PSA: Sugar dating is not pickup, it is prostitution

[Chase]

In the articles you posted, it said the guys who are getting laid the most either have good online game or are willing to pay sugar babies. So you should aim for either one of those.

I have been seeing a lot more of this stuff on here lately.

Guys talking about 'sugar babies' (i.e., prostitution) as an 'alternative' to picking up women.

And I guess it is an alternative. Sort of like how synthol is an alternative to lifting.


(that is not muscle. That guy has injected his arms with oil)

I will tell you I have a couple of times had women I had partially undressed ask me to pay them money. One time (I was already fingering the girl) I told her no and nearly shagged her anyway but we got interrupted by someone pounding on the door. Another time (I had the girl's shirt off) I just immediately lost interest and went totally limp. Once I countered a girl saying I needed to pay by insisting that I be the one who get paid. She actually said she would pay me for sex then asked why I wouldn't pay her for sex, but when I asked where my money was she did not, in fact, pay me. Needless to say, having called her bluff, and annoyed at having my time wasted and not having been paid by her, I gave her the boot.

I personally have an enormously difficult time understanding what the value is of pussy you have to pay for. I have had my monger friends explain to me all the joys of paid sex, and while I can sort of understand it rationally, at an emotional level it is not really something I am able to really grasp.

I don't know about you, but a woman asking me for money in exchange for me giving her my cock, orgasms, good vibes, valuable life insights, and seed feels exactly like someone I have just handed a Christmas present to asking me to pay him money for him to receive my gift. You just sort of feel stunned at the audacity of it, and feel weird that he would even think he could ask you for that, then lose all interest in doing something nice for him.

We had an article on Girls Chase recently where sugar dating was being framed as 'another kind of dating' (this was not stated; however, it constituted roughly half of an article about 'trends in dating', which sort of implies it is one of the major 'trends' in dating the author sees emerging), which I have had pointed out to me and that slipped past the editing team. I asked our editor B.T. to keep an eye out for stuff like this in the future and either edit it or send it back to the author (B.T. agreed when he saw the article it set off some flags in his head, but he let it go forward; I've asked him to be more cautious about that in the future). I also added a little editor note to that article clarifying that no, paying for hookers is not the same as picking up women.

I know there are some corners of the Internet where guys do these sugar daddy hookers. Just as there are corners of the Internet where guys indulge in whore mongering, and corners of the Internet where guys are incels who jack off to porn, and corners of the Internet where guys are furries.

Whatever floats your boat.

But that's not what this place is about.

This is a skill-building environment.

If you are paying for sex, you have announced your skill-building period is almost certainly over.

I have never seen a guy switch from game to paid sex, then at some point say, "All right, that's enough of that! Time for me to get back to building my game skills so I can lay women I don't have to pay for!"

Getting into paid sex is like checking into the Hotel California. You can't never leave.

I have seen guys try it a few times, or very lightly dabble, then come back out of it. But really only if the guy tries it, realizes it is not for him, and gets back out.

Once a guy is in it, his pickup days are over.

This forum is not a prostitution forum.

It is not about mongering, or sugar dating, or gogos, or brothels, or any of that.

You can go do those things in your own time if you want to. I have friends who do. I don't judge them for that (well I mean... I might judge them for it a little bit. But I try not to judge them too hard. They are after all only human).

But I do not want to see guys discussing it on here as if it's an alternative to game.

It really is not.

(and yes, I have heard all the arguments of how "you have to use game with sugar babies too" otherwise it will take 3 dates to lay them or you'll pay 50% more or whatever it is. Just because you use game with someone does not mean game is the primary way you got her. Harvey Weinstein shagged a ton of actresses but the man, as evidenced in the audio clip of him pleading with some girl to come to his hotel room, has atrocious game. I'm sure the narrative in his head is "These women all want me because I am a desirable producer with outstanding game" but whatever game he might possess plays a minor role in getting any of these women into his bed, same way if you are meeting women off a sugar baby app, well, you are not using your awesome game to meet them in real life, or even off some non-paid dating app like Bumble... you are using an app where women seek rich men who will pay them for sex. Maybe you're being clever if you're exploiting a hole in the market and tricking these women who think you're richer than you are or whatever -- I sort of did that with a wealthy people social network I was on in the late 2000-naughts, despite not being rich, albeit none of the women I slept with I paid -- but it is still not the same as game and it is not something we want to heavily promote or normalize on this site)

Just be careful about this.

Paying women for sex is not game.

You may think it is game because you used game with them.

But my monger friends use game with the women they pick up in the gogos. The same arguments I have heard from sugar daddies I have heard from whore mongers, about how if you don't have good game the 10s won't sleep with you and just run off for the Chads. Then you have to settle for the whores who are 7s. Or you have to be in the whore town during the low season, when your odds to get with the 8s and maybe the 9s if you are really on your A-game go up.

Just because you use game with a girl does not mean it is the same as normal non-paid dating.

It is not a substitute for it.

It is also not something I want to push or normalize or even talk about on the site.

If you want to talk about it, there are more forums devoted to either of whore mongering or sugar daddy game on the Internet than there are pickup sites. We are one of the last real pickup forums in existence.

