Daygame: Probability, Randomness & Large Sample Sizes

[AspiringStoic]

This is a an aspect of cold approach that I feel is severely under discussed though @Chase has written an amazing article on it here :

Picking Up Girls and the Game of Asymmetric Returns

I’ve been relistening to Nassim Taleb’s wonderful book Fooled by Randomness, which is a probabalist’s dream read. And if there’s one thing that picking up girls turns you into, it’s a probabalist. Reading it (or listening to it on audio, as I am), you see a great many parallels between stock...

www.girlschase.com

I think what has helped me progress this far with my journey with cold approach has been first logically understanding and now slowly EMOTIONALLY understanding these aspects I am about to lay out.

This time I have a perfect set of data from my own cold approach adventures to lay it out. This post of course is as much for myself as it is for others who might benefit from it. So lets dig in!

September 2025
I am doing my regular daytime cold approaching. I usually do it everyday. Generally 1-6 approaches per day. So lets see how probability, randomness and ratios worked out at different points in just this month.

Crisis Point
Its 15 September and these are my stats:

Approaches: 51
Numbers: 6
Dates: 0

At this point, the stats look awful. I have gotten 6 numbers, and 5 of them have all been dead ends. 1 did not answer my first text and the other 4 have dropped off after a few messages. And 1 is kind of responding but very slowly.

This is the part that messes with most guys (and has messed with me in the past over and over again).

Panic & Identity Crisis

Guys begin to panic, get frustrated, post threads asking for suggestions on how to get a girl to respond, they go into crisis, wonder if they have become "too old" for pickup, is it feminism, is it the weather, is it their fashion, maybe they need to increase their squat and bench press, add 2 inches to their biceps, add accessories to their clothes, maybe pickup is a scam, maybe pickup is not for them, maybe it works only for people of other races, maybe they are too short etc.

The mind struggles to make sense of this. What does all this mean? All 6 numbers have led nowhere!! Thats awful. What could be the reason???

I have done this myself and analysed all this and most importantly STOPPED approaching while doing all this analysing.

But this time, I know that I have been doing the same thing I have done for the rest of the year, the same thing that has gotten me dates before. So I just push through and continue despite all the thoughts going through my brain.

17 September (Breakthrough)
Finally I get a break and end up going on a date as the girl who was responding very slowly actually ends up coming out on a date. So now my stats look like this.

Approaches: 64
Numbers: 6
Dates: 1

Its still just 1 date out of 6 numbers. The thoughts persist as to whether something is wrong. But they are assuaged a bit because at least one of them came out on a date. So it keeps me going, plugging away, putting in the approaches and following the process.

27 September (Everything has changed!)

Now something amazing happens, from 18 to 27 September. I am doing the exact same thing as I was doing for the whole month but the "results" are now drastically different. Now my stats look like this.

Approaches: 84
Numbers: 11
Dates: 4

What looked absolutely awful stats 11 days ago with 0 dates out of 6 numbers has dramatically changed now.

Now its 4/11! 4 dates out of 11 phone numbers making it better than 1 date for every 3 numbers.

If you looked at my stats just 10 days ago, the conclusion could have been that something is very wrong with what I am doing. You should not get 6 numbers and have 0 dates!!

But in all the frantic choas to assign meaning to our results, we forget about our invisible FOE who is always at play in the background...

RANDOMNESS!

Lessons and Thoughts
Most guys dont realize that cold approach is not linear over smaller sample sizes. This is so freaking important.

You cannot always be certain that if you do 5 approaches or 10 approaches you will get x numbers or y dates. There is a huge amount of randomness at play.

But over larger sample sizes, randomness is neutralized more and more and plays less of a role.

Therefore the only things that mean anything in cold approach and especially in pure cold approach i.e. daytime in malls, parks, streets where literally the girl does not know you exist until you approach her, is data over LARGE SAMPLE SIZES!

I see so many threads of guys coming to random conclusions and agonizing over individual interactions. Trying to mind read what might be going on in girls' minds and WHY they are not responding or what went wrong in the interaction etc and completely forget about the inherent randomness of cold approach.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying we should not go over our interactions and analyse them. But the most important thing is sample size!!

Its different when a guy who is approaching regularly is analysing something based off of a pattern he has noticed and a guy who approaches irregularly or does it here and there getting a number or an interaction and then analsying the shit out of it.

Ratio of Time Spent Approaching: Time spent posting & Analysing

If you are having 1 or 2 interactions that lasted 2-3 minutes and then spending 20-30 minutes writing up your field reports and hours and days analysing them, you are wayyyy off.

The ratio should be more like 10 hours of cold approach: 2 hours of analysis.

Or better yet 90:10 in favour of actual hours spent cold approaching to analysing stuff on forums or watching pickup content.

