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bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
Curious, what is your pull line?
I'll answer, but with a lecture first. The lecture is, any given line isn't the "key" to success. Vibe is the key, and the words you use to do any part of the interaction are more incidental. Focus on vibe. For the pull line, what matters is everything you did before, and if you did a good job, the words work. If you didn't, they won't work. Lecture over.

Nothing crazy. "I have some wine at my apartment, want to go grab a drink there?" or "Let's go have some wine on my roof" or "I have a roof with a great view of the city let's go hang out there."
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I went on a date the other day.

We met up for drinks. Sat. Talked. Vibed. Asked for compliance like showing me her jewelry. Tried to touch, but didn't really work. Walked. Invited her home, she said not really. We walked and sat in some grass for a bit. Pulled her in. Tried kissing her. She said I don't kiss on the first date. I backed off. We talked more. Walked back. She left to go home.

The deep diving was decent. Talking about things. Turning it sexual I didn't really do well if at all. Touch, I tried to get closer, but it was the classic situation where she is sitting straight up in a chair with space between us, and it's hard to get any closer. Also, I worry I might be too witty or jokey during the date. Then again, aren't I making it fun? Not sure. Much of the date seemed good, with conversation. I guess I'm not sure if I saw any "indicators of interest." Then again, I rather rarely do see them. My voice was not on point. That is something to be aware of more, how my voice sounds. It kind of goes with the witty jokes. The witty joke tone is not good for asking real questions.

The negative compliance was not good. But the positive compliance was good. So I guess there is good stuff there. Upon meeting her, I wanted to have us move to a different bar both because I wanted to try it and for the compliance piece. But she had already gotten a table, so I stayed with the original plan.

Something I'd like to try is more hypnotic talking. More sensual. Instead of witty banter. That is probably what the seduction was missing. Less witty jokes, more sensual conversation. The witty banter is good, it just isn't needed the whole time.

I will ask her out again, but there is a 0.5% chance she says yes. She was more attractive than girls I normally go out with. She was 24, and not fat. I wouldn't say I was nervous. You just have to be that much more on point to get more attractive girls.

I met up for drinks with another girl another day recently. She was fat, and I decided pretty early on that I wouldn't try to pull her home. We talked and deep dived for a while. She gave hints of wanting to move it forward, saying "do you date immigrants?" (in her good but not perfect English). I also touched her on the arm once, and she lit up. I took her question as a sign of wanting to move it more sexual. Which I would do by touching her more and getting physically closer. I could/ should/ would have, for the practice. But I didn't move on from the deep dive section to the sexual section, and we parted ways after some time.

It's funny to me how these girls that give little if any signals of liking you, then say or do something to imply that they like you, or want you to turn it more sexual or whatever. Put another way, am I missing signals to move things forward, such that she feels the need to be more blatant? I don't know. Is moving your hair once to the side a signal of interest? Is sitting up straight like a soldier, and not touching back when you touch them a signal of interest? I don't know. But multiple girls who have done this have indeed come home with me and become lovers. Others, not so much. What is the signal it's time to turn the conversation sexual? I rely on a rough sense of timing right now. But is there a better signal?

This girl was also weirdly quiet when walking together. Was she just wanting it to be over, and just going with it to be polite? Or was she awkward because liked me and didn't want to mess it up? Or was she deciding what to do or not do if I made a move? Or was she interested, then annoyed that I missed her signals and then went into auto-rejection? Or maybe she is just quiet and okay with silence in general? Hard to tell.

Sometimes I think the best game is to just have excellent body language (straight back), a deep voice, and facial expressions. Forget the rest. These are the most important parts.
 
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bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I went on a date with a girl the other day.

We met in front of one bar. We moved to another one. We talked. She was good at talking, meaning she could talk a blue streak, so I listened for a while, asking some questions and teasing her. I needed to interject and tease her more, though, because if I just let her go on and on, these somewhat interesting but ultimately platonic stories would go on for a while. I back some physical touch. I invited her back for a drink. There, we kissed for a second, but she stopped and said "I don't know you enough yet." We talked for a while more. I did ask about some more qualifying things, including if she did anything artistic. This was more helpful, because she was qualifying herself, plus it is more interesting to me. We kissed some more. Then she said she had to leave. She said she enjoyed meeting me, and if we wanted to meet again to text her.

For this girl, I needed to interject more, to tease, clarify, and probe more. Some girls are easy to get talking. Some are harder. This girl was easy, because she was good at talking. But I just let her go, and she went on with these long stories. I need to interject. Otherwise, it doesn't feel personal enough. It feels like I was the audience for a monologue. This happened with another girl I remember. She talks and talks, and it's interesting talking in general, but it is just not personal enough. I need to interject. What's good about these talking girls, is when you do ask qualifying questions, they talk a lot, which is qualifying herself. For example with this girl, I asked her about if she did something artistic, and she talked about drawing for like 5 minutes. With the other girl, I asked if she did something artistic, and she talked about writing and music for like 5 minutes. Point being, they are ready and willing to invest, you just have to interject to get to the questions you need to ask.

I also wore a watch, and used it to check time. I didn't want to stay at the bar for more than 60 minutes, because then it starts getting stale. If not sooner. That was about the time when we bounced from the bar to my place.

As far as posture, I felt I did this somewhat well. A few times, I checked in with myself to make sure I was sitting up straight. This is important, after sitting all day at a desk. And it is attractive.

I should make a list of things I want to talk about and get answers for. That way, I can ask them, and spend too much or too little time in them. For example, 1 passion/hobby, and 1 thing that's artistic. Artistic has emotional connotations, which is nice. Passion can be travel, or an Instagram account she makes money with posting memes (one girl did this), a sport like martial arts, hiking, theatre, etc. Exactly what it sounds like. Passions or hobbies. Then, I can move on to sexual topics, somehow. What makes her light up? That is what I'm trying to get to.

I also made sure my energy was more on-point today. I went to the gym and lifted, then did 30 minutes of zone 2 cardio. I also walked for about an hour. Ate well. Took a short nap. Pretty healthy day, overall. However, I did have to poop the whole date. Which isn't good. Not that you have to feel perfect to run dates well. But you might as well make sure you're feeling as good as possible.

The girl from the last post unmated with me on the app. We had coordinated through the app, so I won't be able to reach out to her again. So I don't even have a chance for a second date! Honestly, I think the best strategy on dating apps is to just never expect a girl to go out with you twice. If you don't close it on the first date, she's as good as gone. I'm sure it's that way with girls you met via night game or day game too. But at least in my experience with the apps, they rarely want to meet up again. This girl in this post said she enjoyed meeting me and maybe wanted to meet up again. I will text to find out. She was closer to the kind of girl I like, which is good. It is easier to get second dates with girls more similar to you. That is just common sense. People like hanging out and dating people who are like them. So that is a positive factor on meeting up again.

I can definitely see the benefit of social momentum. I only talked to a few people all day, then on the date you feel somewhat clammed up. Social momentum helps with this. Life is funny.
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I had a date the other day.

We went to the bar nearby. Sat and talked. She was very good at asking questions, and looking interested. We talked about some good things. She talked about the creative stuff she wanted to try, as well as athletic stuff. We also talked about the art of conversation, how asking questions is good. After about 1:15, I asked if she wanted to go back, but she said she wasn't thrilled about it on the first date. So we kept talking, and eventually I said I needed to go.

This was another one where I had trouble turning it sexual. That is, we have the good conversation, but it doesn't really get sexual or intimate. I tried getting close to her, or having her show me her jewelry. She stayed away, sitting straight up, seemingly a mile away, in the chair next to me. How on earth do you cut space and get closer? Or, frame things in a sexual way, so your conversation adds sexual energy? How can I escalate the vibe?