We don't need guys on here trying to convert us into "Sugar Daddy Dating Forum #4417."

There are dozens of those. If you want to talk about that stuff, please go find one of those forums, and leave it off this site.

Chase

 

[trashKENNUT]

I find this phenomenon interesting.

The mixing of principles/2 different games/mixing principles and process, both principle and process are each from different game.
I'm happy that you brought it up, Chase. You writing here, indicating that paying for sex is not the same as game. I know this is post is unrelated,

there seems to be a phenomenon where people can't recognize, or discern 2 different games, rules per se. It's weird because i see this everywhere.

I hope you don't mind me. Here's worldwide examples.

- the recent Will vs Jada scandal (where you smoke everyone)
- Capitalism vs Socialism
- Women empowerment (Freedom of western women and freedom of middle east women)
- "Moderate" muslims
- "Moderate" christians
- The Necessary Hypocrisy of Curbing of Freedom at a fundamental versus Freedom At Process Level (Freedom of movement, Freedom of speech, etc)

this is just the top of my head.

On a sidenote, i am able to discern all this independently. It's also the secret power that all psychopath, narcissistic man, uses. :X

z@c+

 

[Troy]

I have been seeing a lot more of this stuff on here lately.

Guys talking about 'sugar babies' (i.e., prostitution) as an 'alternative' to picking up women.

And I guess it is an alternative. Sort of like how synthol is an alternative to lifting.

View attachment 51
(that is not muscle. That guy has injected his arms with oil)

I will tell you I have a couple of times had women I had partially undressed ask me to pay them money. One time (I was already fingering the girl) I told her no and nearly shagged her anyway but we got interrupted by someone pounding on the door. Another time (I had the girl's shirt off) I just immediately lost interest and went totally limp. Once I countered a girl saying I needed to pay by insisting that I be the one who get paid. She actually said she would pay me for sex then asked why I wouldn't pay her for sex, but when I asked where my money was she did not, in fact, pay me. Needless to say, having called her bluff, and annoyed at having my time wasted and not having been paid by her, I gave her the boot.

I personally have an enormously difficult time understanding what the value is of pussy you have to pay for. I have had my monger friends explain to me all the joys of paid sex, and while I can sort of understand it rationally, at an emotional level it is not really something I am able to really grasp.

I don't know about you, but a woman asking me for money in exchange for me giving her my cock, orgasms, good vibes, valuable life insights, and seed feels exactly like someone I have just handed a Christmas present to asking me to pay him money for him to receive my gift. You just sort of feel stunned at the audacity of it, and feel weird that he would even think he could ask you for that, then lose all interest in doing something nice for him.

We had an article on Girls Chase recently where sugar dating was being framed as 'another kind of dating' (this was not stated; however, it constituted roughly half of an article about 'trends in dating', which sort of implies it is one of the major 'trends' in dating the author sees emerging), which I have had pointed out to me and that slipped past the editing team. I asked our editor B.T. to keep an eye out for stuff like this in the future and either edit it or send it back to the author (B.T. agreed when he saw the article it set off some flags in his head, but he let it go forward; I've asked him to be more cautious about that in the future). I also added a little editor note to that article clarifying that no, paying for hookers is not the same as picking up women.

I know there are some corners of the Internet where guys do these sugar daddy hookers. Just as there are corners of the Internet where guys indulge in whore mongering, and corners of the Internet where guys are incels who jack off to porn, and corners of the Internet where guys are furries.

Whatever floats your boat.

But that's not what this place is about.

This is a skill-building environment.

If you are paying for sex, you have announced your skill-building period is almost certainly over.

I have never seen a guy switch from game to paid sex, then at some point say, "All right, that's enough of that! Time for me to get back to building my game skills so I can lay women I don't have to pay for!"

Getting into paid sex is like checking into the Hotel California. You can't never leave.

I have seen guys try it a few times, or very lightly dabble, then come back out of it. But really only if the guy tries it, realizes it is not for him, and gets back out.

Once a guy is in it, his pickup days are over.

This forum is not a prostitution forum.

It is not about mongering, or sugar dating, or gogos, or brothels, or any of that.

You can go do those things in your own time if you want to. I have friends who do. I don't judge them for that (well I mean... I might judge them for it a little bit. But I try not to judge them too hard. They are after all only human).

But I do not want to see guys discussing it on here as if it's an alternative to game.

It really is not.

(and yes, I have heard all the arguments of how "you have to use game with sugar babies too" otherwise it will take 3 dates to lay them or you'll pay 50% more or whatever it is. Just because you use game with someone does not mean game is the primary way you got her. Harvey Weinstein shagged a ton of actresses but the man, as evidenced in the audio clip of him pleading with some girl to come to his hotel room, has atrocious game. I'm sure the narrative in his head is "These women all want me because I am a desirable producer with outstanding game" but whatever game he might possess plays a minor role in getting any of these women into his bed, same way if you are meeting women off a sugar baby app, well, you are not using your awesome game to meet them in real life, or even off some non-paid dating app like Bumble... you are using an app where women seek rich men who will pay them for sex. Maybe you're being clever if you're exploiting a hole in the market and tricking these women who think you're richer than you are or whatever -- I sort of did that with a wealthy people social network I was on in the late 2000-naughts, despite not being rich, albeit none of the women I slept with I paid -- but it is still not the same as game and it is not something we want to heavily promote or normalize on this site)

Just be careful about this.