I have read through a lot of old school stuff and discussions on archived forums back from the golden days of pickup. I was shocked at how much FIELD EXPERIENCE and taking MASSIVE ACTION were emphasized especially when a guy is new to pickup and is not getting results.

Nowadays that seems to be completely lost. Most guys think that they can treat this like a casual hobby on which they spend few minutes a day on and just get results and get good at this. And nobody seems to even call them out on it!

I am not talking about seduction as a whole here. I am talking exclusively about cold approach pickup.

Everything I have written here is specific to cold approach. I see many posts on how to get this girl from my class, my social circle, how to fuck my coach, how to steal some guy's girlfriend and the most random of discussions. I am not talking about those.

But when I see a guy who did some cold approach and is running around in circles and tying himself up in knots trying to analyse one individual random interaction, I feel for them. And I think this message needs to be conveyed.

Because these guys are the ones who will drop out of cold approach or become naysayers or just keep on experiencing frustration because they just do a little, get a few flakes, stop, then come back again and do this over and over again for years.

So for all you guys who are new or have not yet had results but aspiring to get good at cold approach remember this 1 thing:

This is a game of randomness and probablities and the first skill you need to develop is to learn to handle the randomness and not be thrown off by it.

So before you analyse anything, do a 100 approaches, over as short a period of time as possible, track your stats, and THEN analyse PATTERNS not individual interactions.

 

[average_daygamer]

I know this article has been inspired by my "German uni student number close" thread.

The concept of what you have written is fine, but the solution is where guys outside of capital cities face a problem.

I went out to my small approaching city last night for 3 hours between 8pm and 11pm and did about 10 approaches, varying between direct and indirect, gaining mostly blowouts. But my point is, there are girls to approach at that time, but I find getting them to hook is another story.

During the daytime, I can walk around for hours during the day and not see 1 girl I find attractive enough to approach. Or maybe I let one slip because I wasn't sure how old she was and then when I get confirmation she was of uni aged or above, she has walked off into the distance and I can't be bothered to run back and approach just for a rejection. But I do find it easier to hook during the daytime, if I had to put an estimate on it.

As for coffee shops, bookshops etc, it's a popular trope to suggest, but once you go to one in actual reality, it is almost always gonna be elderly people and families. I have not once seen a hot girl in such a place. Maybe in large cities with a lot of foot traffic it's different, idk.

On other days during daygame, depending on volume, I have done 5 approaches, but I still had to walk around for 5 hours to do them.

 

[AspiringStoic]

I know this article has been inspired by my "German uni student number close" thread.

The concept of what you have written is fine, but the solution is where guys outside of capital cities face a problem.

I went out to my small approaching city last night for 3 hours between 8pm and 11pm and did about 10 approaches, varying between direct and indirect, gaining mostly blowouts. But my point is, there are girls to approach at that time, but I find getting them to hook is another story.

During the daytime, I can walk around for hours during the day and not see 1 girl I find attractive enough to approach. Or maybe I let one slip because I wasn't sure how old she was and then when I get confirmation she was of uni aged or above, she has walked off into the distance and I can't be bothered to run back and approach just for a rejection. But I do find it easier to hook during the daytime, if I had to put an estimate on it.

As for coffee shops, bookshops etc, it's a popular trope to suggest, but once you go to one in actual reality, it is almost always gonna be elderly people and families. I have not once seen a hot girl in such a place. Maybe in large cities with a lot of foot traffic it's different, idk.

On other days during daygame, depending on volume, I have done 5 approaches, but I still had to walk around for 5 hours to do them.

You keep repeating the same excuse when on multiple threads we have told you, that if you are serious about learning this, you need to find a way to go to a big city and approach regularly.

And it was not only because of your thread, there are several people who do this where they are over analysing 1 or 2 interactions instead of approaching regularly.

And I did the same too in the beginning.

 

[average_daygamer]

There is an argument for intangibles, though, for instance, identifying flaws in individual interactions and improving upon them.

I can improve in proposing a date in more detail during the interaction , so far I have failed due to not thinking on my feet fast enough about what to do.

My offer of a coffee or a walk may not be exciting enough for the girl. So anything to increase the conversion rate in a scarce environment is certainly going to help converting leads into dates.

I do go to London from time to time, but the problem is that it's good for practice, but not for dates, as most of the chicks don't actually live there, or even in the country.

But yes, ideally, I would get more volume in.

 

[OldGuy]

If women are out in large numbers between 8PM-111PM, it sounds more like a "meet market" than not, so is more night game than day game.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

BIG BUMP

Criminally underrated post @AspiringStoic . Nicely done.

Put this in the category of your favourite rapper's favourite rapper level content.

This is the exact type of post we need to be encouraging. Actual systems, with real life numbers so guys can reverse engineer how to consistently get what they want and don't rely on "luck".