We talked for such a long time. It was vaguely interesting. But there's only so much talking I can handle. Sometimes you have to just shut up. Maybe I should start paying less attention to girls. They just like talking. Maybe I should look away, or look less interested. I'm not sure what this would accomplish. This girl was very good at asking questions. Which is cool. But sometimes you have to stop, take a pause, and allow the silence draw the other person into the conversation. Or maybe not.

How do I lead the conversation to sexual topics, or otherwise turn it sexual? Also, how do I get women to use a sexier voice when they're talking with me? I like sexy voices.

I used my smirk, which I feel helps. It gets me in a more sensual mode, and is fun and playful, and lowkey and intimate. That is the goal, anyway.

It's funny, the girl from a few days ago talked too much, much of it interesting, but ultimately not productive as far as a seduction goes. This girl was good at asking questions, which was engaging socially, but not ultimately not product as far as a seduction goes. Honestly, next time, I think I'm just going to look away when girls talk. If you give them attention, they will talk a lot. And not get close.

I know girls' agenda is not seduction. But still, wouldn't being seductive encourage suitors to pursue them more? C'mon women,
make me want to see you a second time (after not having sex on the first date).

How do I take it from a social conversation to sexual, without her keeping it social? That is my big question.

After asking her home, she did turn her legs a little more to me afterwards, getting incidental contact with our legs. Maybe this was her realizing that "hey, this guy does like me, maybe I need to do something." Or not.

Maybe I just need to tease them more. Right from the beginning. Tease her. Sure, good deep dive conversation is good. But establishing a teasing dynamic is more productive for seduction, and fun. That is what I want to do. Make sure to tease her personally more.

The smirking did seem to work. It also gave a slower, deeper, more hypnotic, more intimate voice. I liked that. I'll keep it. Posture-wise, I made sure a few times to sit up straight. I probably was sitting up straight most of the time. That is good. That probably helped a lot. Posture is valuable. So my fundamentals are 1. posture (straight back) 2. smirk (low, deep, intimate, hypnotic voice) 3. tease (active game, making the interaction fun, which you can then tease her more in a sexual way later).

For teasing, I did this with a girl a month or two ago. Going out, I made it a point to try to tease her. It worked, in that the conversation was more fun, and we ended up closing the deal. Other times, I've tried teasing or joking, but it comes across as too jokster-y or entertainer-y. What is the reason for this? You're not teasing HER, you're making jokes about the situation. Even if they are clever or witty, they aren't PERSONAL to her, and so they come across as being an entertainer or social, rather than intimate. Teasting HER rather than making clever general jokes is what you want to do. This goes along with good posture, and a smirk, because you are strong and in your frame, and can take the "risk" of teasing her. The point is, that it is PERSONAL to her. This is what I want to try and work on.
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
The other day I saw a girl I've seen 4 times now.

We've had sex each time, and she has been rather into me. However before she was leaving this latest time, she said I want to ask an awkward question. Sure. Have you been sleeping with other people? Yes. Okay, I would have liked to know for health reasons. Hm, right, luckily it's all healthy, so we're good there for now. (Silence for a minute). Me: I see this as casual, and then developing into more. Her: My concern is I feel like I like you more than you do me, and what if it doesn't turn into something more? Me: That's valid. Well, we should think about it. Okay. Me: It sounds like health reasons are important to you, so, if I sleep with other people do you want me to tell you? Her: Yes.

Then I walked her out and said goodbye and whatnot.

Later she texted "I'll let you know if I'm free next week". The old "don't call me we'll call you". She's done. That's how I read it, anyway.

As a side note, this was one of the girls where her vagina is smaller/tighter than my dick. Every time we have sex it feels like she is going to rip my dick off with her pussy. My dick hurts. It makes the sex quite a bit less enjoyable. In my experience, around 20% of women I've had sex with their vagina is small enough so that sex hurts for me. I wonder if it feels that way for them too. It's annoying, because it lowers the pool of women I'd like to see more. Oh well. Has anyone else experienced this?

So, this is a classic balance between value and attainability. Also, deciding what you want with a girl. Also, the process of converting them from casual lover to girlfriend. Let's pretend my desired plan here is to turn her into a girlfriend. The trick is keeping it going, for 3 months or whatever, until you allow her to call you her boyfriend. The point is, in this process, I sort of want to balance value and attainability enough so that she doesn't feel overinvested and go into auto rejection. In other words, as she said, she seems to like me more than me her. And I don't dislike her, I just want to keep it casual for the 3 month getting to know each other period.

This is the girl who the very first date, I used my smirk plus strong posture plus maybe teasing, and she hooked pretty hard. I also pulled her into me, and this seemed at the time, and looking back now, to create quite an experience for her. This is cool. It's cool seeing the power to get a girl to fall for you, figuratively and literally. I definitely want to use this more. This was definitely the hardest a girl has every hooked/fallen for me. Indeed, most times, they hardly seem interested at all, whether or not they sleep with me! I need to practice it more. Also, I might need to practice telling a girl I'm not boyfriend material. Disqualifying yourself as a boyfriend. I'm not sure how to do this necessarily.

A not-so-small part of this is texting. She will text me random stuff, on the days between seeing each other. Now, here's a question for the seducers. Do you like texting with a girl between meeting up? How often do you do it? Daily? Every other day? Never? My preference is never, because I'm busy. But do you risk coming across as unattainable or too aloof? Maybe.

Maybe I could use the "I just don't want to rush into anything." This seems like a weak-ass thing to say, though. It sounds like a guy who is wishy washy. Then again, I understand the frame. It's saying "not yet." You're trying to string along the other person. Is it better to tell them in a more upfront manner, I want something casual? Or better to have them figure it out from your actions? So many options.

As far as running this early relationship, how do you avoid the girl becoming too invested, and wanting too much too fast? That seems like what is happening with this girl. It's funny, because most girls I've slept with don't want to see each other again. Now this one likes me TOO much, and is risking going into auto rejection because I don't want to see her every other day or text her nonstop. What gives? Quality problems.

What's funny is I met this girl on Bumble. She said she had just joined the app, and gone on only one other date with another guy, who was not great. She has only slept with around 5 people her whole life. Point being, if she starts swiping again, she'll be one of the flakey app girls in no time flat! (That's my cynical and accurate take as it regards to apps). I don't envy the position of girls. They want a guy who is "high value" that other girls want ... but ideally they wouldn't want to share that man with other women. Such is life.

I'm not sure if there was a better way for me to set expectations from the beginning. Like, "I want this to be casual." Maybe this was the right time to set those expectations, because it is still pretty early, after where she is "converted" to seeing each other more, but before it goes on too long. Maybe she will buy into the frame. Maybe she won't. In my dating life, there have been 1 girl I saw around 7 times, 1 around 6, 2 3 times. You could call this a sticking point, in terms of converting girls to ongoing relationships. Then again, none of those other girls were ones I would have wanted to turn into girlfriends, necessarily. But, that doesn't mean I don't want to practice the skills! I guess this is a reason to go after girls you find attractive. It's more motivating to put yourself out there (for approaching), and being convicted in your desire to eventually turn her into a girlfriend to stick with it or invest.

Anyway...

It makes me wonder what non-game guys do. Do they say "yes I want you to be my girlfriend how long before we have sex?". Obviously that isn't a great alternative. This dating stuff takes forever. It's a bit of a wonder to me that so many people in the world are actually together. Then again, many people are together more out of fear/scarcity rather than abundance/preference. So any of the game stuff you do is valuable. It all contributes towards that abundance mentality that master daters possess.
 
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bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I had a date with a girl the other day.

