Journal

[KJ Francis]

I have a question.

When you start seeing a new girl, what do you say or do to try to turn her into a "regular"? For example, maybe after the third time you see her, you say "I'd like to keep seeing you casually." Then, she can reject that if she wants. But it is saying what you want, for purposes of expectations. Another question is how do you set the expectation that you see each other every 7-10 days? For example, sometimes with girls, we get together and have sex, and have seen each other for more than 3 times, but there still is no real "cadence" or regularity or expectation of when we will see each other again. So I end up texting a few days after seeing her when she is free again next few days. The point is, is there a way I can set the expectations that we see each other regularly, and at a cadence of about 7-10 days? I don't like having it be so ad-hoc as to when we see each other next, and guessing as to whether she will even want to meet up again.

Don't say anything. Give her orgasms and remain non needy. She will chase you for more time together. If not, you reach out at your preferred cadence. If she does, you just slow her down by being a little unavailable. This is scarcity and implied preelection that will make her more horny.

You will know it's working when you are getting her reaching out flirty and sexual and you are putting your phone down because you are too busy.

 

[bobbyb112]

Don't say anything. Give her orgasms and remain non needy. She will chase you for more time together. If not, you reach out at your preferred cadence. If she does, you just slow her down by being a little unavailable. This is scarcity and implied preelection that will make her more horny.

You will know it's working when you are getting her reaching out flirty and sexual and you are putting your phone down because you are too busy.

It's all about the orgasms, baby! That makes sense. WIth one girl, she seems to enjoy the sex we have, and she does reach out and want to meet consistently. With another girl, it seems like the sex is always less enjoyable for both of us, and she is going cold and probably won't meet up again. Although with her one time, I did sort of soft flake on her, then she reached out a week or two later wanting to meet up and was flirty and sexual. But again, maybe the sex just isn't good enough with her overall for her to want to keep meeting up. With another girl in the past, again the sex was okay, but not great, and she didn't want to meet up too much.

But I guess this all does come back to orgasms and good sex. Honestly, though, I'm still not sure to give girls orgasms consistently, other than just trying a bunch of things and hoping something works. How do you give a girl orgasms?

 

[KJ Francis]

It's all about the orgasms, baby! That makes sense. WIth one girl, she seems to enjoy the sex we have, and she does reach out and want to meet consistently. With another girl, it seems like the sex is always less enjoyable for both of us, and she is going cold and probably won't meet up again. Although with her one time, I did sort of soft flake on her, then she reached out a week or two later wanting to meet up and was flirty and sexual. But again, maybe the sex just isn't good enough with her overall for her to want to keep meeting up. With another girl in the past, again the sex was okay, but not great, and she didn't want to meet up too much.

But I guess this all does come back to orgasms and good sex. Honestly, though, I'm still not sure to give girls orgasms consistently, other than just trying a bunch of things and hoping something works. How do you give a girl orgasms?

Fuck hard with steady rhythm. There's a Chase article on "adapted missionary" for clit and skin contact.

Daniel Rose book Sex God Method (good reminder I need to finish reading)

And David Shade books I have skimmed a little and definitely need to get back to.

Orgasms are more than just enjoyment. I think it is a kickstarter for major chemical release in the brain. I am no pro yet. If she orgasms, give lots of skin contact after for oxytocin (pair bond chemical)

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date the other day.

We met on an app. I was pretty rusty, because I haven't gone on a date in a few weeks. That being said, it was alright. We talked a bunch. She had enough life experiences to talk about stuff. She had socialized enough to be able to have conversations and do it somewhat well. I held the frame, and got her talking about stuff. I moved her, first from the coffee shop to the park, to another park. I invited her back to watch a movie, but she declined and said she had to meet her friends in 30 minutes. We sat and talked more.

