Naturals vs. PUAs: Is Laughter the Biggest Difference?

[Chase]

I'm actually not totally sure about this yet. My sample size is somewhat limited. However, I would be super curious to hear others' experiences.

I've started suspecting recently that the biggest difference between natural game and pick up artist game is the use of humor. This is not to say one or the other of these is better... the guy with the highest lay count I know was a self-taught day game pick up artist who used very little humor. I have known a number of both guys who were constantly funny and guys who rarely were with high notch counts and lots of beautiful girls (not just Plain Janes) under their belts.

This thread is not about which of these is better. Clearly, if my experience has shown me anything, both of these approaches can be extraordinarily successful.

But rather than continue to ruminate on this, I figured I'd put it out there and see if other guys have seen the same thing, or if they haven't.

So, natural game first.

Over the years, I have had a bunch of natural friends I rolled with. Each was very different in his look and background. There was Jorge, the overweight 5'3" Puerto Rican tire-then-car salesman. There was Nick, the buff Korean-American ex-bodybuilder (and ex-drug dealer). There was Chip, the tall blonde white German-American IT manager. And there was Jared, the black ex-Marine soldier of fortune turned cybersecurity consultant. (names all changed here to protect the guilty)

All very different looks, backgrounds, occupations, etc.

Each guy only had a few things in common with the others:

• They all got laid, a lot, and were very good with girls
• They all had clear strong presences
• They all led very strongly (when they wanted to) and had incredible social awareness
• They all joked around constantly, and cracked jokes constantly
• They all used a lot of dirty / sexual humor, on top of that

None of these guys was a "joker" type character, in that they could be serious if they needed to, and they never awkwardly defused tension or anything like that. Their humor was always well timed. It was central to their game. Chip once told me he did not like foreign girls because they did not get his humor. (though I can confirm that foreign girls still found him very attractive).

If you read the reports in seduction forums of naturals like @A2daMIR (some choice samples of his banter here), Lifeguard, Grand Master, @NarrowJ (NJ was a natural before he found GC... he racked up 50 lays in a small town very early in life, knocked up and wed a girlfriend, I think at 23, then got out of the game for I think it was 12 or 13 years. After his divorce, he found Girls Chase trying to get back to where he'd been before he stepped off the ride), you will notice these guys all constantly use debauched, sexual humor.

About half of what I'd term "my game" I learned from picking up with naturals. I also spent years in junior high and high school dedicated to refining my sense of humor. So I tend to use humor pretty heavily as well. I don't talk about it on Girls Chase much because it is hard to teach humor, but I try to insert it into articles where I can. It is unfortunately a little difficult to joke your way through a how-to.

Next, pick up artist game.

Most advanced pick up artists I have known well will use some humor in their seductions... however it is usually not a lot. Ricardus published an article on Girls Chase years ago about laughter not meaning anything in seduction. And I have even told guys not overdo it on humor lest they get stuck being the entertainer guy.

There is a tendency I've seen among guys learning PUA to use humor in non-useful ways. e.g., they will make girls laugh, but the humor they use is not sexy, and they do not use it to push things forward in the seduction. Meanwhile most naturals are using humor as a means to create high points they can then capitalize on by moving girls, getting compliance, isolating, pulling, and escalating.

PUAs focus on a range of other tools (that can be just as effective), such as emotional rapport, routines/gambits, touch and physical escalation, compliance tech, and so on. This stuff is important to me too, and a big part of my game as well -- it all factors into what I do (and teach) way more than I've seen any natural worry about this stuff.

I've seen a few pick up artists who use / incorporate lots of humor. David DeAngelo's whole method was "cocky-funny" (later "cocky comedy"). I am not sure how good a PUA he actually was though (I certainly can't say I agree with his choice in women... but to each his own). Though he certainly has some funny stuff. Sasha Day Game spent years trying to make it as a standup comedian before he switched to pick up... I've not watched his in-fields (though I have chatted with him a few times) but if I had to guess I'd guess his humor makes its way into his pickups too.

However, I have seen a tendency in many pick up guys to look down on laughter as a sort of inferior or tryhard approach to seduction. It's certainly not -- you may not have known naturals like Jorge, Nick, Chip, or Jared, but you can browse through Lifeguard's, A2daMIR's, NJ's, or Grand Master's stuff and see what kind of results they got.

More and more I am beginning to think this is a difference between naturals and pick up artists. This tendency to use humor by the boatload vs. use it only sparingly.

I don't want to draw any conclusions on incomplete data though.

So I'll ask Advanced:

• Have you known a natural whose game was NOT humor-based?
• If so, how did his game work?
• How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

Trying to figure out if I'm biased here. I've been a humor guy since I was a teenager so maybe it's just the case that I don't notice non-humorous naturals or get along better with humorous naturals so those are the ones I've ended up as friends with and the ones who jump out at me when I'm browsing seduction stuff.