We met at a new place I wanted to try. We met out front. Smiled, said hi. Went inside. Sat at bar. Started to talk and order. I moved us from the bar to a table, because it felt more away from people and so more intimate. Also we could sit together more easily. Plus having a compliance move is good. We sat there and talked. She was very nervous, silly, smilely, and talkative. We talked. She somewhat easily touched, turning towards me and allowing me to put my hand on her leg. I smirked, smiled, and teased her some. I tried to turn it to more sexual topics, but it only sort of worked. I said things like "I like [her race] girls". I used a low, mostly slow, smirking tone. Similar to Harrison Ford, looking back. Low and smirk.

After a bit I decided there was enough sexual premise and momentum and compliance, so I asked if she wanted to have some wine at my place. She asked how long it was and I said 5 minutes and she said sure. We paid the tab and left. Back at mine, I kissed and escalated. Her hand was on my dick, getting it out. I rubbed her vagina over her shorts. I said "let's go to the bedroom" "Do you do this all the time?" "Twice a day". We kept kissing and rubbing, then eventually I got up and just led her to the bedroom. No more LMR from there. Afterwards, she said "twice a day, that was a good answer".

So, this was a cool one. I liked the smirk and low voice, because smiling helps you be fun and playful and tease, which I had wanted to work on. It also gave a low voice, which I wanted to do, since low is almost always more in-control and masculine. You can also make it "smooth", giving it a more velvety feel, rather than harsh or loud, which I've done in the past. I like that I got some deep diving, but then went onto more intent and sexual based things. And then for pulling, I liked this, because I could feel that this was the time, where you want to pull to maintain momentum.

I listened to the podcast with Kvothe and there was a lot of useful stuff. One was how Hector said that K was moving too slow, which was placing him in boyfriend territory rather than lover. If you miss windows, it shifts you from potential lover to boyfriend candidate. I feel like I was having this issue as well, especially when I had less sexual intent verbals, which caused my conversations to drag on, which caused me to not know if I should pull, which caused it to go on too long, which caused me to be slotted into boyfriend, etc. By doing the right things, and moving faster, this is the solution to this particular problem.

I feel like that is what I did here. I made sure to hit the things I wanted to hit, then escalated (verbally and with touch), and then pull in a timely manner. Knowing you want to do this also sort of forces you to get all the things you need faster, like the deep dive investment, the sexual verbal and touch.

Some things went right here. First, I wanted it, for whatever reason. That might sound trivial, but my energy was pretty good, I think because I slept well the night before. Energy and sleep is important. To go on a tangent, I think my sleep was better because I took deep breaths before falling asleep. I felt pretty relaxed, and got right to sleep. I want to make sure to do this all the time. Having good energy is very important for seduction. Numerous days in the last month or so, I've felt tired and like I don't really want to do anything. Lately, I've felt a lot better. All of that adds up to you "wanting it". And when you want it, you do the things you need to do to make it happen.

I also liked that there was that moving compliance piece. It seems like things just go better when I can get some sort of compliance piece before getting into it. If you meet outside a certain bar, then many times I've just gone inside and sat down. Other times, I've said "hey, let's go to this other bar", then walked to another. This is one way to do that compliance step. Another way would be to say "meet me at 3st and 4th street" and you walk from there. That gives you movement compliance before sitting down to start the date. However that doesn't lend itself to my city. Another way to "manufacture" movement compliance might be to say "let's go in and sit down". That's kind of manufactured, though, because you already said you were going to meet there, so it either feels weird or not like true compliance. Another way is plan on meeting at a certain place, then meet there, and have you two go to a different place, like I've done on accident before. I might adopt this policy.

For the venue, it was a new one I was trying. The bar I didn't love, because the bartender is right on top of you and mixing drinks loudly, and it's right in the middle of everything. The table we moved to was good. I had us sit on the comfy benches next to each other, at a 4-person table, instead of across from each other. I like sitting next to each other rather than across. Also, I liked that the benches were comfortable. I've gone places with benches, and they are wood, and it's super uncomfortable. So that worked out well. The place wasn't very busy because it was a weeknight, which is good. But on a busy night, it would probably be pretty hard to get the kind of seating arrangement you want. It boggles my mind that bars don't know what proper seating is for people to have intimate conversations! Maybe I will design one.

Another thing working in my favor, I believe, was that she was foreign, and therefore more comfortable with touch, compared to American girls. Also just more sensual. This is why I enjoy Latin girls. Ideally you want to improve your own fundamentals enough so that even Western women from your own country like you, too. That is the goal.

I think the big takeaway from today is the smile/smirk/voice. That seemed to help with my mood, which is half the battle. When I'm feeling playful and teasing, yet masculine, that is a deadly combination. This is different from being the jokester playful, which I have in the past. Teasing her is more personal. And it seemed to come from my smile/smirk/voice. Then, tease, sexualize, and pull at the right timing.
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I have a few observations I want to think about.

I met up with the girl from the last previous post for a second time. Afterwards, she said something along the lines of "how much of a jerk are you?" then "you are a nice jerk." Also, that she didn't think I would text her again after the first time, although she seemed happy that I did. On the first date, I had made a point to tease more. This is good for sexual tension. It makes girls feel things. This was the goal I had in mind when I decided to tease more. What it then can lead to, is being on the nice guy -> jerk ->genuine spectrum.

That is, with this new approach, I'm adding in jerk elements to my personality, rather than just being nice. I'm kind of surprised. I didn't realize how much of a "nice" guy I was being before. The lays I got were more from building comfort, and then leading. Girls who were looking for something casual are down with that, but didn't want to meet up again mostly. But with creating tension by being a "jerk", you can turn the girls who are "neutral" into being actually attracted. Actual game. And this is good, because it gets a lot more women, and more attractive girls, rather than just whoever is immediately DTF (for whatever reason).

But let's back up. What do we mean when we say "jerk"? Whenever I hear someone say "that guy's a jerk", it usually is said with a bad connotation. However, I personally have never met a jerk. I've never worked with a jerk. I've never interacted with someone who I thought was a jerk. Mabye it's just because I have a strong sense of self and so am not put off by people acting in their own self-interest. I guess my point is, I don't think of the word "jerk" as being a bad thing.

But for seduction purposes, it is a useful term which we'll stick with. It seems like guys get called a jerk when they start to learn how to tease, and they say something off putting. Or, if they say something obnoxious seeming like they are trying to put someone down, which again, I believe comes from trying to tease. Like imagine a young brash dude saying "all girls are ho's". He's basically trying to assert his own value by putting someone else down. It's kind of like someone who is braggy, or a bully. It seems like they are trying to stand up for themselves, because they feel weak, but they do it by trying to knock other people down, or puff themselves up, and it can seem insecure.

As Chase has written about, the "jerk" is better than the nice guy, because they are standing up for themselves, being assertive, and generally taking action. It spikes emotions. People feel things around him. He is learning how to assert himself. But, again, it can seem insecure. And it is stage two of your development. You want to move on from jerk to being the "genuine man", as Chase says.

I am trying to assert myself by teasing and spiking emotions. And, it worked to a degree. She felt attracted, closed, and even wanted to see me again. However, she also felt that I was a big jerkish, or dickish. But not enough to totally blow her out. Thus, we see the balance you strike. You want to be assertive/dickish enough to make her attracted, but not so much that she goes into autorejection. Or, you have these relationships that are caustic, and you keep putting her down, and she fights back, and you have this cantankerous dynamic. That is also not good. Thus, you want to get to genuine. She was surprised when I started acting more "nice". To me, that was more normal. But, compared to the first time we met, it was different.

Let's look at exactly what jerk/dickish behavior looks like. For example, when talking, she asked a question like "what's your favorite food?". There are a few ways to answer. If you answer a dick answer, then the real answer, then that is one way. If you answer straightforwardly, that is a "nice" answer. I suppose even better is "cocky funny", where your first answer is something that is, well, cocky and funny. I thought I had some more specific words for examples, but I can't think of them right now. Anyway, this is an example of when you have the option to answer: 1. dickish 2. nice 3. genuine (which I believe is more along the lines of cocky-funny).