Some things to add:

1. What gets measured gets managed. - Giving value here's a notion tracker I use to make it easy to track. Column one opens up to a separate page so you can track both your raw numbers and qualitative thoughts. The combination helped me improve my conversion rates relatively quickly.


2. Tilt - this is a poker term for emotional reaction to outcomes. For example if a poker player's just won, he may get too loose with his bets and if he's losing play it too safe. In daygame and any asymmetric returns game keeping emotional composure and focusing on good execution despite the "randomness" of results that average out over time is so important.

Often it's where newbies suck the most and where even experienced guys get in their own heads (me included).

3. More daygame numbers - so lurkers can see realistic 2025 numbers in a major Western city from a guy who's decent at this (if I say so myself).


And in a side note to get this off my chest...

But yes, ideally, I would get more volume in.

Not "ideally", at your level you "must". Otherwise you'll keep going around in circles.

Not enough targets --> gets limited practice --> stays low competence --> messes up few opportunities --> tries to get more practice to improve competence and goes to the original issue of not enough targets...

Everyone's being too nice to you. To improve you need to commute to London or move there.

Yes to get good at cold approach, you need a big population. No ifs or buts.

What your doing is the equivalent of a panda who lives in a desert but can travel to a bamboo farm. Instead of the panda travelling to the bamboo farm they're staying in the desert and complaining there's not enough food...

Other pandas are telling you to go to the farm but your saying no, there's enough food where I am, while still complaining it's hard to get food in the desert... Madness!!

You can only make small cities work if you're highly competent and make every approach can't which you're not.. YET

You will only get competence with high volume, not going around in circle with low volume.

 

[average_daygamer]

BIG BUMP

Criminally underrated post @AspiringStoic . Nicely done.

Put this in the category of your favourite rapper's favourite rapper level content.

This is the exact type of post we need to be encouraging. Actual systems, with real life numbers so guys can reverse engineer how to consistently get what they want and don't rely on "luck".

Some things to add:

1. What gets measured gets managed. - Giving value here's a notion tracker I use to make it easy to track. Column one opens up to a separate page so you can track both your raw numbers and qualitative thoughts. The combination helped me improve my conversion rates relatively quickly.


2. Tilt - this is a poker term for emotional reaction to outcomes. For example if a poker player's just won, he may get too loose with his bets and if he's losing play it too safe. In daygame and any asymmetric returns game keeping emotional composure and focusing on good execution despite the "randomness" of results that average out over time is so important.

Often it's where newbies suck the most and where even experienced guys get in their own heads (me included).

3. More daygame numbers - so lurkers can see realistic 2025 numbers in a major Western city from a guy who's decent at this (if I say so myself).


And in a side note to get this off my chest...



Not "ideally", at your level you "must". Otherwise you'll keep going around in circles.

Not enough targets --> gets limited practice --> stays low competence --> messes up few opportunities --> tries to get more practice to improve competence and goes to the original issue of not enough targets...

Everyone's being too nice to you. To improve you need to commute to London or move there.

Yes to get good at cold approach, you need a big population. No ifs or buts.

What your doing is the equivalent of a panda who lives in a desert but can travel to a bamboo farm. Instead of the panda travelling to the bamboo farm they're staying in the desert and complaining there's not enough food...

Other pandas are telling you to go to the farm but your saying no, there's enough food where I am, while still complaining it's hard to get food in the desert... Madness!!

You can only make small cities work if you're highly competent and make every approach can't which you're not.. YET

You will only get competence with high volume, not going around in circle with low volume.

Let's say I do come up to London. Would you be willing to link up?

 

[James Cruse]

Guys begin to panic, get frustrated, post threads asking for suggestions on how to get a girl to respond, they go into crisis, wonder if they have become "too old" for pickup, is it feminism, is it the weather, is it their fashion, maybe they need to increase their squat and bench press, add 2 inches to their biceps, add accessories to their clothes, maybe pickup is a scam, maybe pickup is not for them, maybe it works only for people of other races, maybe they are too short etc.

The mind struggles to make sense of this. What does all this mean? All 6 numbers have led nowhere!! Thats awful. What could be the reason???

I have done this myself and analysed all this and most importantly STOPPED approaching while doing all this analysing.

But this time, I know that I have been doing the same thing I have done for the rest of the year, the same thing that has gotten me dates before. So I just push through and continue despite all the thoughts going through my brain.

This is a large problem with guys learning seduction - but I believe they certainly should be looking at those 60+ approaches and handful of phone numbers to ask - what COULD I have done better. Too many guys ask, "what went wrong?" rather than - what exactly could I do to improve in daygame?