Increasingly though I am thinking it is just the case that if a guy hasn't developed humor, it is just not a thing he will think about. Humor is not pushed too heavily in PUA. Instead it is mostly emotions, storytelling, rapport building, and so on. Which can also work perfectly well by itself and doesn't seem to need a lot of humor to work well. However, it is a different style.

Anyway, maybe I am an outlier or my friends are outliers.

I'm curious to hear other guys' experiences with this.

Chase

 

[Velasco]

None of these guys was a "joker" type character, in that they could be serious if they needed to, and they never awkwardly defused tension or anything like that. Their humor was always well timed. It was central to their game. Chip once told me he did not like foreign girls because they did not get his humor. (though I can confirm that foreign girls still found him very attractive).

I have seen a tendency in many pick up guys to look down on laughter as a sort of inferior or tryhard approach to seduction. It's certainly not -- you may not have known naturals like Jorge, Nick, Chip, or Jared, but you can browse through Lifeguard's, A2daMIR's, NJ's, or Grand Master's stuff and see what kind of results they got.

Exactly.

We've been saying...

Your Personality is Just a Path of Least Resistance

During discussions centered on frame control or other persuasive techs I often see replies along the lines of "That doesn't mesh with my personality." But what is personality to a seducer really? Let's consider this carefully. . . and break it down into smaller chunks. Okay so. . . for a lot of...

www.skilledseducer.com

Socializing - Is intelligence really sexy ? or this is some brainwashing BS ?

Hahaha! Okay okay. :) At least don't remind me of guys who can't accept that women can be smarter than men. If I am not smarter than her , then I am dumb lol

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Chase]

Oh interesting.

Just to be clear -- I did not see these posts previously!

So I'm not commenting on anything anyone said in those threads about anything in my OP.

But it is curious to see there's already some discussion going on this same wavelength of late.

Always seems like guys in the same space are thinking about similar issues at similar times, even if they don't realize it.

 

[Skills]

Bacchus, you beat me to it. The reason most girls seem giggling is cause they are already attracted. So yeah the premise of natural game different than pua due to humor is incorrect, here is a good example this dude in minute 16.47...

 

[Velasco]

the premise of natural game different than pua due to humor is incorrect,

From your video on the anti-PUA community, you talked about how naturals differ from PUAs

15:00 - 16:45

On how the anti-PUA guys (originally naturals/screeners (before the mentality ill/incel guys showed up) that did not resonate with the material in the seduction community) were funny and charismatic. While the seduction community guys were sensitive, boring, and didn't have personality.

The reason most girls seem giggling is cause they are already attracted

Such giggling often preceded compliance.

I know what you mean. But what Bacchus is talking about is what Chase mentioned above on how naturals intuitively understood the concept of spike her BT (either by making her laugh or a funny comeback to her shit test) (to temporarily to create high point) then ask for compliance (move her, kiss her, lead out the venue).

While some things are almost universally funny. . . lots humor styles are relatively niche.

There is no such thing as something that is universally funny (although the segment I highlighted below comes pretty close). We all have different styles of comedy we find funny due to our IQ and upbringing. This means losing out on pretty girls that do not find our sense of humor funny (but sometimes they will laugh or stick around, even if they do not think (nor understand) what you say is funny because they think your hot like in Skills' example), which will usually just leave the girls who find you sexually attractive+funny.

3:51 - 4:40 (I also like the thumbnail, showing the interviewer holding her abdomen with her both hands, because she likes his sense of humor, while Enrique just sits there like "...")

 

[Skills]

Lol at velasco, I totally agree and I was a natural and humor is one of my strengths. But chase is asking if the Main difference is humor and is not, even though I am bias since my style is sexual humor, is not the difference as you can see in the video sample and I know many naturals that are not funny


P.s. the anti puas didn't get laid you misunderstood what I said

 

[Skills]

Velasco Enrique Iglesias was actually funny, if you look at the video is self deprecation humor from high value, small penis. I totally joke around when I women send me pics how they woke up optimus prime, and when they say if that is how I call it, I go into how it has different names such as mobie dick, empire state building pre 9/11, titanic but one of my exes called it the 2 incher when she was mad, I also role play with strangers when I pretend to be a couple on how she left me for a black guy named Tyrone cause I have 2 inches. My point is Enrique in that video was funny playing stupid that is a form of humor, specifically small dick jokes

 

[Velasco]

My point is Enrique in that video was funny playing stupid that is a form of humor, specifically small dick jokes

Something I also like to do when I know what I'm about to say to the girl is going to be really funny, is after I say it, I like to grab the girl by the arms to try to relax them and not have them make a scene (even though I know the joke I'm gonna say, is going to cause a scene lol) like "no no no no. relax relax relax" while I'm smiling or I will shove them away or squeeze their arm (when I can see that they got my inside joke). I don't know why I do it, so don't ask. But its a really fun experience

Now that I'm thinking about it more. I think it's because people have this natural tendency to want to do things when you tell them not to do them. So by me telling her to calm down and stop laughing, it makes her want to do the opposite and keep laughing. Which causes her to realize, "wow I'm having such a good time with this guy".