Paying women for sex is not game.

You may think it is game because you used game with them.

But my monger friends use game with the women they pick up in the gogos. The same arguments I have heard from sugar daddies I have heard from whore mongers, about how if you don't have good game the 10s won't sleep with you and just run off for the Chads. Then you have to settle for the whores who are 7s. Or you have to be in the whore town during the low season, when your odds to get with the 8s and maybe the 9s if you are really on your A-game go up.

Just because you use game with a girl does not mean it is the same as normal non-paid dating.

It is not a substitute for it.

It is also not something I want to push or normalize or even talk about on the site.

If you want to talk about it, there are more forums devoted to either of whore mongering or sugar daddy game on the Internet than there are pickup sites. We are one of the last real pickup forums in existence.

We don't need guys on here trying to convert us into "Sugar Daddy Dating Forum #4417."

There are dozens of those. If you want to talk about that stuff, please go find one of those forums, and leave it off this site.

Chase

The post I made about wealth building and girls, is when Slick gave me that advice. I only hope that when I did write my posts, it did not give any impression that I am looking to create wealth in order to get sex. Does anyone think my post aluded to sugar daddy dating?

Aside from that, yes Chase I agree with you. Paying for sex is just prostitution. If I were to be rich, I would want to focus on truly building the skills to get girls. If I had a car, I would show up to the date early and part and make zero comments about how much money I have and I would focus on flirting and seducing the girls without mentioning my finances.

In my opinion, focusing on creating wealth should be only for creating a fun and healthy lifestyle. Not for attracting women with $$$ signs. I would also steer clear of potential gold diggers as I improve my finances, I have zero interest in women who want me for my money.

I think its really sad that some guys think sugar daddy "dating" is even dating. They literally have little skills to attract women. That's just beta male behavior.

I agree Girls Chase should remain 100% a skill building website

 

[Velasco]

I don't think Grand Pooba framed paying chicks for sex as an alternative to pickup. He simply highlighted that as one of the three groups of people (those paying for sex) he noticed getting laid the most during the pandemic (the other two being: those with fbs/gfs, and those who are good at online dating). However, the main thing I wanted to talk about, was this part:

Maybe you're being clever if you're exploiting a hole in the market and tricking these women who think you're richer than you are or whatever -- I sort of did that with a wealthy people social network I was on in the late 2000-naughts, despite not being rich, albeit none of the women I slept with I paid -- but it is still not the same as game

Here you say this isn't the same as game, but another Tribe Elder here does consider this bait-and-switch strategy, game:

Guys i want to clarify the prostitution stuff.... If you are getting girls from seeking arrangement for example who are 8-10, and you manage to bait and switch and then seduce them and fuck them with no money exchange other than the date costs that is game.

Of course GP, the only poster I've seen banging girls from Seeking Arrangement without paying for sex, himself also holds the same view:

In my view, that’s good game - girls go on Seeking Arrangement hoping to meet a guy who will help them with expenses, and here I am trying to get her into a sexual state having her forget about any money and simply selling her on sex.

But from reading his reports, they seem more like normal hookups (the girls matched with him cause he was their type, then he got em on a date and proceeded to deep dive+sex talk them before taking them home) rather than "tricking" a girl into sleeping with him without paying:

I also learned as she was talking about this that she really likes brown and Indian men herself – it turned out that her ex was Pakistani, and the two men she had the threesome with were Pakistani and Indian. In the end that explained a lot for how this transpired – not only was she already highly attracted to me and I was already her type

LR - Seeking Slutty Nymphomaniac

After one adventure in South Korea with Seeking Arrangement, I came back to NYC in early December and again found myself just far too busy with work to focus on cold approach – four work trips planned to four different cities through the month, one girl visiting for ten days and staying with me...

www.skilledseducer.com

I had a huge foreigner bonus here, and also learned that one of her ex boyfriends was Arab from Dubai. Though I am not Arab by any means, I look Middle Eastern enough, and so she was probably attracted to me from the get go.

LR - Seeking Date in South Korea

This is an unusual report from me, and I really don’t consider it to be “high game” by any means, but thought it would be useful to share anyway as I like to document all of my LRs. In fact, I’d say overall in context this is a very low skill report, which I’ll explain at the end. Since I’ve...

www.skilledseducer.com

 

[Chase]

@Troy,

I didn't get that impression from your post, no.

Just saw guys sort of absorbing this mentality of, "Hey, should we be on sugar dating apps, maybe?" and I'd like to nip that in the bud before I end up in a heavy clean-up situation on here.


@Velasco,

I don't think Grand Pooba framed paying chicks for sex as an alternative to pickup. He simply highlighted that as one of the three groups of people (those paying for sex) he noticed getting laid the most during the pandemic (the other two being: those with fbs/gfs, and those who are good at online dating).