I have been doing mostly daygame for almost 9 years now and I tell this to students to ask themselves when trying to improve their daygame:

1. Did I escalate (the interaction & physically)?
2. Was there compliance & how would I get more compliance/co-operation?
3. Did I take the seduction to it's natural conclusion (as far as I could) or did I eject early and get a phone number? (Ejecting Early usually looks like: because I wanted to talk to other girls/I ran out of things to say/interaction became awkward/she resisted further compliance)

I would bet your biggest issue and why your numbers look so bad would become clear after you answered the above questions.
Even when I was starting out daygame exclusively where I was only going for numbers, I would get most of their numbers and more than half would text back then most (not all) of those texting back would convert to dates.

(Question for you: What seduction method or system are you using? It's not working for you or your implementation of it is not working.)

Approaches: 84
Numbers: 11
Dates: 4

Even these numbers still look fairly poor, considering you know seduction. 11 phone numbers from 84 approaches? I think you need to write up more clear and very detailed field reports for as many of these as possible - I think there may be some serious issues with both your fundamentals and seduction method.

Instadates & Same Day Lays:
Are you escalating to Instadates - it doesn't look like it. If not, why not? Are you going for Same Day lays for any of these? If not, why not?

RANDOMNESS!

Lessons and Thoughts
Most guys dont realize that cold approach is not linear over smaller sample sizes. This is so freaking important.

I really don't like when men say "there's randomness in seduction".

(To me) Randomness = God in the Gaps or "Magical Thinking" = "I don't really know what happened & I don't understand how or why; so I'll say it's random/chance/bad luck"

I think it's ok to not know the answer to something - just acknowledge and set aside that you don't know the answer to why and endeavour to search for the answer over time.
This same method should be done for when you get things right and don't know why.

I think we should all be discouraged from the 'Magical Thinking'' fatalism of chalking anything we do correctly or incorrectly as simply "luck/randomness" simply because we don't understand it.

During the daytime, I can walk around for hours during the day and not see 1 girl I find attractive enough to approach. Or maybe I let one slip because I wasn't sure how old she was and then when I get confirmation she was of uni aged or above, she has walked off into the distance and I can't be bothered to run back and approach just for a rejection. But I do find it easier to hook during the daytime, if I had to put an estimate on it.

As for coffee shops, bookshops etc, it's a popular trope to suggest, but once you go to one in actual reality, it is almost always gonna be elderly people and families. I have not once seen a hot girl in such a place. Maybe in large cities with a lot of foot traffic it's different, idk.

I live in a very heavily populated capital city in Australia and this can be a huge issue for me: There are so few genuinely attractive women walking around during the day, it can be time consuming to meet any. Many of the attractive women I see in my day-to-day life (supermarket, gym, shops, wherever) are with their boyfriends.

You do need to identify a place to daygame that does have alot of attractive women and what time they'll likely be there - or you will waste alot of time with daygame. This is supplemental to women you approach going about your daily life.

The amount of attractive women you see during the day will never compare to a Saturday night in the club/bar district.

That's why I think there's alot of sloppy seductions methods over the years: Guys in forums only go to bars/clubs and have dozens of attractive SINGLE women they can approach - so when they fail with one, there's 10-30 other attractive single women with 10 metres of the girl who just rejected you.
So these guys don't really assess how or why they did well or not - they simply churn through approaches until their successful or the lights come on and they have to go home.

 

[average_daygamer]

I live in a very heavily populated capital city in Australia and this can be a huge issue for me: There are so few genuinely attractive women walking around during the day, it can be time consuming to meet any. Many of the attractive women I see in my day-to-day life (supermarket, gym, shops, wherever) are with their boyfriends.

You do need to identify a place to daygame that does have alot of attractive women and what time they'll likely be there - or you will waste alot of time with daygame. This is supplemental to women you approach going about your daily life.

The amount of attractive women you see during the day will never compare to a Saturday night in the club/bar district.

That's why I think there's alot of sloppy seductions methods over the years: Guys in forums only go to bars/clubs and have dozens of attractive SINGLE women they can approach - so when they fail with one, there's 10-30 other attractive single women with 10 metres of the girl who just rejected you.
So these guys don't really assess how or why they did well or not - they simply churn through approaches until their successful or the lights come on and they have to go home.

That's very true. On a Saturday night, I can get about a dozen approaches done just walking up and down the high street. And this is a small city of population 150000, according to Google.

During the daytime in that same high street, it's like having to pick a needle out of a haystack, you are constantly having to scan the crowd and be on a second's notice to go or not.

The only place I have found during the day to approach women which has better odds to see girls is the campus; but I am closer to 40 these days than 30 so if something goes wrong, the security could tell me to get lost as I can't justify when I am even there when I am not studying. Even if I larp as a student, it's going to be pretty obvious I am not, due to the time I am there.

Also it becomes a problem in the interaction as well, because the girl will often ask "so what are you studying" then you've got to explain that you are not actually a student there, which can kill the vibe.

So other than the campus, there are the accommodation blocks elsewhere in the city, they are on a public footway so I don't have to justify as much, but it's still going to look dodgy to just hang around them looking for chicks to approach.