 

[Velasco]

If you read my post again, you'll see I said those naturals, did not use humor to seduce.

Such giggling often preceded compliance.

If not humor, then what caused the giggling before demanding compliance? I said they used humor/spike BT because that's what Chase observed the naturals in his example used before their compliance demands

Meanwhile most naturals are using humor as a means to create high points they can then capitalize on by moving girls, getting compliance, isolating, pulling, and escalating.

There is a real difference between spontaneous, tension-breaking giggles. Which happens sometimes without prompting. . . as you game certain girls who are very attracted to you. And making those same girls laugh with banter. Or anything you say that is intentionally humorous.

I see. So your saying what caused the giggles wasn't humor, but that they were gaming girls that very attracted to them from the get go like in Skills' example.

Also note that in my last post here, I described. . . a trans-continental upbringing. This enabled adaptation to varying humor-styles unique to each country. So it was quite easy for me to see what aspects of humor were niche, and very location dependent. . . and which ones had more wiggle room.

For me it more depends on the girl rather than a particular humor style not working in certain countries. I didn't have the same upbringing as you, but I've been to enough countries, to know that there are many girls that respond well to self amusing/depreciating/childish humor (another factor in this, which is my fault because I only speak English and decent Spanish, is that while I was in European and Latin American countries, I was gaming girls who spoke some english ("you speak english?") and therefore responded well to this westernized sense of humor if we can call it that).

Speak for yourself.

I am

 

[Teevster]

Naturals are just average Joe's with a few extra lays under their belts. I have never met anyone who could beat an mPUA or even come close. Hence, in my dictionary, the world "natural" is a totally useless word.

You rarely hear top notch PUA's talk about naturals. Pablo uses the term to describe men who are "naturally" decent with women. As in, not totally useless.

This may not contribute much to the thread, I am just saying that I actually do not fully grasp the concept of a natural.

 

[Skills]

Naturals are just average Joe's with a few extra lays under their belts. I have never met anyone who could beat an mPUA or even come close. Hence, in my dictionary, the world "natural" is a totally useless word.

You rarely hear top notch PUA's talk about naturals. Pablo uses the term to describe men who are "naturally" decent with women. As in, not totally useless.

This may not contribute much to the thread, I am just saying that I actually do not fully grasp the concept of a natural.

As I said in another post and there may be geographical differences, the issue is you see comparisons from mpuas to average naturals and average naturals to mpuas. So is never a fair comparison. Also I am sure you are talking cold approach context.

 

[Teevster]

As I said in another post and there may be geographical differences, the issue is you see comparisons from mpuas to average naturals and average naturals to mpuas. So is never a fair comparison. Also I am sure you are talking cold approach context.

Yeah you are probably right.

My standards may be too high. I also have mostly only gone out with top PUAs these last years. I may be biased from that. None of them use humours really. Well it happens a joke is cracked.... but it is usually not as a mean to an end, but just something that happens.

 

[West_Indian_Archie]

So I'll ask Advanced:

• Have you known a natural whose game was NOT humor-based?
• If so, how did his game work?
• How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

Chase

1) Have you known a natural whose game was NOT humor-based?

Yes, most of them.

3) How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

Probably 40%, because that's about 40% of my personality. I'm forever analyzing.

2) If so, how did his game work?

In light of #3, that I'm forever analyzing i'll describe naturals I've met over the years.

The Producer - He made beats for rappers and singers. His job was selling himself to get people into the studio and record. So I was interested in how he did that. Black dude 5'7", not fat but not built. Good BMI. Groomed well enough. I'm not a great judge of how attractive men can be to women, but he didn't look like Idris Elba or anything like that. He's not an obvious pretty boy (feminine looks). Nor is there that "rugged" charm (masculine looks). He just looks like a dude you'd see at the barbershop.

Within this crew, he was a known pussy hound. 5 kids, 3 mothers, and always on the make. True sex addict. He'd sweet talk or pay for it, didn't matter, had to get his dick wet.

Me and the squad took a trip. During an afternoon meal, he snuck off to go chat up the hostess. 5 at best. Looking for ol boy, I catch him spitting his rap to the chick.