I'm not sure what I am missing. Should I tease more? I'm hesitant to tease too much more, because I might come across as an asshole. But I guess if you don't, then you come across as a nice guy friend. How much is enough? Like, once in the beginning to set the frame, and get her out of her head and into the conversation? I could even tease more throughout, but again, I have done that in the past, and the girl might sleep with me, but she thinks I am an asshole and doesn't want to see me again and be in auto rejection.

I felt like we had decent conversation. Talking about stuff, having her tell me about her, then relating talking about myself. I'm realize that if I don't put more detail in these field reports, then it's hard to give good feedback. Maybe I will try to go detail by detail at some point. For now, I like the broad strokes, because I don't want to get into analysis paralysis.

Instead, I just need to practice more. Go out more. Approach during the day more. All this will help me practice my vibe and conversation skills, and sexualizing skills.

I feel like my voice could have been better. Talking louder, while still having it be deep and purring. I was too quite, although it still was resonant. Voice is important. Also my posture, at times I slumped. Improving that would probably help. I'm excited to just practice more. When you're doing it all the time, you learn faster, get in flow, and can do it better. In other words, just get better.

Another thing to keep an eye on, I'm not sure if I act different with more attractive girls. The scale should really just be yes I'm attracted or no I'm not. But this girl was younger and more attractive than others I have gone on dates with. Although she had a ton of makeup on, which I don't love. Can we just tell women to wear less makeup? Anyway, I'm not sure if I acted differently or not. The problem is, with less attractive and older girls, they just say yes more often. I don't feel like it's anything I do. They just say yes to going back or whatever more often. I guess I need to recognize if I'm doing anything different with different girls, and if so, then treat them the same.

 

[bobbyb112]

I face a new challenge.

A girl I'm seeing asked that I not see or talk to other women. We've been seeing each other about once a week for about 4 months. What do I do?

Backing up to the bigger picture. Chase's articles have said that in an early relationship, around 3-6 months is when you "let" her become your girlfriend. If you're trying to keep it FWB, then the 3-6 month mark is usually when it tends to fall apart, and you split ways. I know that Chase has said he does only ONS or girlfriend set ups, and not FWB, since they waste time. But that his early process for making her a girlfriend looks 95% like the FWB set up does.

I have been running this pretty casual, saying I want to keep it casual until maybe later. We don't see each other too frequently, which is good for keeping it casual. She has asked a "where is this going?" question before, and I said I want to keep it casual.

Now, I'm not sure what to do, for two reasons. First, I'm not sure if I want to let her become a girlfriend or not. Second, if I did want her as a girlfriend, how would I play it to "keep my dating options," and maintain attraction, a la this article from Chase: https://www.girlschase.com/content/commitment-points-why-you-must-avoid

From that article, it seems like you should never "commit" to saying you won't sleep with or talk to other girls. This way, you can keep your game sharp, and your options open, which maintains the girls' attraction for you. So what is the right set up here, assuming you did want her to be your girlfriend? Do you say "you can be my girlfriend, but I'm not going to say that I won't sleep with other girls"? What is the right thing that I should want here?

I read the article https://www.girlschase.com/content/how-start-relationship-new-girlfriend. There were a few interesting points to reflect on:

- It said how most guys don't know what they want from a relationship, or have a goal for it. You want to have a goal, so you can know what you want from it, and if that doesn't give her what she wants, then let her go. Chase also says how as a less experienced dater, you might just have a relationship for the purpose of getting more experience having a relationship. Good to know I'm only of average cluelessness at the moment. For this "relationship", it would be to have experience with dating in general, plus having a casual sex partner. Fair enough. But it might not align with her goals or not. We have to have that conversation. Don't not give her what she needs but try to hang on. Let her go, if you don't want to give her what she needs.
- Frontloading the relationship excitement. I didn't really do this here, for the most part, which is good. Except, we did get (low cost) dinner each time we met up, and then walked around. This is relatively low-excitement, as far as dating goes. But Chase says he just has her come over, maybe watch a movie, maybe eat some dinner, and have sex. So for next relationship, I can lower it to just that, too.
- There are 2 "lines" you'll cross at which you can ramp things up in a relationship: 90 days (3 months) and 2 years. I guess I am at the 90 day mark. Although I don't want to ramp things up, I want to keep them where they are. I don't want to see her more than once a week. Are there girls you would want to see more than once a week?
- Texting: I don't text too much in the beginning. I haven't done this, as I don't like texting much. So that was good.
- Dating the right girl: Here is where I am potentially slipping up. When you're on the fence with a girl, but lack an abundance mentality enough to walk away.
- Even if she's perfect, keep your options open: This is one I'm curious about, because do you give her exclusivity if she asks for it? How do you keep your options open in that case? He lists a number of different things, including actually sleeping with other girls of similar quality, running seduction taking girl up to the point of sex but not having sex to prove you can still do it, and seeing girls in other cities. Those all seem like good options.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date the other night.