I understand that. However, there is an implied equivalency embedded in there by putting the two things side by side.

Imagine I wrote an article that said, "No one is getting laid right now... except the guys who go to Thai gogos. The guys who are flying out to Thailand to get laid in gogos are enjoying an absolute BONANZA right now. They are fucking new girls every single day, sometimes 2-3 girls a day. If you do not have the money to fly to Thailand and enjoy the gogos however, let's look at some other options you have."

Imagine that thousands of young guys who are trying to find their paths and are struggling and not sure what to do are reading this.

I can easily say, "I never said that gogos were dating! Just that this is one way that guys are getting laid -- and in fact, the guys who get laid the MOST are at the gogos!"

It is very clear by putting side-by-side with the other stuff that I view those two things as very closely related (to be clear: I don't. I'm just using this as an example here). Simply by its inclusion in the content we are saying these are the same or similar things. "Wanna get laid? Well, you COULD do pickup... or you could just BUY women! Maybe you don't have the money to spend on that? No problem, there are other, if harder, ways!"

While it is interesting to examine the sugar baby/daddy phenomenon as a cultural event, we really do not want to mislead guys into thinking, "Oh, well, GC said this is in the same category as regular dating, so I guess it might be okay."

Here you say this isn't the same as game, but another Tribe Elder here does consider this bait-and-switch strategy, game:

That's my mistake. I should not have compared "hanging out in a group where people get the wrong idea about you and sleeping with women without paying" to "hanging out on an app where people get the wrong idea about you and sleeping with women while also paying."

I think it's still fair to consider it 'game' if you shag a girl off a prostitution app without paying her.

I think it's a dangerous line to walk, because a lot of guys that try that are going to end up meeting girls they like who won't agree to unpaid sex, and once they start paying for it and discover it is seamless and easy they are not going to go back to trying to get free sex out of these girls.

But yes, that'd still be game in my view.

Probably I should've given that original post one more read-through before I hit "Post."

Of course GP, the only poster I've seen banging girls from Seeking Arrangement without paying for sex, himself also holds the same view:

But from reading his reports, they seem more like normal hookups (the girls matched with him cause he was their type, then he got em on a date and proceeded to deep dive+sex talk them before taking them home) rather than "tricking" a girl into sleeping with him without paying:

That's not something I am debating here.

I did not say "Grand Pooba is paying for sex."

I was talking about a specific article where Grand Pooba talks about guys who are paying for sex being among the "guys who are doing the best right now."

That is what guys are reading, quoting, and forming opinions from.

As for the exploiting/tricking mention -- when a girl signs up for Seeking Arrangement, she is expecting a sort of thing. She is expecting that the men on here are wealthy, probably older, and that this will be a good way for her to find an older guy who is willing to spend money on her for sex and company.

When she sees a guy who is actually young, attractive, and her type, and then she goes out with him and he is charming and she decides to go to bed with him without charging him, he pulled off an exploit. Because that same girl is probably also on Tinder, or used to be, and odds are good if she saw this same guy she slept with off the sugar baby app he'd have drowned in her inbox among all the other attractive young guys she matched with. By going into an environment where she was looking for "not him" and being one of the few guys of his type who were there, he exploited a hole in the market.

It is a clever thing to do, as I said. Not saying there's anything wrong with it. But it is also sort of tricky / exploiting that hole.

By the same coin, if I started talking about my "elite wealthy people game" that hinged on getting into an invite-only rich people's network and then setting yourself up as the party host and using that as an excuse to meet a bunch of hot girls who were invited to the network by rich guys, then banging those girls, I would feel a little sheepish talking about "here is my game."

It is interesting stuff. But it is a sort of tangent to what we usually think of as 'game' (i.e., going out to meet a woman in the wild, finding her, approaching her, seducing her, and bedding her).

Chase

 

[aliparpar]

Thanks @Chase for this post clarifying your instance on the topic. You are absolutely right. I know you have also written extensively on it here

Should You Have Sex with Prostitutes?

To pay for sex or not? What are the benefits to your game (and life)... And what are the risks? A few years back, on my article about pornography addiction, a reader named John Jones asked about prostitution: “Chase, Great article. I do have a major problem. Every few months I get a prostitute...

www.girlschase.com

However, the post above makes the subject more black and white for anyone who's dabbling on it.

Adding from my experience - I have tried paid sex. When I was on a vacation in Budapest. I remember hitting bars and clubs one after another and seeing all these guys getting with girls and myself not being able to pick anyone up. It was frustrating. Then as I was calling it a night and making my way home, I passed by a gorgeous girl, she made eye contact and immediately jumped in front of me asking me if I want to be with her that night.
At the time it was too tempting to say no, so I slept with her for money. Twice (the next day too).

And I regretted it.

Why?