Now, let's look at "genuine". To me, this means making the answer fun, in a teasing way, about her, but also with a real answer. You're making the conversation fun and flirty, rather than factual question-and-answer. Like you're talking to a kid. If a kid asks "what's your favorite food?", you might answer "cow's toes", with a smirk or smile. "Nooooo" they say. They know you're joking. But you're making it fun, rather than factual.

This gets back to my original goal, which was to tease more. I think I did that on the date, enough, as we say. However, after sex, when we were lying together talking, I think I had one or two dickish answers. This might have come off as too much. It wasn't too too much that she auto-rejected since she met up again. But, it left a little bit of a dickish taste in her mouth. (pun intended). Thus, the goal is to tease and create tension that's also fun, rather than be a dick, necessarily.

This is what I'm working on. Teasing to create tension on the date. You want teasing to be personal, rather than general jokes. This is the difference between being an "entertainer", and being a fun, flirty, strong, teasing man she likes.

So when she asked pretty innocuous questions like "what is your favorite food?", if you answer a jerk answer, then it comes across like a jerk. She wasn't trying to get one over on you, she was just asking a basic question, trying to get to know you. So if answer like a jerk, it feels like you are punishing her for trying to get to know you. Which isn't good. Luckily I think I did this only once or twice, which seems to have led to the jerk impression. I don't try to give these jerk answers, but sometimes they just come out, lol. I guess I'm very nearly there to genuine man territory, hopefully. But I have to work on teasing more on dates.
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I have some questions.

I've been seeing two girls over the last few weeks. How do you successfully spend time with a girl after sex? For example, we meet up, get food, go back, have sex, then chill in bed for a bit. The other day when doing this, I got bored just lying there and talking, and then sort of snapped at her for asking a "boring" question. My question is, how can you successfully spend time with women (heck, or people in general), without it becoming boring for me.

One potential solution is to put on a TV show or sports game. That way, you both can watch passively, and not feel the need to entertain each other. Another potential solution is to kick her out before you get bored. To the first, this is decent, although I don't have a TV. But I could put something on on the computer to occupy us. For the second, I might start doing this to some extent. The thinking being, I want to spend quality time with people, rather than quantity. That is mostly true. Still, though, it might be nice to have some way to spend time with girls or people that doesn't put a lot of pressure on us both to entertain each other.

I like the TV option. It is easy enough to do. I don't watch TV otherwise, so putting on a show I didn't even think of. But I guess that is a good answer.

Another thing that I need to remind myself:

Breathe deeply. This gives you a grounded, masculine vibe. This is good. When you breathe shallower, you sound like a wimp. Not good. This is something to remember and use pretty much all the time. The trick is, sitting at a computer all day, it can harm your posture and then breathing. So remember to breath deep.
 

bobbyb112

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I have some thoughts.

The other day I saw the other girl I'm seeing. We made food, had sex, and hung out for a little bit. I made sure to breathe deeply, as well as have good posture. Breathing deeply helped a ton. It gives you a calm, grounded, masculine presence. Plus, it just feels good. Breathing deeply almost makes you feel stoned. You feel sort of euphoric, but in a healthy way. Breathing deeply may be my new superpower.

So it went a lot better than the day before that, when I met up with the other girl, and I wasn't grounded. So, breathe deeply.

As far as spending time together, we layed in bed and talked, mostly. It felt intimate, which is good. Watching TV is more of a crutch for feeling connected. Instead, breathe deeply and be present. This is what people really like. When you're present, in the moment, and it makes you feel very connected.

Also, I have another quality problem to think through:

I'm seeing these girls, but I worry that it's taking away my hunger to meet new women and develop my seduction skills more. That is, I don't want to "settle into something", and stop developing my pickup/seduction skills. On the other hand, by seeing them more, I am working on my "relationship" skills, or turning a girl from a one-time sex to a girlfriend. I like working on this skill, too, because relationship skills are important, and as Chase says, different from pickup/seduction. I can see the benefit in doing both.

On another note:

At some point, I wrote about how most of the girls I slept with didn't want to see me again. Someone in this journal said that he snuggled with girls after sex, and he never had a problem with them wanting to see him again. I tried this with the last 2 girls, and both stayed around. So, I guess it worked. In addition to all the other good stuff I've been working on, snuggling with them after sex seems like a good practice. I don't particularly enjoy it, but they seem to, so I might as well do it.
 

bobbyb112

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I went on a date the other day.

We met up at the bar. Talked. Vibed. Touched. Talked about somewhat sexual things. Got closer. Invited her home. Came back. Sat and drank wine with a show on. Kissed on and escalated. Started and stopped a handful of times, like 5 times. Eventually did more, and she said yes she would have sex. We went to go do the deep, however I couldn't get it up. We kissed and fooled around for a little while, then parted ways, saying we should meet up another time.

This was frustrating. Frustrating that my dick didn't want to behave. This has happened in the past, particularly when I sit at a desk all day and don't work out. That is basically what I did today. I did walk for about 2 hours. But no gym. Other days when I know I'm going on dates, I make sure to go to the gym and lift and do some cardio etc. But when I don't work out, even if I'm feeling good, my dick doesn't want to behave. It's funny how some days you're feeling good and horny as a teenager, and some days you aren't. But if you do the right things, you can have many more days of feeling horny, which is good.

Overall it's mostly under control. I know what I have to do. Still, though, it's happened a times seeing girls, so it's worth making sure to get right.

Waking up this morning, I didn't feel like being physically active or going on a date. But, as we saw, you have to be ready for gametime. And working out is one of the surest ways to make sure I can perform in the bedroom.

My "fundamentals" seemed to be working well enough. Straight back, slow deep breathing, smirking, teasing. All those are good things.

One thing that I want to keep an eye on is basically when the girl tries to grab your head, face, or even shoulders. You want to avoid that, because it is controlling behavior. The solution is to tell her that you prefer if she doesn't touch your head/face. Like it's one of your "boundaries". This girl did this a bit. It can seem good, like if she is pulling your head in to kiss. However, it is still controlling, which means she is in control, which means you aren't, which means she won't be as attracted. So that's why you need to avoid it. I didn't say anything tonight, but I want to make sure to do it in the future.

Another thing that was sort of "new" in this date was the starting and stopping escalation. That is, we started kissing, I went for her boob, she pulled back, I pulled back, I stopped. Watch TV, rinse, repeat. Kiss, eventually get boob, stop, repeat. I've never really done this stop-rinse-repeat. In the past I've basically done one small kiss, stop and talk, then kiss again, and escalate to sex. However, many times, the girl wasn't ready for more, and me continuing to escalate causes her to leave and not want to meet up again. I attribute this escalation's success to breathing deeply. Breathing deeply puts you in the moment, which also allows you to respond to her signals and back off. It also just made me able to think better. Thus, we could stop, chill and watch the show while still touching each other, and then start again in a few minutes. This is a minor breakthrough for me, when it comes to escalation. I attribute it to breathing. It goes to show, even if you don't want to go out to practice game, you will still probably learn something new.

It's funny and interesting how so many more things can fall into place when you do the fundamentals right. Like straight back, deep breaths, smirking, and teasing. Simple. Those are active fundamentals. But the fundamentals are what's most important. And of course the passive fundamentals, like muscle (I've been going to the gym the last 3 years or so and it shows), style (not fantastic but good enough), and grooming, and whatever other million things there are.
 
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bobbyb112

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Today I have a few thoughts.

I read Hector's article on getting more skilled as a seducer, and your results going down. Because you go from Nice guy -> Average boyfriend -> Player -> Genuine Man -> Lover of Women. What I'm confused about is, I'm frankly not sure which stage I'm in. Because in the article, I've had some of the symptoms of a player, and some of the other stages, too.