It was from an app. One question was, she lived 40 mins away. I suggested a location, 5 min from my place. She said "I feel like it should be halfway because I don't know you and it isn't fair" or something along those lines. I said one "let's do the place I want this time and I'll come to you next." She didn't bite. I didn't want to deal with it, so next I said that I was coming from a place 25 mins in the opposite direction, so the date location was indeed in the middle of us.

My question is, is there a way to handle this, other than just saying what I said? Is there a way to reframe it? It seems like some girls just don't want to come to where you are. Although frankly if it's 40 min away then I'm not super surprised.

Anyway...

Before the date, I reviewed my list on my notes app of what to remember. Things I'm working on. Including, posture, chillness, vibe, and teasing. We met up for a drink. I teased her more than I usually do. I also teased her when we first saw each other, before going inside. We talked for a while, sharing things about us. I teased her, but not in a super hardcore or sexual way, more just playful.

I had planned beforehand that I would not invite her back, because then she would know I actually lived nearby. And I didn't want to otherwise find a way to explain it away ("Oh, it's my friend's place that he said I could use.") Basically, I just wanted to do the date for practice. After sitting and drinking our drinks for about 45 minutes, I said let's go walk around. We paid the tab and walked around. We went to a park, with good lighting, and sat on a bench and talked some more. I said I had to get going to go to sleep for an activity the next day (she was not a big partier and had told me as such beforehand, so this was totally something she said she would do, too. Meaning it wasn't totally unreliable to her.) We parted.

I'm glad I did the date, for practice. My playfulness, plus just my playful and teasing vibe was decent. I felt in the moment, deep diving, and also joking. I didn't feel nervous, but rather pretty carefree and not caring what anyone thought. This is good.

What wasn't so good is that I didn't sexualize very well if at all. At some point, you have to get close. I had her show me her necklace, to get closer. I need more ways to get close. I also could talk about sexual topics more. We talked about so much "friendly" stuff, that she probably sees me as, gasp, a friend. This is a sticking point I'm having. Turning it sexual.

I also hate that moment when you get closer, and she moves away. Not when you are at home, although that is frustrating for its own reasons. But rather when you're sitting there talking, and you move to get closer, and she closes up and moves away. I guess I need to get used to getting close to her, and doing the other sexualizing stuff, so that you can dip your toes into it at various times, then move back, verbally or physically, if she doesn't respond well. Rinse and repeat.

So sexualizing is still to work on. But much of the other stuff was good. Vibe (I thought), teasing (in general, if not a super sexual way), self-amusement/ being in the moment/ not caring what other people think. I hit a groove that was pretty decent. I put notes in my notes app to remember for next time to do. Onward and upward.

I was pondering on how to turn it sexual. I have done it in the past. What is the feeling I need to get to be in this state of mind? Then it hit me. You want to use the "underlook". This is more "predatory," and it adds great sexual energy to the interaction.

This is what I need to do. Partway through, after deep diving, switch into this underlook. This helps you get closer, too. It just gives you the feeling in your body of "I want this person." Then, through mirror neurons, she will feel that too. She might take it or leave it. But it will polarize, by turning it sexual, then you can go from there.