It's literally the most saccharine vomit inducing night guy stuff I've ever heard. It's literally everything you're not supposed to do when it comes to a good seduction. The chick is eating it up though. She's really really digging it. He had at least 10 years on her, so maybe there is some arbitrage there, but I'm watching her face and she's lighting up and giving him the anime eyes.

He had something the next guy had.

The Doberman - Tall skinny brother, favoring a Doberman Pinscher. He had neither the body nor the face. Not in my crew or squad, but occasionally we would do some business. He was annoying to do business with. (this is key) Both of us were heavy in the club scene. He would routinely bring some of the hottest chicks I've ever met to venues that we would both go to. He was the epitome of "Where you find her at?" (the implication being she was rare and his looks didn't warrant the match).

In any night club scene, even if there are 50 clubs, the people that go out all the time quasi-know each other. We ended up being Eskimo Brothers with this Emo Chick. She told me that he was really into feet and footwear. My burning question was, what did you see in him?

"He had an answer for everything I said, a comeback to whatever I came up with."

He was annoying in business and that got him good deals. He was antagonizing and prickly with women, and that's literally how he got them into bed.

So I'm starting to put together a theory.

The Bulldog aka the only time i've been AMOG'd - It's only in the last year that I got my Asian flags. I've been doing this for more than 15 years, actively doing night life for 10, now running social circle and occasional night life as my career has moved on.

The Bull Dog was somewhat funny. He was built and did some modeling. He had a lot going for him in terms of tools to work with. But a lot of guys have that in the night life. They built "it", but no females ever came.

I had basically speared the "big fish" at some point, a chick that he always wanted. My dime piece was mine for maybe 3 years before it fell apart. But after the break up, I'm back on the make. And I run into him. At the venue, doing my thing, meet a nice Asian chick. At this point, my game wasn't solid, but this was only the second Asian chick that i'd really interacted with and got some traction with. I was running the typical funny/jokey, high energy, let's go dance, have you been to such and such diner...blah blah blah. She's eating it up.

We're literally about to leave and dude AMOGs me. For the life of me, I can't remember what he said or did, but she looked at me and look at him and looked at me - and then somehow I left.

What the hell just happened?

Fucked with me for weeks. Again, in another Eskimo brothers situation, I hook up with some other chick that banged him. She said he was cocky and persistent. He also had a hidden artistic side. Given his modeling, that should have been assumed, but believe me this dude was a bro. (on top of being a brother I mean)

The hidden artistic side was a huge contrast to the rest of his image, and that drew the girl in for the bang.

None of these guys were funny, but all of them, on a unconscious level, were homing in on the girl's unmet/unconscious needs.

With the Producer - this cute girl isn't getting the sweet attention that she deserves.
With the Doberman - this suicide chick isn't getting the sort of dominance and antagonism that she responds to
With the Bulldog - this chick needed to "discover" something from him - he basically tapped into her "nosy" gene.

I know their basic MO is to look good and go out and then be persistent. But what hooks these girls is something that's not in the basic manual. All of these dudes are in someway kind of messed up in ways that aren't necessarily obvious - but it's a lot like the James Wood character in Casino - sometimes those flaws will kick in a girl's nurturing mode - and when she nurtures she invests.

I'm still friends with the Bulldog and the Producer - and they're still living their lives. The Doberman? I imagine he's a wholesale liquor salesman or something.

That said, the lesson I have taken from all these different naturals, all the various PUA schools of thought, and more broadly all the persuasion/social science stuff - is that tapping into unconscious needs, stirring up emotions - is the key to getting girls/people to do things that they otherwise might pass up. That's sort of a "duh" moment, but to a large extent I don't think pickup/seduction really focuses on that sort of thing anymore.

WIA

 

[Skills]

Yeah you are probably right.

My standards may be too high. I also have mostly only gone out with top PUAs these last years. I may be biased from that. None of them use humours really. Well it happens a joke is cracked.... but it is usually not as a mean to an end, but just something that happens.

Yes I totally. Matches my experience when I am on the field I use very little humor during the seduction, I think is a joke or 2 but most of the times is not jokes cause it kills tension.... so let's say open, a cute fun comment or witty then normal, if they ask who are you here with, oh I am with my best friend, where is he, then I grab my balls normal, then your Macdonalds sex joke, normal. Is not the impression of fun, fun dancing monkey is very tiny about a small percentage, even the grandmaster original is weak like Russell brand does cause too direct for my taste.

Watch the video posted by velasco excellent sample of the ratios of funny sexual indirect and serious.