Here's what happens when you pay for sex. This is what I went through myself:

1. On both occasions she didn't sleep with me passionately and it was evident she just wants to make me cum fast so she can grab the money - so you don't often experience the full experience of intimacy.
2. Although I was getting sex, my self-esteem took a huge dive shortly after. I started questioning myself, my game and felt like giving up. I felt like I was not enough (on a sexual value) for women to want to have sex with me. So I started getting more and more demotivated to put myself out there. I stopped working on seduction entirely for half a year.
3. It is truly as addictive as drugs. Once you experience it once, you can get easier tempted to have it again. I had it two days in a row on vacation after getting sex on the first - since I wasn't motivated to pickup much after the first try. Then when I came back home, I was getting tempted to seek local outlets for getting sex. I'm glad I pushed through and didn't. You think you're just trying it on a vacation, but if you get into it back home, it'll be impossible to stop.
4. You lose lots of money. Oftentimes you think you're paying only like 50-100 dollars or something but halfway through she may ask for more before she gives you any full experience.
5. Your perception of yourself will be skewed dramatically and you start seeing yourself less and less. If you could get free sex, why do you have to pay for it? As Chase mentioned, the girls themselves get shitloads of value by being with you - your insights, the pleasure of riding you, your affection and care, etc. - so it's not just you who benefits.

Just from the above experiences, I definitely recommend staying away from it even though you may be riding a long dry spell due to Covid. Don't watch porn. Don't pay for sex. Don't masturbate (a lot). Try to channel your sexual energy instead to cold approaching (even if its fruitless for days on) or on your mission - whatever that is.

Ultimately you can binge on GC's stuff and build a dating skills curriculum for yourself to work on during/after the pandemic.

 

[Protean]

It really boils down to whether you want sex or skills.

If you are learning game just to get sex, if you would leave the seduction community if your local pimp gave you unlimited free access to all his girls, stop gaming and just buy hookers. You’ll get what you want without going through the trials that learning game puts you through.

But if you want the skills to captivate women, have them drawn to you for sex, see them beg you to make them your girlfriend or wife, prostitution won’t be something you care too much for.

Personally, I couldn’t do it. I just imagine looking this woman in the eye as I handover my cash knowing that it was my money, not me, that got her to spread her legs. No thanks.

 

[Chase]

It really boils down to whether you want sex or skills.

If you are learning game just to get sex, if you would leave the seduction community if your local pimp gave you unlimited free access to all his girls, stop gaming and just buy hookers. You’ll get what you want without going through the trials that learning game puts you through.

Yes, this is the right perspective.

The real driver is, "What do you need the sex for?"

If it is purely for a biological function -- just to ejaculate into a vagina, any vagina, so long as the face/body meets your requirements -- then it doesn't matter how you get it. Dating app, nightclub, street approach, prostitution, you are comfortable with any means to get it, and you will drift toward whatever means is easiest.

If it is for some other reason -- hobby, achievement, sport (for a lot of guys, seduction is essentially a kind of sport), or securing a girlfriend or wife of a caliber you cannot meet through, say, a prostitution app -- you will tend to be a lot more selective about the process of getting the girl.

I think, to a certain extent, we are seeing a divergence in the seduction community, as these new avenues to meet women open up:

1. Guys who focus primarily on cold approach and do not want to do too much/anything digital
2. Guys who specialize in dating apps and don't want to do cold approach much or at all
3. Guys who are increasingly turning to prostitution

If we look at a lot of the disagreements in the seduction community of late, we have seen:

• Guys (like @naturalmikey and @Indian Race Troll (IRT) on here) who almost exclusively do dating apps, arguing that these have supplanted cold approach
  
  
• Guys who are in it purely for the physiological enjoyment of penis-in-vagina increasingly lurching toward simply paying for it, as paying for it is truly the easiest way to get it, and as it becomes increasingly viable in many places. i.e., it used to be if you were an American who wanted to pay for sex, you had to fly to Thailand, the Philippines, or Colombia for that, or take a trip to Mexico, or you had to risk an encounter with an escort off an escort site for $150-$300, or one on Craig's List who offered her services for "300 roses." Now you can just go on a sugar daddy app and book a session with a girl for $150-$300, same exact rate as any normal escorting service, but it is no longer being policed, there aren't cops on there trapping people, and there is a big push to normalize this as "just another way for people to date while also helping women out", so the stigma is gone, along with the illegality
  
  
• Guys who are cold approachers and view apps as a subpar way of getting women and prostitution as not even "counting" at all, taking issue with both these kinds of guys in their communities pushing app game or hookers

Before, all three of these types of guys would've done cold approach pickup, purely out of necessity.

There were no smart phone dating apps prior to 2010 or 2011, and escorts were still a fringe thing. A lot of guys who probably would've paid for sex in the past got funneled into seduction by lack of opportunities to pay for it safely, legally, in a socially acceptable way. But that is increasingly not the case -- now they can do it, it is accepted, not a big deal, and it is very available to them. It is also the case that most of these sugar babies are doing GFE prostitution ('girlfriend experience', where the prostitute builds a connection with her johns, has a lot of good conversations with them, and treats them like her regular boyfriends rather than just her clients -- this is a part of the service), which is more appealing to a lot of guys than the standard clinical no-connection sex @aliparpar mentions having with the Budapest prostitute above.