This is the thing I need to add to my dates. I put it in the notes app. Onward and upward some more.

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date the other night.

We met on an app. She worked weird hours, so she texted on a Saturday night around 6pm, and we met up at 9pm before she was going to work. We went for a drink at the place I often go. We talked about stuff. She was friendly and chatty. She qualified herself a couple of times. I tried something from the recent Alek Rolstad article about where to sit with a girl. We started out sitting across from each other. Then I suggested we walk around, so we did that. We sat on a bench, and I had her put her legs on top of mine. We also held hands. I pulled her over to me at one point, and leaned on me. She was pretty comfortable with touch and socializing in general and stuff, so she complied.

While we were at the place having drinks, I said we should go back to my place so we could talk. She said she would have to go soon so wouldn't have time, but perhaps we could walk around. She didn't have many "hobbies", just shopping, friends, hanging with her dogs. But when I asked if she did anything creative, she said her job. This was good, as she was qualifying. We also talked about solo travel, which she had done a little bit. So she qualified herself on being adventurous.

As far as escalating the vibe both physically and verbally, I liked the putting her legs on mine. That was a good compliance piece. Although, at this point, she was talking quite a bit, rather than "getting quiet", as the vibe can get when it's time to pull. I suspect what I should do when she is being talkative is bring her closer, just escalating physically the vibe. So you're escalating physically, while she is talking and stuff. We also talked about tattoos, which is a good sexy topic. I should probably have pulled her in closer when she brought that up, as a way of rewarding her.

I like Alek's article on where to sit, and the idea of starting at the first location sitting across from each other, then moving to a second location and sitting next to each other, and then doing things like putting her legs on yours and getting close and so forth. I like this approach overall. Although with this girl, and others who are healthy and slim, they often don't drink a lot. So, for example, they won't finish a cocktail, or struggle to. I kind of wish I just didn't have to deal with drinks. Maybe I could just split a cocktail with them, so we both won't feel the need to drink a lot. I don't like drinking either, I just do it because dating sort of requires it. And, for example with girls where you're trying to do multiple venues, do you order drinks at both? That could get quite expensive. And neither of us like drinking. So I'm not sure what the answer there is.

Weekend first dates aren't great because it is busy out and there is the weekend vibe. Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday nights are often great for first dates, because the vibe is more chill. And the music is less loud.

The girl was kinda funny. She was talking about how she goes out to the party street/area in the middle of the winter wearing crazy/sexy outfits. I suppose she might be telling me this as a way of escalating the vibe. I should have chase-framed her, saying "you're just trying to get me to picture you in a sexy outfit." That would be a good chase frame. On another note, it seemed kind of weird, because it's like her saying "I like flaunting my body to lots of men," which I can't imagine any guy likes to hear. So I'm not sure what her strategy there was. Again, maybe I can take it as the first thing, her trying to make it more sexual.

My banter and teasing has gotten better. At least banter. My teasing still could use some work. I did drink a bit though, and since I don't drink a lot, maybe I was a step behind. As far as escalating, I'm not sure how I can do it sexually. Physically, I can make some stuff up. Maybe the drinks do help, for giving me ideas of what my instincts want to do!

I could have tried to invite her home again. I maybe should have waited until after we were at the second location and the vibe was increased, then I could ask. Asking at the first place, she wasn't ready, and so got the "no." At the second, it might've worked better. I also don't love when the girl says she has to go somewhere afterwards. As in, should I try to get the whole seduction and sex done in 90 minutes? I guess that is basically the move. If you ask her home and she says no, aren't you basically cooked on a second date?

All this stuff just means I need to get better. Talk to more girls, escalate the vibe more, escalate physically, isolate, get private, get intimate. Go on more dates. More practice.