 

[Velasco]

Matches my experience when I am on the field I use very little humor during the seduction, I think is a joke or 2 but most of the times is not jokes cause it kills tension.... so let's say open, a cute fun comment or witty then normal, if they ask who are you here with, oh I am with my best friend, where is he, then I grab my balls normal, then your Macdonalds sex joke, normal. Is not the impression of fun, fun dancing monkey is very tiny about a small percentage, even the grandmaster original is weak like Russell brand does cause too direct for my taste

Yeah as I was explaining to Merchant's Kin in this thread, and by viewing my my old Lay Reports, you'll see that 90% of my humor is used in the first three steps (combined with my cocky sexual vibe) (in the open -> vibe -> hook segment). (she already knows I'm sexually attractive and I've got a sense of humor she likes....why I gotta keep reminding her that I'm funny?). Once she's hooked, the only times, I'll use humor is for comebacks to shit tests (not ALL comebacks my brain is going "what's funny thing to say here?" Sometimes her shit tests are excellent opportunities to set some really great frames (like contrasting myself away from typical guys (who she mistakenly thought I was) she deals with) and for when I'm on the way home in the cab ("occupying her mind").

 

[Mr.Rob]

Sasha Day Game spent years trying to make it as a standup comedian before he switched to pick up... I've not watched his in-fields (though I have chatted with him a few times) but if I had to guess I'd guess his humor makes its way into his pickups too.

I can attest to this. Sasha does incorporate a LOT of humor and fun in general. Not in the sexiest way and errs a bit on the entertainer side but he makes it work well for him. My guess was always that he was more of a guy that relied on numbers than targeted approaching but that's just my speculation.

I actually hung out with Sasha on a few occaisons and he is absolutely a funny guy to hang with. The first time I met him was at a mastermind group and he whipped his dick out on the table and called everyone a faggot haha.

• How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

For being a self taught PUA humor and sexual humor was always a mid size role in my game. I learned a lot of my humor from RSDTyler, RSDJeffy, and a little bit from SashaDaygame (more cocky funny + sexual humor as well). This played a big part in initially taking my game to the next level back in 2014 (year 2 of my seduction career) where I learned how to find the line between using it for reactions vs results.

For me humor was used to make myself laugh and get into a better more free state out in the field and that way when I met a girl that hooked I was just enjoying myself and having a good time and could suck her into my world of just having a good time. I'd take things more serious once I had her invested and complying.

In 2015 I started learning more sexual humor and making my game more natural... I still used the humor I learned from PUA's but on dates or once back home with a girl switched to more humor you might see a sexy actor use in movies (like Cary Grant or Tom Cruise).

I found humor to be very effective early on in a pickup to break her out of autopilot and get her feeling good emotions with me.

Depending on my mood or the day I may use more serious or humor game but I always incorporated humor. So maybe I'm an outlier PUA wise but it was a big part from me.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Skills]

I can attest to this. Sasha does incorporate a LOT of humor and fun in general. Not in the sexiest way and errs a bit on the entertainer side but he makes it work well for him. My guess was always that he was more of a guy that relied on numbers than targeted approaching but that's just my speculation.

I actually hung out with Sasha on a few occaisons and he is absolutely a funny guy to hang with. The first time I met him was at a mastermind group and he whipped his dick out on the table and called everyone a faggot haha.



For being a self taught PUA humor and sexual humor was always a mid size role in my game. I learned a lot of my humor from RSDTyler, RSDJeffy, and a little bit from SashaDaygame (more cocky funny + sexual humor as well). This played a big part in initially taking my game to the next level back in 2014 (year 2 of my seduction career) where I learned how to find the line between using it for reactions vs results.

For me humor was used to make myself laugh and get into a better more free state out in the field and that way when I met a girl that hooked I was just enjoying myself and having a good time and could suck her into my world of just having a good time. I'd take things more serious once I had her invested and complying.

In 2015 I started learning more sexual humor and making my game more natural... I still used the humor I learned from PUA's but on dates or once back home with a girl switched to more humor you might see a sexy actor use in movies (like Cary Grant or Tom Cruise).

I found humor to be very effective early on in a pickup to break her out of autopilot and get her feeling good emotions with me.

Depending on my mood or the day I may use more serious or humor game but I always incorporated humor. So maybe I'm an outlier PUA wise but it was a big part from me.

Interesting discussion.

Sacha is cringe, the humor that works is sexual humor, mixed with cocky funny but to ridiculous level, and self deprecating from high value which causes sexy humble effect, fake angry or any exaggerated fake emotion works too

 

[Hue]

I guess it depends on the type of "natural".

I know plenty of different types who get laid alot, but now that I've seen past the superficial levels I think only a few of them actually "get women".

The guys who simply get laid a lot, use plenty of humor. It's usually looks + humor + physique + leading / confidence. They make moves on girls when most guys wouldn't, they can handle a rejection or two, and their timing as to when to pull / when to go for the kiss is pretty damn good.