For example, girls having sex one time, but not wanting to meet up again. He says that is player. Player, he says, is when you tease a lot and can be a bit of a dick. You get blowback from women, them telling you to stop acting like a player. I, however, have never gotten this. Except, for that one girl a few weeks ago, who I made a point on the date to tease, then we had sex, and she hinted afterward that I might be a jerk. Frankly, though, this seems like the first time I've really teased (well), and thus, the first time of me going from "average boyfriend" to "player" territory.

But what about the prior sexual encounters I've had? Was I just getting laid as an average boyfriend, in those? It's hard to tell. What does "average boyfriend game" look like? All of my sexual encounters have been on the first or second date (usually the first, because until recently I had been burning the boats on an escalation attempt, and as a result, they wouldn't want to see me a second time regardless).

I suppose some player moves I've done include inviting girls back on the first date, and plowing ahead with escalation. However, like I said until recently, I wasn't even smirking or teasing. I feel like I've been acting like an average boyfriend, who invites girls home and sometimes gets laid. In other words, very basic move-things-forward game. But I feel like with that recent girl, that was perhaps the first time I ever felt like I acted like a "dick" or a "player".

Other symptoms of the player in the article, I haven't ever heard. I've never had a girl call me charming or smooth. Frankly, I try to be "genuine" in my dates. Although until recently, it has often come across as too nice.

This gets back a little bit to value/attainability and teasing and being a dick. That is, most of the dates I've gone on, it is with girls from apps, and they less attractive. Frankly, I think this has helped me work on my attainability, funnily enough. For example, I can talk with any girl (or person), and find the things I appreciate about them as individuals. Regardless of physical attractiveness. However, the girls I have gotten are lower quality. So maybe I worked on raising attainability too much, but didn't work on spiking or increasing attraction.

This is funny, because usually, I believe Chase says, they make the opposite mistake. They work on their value, then become high-value. Then they come across as unattainable to girls, who autoreject because the guy is coming across as TOO high-value, even if the girl is attractive. I have the opposite problem. I know I am too high-value for the girls I'm meeting, so I worked on being more attainable. However, when I meet girlfriend-quality girls (which I seldom do), my value is not high enough, or I come across as TOO attainable.

So it really comes down to calibration. With the girl from the other week that I teased more than usual, it was perhaps slightly more teasing than she could handle, and so I come across as a player. In fact, even though we've seen each other 3 times having sex each time, she still seems to be cagey about me. Which indicates symptom of the player.

Where does this leave us? I still want to work on using my teasing. But, like spice, you don't want a fist full of it. Just a sprinkle. In other words, I don't have to "spike value" too much. That is overdoing it. But some, is probably needed. It's really a balance. Teasing just enough, and being attainable the right amount. Doesn't that sound pretty genuine? You don't want to have a conversation full of just ragging on the other person, or teasing them. You want to find out interesting things about them, and discover something new. All things are a balance. And that is probably what the genuine man approach is all about.

However, I'm still curious, what does a player look like? I haven't observed it. I don't know any guys who are players. I haven't seen them in real life. What does a player look like? Genuinely curious. Moreover, what are the signals and signs and feedback girls are giving me? That is what I am trying to tune into, to see where I need to improve. As Chase has written about, girls give you the feedback needed about where you need to improve.

To try to put numbers on it, he says the player vibes are often in the 10-50 lays range for guys, and some guys never grow out of it. I am firmly in the middle of that range. But, like I have said, until recently, I've felt like my conversations were in the average boyfriend or (unfortunately) the nice guy range, rather than player. Maybe I am just entering my player stage. Maybe that's where I'm headed, now that I know the power of teasing, and can combine it with a willingness to move things ahead and make moves. Look out world.

I wonder what smooth looks like. That is, I try not to do things on dates solely for their seductive value. To reverse that question, how do I seduce a girl and make her attracted? Now there is the big question.
 

bobbyb112

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The other day I had a date.

She had a weird schedule with work, so we met at noon during the day in the middle of the week. We met in front of a coffee shop. It was really busy, so I said let's check out this other one. We went, got iced tea. Drank it. I moved us to a park nearby, outside. From there, I suggested watching a show at my place. She was hesitant, so I said let's go, and kind of just took her hand. We went to my place. Sat. Pulled her close. Kissed. We kissed for a while, with me escalating in various ways. After a while the shirt came off, then the pants, then to my bedroom. We kissed more and I used my fingers, but she said she didn't want to have sex. We did this for a while, then we both said we had to get back to work and doing things. She called an uber and left.

What worked was that I vibed, deep diving. Plus teasing her, playfully. And touching, touching her knee and holding hands at times, and pulling her close. Leading, in that she was hesitant about going back, but I said let's go. One thing that wasn't great was that I couldn't get hard. I did eventually, with help from her, but I couldn't have had good sex even if she wanted to. I will discuss this issue later.

She was "new to town", having only been in the country for 1-2 months. Girls that are new to town are almost always more open to something happening. Same with travelers and tourists. So that helped for sure.

Towards the end, like after we were done fooling around and before she left, I tried to be more "nice". I complimented her on a hobby she had told me about before. I said I enjoyed spending time with her. She left, and texted me when she got home, and said she enjoyed meeting me, and I texted back me as well. During this time, I was trying to be more "authentic", rather than player-y. For example, maybe she would look at my pushing for sex as too player-y, so I wanted to balance that with some connection or friendliness. I don't think I teased her at all in the time from when we stopped fooling around to when she left.

This is the eternal balance between attraction and comfort. Maybe I should have thrown a tease in there anyway, to keep her on her toes, and intrigued to meet up again. It's hard to know how much to tease or not, and I'm still figuring that out. As I discussed in my last post, I want to be the "authentic" man, instead of "normal boyfriend" or "player". I'm not sure if I succeeded.

I followed up a day later to see if she wanted to grab dinner sometime, but she hasn't responded yet. I'm not sure what will happen there. If I had to guess, I would say she will end up deciding no. But we'll see. One part of my game that I want to work on, or at least get some opinions about, is texting after the first date, whether you slept together or not, to meet up again. I don't want to overthink it, but on the other hand if I'm doing anything that's losing girls here I want to change it.

I'm still playing the line between teasing too much and too little. I suppose I got the mix right in this one, because of the result. But still, teasing is a big part of what I'm working on. Heck, flirting too. I am not as good as I want to be at flirting. But, I also don't want to come across as unattainable. I guess that is whole point of Chase's "VAC" model. Value, attainability, and compliance(?). For me, I'm working on spiking emotions and being sexy and pressing buttons and teasing. Like I said in the last post, maybe I am just coming into my own "player" vibe stage. We'll see.

As far as my dick not working, it has happened from time to time. There are a few factors that go into it. One is if I've been sitting all day at a computer. If I do that, I find that the problem is more likely to happen. The solution is to walk a lot during the day, and workout, going to the gym, doing air squats, things like that. Another is watching porn. Unfortunately, I still do this from time to time. Then, for a few days after, I don't get erections naturally as easily. This is a known problem. I need to not watch porn.

My diet is pretty on-point, and I don't think there's much to improve there. I eat plenty of meat, saturated fats, and healthy fats. One thing that helps is long, vigorous physical activity, like playing sports or hiking for multiple hours. Probably just because it gets you blood flowing, and you out of your head and into your body.

This is all stuff to remember. Physical activity, and not watching porn. I could have 2 more lays possibly, if I had gotten this right!

Flirting and teasing are the biggest things on my work on list. Fanning the flames of sexual attraction.
 

bobbyb112

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Little different thing I wanted to write about today.