What normally happens for me atleast in my small daygame city is daygame turns into a glorified walk around the city with 1 or 2 approaches in the session. There are some days like Monday where it was busier than usual and I was able to get 5 approaches done, but most of them were rejections due to girls being in a rush.

But the thing is, without walking around, you are never going to know how busy it is.

So yeah, it's certainly a limitation with daygame, but I just can't see myself being able to make a connection with a drunk girl who is overstimulated by alcohol and bright lights.

Daygame is a good skill to have but most smaller towns and even some small cities just aren't suited to it, it seems, as you need a lot of potential approach opportunities to make it work.

 

[James Cruse]

The only place I have found during the day to approach women which has better odds to see girls is the campus; but I am closer to 40 these days than 30 so if something goes wrong, the security could tell me to get lost as I can't justify when I am even there when I am not studying. Even if I larp as a student, it's going to be pretty obvious I am not, due to the time I am there.

Has this ever happened to you? I've never been talked to by security anywhere - they don't care unless you're going into closed buildings or restricted areas (but they would care if you were a student doing this).

There's tonnes of mature age students on any campus - so this is a problem you made up because you're anxious and fearful.

Also it becomes a problem in the interaction as well, because the girl will often ask "so what are you studying" then you've got to explain that you are not actually a student there, which can kill the vibe.

Just don't fully answer - just say you came for some supplemental lectures and move the conversation onto something actually interesting. If a woman is asking you this - it's a boring question and she has no idea what else to say.

 

[MrVariety]

I agree that guys can be overanalyzing each interaction - but like @James Cruse pointed out there has to be a balance. There's no such thing as mere "randomness." Every effect has its cause. Now that is not to say everything is in your control, but it's better to strive to understand than to ignore it.

I think the danger is drawing conclusions about one's ultimate character and fate from one day game session ,or one month. That's @AspiringStoic point, to not be emotionally swayed in every set, every session, every month, because of the variability but focus on long term patterns instead.

Personally I'd rather lean toward being harsh on myself believing there must be something I can do better - rather than shrugging my shoulders and think I'm awesome. I'm the type of guy who sit on the toilet and cringe and throw toilet paper across the room because I remember I said something slightly uncalibrated or something like that. But again, both of them are important, you need a cocktail of both self-scrutiny and self-mercy.

If I approach a girl and she said leave me alone, not because I am fundamentally a bad person but because her dog just died, and her PMS is starting, I like to believe there are still ways I could have been more empathic with her body language and instead of saying "hi bby damn u fine" opening with something more calibrated, or maybe I should not have approached at all. I don't believe in limits to how socially calibrated we can become.

Before calling it "pure randomness" and that your fundamentals isn't the problem, just remember that some guys have better results than you and you can improve. Beating a dead analogy to death, but Brad Pitt would not be getting 14% number close rate. Though you don't even need to be ridiculously famous or handsome to pump up those numbers, there's always room for improvement in how you go about closing the number. Ideally you don't want to take the number from a girl who's not wanting to see you and it's very weird that less than half of girls that want to see you, don't.

MV

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Let's say I do come up to London. Would you be willing to link up?

Do 200 approaches, get good & I’d consider it

Even these numbers still look fairly poor, considering you know seduction. 11 phone numbers from 84 approaches?

Genuinely curious because people don’t talk about it enough,

What would you define as “good”?

For me, my target “good” & realistic aim when running large volume IE 100 a month would be

100 approaches
(30% approach to number )
30 numbers
(33% number to date)
10 dates
(50% date to lay)
5 lays.
(5% approach to lay)

Think I read somewhere years back that anywhere between 4-8% approaches to lay ratio makes you good bordering elite.

For full transparency I’m at 2% approach to lay while taking daygame seriously again.

My numbers conversations are 20% approach to number, 20% number to date and 25% date to lay.

That’s out of a hiatus though and confident I can get to my aim above.

Props to op for actually sharing their numbers because too many guys say “that can be better” without sharing their own numbers or realistic conversion metrics based on experience with substantial volume…

But again, both of them are important, you need a cocktail of both self-scrutiny and self-mercy.

+1 couldn’t have said it better. I think it’s important to be “realistic” though. A guy could end up beating himself up for 50% cold approach to number thinking he has to optimize when in fact he’s elite there and needs to move on to other parts of the funnel

 

[James Cruse]

What would you define as “good”?

For me, my target “good” & realistic aim when running large volume IE 100 a month would be

100 approaches
(30% approach to number )
30 numbers
(33% number to date)
10 dates
(50% date to lay)
5 lays.
(5% approach to lay)

Think I read somewhere years back that anywhere between 4-8% approaches to lay ratio makes you good bordering elite.

For full transparency I’m at 2% approach to lay while taking daygame seriously again.

My numbers conversations are 20% approach to number, 20% number to date and 25% date to lay.