The only guy I know who "gets women", gets laid all the time, and doesn't use humor, I'm beginning to think actually isn't a natural, but this is a very recent observation. Once at a bar he was telling this guy all about women, then drunkedly grabbed me and goes "this man knows! talk to him too!" then went back to talking to his friend. So maybe he picked up that I study the same stuff, but didn't want to overtly tell me about it. Then, I could have SWORN he was doing day game a few weeks ago.

Touchy thing to just ask a man though... I'll have to think of a way to fish for information.

His style seems closest to Bacchus' from what I've read / listened to over podcast. Slow, deliberate movements. Doesn't hand out eye contact often. A natural aura of charm and charisma about him. Frankly, a seductive vibe. Only guy I know who has it down so well... making me think it's "unnatural".


I think generally speaking though, Chase's initial post is surely a fair observation. Guys that intuitively understand all this stuff and act on it effectively are even rarer than one's who simply have high lay counts / fuck a lot of hot girls. Most guys, even if they know what things work with women, will still never fully understand women either

 

[Chase]

I like how this thread has developed! A lot of very interesting remarks and anecdotes.

From @Bacchus:

They did not use humor to seduce girls though. While cracking jokes with guys was very common. The female giggle fits I saw, came as these guys flirted, or demanded compliance. Using warm but almost condescending tones. Very cocky statements. Telling girls to sit on their laps. Etc.

Such giggling often preceded compliance. Certain girls would behave dramatically first. Others would mirror this communication style.

That's how it went down in Africa

I have seen African guys gaming in this same way. A lot of strong invitations, "Come over here, and have a seat!" -- he is kind of smiling, you can tell he's being flirty with her, but it's not humorous. Though yes, she's still giggling (because she knows it's flirtation).

Typically they are this way with men they're being friendly with as well: they'll come up, put their arm around your shoulders, tell you, "Come on, my friend, let's go to the bar and get a drink!" and sort of drag/push you along with them. Smiling as they do it, speaking as a friendly authority figure almost.

Very different tone to how they run their game, it is true.

Because back in the days when I still used a decent amount of humor. I saw that without the cushion provided by tight social frame, these emotional spikes could suddenly shift her perception of me. . . towards court jester or entertainer realms. I would also run head first. . . into female state control. What's more is I noticed using high points to change venues, wasn't as consistently effective, if these girls were currently on-the-fence instead of warm.

Yes, that's certainly true. Get her laughing too hard at the wrong time and she calms down and, "Well, it's been GREAT talking to you... haha... now I have to go." Easy for humor to backfire if you're going too hard with it and the timing's imperfect.


From @Skills:

Bacchus, you beat me to it. The reason most girls seem giggling is cause they are already attracted. So yeah the premise of natural game different than pua due to humor is incorrect, here is a good example this dude in minute 16.47...

Yes, there is, "She is attracted to you, so anything you say with even a hint of a smile will set her off giggling."

There is also, "You are actually using humor as an emotional driver." Humor here being a tool you use to create emotions, the same way we use rapport building, rapport breaks, screening, qualifying, deep dives, sex talk/stories, cold reads, NLP, personality routines, other routines/gambits, etc.

Humor obviously works on people who are not attracted to you. Otherwise you wouldn't laugh at Chris Rock's jokes unless you wanted to bang him. However, I'd bet you 10 bucks there are nevertheless a bunch of women in the audience at any given Chris Rock show who arrived thinking, "That guy is gangly and unattractive," and walked out an hour later thinking, "I'd let that man shag my brains out!"

While a lot of laughter is attributable to the girl already liking you (just like a lot of how a girl responds to your screens, qualifications, cold reads, routines, gambits, stories, deep dives, sex talks, NLP, compliance tests... anything you do, really... is attributable to her already liking you), humor still seems to be a tool, that can be used, like these other things, and it does affect the seduction.


From @Teevster

Naturals are just average Joe's with a few extra lays under their belts. I have never met anyone who could beat an mPUA or even come close. Hence, in my dictionary, the world "natural" is a totally useless word.

Yeah, might be a geographical thing, as @Skills said.

I have seen a lot of guys claim as 'naturals' guys they know who were 'average Joes with a few extra lays under their belts', sure.

I can tell you my natural buddy Chip was at around 220 or 230 lays when he wifed a girl up (I think about age 28). He was a cold approach natural, we would go out to bars and pick girls up then take them back to his apartment where he had a half bar. Nick and Jared were also cold approach naturals, with similar success rates (Nick was closer to 300 lays IIRC; the best PUA I have known well and picked up with somewhat often got out of the game at around 400).