With all the seduction/pickup/dating stuff I've been doing, it's odd because I can't talk about it with basically anyone in my real life. My best friends aren't into it, I can't talk about it with my parents or family, or at work. So it's just funny. I guess I'm talking about it here now because there's nowhere else I can do it. I guess I need to make some new wingman and pickup friends in real life, if I want to talk about it.
 

bobbyb112

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I had a funny interaction with a girl yesterday.

With this girl, we had actually went on a date and had sex almost 2 years ago. She seemed very insecure, and basically talked the whole time, qualifying herself. I was smart enough to just shut up and let her talk. I asked her back and she went, and we had sex. The morning after she left, she texted a long text saying how I was a jerk for not texting to make sure she got home. At that point, I was like, okay crazy person, I'm the jerk, see ya. I didn't want to deal with all her BS.

Fast forward to earlier this week. We matched on an app again, and she said hey. We talked a little and I said we should get a bite and catch up. She said sure. We called and talked last night, for like 20 minutes. She was similarly qualifying herself. She sent a picture of her in a bikini. I teased her by saying her hamper was messy and she needed to clean it up. She was like yeah lol. I ended the conversation because I didn't want to talk forever on the phone. I texted as we had agreed to figure out a day to get a bite to eat, and I went to sleep. She responded saying a few days. Then she texted again 15 minutes later, saying how she didn't think we were compatible the first time, and me saying the hamper thing was weird, and that she didn't think we should meet up.

Again, this BS. She's funny, because she seems to have very low self-esteem, even though she is attractive. She also talked a bit about her medical conditions (not mental health). I'm like, cool, but I really don't need to know this, and it's kind of weird you're telling me. Moreover it is just not fun conversation topics. Normal people don't talk all about their medical conditions. Anyway, like the first time we met, this girl is funny. She will talk and talk and I can't get a word in edgewise, but she is qualifying herself the whole time so that is good. Then I do one tease over the phone, and that somehow sets her off. Or like the first time, the little thing of not responding to her text about getting home safely. I can't keep up with this BS, especially not-in-person BS.

Backing up, the reason I answered her phone call was because she wasn't receiving my texts for some reason (I suspect it's because she blocked my number after the first time, but it might have also been just marked as spam). So we talked and made sure she was getting my texts. But then we got into conversation, and it went longer than I would have wanted. When you go 20 minutes, you have more of a chance to say something that will lower your chances rather than raise them (like teasing about a laundry hamper). So, I could have used a time-frame, like I'm glad we connected I only have a few minutes though. Then chat, and say let's find a time looking forward to seeing you, and hang up. Too long on the phone is not beneficial.

Also, it's funny because she is "attractive". Maybe this is just the high-maintenance that comes with attractive girls. However, I can't babysit somebody's feelings not in person. It's funny though. What would she expect me to do or say that would make it good for her? Probably nothing. Which basically comes out in what she says. What's funny is that we got together the first time. I remember setting up the date then, I think she called then, and maybe I didn't answer. Which was good, because it kept her needing to see me in person to get the validation. Moreover, I couldn't mess it up over the phone beforehand. Then, on the date, I basically let her talk the whole time, then just asked her home.

In other words, this is a hot-crazy chick. I want to text her and tell her to calm the eff down or be normal or something along those lines. But I know that is not a good idea, so I won't do it. But seriously, there are some people, who you want to shake and be like "you are perfectly fine, be normal". But, then again, if she was normal, she wouldn't be a hot girl on a dating app, lol.

I also find it funny, that as I've written about, my teasing ability has increased lately, and I've sort of been working on that. When I teased her about the messy hamper after she sent a bikini pic, I messed up in this way, though: I first said "is that a dirty hamper behind you? Gotta clean that up" "Haha, you're a jerk (playful tone, I forget the exact words)". Then, I took it too far, because I thought to myself oh that landed, it was the right thing, I should do more. So I kept going with it like "haha yeah it's so messy, gotta put those clothes in the hamper" "jeez, I show you a picture of me half-naked and all you can talk about is the hamper" "haha, I'm just teasing". I went too far. It triggered, if slightly, her guard to come up, like I was doing a bit.

This is "jerk" behavior. Teasing a girl too much. It went past her self-esteem threshold, and she reacted badly. This is great. I'm finally figuring out "game", or how to tease. And, I took it too far, which means I can dial it back, and find a good spot. That is one reason I tried to make sure to tease this time. Last time, in my earlier seduction days, I didn't tease as much. On our first date, I just let her talk basically the whole time. This is good, but I also didn't challenge her at all, which isn't so good. Moreover, I want to have a fun interaction, by teasing at least a little bit. It wasn't even playful last time. I want it to be playful overall.

But the flip side is, if your teasing triggers her guard to come up, then it is too much. Any teasing would have been too much, so none is the answer. Even in our conversation last night, I might have jokes to teased too much. I joked a bit about some things she told me. So too much was just too much teasing. Especially after she qualified herself by sending me the pictures. Then again, if it was nudes, that is more a "test", where she is testing you to see if you will react weirdly. That is where commenting on something in the background is probably better, because it is showing you're non-needy and not bowled over by seeing her naked. But a bikini, that is for public consumption, so it not as much of a test. Unless she presents it that way. But it is less of a test than a nude.

As far as teasing and being a jerk versus being a genuine man, I'm still feeling that out. I can tease alright, but too much and it seems like it's too much, apparently. Another aspect is talking and conversing. Some girls will talk and talk. Even if they are qualifying themselves, what you want to do is ask a qualifying question to let her go off of. Then, when she qualifies herself and talks about it, she is complying and investing. You have to ask, though, because then it sets her up as qualifying herself, rather than just talking. This is how you can use her talkiness to your advantage. Just ask qualifying questions, and let her answer.

Another lesson is to not take calls from girls before meeting up, if there wasn't a reason for it previously. Don't talk for a long time on the phone beforehand, because that ruins the intrigue, and gives her a chance to screen you out. It can be useful if your initial interaction wasn't substantive enough. But if she's already on the hook, then it usually hurts.

I think it's funny, though, because in all the interactions with this girl, I feel like a nice-guy, and she feels like I'm a jerk. The first time we met, she talked and talked at me about all this stuff, and I just listened. I didn't "game", and was kind of just nice, while moving it ahead. Then, she felt "used" afterwards, feeling like I was a jerk. This time, on the phone, I also felt like a nice-guy, just listening to her. Then she feels like I'm a "jerk". It's funny the mismatch.

Maybe, though, it is Hector's article of moving from jerk to genuine man. In that shift, you have to add in elements of the nice-guy back in. Like listening, teasing less, and the like. That is supposed to work better for more attractive girls, because if you over-game it feels weird or is just over-gaming. I'm up for doing that. I just haven't gotten good at "gaming" yet. Which is why I'm working on teasing. However, I can also feel the teasing lead to negative reactions, from doing it too much. Some is good, more is not better. The situation often does not call for more and more teasing. Keep it light, but don't rag on her, unless she has that personality. Different girls can take different amounts of ragging and teasing. Calibrate it.

You just have to focus on the girl, and keep your attention on her, to see what she needs in that moment. Whether it is more attraction/teasing, or connection/deep diving, or momentum/moving it forward, or other things.

Another note, it is good to go after girls that you find attractive, or would be excited to go out with. Reason being, otherwise you might pull your punches, and not put in the concentration needed to close the deal. For example with this girl, I wasn't thrilled about the idea of meeting up with her again. For all the reasons described above. She felt like a "broken" person, and I didn't want to deal with that more. But, she was attractive, and I would have been open to sleeping with her again. Or just general practice, to learn. However, the more excited you are to see her, the more concentration you will put in to do the right things and whatnot. So that is a reason to go after girls you find attractive or otherwise excited to meet up with.
 

bobbyb112

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Lately I've been seeing a few girls.