The second date location, it was out on a busy street. The quieter, darker park I wanted to go to was occupied by a private event, so we couldn't go there. This shows the importance of having plans, and backup plans. The busy street had more people and was brighter lit. Not as good, for intimate conversation. Also, I want a lower-stakes place to do the first date. For example, often when you get a cocktail, the girl feels the need to finish it, especially if you are paying for it. But slim girls don't drink very much (or else they wouldn't be slim!), so they take forever, and if you ask to leave they say not until I finish the drink. Then going to a second place, going for a drink is not appealing to them for the same reasons. So, what is the non-alcoholic dater to do, or at least to frame it? I'm not sure. Mini rant over.

I want a quiet, chill place to talk and escalate the vibe. But most places are loud and obnoxious. Especially on the weekend. That is actually why Mon-Wed are good nights. The places don't play music as loud.

Escalating the vibe physically when we were sitting at the second location actually felt pretty natural. She went along with it. If it were quieter and more private, I could have ramped it up even more. She eventually said she had to go, and we walked to her car. I pulled her in for a quick kiss before getting there, on the street. She rolled with it, but didn't seem into it in any manner. I wanted to do it because I wanted to show I could pull it off. I basically never kiss a girl before getting home, because I know it doesn't work. But I figured she's never coming back, so might as well do it to say I did it.

I thank Alek for writing the article on where to sit with a girl. I have written about that question in this thread numerous times beforehand. It also helps with my other sticking point of transitioning the vibe from connection to sexuality, during the date. The change of venue makes for a natural transition point. Although I have to figure out my venues and logistics as well.

My progress with dating and seduction has been somewhat slow and plodding. I hope to work on it more in the near future. Although my current job includes much more talking than in the past, which definitely helps my seduction efforts. Even though I hadn't been on many dates lately, I felt relatively "in flow" or "warmed up", because my job has me talking to people on a day to day basis. That is a good thing. Shocker of shockers, doing sales is good for seduction. And vice-versa.

 

[bobbyb112]

I had to cut things off with a girl I had been seeing.

We've been seeing each other for about 4 months. Around 3 months, she had asked if I would be exclusive, and I agreed. The other day, we talked and I said I wasn't comfortable doing the exclusive thing, and she said then she doesn't want to talk to me. She said some things. Not mean or dramatic, just it seemed like she was seeing us as potentially progressing to something in the future, it would seem. She left, and said she would likely never talk to me again. Fair enough.

I had been gearing myself up to have this conversation for a bit. At the end of the day, I didn't want to be in some "exclusive relationship" with her, and so I had to stop it. I'm a little disappointed in myself for any "collateral damage" that happens in this dating stuff. I didn't mean to lead her on, if that is the right word. I'm not even sure what she wanted long-term necessarily. She said she didn't want kids, ipso facto, why is a relationship important at all to her?

She said some words, not maliciously, like "I'm disappointed that you wasted my time." I said "I'm sorry if you feel that way." I think I kept my composure pretty well. Although I started getting close to tears at one point, which probably isn't good, because women hate when guys cry at all, lol.

I said the exclusive part, which left the door open to her being okay with non-exclusive. But, ironically, probably what put the nail in the coffin in a possibility of that was misting up. Girls hate seeing guys cry, ever. I didn't, of course, but that "weakness" probably turned her off to me forever. Oh well.

Frankly, this was the first time a girl has ever thought of me as a "girlfriend" or in a "relationship" with me. So it was kind of funny the kinds of things you say, when "breaking up." It sounded like it came right out of the movies. Emotional. I guess movies do come from real life stuff! Who knew.

Anyway, it had to happen. There was no way we would last longer term. Too many lifestyle differences, personality, etc.

But as far as getting "experience" running a "relationship", for 4 months at least, it was good experience. I'm glad I did it. At least until she asked for exclusivity. Maybe I should have ended it there. Or say I don't want exclusivity, and see what she does. That basically would have been the latest conversation, but have it a month ago. Might've been a better thing to do. That would essentially have made it an FWB type relationship, ending after 3 months. Fair enough. I guess you can say that I tried an "exclusive" relationship, and had some experience with that. I wasn't ready emotionally to end it after 3 months.