Dating apps where you meet girls you aren't paying for sex with are still a subset of game and most guys are going to use them at least a bit. A lot of guys dabble in apps when they're new before they start cold approach, because cold approach is scary and apps are not. Even most of the very good guys on here use them at least occasionally. It's only when guys get dogmatic, or flood the community with too much app stuff (like @naturalmikey was doing... among other things), that it really becomes an issue.

Meanwhile the guys who are slouching into prostitution are basically just in the process of unplugging from seduction entirely without maybe being aware of it yet. At some point they will end up posting on sugar daddy or monger forums and realizing they have a lot more in common with the worldviews of the men on those site than they do with the worldviews of men on a seduction site. I saw this happen sometimes back in the mASF days, but obviously there was a lot more of a barrier to guys transitioning from PUA to prostitution due the lower availability of it in a lot of places back then.

Ultimately I think it is a good thing for guys who want to cold approach.

It's a bit sad to lose guys who might've been good seducers had they been a part of the community, contributing their own unique insights and angles. And sexually open-minded women who would've been at the bar fishing for free drinks in exchange for sex are now more likely to be on a sugar dating app fishing for a few hundred bucks in exchange for sex.

But there are many fewer men willing to cold approach than there are women who'd like to meet a guy and get swept off their feet. Funneling a chunk of those men off to prostitution apps means even less competition for non-working girls for the average man.

The extreme version of this is Thailand/Philippines, where a lot of the women are prostitutes, and most guys who are horny just go to them and pay their money, whereas if you are a guy with game who does not want to bang prostitutes, all the other women there, since they are not really getting approached much at all (most of the horny guys are going to the hookers) it is very, very straightforward to hook up with them.

(that said, it is definitely annoying how hard it is to find a nightlife venue in some of these places that is not flooded with hookers. And all the men you talk to are guys who are shagging hookers, so they will give you recommendations for other places they say are "great" or "can't be missed", except when you get there you discover these places, too, are hooker dens. That is one major advantage of a society with a low prostitution presence... not having to run into hookers left, right, and center. Also, pickup is a distinctly Western activity. Guys in places with cheap, available hookers just use the hookers, they don't learn seduction. Then they marry girls they meet in their day-to-day lives. You will not usually find many skilled seducers in such societies, and if you try to talk to the men there about seduction they do not understand and keep smiling and wanting to give you recommendations for good places to get a hooker)

Anyway, fun to think about how things are changing and where they might go.

Chase

 

[reeax]

For those who are interested, Black Dragon gives his point of view on this topic here:

Is Sugar Daddy Game Prostitution? - Alpha Male 2.0

Enable Dark Mode Enable Light Mode Get Free Email Updates! Join us for FREE to get instant email updates! I will be referring often to points I already made in those articles, and I will ignore any comments that are questions or objections already answered in those articles, so please take the...

blackdragonblog.com

 

[Mr.Rob]

What is the true value of pussy?

My boot camp instructor answered this question by telling a story of how one of his past students knew about some shady prostitution ring in the middle east (the guy was Persian I believe).

Anyway he was saying that there was mass buying and selling of girls for sex workers and the hottest most beautiful girls were sold at a premium for what amounted to $19 US dollars.

$19 US dollars is the value of the finest vagina money can buy.

Any time you spend more than $19 your getting taken for a ride.

Don't be a freaking SIMP

I should add that this is the cost to own the pussy... not just have sex 1 time.

 

[ljrozz69]

What is the true value of pussy?

My boot camp instructor answered this question by telling a story of how one of his past students knew about some shady prostitution ring in the middle east (the guy was Persian I believe).

Anyway he was saying that there was mass buying and selling of girls for sex workers and the hottest most beautiful girls were sold at a premium for what amounted to $19 US dollars.

$19 US dollars is the value of the finest vagina money can buy.

Any time you spend more than $19 your getting taken for a ride.

Don't be a freaking SIMP

I should add that this is the cost to own the pussy... not just have sex 1 time.

WTF!

You're talking about slavery (Human trafficking). Then you put a price on women's worth as sexual slaves and conclude that if you're paying more you're a simp...

What is that, an apology for sexual slavery?

You fail to grasp that prostitution is a paid service... it has never been about owning a human being, making this post of yours pointless.

I hope I am not the only one feeling disgusted by that post.

 

[Train]

WTF!

You're talking about slavery (Human trafficking). Then you put a price on women's worth as sexual slaves and conclude that if you're paying more you're a simp...

What is that, an apology for sexual slavery?

You fail to grasp that prostitution is a paid service... it has never been about owning a human being, making this post of yours pointless.

I hope I am not the only one feeling disgusted by that post.

I don't think he's condoning it. To me, it's a tongue-in-cheek take on not putting girls on a pedestal.

 

[Mr.Rob]

@Klimax
I'm sorry that offended you, that was not my intention of the post. I agree, sex trafficking is a travesty and vile way to make a living.

The point of the story was just to illustrate that once you know the true dollar value of a beautiful woman it really puts it into perspective the folly of putting vagina on a pedestal.