Lifeguard from mASF claimed 50 lays in a 3-month period while working at the beach. Zan from mASF claimed his best year was an 80-lay year. @Hector Papi Castillo worked with a natural at a bar who claimed 1,000 lifetime lays IIRC... Hector was very impressed with the guy's game.

There are good naturals out there, with more than a small number of extra lays under their belts.

I've only ever had one mPUA I was able to go out with even semi-regularly to use as a base of comparison (I don't want to compare based on guys I've gone out with a handful of times, or read about online) -- that said, if we are talking winging, I would rather wing with an mPUA than with a natural. If we're talking a head-to-head between an mPUA and a highly skilled/experienced natural (say, my natural buddy Chip, vs. my retired mPUA pal), I'd expect that to play out the exact same way as with an mPUA vs. another mPUA... it is largely going to be down to the girl and her tastes in men, and which of those guys appeals to her more.

Ideally you are not going to have a head-to-head, and everyone can find his own girl, however


From @West_Indian_Archie

1) Have you known a natural whose game was NOT humor-based?

Yes, most of them.

3) How big a part of your own game is based around humor?

Probably 40%, because that's about 40% of my personality. I'm forever analyzing.

2) If so, how did his game work?

In light of #3, that I'm forever analyzing i'll describe naturals I've met over the years.

The Producer - He made beats for rappers and singers. His job was selling himself to get people into the studio and record. So I was interested in how he did that. Black dude 5'7", not fat but not built. Good BMI. Groomed well enough. I'm not a great judge of how attractive men can be to women, but he didn't look like Idris Elba or anything like that. He's not an obvious pretty boy (feminine looks). Nor is there that "rugged" charm (masculine looks). He just looks like a dude you'd see at the barbershop.

Within this crew, he was a known pussy hound. 5 kids, 3 mothers, and always on the make. True sex addict. He'd sweet talk or pay for it, didn't matter, had to get his dick wet.

Me and the squad took a trip. During an afternoon meal, he snuck off to go chat up the hostess. 5 at best. Looking for ol boy, I catch him spitting his rap to the chick.

It's literally the most saccharine vomit inducing night guy stuff I've ever heard. It's literally everything you're not supposed to do when it comes to a good seduction. The chick is eating it up though. She's really really digging it. He had at least 10 years on her, so maybe there is some arbitrage there, but I'm watching her face and she's lighting up and giving him the anime eyes.

He had something the next guy had.

The Doberman - Tall skinny brother, favoring a Doberman Pinscher. He had neither the body nor the face. Not in my crew or squad, but occasionally we would do some business. He was annoying to do business with. (this is key) Both of us were heavy in the club scene. He would routinely bring some of the hottest chicks I've ever met to venues that we would both go to. He was the epitome of "Where you find her at?" (the implication being she was rare and his looks didn't warrant the match).

In any night club scene, even if there are 50 clubs, the people that go out all the time quasi-know each other. We ended up being Eskimo Brothers with this Emo Chick. She told me that he was really into feet and footwear. My burning question was, what did you see in him?

"He had an answer for everything I said, a comeback to whatever I came up with."

He was annoying in business and that got him good deals. He was antagonizing and prickly with women, and that's literally how he got them into bed.

So I'm starting to put together a theory.

The Bulldog aka the only time i've been AMOG'd - It's only in the last year that I got my Asian flags. I've been doing this for more than 15 years, actively doing night life for 10, now running social circle and occasional night life as my career has moved on.

The Bull Dog was somewhat funny. He was built and did some modeling. He had a lot going for him in terms of tools to work with. But a lot of guys have that in the night life. They built "it", but no females ever came.

I had basically speared the "big fish" at some point, a chick that he always wanted. My dime piece was mine for maybe 3 years before it fell apart. But after the break up, I'm back on the make. And I run into him. At the venue, doing my thing, meet a nice Asian chick. At this point, my game wasn't solid, but this was only the second Asian chick that i'd really interacted with and got some traction with. I was running the typical funny/jokey, high energy, let's go dance, have you been to such and such diner...blah blah blah. She's eating it up.

We're literally about to leave and dude AMOGs me. For the life of me, I can't remember what he said or did, but she looked at me and look at him and looked at me - and then somehow I left.

What the hell just happened?

Fucked with me for weeks. Again, in another Eskimo brothers situation, I hook up with some other chick that banged him. She said he was cocky and persistent. He also had a hidden artistic side. Given his modeling, that should have been assumed, but believe me this dude was a bro. (on top of being a brother I mean)

The hidden artistic side was a huge contrast to the rest of his image, and that drew the girl in for the bang.

None of these guys were funny, but all of them, on a unconscious level, were homing in on the girl's unmet/unconscious needs.

With the Producer - this cute girl isn't getting the sweet attention that she deserves.
With the Doberman - this suicide chick isn't getting the sort of dominance and antagonism that she responds to
With the Bulldog - this chick needed to "discover" something from him - he basically tapped into her "nosy" gene.

