needed to hear it from Patrice. Now I understand exactly how attraction works: For a girl to be attracted to you, she has to think you're better than her. Every article, post, or tip you'll ever hear about attracting women operates on this premise, whether the author knows it or not, and if women know it or not.

For a woman to be attracted to you, she has to think you're better than her.

For me, this explains all of my difficulty in finding women that are legitimately interested enough to hook, meet up with, or stick around.

Looking at myself objectively, absolutely nothing about my total appearance says "better than you." I didn't say I'm bad looking, because I'm not. I didn't say there's anything wrong with my appearance, because there isn't. You can be a well-dressed, fit, good-looking man... and still be unattractive.

The unattractiveness is simply the woman not seeing anything that SHOWS you are better than her. It's similar to the idea of not standing out. You can be doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG, and still not stand out at all.

This idea explains all my observations:
- Of course women instinctively like taller guys - A taller, bigger guy feels physically superior to her.
- Of course women instinctively like guys with tattoos - It shows a stronger, tougher character than hers.
- Of course women instinctively like guys with motorcycles - Ditto.
- Of course women instinctively like rich men - It shows a career more successful than hers.
- Of course women instinctively are drawn more to married men with kids - It shows the single woman the guy is more of a catch than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy in the band on stage - It shows he's more musically gifted, charismatic, and fearless than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy who's the leader in his group - It shows he has better leadership skills than her.
- Of course women instinctively like the guy with social skills - It shows, among other things, that he can socially get what he wants more than she can.

This is a good point and it has some merit, but careful not to confuse her not seeing you as superior with you not feeling adequate.

The thing with lack of confidence is that is doesn't tell anyone what someone is not confident about. If you talk to a woman and you feel all kinds of nervousness and shame, she will interpret it as being you feeling inadequate for her, regardless of how she otherwise perceives you. It doesn't matter if it was caused by something else in your life entirely.

On the flip side, confidence also doesn't tell anyone details, and confidence during the approach will come across as confidence in your ability to get women like her.

That's why confidence and frame control is the foundation of success in pickup, because it establishes the concept of you being assertive, dominant, and successful in life, which, before you have proved anything to her about your concrete value, establishes you in her mind as a man she can look up to and follow and give compliance to.

There are many people who may be quite successful in life but are bad with women and come across as shuttered and weak, because their confidence is only a function of a particular environment or vocation in which they have some exceptional ability. If something ever toppled them from that position, or if they found themselves in an environment where it wasn't an advantage, their confidence would shatter and they would be soft and vulnerable.

One cannot rely on achievements and successes alone to get women (especially for short term relationships), but instead must cultivate an incredibly strong and resilient core frame - the kind that says 'put me in any situation and I'll come out on top, one way or the other'. The way I see it, that's the only frame that women respond to instinctively and without specific criteria, which gives you the best chance of pulling off a seduction from any position in life, with a woman at any other level of 'value'.
 
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