Like I said above when I first started doing daygame (after I had been doing almost exclusively night game for 8-9 years), I was getting over 50% of their numbers from the approach (some girls I really just didn't like though, so didn't get their number).

Then say, over half of those answered my follow up texts and 80% of those that answered texts went on a date and maybe 75% converted to sex.

I thought those numbers were total garbage - because I was doing so much better from clubs. I couldn't understand why so few were answering my texts considering all the women I'd pulled in clubs and girls that had texted back then.

My numbers conversations are 20% approach to number, 20% number to date and 25% date to lay.

Do you NEVER go for the same day lay now? I'm always going for the same day lay.

I've never seen a date-lay ratio that bad - brother, what are you doing on dates? You really need to fix that. The other conversions aren't so bad, except the date to lay.

 

[MrVariety]

The whole percentages and batting average talk never made fully sense to me.
First you have to qualify what it means to approach, and secondly it implicitly means that the ratio of what converts to numbers, dates and lays are associated with your seduction prowess.

But it's not.

First of all I don't think you should quantify approaches. It doesn't make sense to do this, the only way this makes sense is if you're stuck in the classical pick up paradigm. In reality your life should be bumping into people all the time, "pinging", high-fiving, making small talk to lots of people, including hot women, and it doesn't make sense to try to categorize what is an approach or not.

Yesterday I was stretching and I started a conversation with two girls stretching also nearby asking about their work out. Was that an approach? Physically I didn't approach them, I was just talking into their direction. Was my intention to get a number?

Keeping track of how many numbers you get per "approach" also assumes you're trying to sell something, whereas in my reality it's more like buying. I'm checking out if someone is interesting enough to be in my life. To test the chemistry. What % of girls end up in my contacts is pretty irrelevant to my seduction skills.

It also depends on why you approach. If you're mass approaching women to learn pick up and fight AA, you're going to have less quality but more quantity, whereas if you approach because you genuinely believe you and that girl might work out, there's a higher chance.

You can basically just get an insanely better approach : number ratio if you just become more selective and train the skill of reading women's body language and get an intuition of what girls you like and like you back, so you talk to them. If you keep an excel sheet of approach to lay ratio, maybe the student (I know I would) become too overly conscious about keeping the ratio good that they will stop approaching questionable sets so their learning would be retarded.

Also having a date : lay ratio implicitly assumes that you'd bang everything with two legs. It's perfectly normal and OK to not want to bang a chick if you didn't find her very appealing on a date. It shouldn't "hurt your statistics" and keeping track of these things might encourage unnecessary psychopathy. The ratio is just as much a display of your standards as it is your game. It's ultimately a misleading stat. I get that "what doesn't get measured won't get managed" but it just doesn't apply to this.

MV

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Like I said above when I first started doing daygame

I’m going to be stubborn here bro, I talk in recent numbers (last 12 months) otherwise this is old news

I was getting over 50% of their numbers from the approach

maybe 75% converted to sex.

I thought those numbers were total garbage -

These are top tier numbers in my opinion man. If you’re maintaining this at 100 approaches and not 10 here or there then all power to you.

I’ve had similar conversions in the past but it slid down as I approached more.

Do you NEVER go for the same day lay now? I'm always going for the same day lay.

Yes, most of my lays are 1st day

I've never seen a date-lay ratio that bad - brother, what are you doing on dates? You really need to fix that.

Lool trust me there’s far worse, people just aren’t honest. I’m actively improving on it, based on last 6 dates my lay conversion is 50% so it’s going in the right direction.


I understand the point you’re making @MrVariety where my difference in opinion is I think numbers help dates, lays and girlfriends (if you do choose) repeatable. For me not counting it makes it all feel accidental but appreciate this is individual preference. Not everyone is as much of a control freak as me lol.

First you have to qualify what it means to approach,

I agree

In reality your life should be bumping into people all the time, "pinging", high-fiving, making small talk to lots of people, including hot women,

I also agree, for me it would be any “hot women” here

Yesterday I was stretching and I started a conversation with two girls stretching also nearby asking about their work out. Was that an approach? Physically I didn't approach them, I was just talking into their direction. Was my intention to get a number?

If this was me, I’d count this as an indirect approach however only you’d know the true answer. Self honesty is required.

whereas in my reality it's more like buying. I'm checking out if someone is interesting enough to be in my life

100% agree

My difference is I don’t see opens as me being a seller more just tracking how many girls do I need to interact with to (on average) get a girl I click with.

What % of girls end up in my contacts is pretty irrelevant to my seduction skills.

As someone who’s actively worked on and improved my approach to number I 100% disagree.

so much you can do with girl selection, deep-diving, qualifying, date-seeding etc

Also having a date : lay ratio implicitly assumes that you'd bang everything with two legs. It's perfectly normal and OK to not want to bang a chick if you didn't find her very appealing on a date. It shouldn't "hurt your statistics

Agree which is why I aim for 50% not 100%. If I kept being on dates with girls I’m not into I’d translate that to a me problem with upfront selection & qualifying

) become too overly conscious about keeping the ratio good that they will stop approaching questionable sets so their learning would be retarded.