One girl I've seen about 10 times, over the last 2 months or so. Roughly once a week. This is the longest I've ever seen a woman in a sexual relationship, so it is gratifying to me to do it. That is good. On the other hand, I don't think I want to make her a girlfriend/more. It is not my intention to turn her into a girlfriend. However, I still want to see her, at least for a bit.

I can see why Chase says he stopped doing FWB. In the beginning, I was sort of running it like I was trying to turn it into a girlfriend situation, but after 3 months or so. I was doing this mainly for the practice, since I have never converted a girl to girlfriend. The trouble is, we're now 2 months in, and I'm like I don't want her to be a girlfriend. So I feel like I should end it, for her sake. On the other hand, if I want "casual" and she is fine with that (at least for now), then might as well keep going with it. On the other hand, that sort of blunts my willingness to go find other girls that I like better.

I have to read some articles on FWB, casual, and turning girls into girlfriends. Before this, the most I had seen a girl was like 6/7 times, but that fizzled out in much of a similar way. A few others, we slept together 3 times, then it fizzled or they didn't want to meet up anymore. So I am glad that this has gone longer. I like getting experience at things. However this one might have run it's natural course.

It makes me wonder how to run a rotation. Or, with a rotation, is the idea that they are all FWBs? Or is it that they are your girlfriends, and are just okay with you having multiple girlfriends? I need to read up on this more. I guess if they are you "girlfriend", but you just have multiple girlfriends, and everyone was okay with that, then that could be good. They are happy because they have the status of being girlfriend. But you have the freedom to see multiple. I need to read up on how this would work.

Okay I just read a few of the FWB articles.

One is the "8 rules for FWBs". One rule that I have been breaking is going out to dinner. Each time we meet up, we usually get some food first. Reason being is, she lives like 40 minutes away, and comes to me (or vice versa) after work. So we are both hungry. In an ideal world we would not do this. Maybe I will try to cut it out. I can just say I'm going to eat beforehand why don't you do the same. It might not be a big deal to change up the rhythm, it is just the rhythm that we fell into at the outset. It's good that I know it now, so I can avoid it in the future. Honestly, too, not eating together will be good because it will give more time. We end up spending say 3 hours together when we see each other, which just takes a lot of time out of the day. With doing less, it will make it easier for me. Although much time will still be spent on driving. But that is unavoidable.

Other than that, I have been following the rules. Have sex every time you meet up, see each other once per week not more, don't let her sleep over, don't do the other couple-y stuff, etc.

One rule that I'm facing with a new girl is having a consistent schedule. That is, we didn't see each other for 2 weeks, then saw each other, now I'm planning on seeing her after 4 days, because then I'm traveling for a week and a half so we won't see each other. Chase says you don't want to see each other multiple times in a week even if you balance it out with not seeing each other for 2 weeks afterwards, because that just makes her think about you more. I'm not sure if I want to avoid seeing her, though, again this week before traveling or not. Should I break Chase's rule? Or do that, then just seek her in 2 weeks when I get back? Unsure.

I also read the article "4 stages of FWB". This has definitely been consistent with this girl I have been seeing for 2 months. The timeline is matching up pretty well, as he says that most FWB last for 2-4 months, although can extend to 6-9 months if the value discrepancy is high. He also says that guys often worry when it starts to fizzle, but that should just be expected as the normal lifecycle of the FWB. I can see this. I am sort of questioning why it is going the way that it is, but it is totally normal for this type of situation.
 
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bobbyb112

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95
The other night I had a date.

We went to the bar and got a drink. She was cool, as in seems like she had partied a lot when she was younger. But was attractive. We talked. We went and walked and then sat down. We said let's get in from the bugs, and went to mine. But she said she wouldn't stay long. She sat down and we talked some more. I tried to pull her in, but she didn't come, which is pretty much a red light for seduction. I guess here I could have pulled harder and "manhandle kissed" her. But she didn't seem into it, and so I didn't want to push it. She said she had to go, so I showed her out.

I just read Chase's article "When Girls Won't Sleep with You at Your Place". I think a few of the reasons applied to me. First is her "not liking you like that." He says this can come from now showing enough sexual intent. I definitely need to do this more. I need to touch more, too, to show intent. At the bar, I didn't touch her enough, to polarize and see if she was in or out.

For the second section, "unresolved objections," I don't think I have every gotten these. That is, a girl has never verbalized reasons why she didn't want to have sex while at my place. Usually they just say they have to leave. No explanation. I guess maybe once a girl might have said something like "it's too soon" or "it's too fast for me", but I can't remember any times. I will have to look out for these. Usually they just say they have to leave.

The third is "she isn't aroused enough." This is where I need work. Chase mentions "mostly had chummy-but-asexual conversation with and touched very little." This basically describes my interactions on these dates, many times. I don't get touchy and sexual enough. Doing this would greatly increase my home-to-lay conversion rate. I suppose it might decrease my bar-to-home conversion rate. But you're not optimizing for girls home, you're optimizing for sleeping with girls. So sexualize on the date.

Going back to my fundamentals, I felt I somewhat had a straight back, but it wasn't perfect. I sort of forgot about it. I have to remember to do it next time. That helps you dial in the teasing, which I could have improved on. The smirk, I smirked alright, but it doesn't have the full power, if you don't have a straight back. So get a straight back.

Also, my energy was a bit off and I didn't "want it" enough. I suppose this is something to check in with yourself before the date. Do you "want it?" or not? Decide beforehand, then do what has to be done to make it happen. Don't go into it like "I'll see what happens." That is not the right intention. Decide you want it first. Then, straight back, tease, get close, touch. Simple.

On a different note...

I have been seeing 2 girls once every week or two over the last few months. It is cool because it is basically the longest I have ever seen a woman. However, neither excites me much, and I feel like I might be wasting my time by continuing to see them. It might be blunting my desire to go on dates with new girls, and continue working on my skills. On the other hand, I suppose I am working on my "relationship" type skills. But still, if you aren't practicing relationship skills on a girl you are really attracted to, is it real practice? I don't know.
 

Bob Z

Space Monkey
space monkey
Joined
Jun 7, 2024
Messages
73
Is this a date/your dates generally from online, social circle or cold approach?
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I just read Chase's article "Secrets to Getting Girls: Attraction > Connection" and want to think through it.

The article talks about how you want there to be attraction before you go into connection (deep diving), because if there isn't, then your connection will be interpreted as platonic connection and it won't help for sleeping together. This makes sense, as it's sort of establishing "sexual premise or sexual attraction", before trying to connect. As Chase also says, the connection you kind of view as a reward for her for investing or showing interest. Thus, you don't want to jump right into connection, because she won't be on board with the sexual/attraction frame or premise.

I have definitely felt this difference in my own dates. Sometimes, the girl shows up, and either right off the bat, or in the first few minutes, she seems to be paying you a lot of attention and making herself available and helpful. In other words, showing attraction. You sort of feel that, then go into the connection part, and it works, because any of that connection is in the context of her being attracted to you, and you sort of judge her or evaluating her as a potential mate. Then she further invests in the conversation, qualifying herself to you, etc.

On the flip side, sometimes I have met up with the girl for the date, and we sit down, and I just go into connection. The vibe is more polite (read: platonic), and she goes along with it, but it feels more like two chums chatting, rather than a man and woman evaluating each other for having sex. Then, as the date goes on, you might invite her back to your place. She might come, but say things like "I can't stay long". Or, walk in, and say "oh how did you find this place? How much do you pay for rent?". Very platonic stuff. "Do you work from home?". More platonic chatting. You go to make a move, and she says "I have to go", and leaves.

Thus, I have felt the difference in these situations in terms of dates I have gone on. Sometimes the attraction gets established well before we sit down and start connecting, and sometimes it doesn't. And this leads to how the dates ends up later on. I can think of a few times right off the top of my head when the attraction happened before sitting down, and then the date goes along, and she ends up being attracted and whatnot and we got together. 3 off the top of my head. Then other dates, where we kind of just go sit down, and start to talk, but the attraction doesn't really get established beforehand, and it feels platonic afterwards, or forced.