Ask the average guy on the street what the value of the vagina of a beautiful woman is and he'll tell you "$50,000", "$100,000!", "No! $1,000,000!"

Well if we're going to technically answer that question then it seems like $19 is the answer (assuming my bootcamp instructor was getting accurate intel).

I personally don't use prostitutes and don't advise other guys to either. If every man on earth took my advice then sex trafficking would cease to exist overnight.

 

[Tank]

If it is purely for a biological function -- just to ejaculate into a vagina, any vagina, so long as the face/body meets your requirements -- then it doesn't matter how you get it. Dating app, nightclub, street approach, prostitution, you are comfortable with any means to get it, and you will drift toward whatever means is easiest.

If it is for some other reason -- hobby, achievement, sport (for a lot of guys, seduction is essentially a kind of sport), or securing a girlfriend or wife of a caliber you cannot meet through, say, a prostitution app -- you will tend to be a lot more selective about the process of getting the girl.

(I know I'm trying not to post these days but saw this and have some things I feel like I need to share)

Now I don't care about pickup as achievement or hobby and I simply don't have the fundamentals to get a gf quality woman and no one has any clue how to fix that so I've given up on that... But I still disagree that there is only a dichotomy of masturbating in a hole versus pride/hobby whatever and that's it.

Sex is not masturbating in a hole, there is a thing of sexual rapport, sexual connection sexual intimacy, that intensifies the overall subjective experience of the sex itself significantly. And these things are only possible when the girl genuinely is attracted to you as opposed to does it for another reason.

So you can be in it for the Sex and not the feeling of being a pimp or love of the game or whatever and still hate paying for sex.

So even though I intend to only do short term casual flings, if I had millions of dollars I'd still spend it onboatloads of pickup coaching and steroids and become a strip club owner for status based attraction, rather than hookers. I think hookers are only a viable option when it's essentially all over in terms of attraction from 7s when one is 55-60 or something.


Going down the rabbit hole:
1) there's also loads of quasi-prostitution out there, namely provider game, as in a girl is not attracted to the guy but consciously wants to settle down and tolerates an unnappealing man because he is sweet and makes a good income. Loads of men think this is ok while I think this is really just the same thing as prostitution.
2) one thing I am still not sure about: alpha male studios even talks about this "get yourself a nice car a rolex, sell the bitch the dream, fuck her 3 times and drop her by the side of the road", does that count? The Dan blitzerian lifestyle is the same sort of thing. I am not sure. Yeah it's infinitely more respectable than being a beta provider bf, and much better than prostitution, but is she sometimes attracted by the bling or is it pure she wants a fancy lifestyle and you outmanipulate her, essentially?

 

[Skills]

Going down the rabbit hole:
1) there's also loads of quasi-prostitution out there, namely provider game, as in a girl is not attracted to the guy but consciously wants to settle down and tolerates an unnappealing man because he is sweet and makes a good income. Loads of men think this is ok while I think this is really just the same thing as prostitution.
2) one thing I am still not sure about: alpha male studios even talks about this "get yourself a nice car a rolex, sell the bitch the dream, fuck her 3 times and drop her by the side of the road", does that count? The Dan blitzerian lifestyle is the same sort of thing. I am not sure. Yeah it's infinitely more respectable than being a beta provider bf, and much better than prostitution, but is she sometimes attracted by the bling or is it pure she wants a fancy lifestyle and you outmanipulate her, essentially?

Yeah this is the only problem i have with this point, cause it comes to a grey area.... in scenarios 1 and 2, the investment pendulum could switch, and the girl double down in her investment....

Let me give you an example, I owned 2 mortgage companies one in south beach and one in brickel in Miami, when i met my ex, and she was not much into me, when the market housing crashed, i moved in with her, from Miami to west palm.... I had her paying the bills and she was attracted, invested and doubling down on the hope... Similar happened with my hungarian gf....

I witness a girl telling primo "i don't like him he is 2 short".... couple of months later doing 3 somes and swingclubs with him..

3rd scenario, i had 2 escorts and couple of strippers, in all scenarios they felt for me after my investment, just like any regular civilian girl, i flipped them... and never spent a cent after...

 

[POB]

I'll give my 2 cents since I did some experiments on the SD/SB world for two months....Personally I like to test and experiment with everything related to men/women relationships, and since everybody was talking about this stuff during this pandemic craziness, I though I could give it a fair shot. (side note: I have an OLTR at the moment...plus I was very upfront about it at my SD profile...so keep that in mind).

By the way, I'm gonna talk about my OWN EXPERIENCE, without any bias, because I was truly trying to understand what all the fuss was about (also because during lockdown my tinder account got banned, so I needed a new app to get fresh leads while everything was closed).

First let's be clear about one very important thing:
SD game IS NOT SEDUCTION...and never will be...
.....SD game IS NOT PROSTITUTION either (although you'll sure find a lot of escorts on those apps)

That said, you can sure use game on chicks you meet there....but only to do one thing and one thing only:
- to decrease or even eliminate the price you have to pay for sex. That's it.