Genuine downside to my approach but for me, mentally mitigating this has led to more benefits than bad

again though to conclude not saying my way is better for everyone just think tracking’s an underrated point that’s helped me improve very quickly and remove “guess work” or feeling of random serendipity to get girls.

 

[MrVariety]

If this was me, I’d count this as an indirect approach however only you’d know the true answer. Self honesty is required.

Mhmm. I'm not sure where the self honesty is required, I mean, what I think you mean is that we have to be honest about ourselves about the fact we've been rejected or not. In my case yesterday, I didn't feel like I was rejected because I was just making conversation, I have an addiction to making women laugh, I made them laugh and in my book it was a success. Getting a number didn't cross my mind because while they were cute I wasn't super attracted.

As someone who’s actively worked on and improved my approach to number I 100% disagree.

so much you can do with girl selection, deep-diving, qualifying, date-seeding etc

I wasn't careful with my words there. I agree that seduction is a skill and it can be improved so that the percentage is higher. But my point is that I don't usually feel rejected if it doesn't. I don't feel that poor game is to blame when I talk to a girl and I don't leave with a number. For me it's mostly chemistry. I have thrown the idea of rejection out of the window and I think keeping stats make that omnipresent. I almost never think of myself as rejected - I hardly ever ask for a phone number and being told no, unless I'm working on sticking point on closing aggressiveness building ABC routine etc. Once in a blue moon I face rejection and I'm struck by the fact I'm not good enough and I can do better, I'm not withholding from max effort in different things and fucks my ego up which is healthy. The reason is that I only ask if the chemistry is good. Truth is, (this was prevalent in my past) most of the time a woman says no is when deep down I also say no. (This is uncomfortable, I don't want to talk to her anymore, let's just do the ABC thing and bail)

again though to conclude not saying my way is better for everyone just think tracking’s an underrated point that’s helped me improve very quickly and remove “guess work” or feeling of random serendipity to get girls.

I'm curious as to how it made you improve quicker and remove guess work. Since there are so many factors that doesn't fit an excel sheet I'm having troubles seeing how the numbers can not only measure progress, but also speed it up. But I'm glad it works for you, each to their own.

MV

 

[James Cruse]

These are top tier numbers in my opinion man. If you’re maintaining this at 100 approaches and not 10 here or there then all power to you.

Those numbers are terribly bad - I attribute them to my habit of always going for the phone number and never same days sex (back then).

I’m going to be stubborn here bro, I talk in recent numbers (last 12 months) otherwise this is old news

I only used those conversions because I rarely go for numbers now - I go for same day lays lays exclusively and get the number as a consolation.

The last 4 girls where I got their number from daygame (because I had to be elsewhere) I pulled 3 in 4. The one I didn't pull was a serious attainability issue for her - I think she thought I was way out of her league. The rest I slept with on date 1 (one was kind of a second date-ish).

Yes, most of my lays are 1st day

So within an hour or so of first cold approaching them or you mean when you get their number - first date (at a later time)?

My difference is I don’t see opens as me being a seller more just tracking how many girls do I need to interact with to (on average) get a girl I click with.

I think tracking these numbers is relevant (with large samples) - it's helped me tremendously in going towards more effective seductions and what works or doesn't.

This is alot harder to track in clubs because there is alot of non-seduction socialising that you're doing - but I do less of this during the day, honestly.

I know the women I'm interested in seducing during the day - and those women who aren't, so even when I am socialising - the number of those socialisations aren't counted or relevant.

I agree with his earlier point though - there is always going to be several approaches where you just don't like the girl or she's quite unattractive when you get talking to her, so you need to count it but I just use them as throwaways/practice.

 

[DoWhatWorks]

Those numbers are terribly bad - I attribute them to my habit of always going for the phone number and never same days sex (back then).

Brother... Based on the "terrible" numbers you shared, you're telling me you can approach 100 girls in an Australian city, get 50 numbers then sleep with 30+ of those girls from numbers you collected???

Based in 2024-2025 and not years gone by???

Assuming the girls are attractive, I'll fly over there to learn from you lol because we've either got different definitions or there's a level of game out there that I didn't know is possible...

I only used those conversions because I rarely go for numbers now - I go for same day lays lays exclusively and get the number as a consolation.

Nice, this is a level I haven't reached yet. Not being sarcastic if you're willing/ get time to share how, I'd learn/value that a lot.

The last 4 girls where I got their number from daygame (because I had to be elsewhere) I pulled 3 in 4

This is where the rubber meets the road in my opinon. When I filter to last 12 months your response reduces to 4. Which is lower volume. Doesn't takeway from what you're pulling off, still solid but we have to share the entire funnel so we compare like for like.