This goes along with the piece of seduction tech I have written about before in these journals, moving from the place you meet to the bar where you sit down to talk. That is, I have noticed that a number of times, I have met in on place (say in front of X bar), then say "Oh, actually there's a place Y bar I want to try, let's go there." We walk that 5 minutes to the new place. But during that time, it gives me a chance to flirt with her and tease her. So that when we sit down, there is attraction established.

This hasn't worked every time, it's just interesting that that piece of tech was trying to accomplish what Chase talks about in this article. He is spot on. Note that most of my dates come from apps, where we basically do exactly what he outlines for early stages of the interaction, in online form. Strong first impression ideally initla signs of attraction. A little back-and-forth some similarity superficial connection. Go for date, then contact close number. Texting for logistics out on date. Then once you are either on a date or isolation on the pickup, with sufficient attraction/compliance, then you can finally start building a decent, solid, deep connection with her. As Chase says.

I guess Chase is saying, though, not to deep dive/connection until you are in the date/isolation spot. Thus, if she meets up with you at a bar from an app, then that is enough compliance/attraction to start connecting. According to that, though, I have had enough to start connecting, since all these girls were out on the date. Hmm. Maybe, though, if I went for a fast number/date proposal on the app, maybe she would come out but still slightly more interaction in person would be needed to establish premise/attraction. Thus, a minute or two of further compliance/ flirting/ attraction building before the connection part of the date starts, might be a useful thing. On the flip side, as they say, if a girl is out on a date with you, you can and should assume she is attracted and wants you to win and make it happen. From there it is up to your date skills.

A lot of this ties back to something I've been working on during dates more, too, which is teasing and flirting, rather than just connecting and deep diving. Keeping it fun, and teasing her. Like I've written about before, I'm on my "player" arch, where I have to tease and flirt more, to create attraction, because that is what I feel I am lacking. Much of my success so far, it feels like, is due to luck, and sexualizing has been a weak suit. So teasing and sexualizing seem like they are important for me to work on.

Another way to think about this is to turn on the sexual "rizz," as the kids would say.

I will say, though, that the point of Chase's article seems to be "don't start connecting or deep diving until you are seated at the date/isolation location." Luckily, I don't think I have ever done that. You have to get enough initial compliance/ interest/ attraction before you start deep diving. You don't start doing it right off the bat, like just standing up at a bar or on the street or whatever. That is for very light, superficial connection, and strong first impression and intent, or teasing, flirting, or playful banter. Not deep diving. Save that for the date.

But I probably should focus a little more on teasing upon initially meeting for the date, if she is coming from an app. The point here is that the initial meeting is important, and hitting those beats correctly are important for setting up the rest of the date. So, how can you hit this part correctly? A few things. One is using the hand clasp upon meeting. This gives it a more sexual/romantic feeling. Another might be, just wait a moment when you first see each other, pausing to say hello, before going into the bar. Chat a second on the sidewalk, before going inside. This paces this better, because you aren't rushing to go inside, nor "assuming" that she will go inside, even though you were meeting up for a drink. In other words, you aren't rushing or assuming, while still leading. That way, too, when you do go inside, you can suggest it, or she can, and it feels like more compliance, or her investing by suggesting it. It feels like things are progressing, because it is one small intermediate step, which feels like more compliance.

On a different note...

With the girl from the last post, I texted her two days after the first to see if she wanted to meet up again for some food. As predicted, she said she wasn't interested. I am kicking myself, because she definitely showed signs of attraction in the beginning of the first date. But my game was rusty and my energy was off for other reasons, so it didn't end up going well. But anyway, that's how it goes. On to the next one!
 
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bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I went on a date with a girl the other night.

We met on an app. We met up at a bar for a drink. I actually canceled on her the first night we were going to meet up, without giving a reason. She texted back saying bummer, but if you'd like to find another time I would still like to meet up. So we found another day during the week. She also drove about an hour from where she lived, which she told me. We met up and got a drink at the bar. Talked. Vibed. I tried to use my "mysterious" voice, which creates more intrigue and mystery. This seemed to work. We talked a bit, and she invested plenty. She even played with her hair once or twice.

I invited her back to mine for some wine when she was about done with her drink. It had been about 45 minutes. We went back. Did things. I kissed her. Pulled back. Then kissed her again, and closed the deal.

This one was pretty straightforward, although I was working on some things that I believe helped. But first, beforehand, all the positive signals were there. Offered to find another time, after I canceled an hour before we were supposed to meet the first time without a reason, that is her taking the initiative. Positive signals. Second, her driving an hour, positive signals. Third, she said she was basically free any day of the week when we were scheduling the second time, which is positive. In other words, in all these logistical things, she was making herself very available, all indicating high interest. So going into it, I knew that it was mine to lose, shall we say. She made it rather clear, before even meeting up, how interested she was.

On the date, I used a more mysterious tone. This is something I have done before, and it has worked. For me, it feels like curling the corners of my mouth, almost having "latin twinge" in the voice, and then talking. This seems to give the voice a low-key, mysterious, intriguing, sexy feeling. This is good, because these are all positive things for seduction. Doing this, the conversation flowed well enough, and she went along with all my adventure and spontaneous frames. If nothing else because that's what she wanted too: adventure. But point being, I didn't fumble the bag.

All this led to a pretty smooth interaction, and back to my place, and closing the deal. Like I said, going in, this one was mine to lose. But putting it away, to use a sports analogy, felt good. It's nice when things go well, the game is slowing down some, and you put away the open shot. That is what was good about this interaction.

I also at times remembered to have a straight back. This is definitely important, from a fundamentals perspective. The latin twinge, mysterious voice. Teasing, although I didn't go over the top with this, partly because she made fun of herself some, already playing into the frame I guess. But these fundamentals were all there, and seemed to be the right way to do things.

Things I want to improve:
- Clothing: I usually wear a t-shirt along with a jacket (that I take off when we get there) for first dates. Should I wear a nicer shirt of some sort?
- Seeding the pull: I don't really seed the pull in any manner. Instead, when the time is there, I just say I have some wine at my place want to get a drink there? That has worked so far, in that any sort of leadership will get some results. But it could be improved. I suppose by seeding maybe about pictures of a trip, something cool you have like a pool table. I'm not sure what I have cool in my place, but maybe I need to get something cool in order to use it for pulling. I will have to look into this more.
- Touching: I touched some, touching her leg and arm next to me at the bar. But even with her body language, it was not super opened up to me. Rather, she was facing forward, with arms and legs crossed. This seems more like a function of the seating at the bar, because those seats are not super comfortable. But touch is something overall that I am working on, in addition to sexualizing. I actually used "adventure" and "spontaneous" frames somewhat well in this conversation, so that is cool.
 

bobbyb112

Tool-Bearing Hominid
Tool-Bearing Hominid
Joined
Nov 5, 2017
Messages
95
I have a question.

When you start seeing a new girl, what do you say or do to try to turn her into a "regular"? For example, maybe after the third time you see her, you say "I'd like to keep seeing you casually." Then, she can reject that if she wants. But it is saying what you want, for purposes of expectations. Another question is how do you set the expectation that you see each other every 7-10 days? For example, sometimes with girls, we get together and have sex, and have seen each other for more than 3 times, but there still is no real "cadence" or regularity or expectation of when we will see each other again. So I end up texting a few days after seeing her when she is free again next few days. The point is, is there a way I can set the expectations that we see each other regularly, and at a cadence of about 7-10 days? I don't like having it be so ad-hoc as to when we see each other next, and guessing as to whether she will even want to meet up again.
 
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