The most important difference between an Escort and a Sugar Baby is that the escort is there 100% for your money. Your dick could be short, bended to the side, full of hair and smell bad...she still gonna suck it and put it inside her holes while calling you "hot" and "awesome".

The SB, on the other hand, wants your money...but also wants to be "seduced". I put seduction on quotes here because she wants to be seduced by the idea of a lifestyle she wants - whatever that lifestyle may be. No, she won't be with you if she does not feel slighted attracted to who you are (or the projection of that personality). She also needs to feel physically attracted to you, at least a little bit. Most sugar babies will never be with you if they find you gross or rude (believe me, I talked to a lot of them and asked those questions directly).

IS IT POSSIBLE TO FUCK THEM WITHOUT PAYING?
Yes and no. There are four kinds of chicks on those apps
1) disguised escorts;
2) hardcore provider hunters looking for a rich sucker;
3) sugar babies;
4) curious chicks who are not SBs;

Chicks from 1 and 2 will be very upfront about money and are the most expensive...you cannot negotiate the price with them.
Chicks from 3 will probably develop a nice conversation and will be open to negotiate the value down to a certain point.
Chicks from 4 you can sure seduce and fuck without paying anything.

ARE THEY HOT? IS SEX WITH THEM SATISFYING?
I've fucked 4 chicks from the same SB app:
- one was a 21yo disguised escort who was able to fool me badly (she was damn good pretending to be a regular chick, but asked me to pay her only after we had sex, which is not what escorts usually do here)...we became sort of "friends" after it, but as soon as she found out money would never be involved again, she deleted me;
- one was a 19yo who only cost me an uber ride and dinner at my place...we fucked at the first meet...ONS, she ghosted me since that day;
- one was a 20yo who I fucked on the second date at my place...she asked for money after sex (we had an agreement, so I paid her a little amount)...sex was awful and I nexted her immediately;
- one was a 24yo who I fucked on the first date, straight to my home, and paid nothing;

Was sex with them satisfying? I would say mostly no, it was not (apart from that last chick which I really enjoyed...and cost me nothing lol).

I never understood the concept of paying for sex, I never liked escorts, and I really really like the whole process of seducing a woman. On the back of my head, I knew money (or some kind of "gift") was expected from this interaction, so I could not wrap my head around it. But that's me, and I cannot say that other guys could not enjoy it. But again, it's not seduction, and never will be...it's a financial transaction with some physical attraction involved.

Are they hot?

That depends....the 19yo was sure a beauty, but a little cold in bed for my taste....the other two where ok, but not very different from the girls you see on tinder. The fourth one had good chemistry, and is probably gonna become a regular on my rotation.

RESPONSE RATES
my response rates where awesome, and I had a lot of 9s answering and even agreeing to fuck me straight out of the app (were they escorts? dunno really....some seemed legit though).

Is it better than tinder or regular dating apps? For response rates, yes. For quality, it depends. If you pay tinder, you have the same quality of the SB apps if you look close enough - although it will sure be more hard to get matches and responses (specially if you are "taken" like myself).

The advantage is that chicks on SB apps don't care at all if you are married or have a serious GF. Some even prefer it for privacy and security.

FINAL THOUGHTS
Although I see the discussion as valid, I agree with Chase..SB dating is not game and should not be a part of a seduction forum. You sure won't improve doing it...quite the opposite in fact....it's probably gonna become a crutch, specially if you have the money to spare (you can easily fuck 9s on the first meet if you pay them what they ask, with zero game involved).

I would not dabble with it unless you are already able to fuck regular chicks from other sources: preferably day or night game.

Edit: forgot to talk about the costs...although I did my best to keep them as low as possible, I've spent A LOT MORE than with chicks on Tinder or regular apps...On regular apps I'm able to fuck chicks spending zero cash (I just seat, tell them I'm ok once the waiter arrives and let them order and pay for their own shit if they want something).

 

[ljrozz69]

Hey Rob,
I over-reacted to your post, sorry for that.
I am glad that we agree

 

[trashKENNUT]

Don't be a freaking SIMP

Yes. We all must be a freaking Shrimp.
*Swims in Shrimp*

 

[darknesspua]

Well... I would just say that at the end of teh day one either pays for pussy with TIME or with MONEY.

TIME is finite. You can not make more of it and incurs in opportunity cost with other things in your life.

MONEY is an absolute and universal value, eternal (as long as the financial system exists) and you can make it while you sleep without opportunity cost of you know what you are doing.

With enough MONEY you can get ANY sort of chik you may want.

Even with the absolute best game in the entire world you will still be limited by your context (what kind of girls you have access to and how much time you got to work them) and still be required to waste a hell lot of time as dancing monkey entertainign idiots with nice ass to get a hot chick.

The question is... How much is worth your time, energy and effort compared to a pussy you will fuck for about 3-4 months?

Disclaimer: I am a cold approach guy who vomits on dating apps and will not use one even if I got paid. I have not paid for sex but not aginst it. I do like teh challenge and is a fun hobby for me to game instead of pay. I do believe that MONEY at the end of the line is more powerful.

 

[Eternity]

It is. At the end of the day it's your life your problem though. You're going to do whatever you want regardless of what people say.