So within an hour or so of first cold approaching them or you mean when you get their number - first date (at a later time)?

Number then first date. Haven't mastered same day daygame lays (yet)

This is alot harder to track in clubs because there is alot of non-seduction socialising that you're doing - but I do less of this during the day, honestly.

Agreed, I don't bother tracking this with night but do in day because I also do less of that casual socializing.

I agree with his earlier point though - there is always going to be several approaches where you just don't like the girl or she's quite unattractive when you get talking to her, so you need to count it but I just use them as throwaways/practice.

Maybe I'm being too rigid because I count it. Again I don't see the numbers as purely a reflection of me, more so how many people I need to meet to find someone I vibe with.

Mhmm. I'm not sure where the self honesty is required, I mean, what I think you mean is that we have to be honest about ourselves about the fact we've been rejected or not. In my case yesterday, I didn't feel like I was rejected because I was just making conversation, I have an addiction to making women laugh, I made them laugh and in my book it was a success. Getting a number didn't cross my mind because while they were cute I wasn't super attracted.

That's fair. I don't class these as rejections more so just number of interactions.

Sounds like I'm just stricter with what I call an "approach" sounds like you and james count it as girls you're genuinely into with other girls just being practice or you being socialable whereas I class an approach as anyone I've interacted with.

For me it's mostly chemistry

Me too, if the chemistry is not there I guess the difference is I may escalate the attraction if I find her attractive just to keep the skills sharp and meet my lowkey addiction need of sleeping with new women...

I'm curious as to how it made you improve quicker and remove guess work. Since there are so many factors that doesn't fit an excel sheet I'm having troubles seeing how the numbers can not only measure progress, but also speed it up

To give a tangible example in early days of re-starting daygame my approach to number was 15-20%.

That's the number and science behind it. The art was reflecting on my interactions and realizing a common trend was girls continuing to walk after my opener.

So I focused on being more assertive with the approach and getting in front of them while also giving them space to eject after the opener. Just like that my approach to number increased to 25-33%.

It's the combination of tracking the numbers, then reflecting on patterns of behaviour across the girls you're talking to then improving behaviour to address the broad pattern which then improves the numbers.

By focusing on patterns and not individual interactions is also helps separate the noise between what's outside of your control and what's in your control. If 1 girl acts a certain why it may be her, but if 5 girls do, it's you.

Just my 2c.

 

[AspiringStoic]

This always comes down to this kind of debate. By randomness I dont mean magical thinking.

Let me first define what kind of daygame I am talking about.

I am talking about if we are standing on a street corner and I just point out girls who are passing by randomly and you go in and approach them. That kind. Meaning no IOI's, no filtering for girls who are walking slowly, no restricting yourself to girls sitting in parks, browsing in a book store, shopping in grocery stores, smoking outside a mall or an office etc.

Because if you do what I am saying, a lot of obstacles you run into have nothing to do with your seduction skills.

Time based constraints
Girls going to a doctor's appointment, late for work, running to class, running to an interview, girls catching a flight, train, tourists leaving the city, late to meet friends, family etc.

Obviously, if you get more targeted in your approaches like doing it on park benches, stationary sets, girls walking slowly etc, you eliminate a lot of this.

Now there are other things like girls who are married, who have serious boyfriends, who are engaged, who just broke up, who are in middle of a divorce etc.

Anyone who tells me that having better fundamentals or better seduction skills can overcome ALL these obstacles, I am highly skeptical about and I have never seen it done in front of me.

I have seen guys really good at the type of daygame I am talking about here and those numbers are not very far off from what @DoWhatWorks is describing.

And to answer @James Cruse, I am not saying that I have no room for improvement lol. I am at best a lower intermediate at this stuff. What I was saying in my original post is exactly that. That even a guy like me who is average at best, can get these kind of results with putting in this kind of volume.

You have guys I know in real life and on this forum who are talking about all these seduction concepts and analysing individual interactions in depth while they have not yet gotten 1 single date off cold approach. That is is just inconceivable.

If you are an average guy and you go upto enough women, tell them they are cute or pretty and make some basic small talk and ask them out on dates, it is INEVITABLE that you will get a date if you do enough volume. So when I see someone talking about all this stuff and then saying they have not got a single date, that is who I was targeting my original post not saying I have reached the pinnacle of skill and these are my stats.

And @James Cruse I dont go for instant dates and same day lays because I am doing my approaching usually in the mornings on the way to work or on my lunch breaks or in between other tasks. So I cannot really blow off work and go off on instant dates and try to bang girls in the middle of the day.

 

[AspiringStoic]

I see there is a huge divide in the definitions of what even counts as an approach. I am on the same page as @DoWhatWorks . If I find a girl attractive and I say anything to her. That is an approach.