I know their basic MO is to look good and go out and then be persistent. But what hooks these girls is something that's not in the basic manual. All of these dudes are in someway kind of messed up in ways that aren't necessarily obvious - but it's a lot like the James Wood character in Casino - sometimes those flaws will kick in a girl's nurturing mode - and when she nurtures she invests.

I'm still friends with the Bulldog and the Producer - and they're still living their lives. The Doberman? I imagine he's a wholesale liquor salesman or something.

That said, the lesson I have taken from all these different naturals, all the various PUA schools of thought, and more broadly all the persuasion/social science stuff - is that tapping into unconscious needs, stirring up emotions - is the key to getting girls/people to do things that they otherwise might pass up. That's sort of a "duh" moment, but to a large extent I don't think pickup/seduction really focuses on that sort of thing anymore.

WIA

Those are some fascinating experiences, WIA.

I like the meditations on these guys meeting that unmet need.

That is something to mull over a bit. Because you can look at any guy's type of game and, if he is good, he is meeting some type of unmet need in the women he meets.

It's an interesting prism to put things through.


From @Hue

I guess it depends on the type of "natural".

I know plenty of different types who get laid alot, but now that I've seen past the superficial levels I think only a few of them actually "get women".

The guys who simply get laid a lot, use plenty of humor. It's usually looks + humor + physique + leading / confidence. They make moves on girls when most guys wouldn't, they can handle a rejection or two, and their timing as to when to pull / when to go for the kiss is pretty damn good.


The only guy I know who "gets women", gets laid all the time, and doesn't use humor, I'm beginning to think actually isn't a natural, but this is a very recent observation. Once at a bar he was telling this guy all about women, then drunkedly grabbed me and goes "this man knows! talk to him too!" then went back to talking to his friend. So maybe he picked up that I study the same stuff, but didn't want to overtly tell me about it. Then, I could have SWORN he was doing day game a few weeks ago.

Touchy thing to just ask a man though... I'll have to think of a way to fish for information.

His style seems closest to Bacchus' from what I've read / listened to over podcast. Slow, deliberate movements. Doesn't hand out eye contact often. A natural aura of charm and charisma about him. Frankly, a seductive vibe. Only guy I know who has it down so well... making me think it's "unnatural".


I think generally speaking though, Chase's initial post is surely a fair observation. Guys that intuitively understand all this stuff and act on it effectively are even rarer than one's who simply have high lay counts / fuck a lot of hot girls. Most guys, even if they know what things work with women, will still never fully understand women either

Well that's interesting.

I wonder if there is a geographical relationship with the style of game local naturals develop to pursue local girls.

My natural buddies -- all American, picking up American girls, all using humor. Various American naturals from seduction forums, using humor. Velasco, based in NYC, using humor. Hue, American, in America, his natural buddies using humor.

Bacchus's African natural buddies, in Africa, picking up African girls, use commanding/flirtatious dominance, not humor. Move them to Europe, gaming European girls, they switch from commanding dominance to deadpan humor. Grand Master, in Europe, using humor.

West Indian Archie in... the West Indies? Natural buddies use sweetness, dominance, or nosiness, all wrapped up in persistence -- but not humor.

I don't know if these patterns held up if we looked at / talked to more guys who knew other actually prolific / higher end naturals in different geographies.

But it's interesting the... potential adaptations going on here.


One thing we can conclude: use of humor is not by any means a universal 'biggest difference' between naturals and PUAs.

It seems like it might be, locally, at least in America, a big difference. Maybe. Again, more data points required.

It certainly is not universally, though. West Indian Archie is in a reverse situation -- he, the PUA, uses more humor than his natural friends do. In Africa they are apparently not using it at all (at least not the guys Bacchus knew).

Thanks for contributing, fellas.

Chase

 

[Richard]

Early GC basically taught me that it was okay to be a guy that enjoys women and I consider a lot of my game to be more "natural" than "learned." As a result, I use sexual humor a ton and I think sexual humor is the easiest avenue to get girls interested because it accomplishes so much:

1) Creates a sense of comfort and unguarded-ness
2) Injects elements of sexuality into the mix

The majority of "naturals" I know don't really understand women; they might be able to sleep with women but they don't understand women so in the long run most of the naturals I know have still ended up in the same position as "average Joes;" domesticated by a chick, just the chick is hotter than "average." PUAs/Naturals who have read PUA understand women though and I think that gives them a definitive edge in the long run. Better relationship management, better drama management, better at dealing with female game, etc.

So, really, the biggest difference I see is the levels to which naturals vs. PUAs actually understand women opposed to just being able to bed women

-Richard