Maybe because I hadn't quite spent enough time with her yet, so wasn't still holding out hope that she could meet my girlfriend criteria. But we spent a long weekend together, much more time than we had before. This basically put the nail in the coffin, as I woke up in the morning on the last day of the weekend and thought "I need to get out of this." And finally, I had the courage to do it this week.

I am glad I ended it in person, though, rather than ghosting. That seems like the kind of thing some of the kids do these days. It is appropriate in some circumstances, but not here. This had to be done in person. So I'm glad I did that.

I can see why girls often, as the red-pill guys says, will cheat on a guy to break up with him instead of just breaking up with him. Reason being, having hard conversations is hard, and so it can be easier to cheat to force the guy to break up (or commit), rather than have a hard conversation. Hard conversations are hard. But the more you do them, the more "normal" they become, in life.

I can see, too, why many guys fall into the trap of "committing to the first girl who touches their pee-pee." Or, who does that, and then wants to see them and so forth. It can be easy to "go with the flow," with a girl who wants something committed. But often, the girl is less desirable than your ideal, and so you settle. Or, the phenomenon where when guys make a breakthrough in game get into a committed long-term relationship, since the girl is better than they've ever gotten before. This girl was better than I'd gotten before, though still not ideal, so I let her stay around for longer. It's almost like all this stuff has happened before!

This seems like it would be much harder to have cut this off if I hadn't worked on my game. Reason being, if you don't have as many options or experience, then you are more likely to get into relationships with less than ideal situations. Maybe you know you should cut bait, but you don't, because you aren't confident in your ability to get other girls.

I like the rule of not getting into an LTR until you have reached absolute abundance, as Chase says. Just keep working on your pickup and seduction skills. It makes things 200% easier in the future, when you have to replace a girlfriend, or whatever it is.

This game of life goes on. And experience helps you succeed better.

 

[bobbyb112]

Well, I think the girl I stopped seeing blocked me.

She sent a final long text, and said she hopes she never sees me again. Is that a successful ending to a (small) relationship? I'm not sure. Is that just how girls process break ups? I'm sure she needs time to herself to process it and stuff. I just hope I didn't hurt her too much, if at all. I honestly don't know what I might have done differently to prevent hurt feelings.

I tried to not see each other too often in the beginning. Frankly, I think I did that well. We only saw each other on average every 7-10 days. We didn't text much and didn't talk on the phone between seeing each other. Then around the 90-day mark she asked for exclusivity. I said we can try that. We did. We still didn't see each other too often, around once per week. But I guess she was still enjoying it and seeing it as going more.

Another thing she said, I didn't go down on her, and she said she didn't like that. Is it normal to go down on a girl? How many guys do this? Do they like it? I'm just curious because she did say it was important to her, but I said I didn't like doing it, so I didn't. What is normal here?

Frankly, though, I have been on the other side of the equation, being the guy who is more interested in the girl than she is in him. And so I understand her feelings at the moment. She is feeling like (justifiably) that she was more into it than I was. And so now she knows she has to cut herself off from me in order to get over it and whatnot. I did that in the past, with girls. So, live and you learn.

But how then can you prevent it? Maybe it's about being on roughly similar SMV. Also, as the guy anyway, not sleeping with her again and again if you don't want to turn her into a GF. Chase says he only does ONS or GF, no FWB. If you don't intend to turn a girl into a GF, don't keep seeing her. It is leading her on, unless you communicate explicitly that you want FWB. It is the male equivalent of a girl spending time with a guy that she doesn't intend on sleeping with. Something like that.

 

[gameboy]

Also, as the guy anyway, not sleeping with her again and again if you don't want to turn her into a GF. Chase says he only does ONS or GF, no FWB. If you don't intend to turn a girl into a GF, don't keep seeing her. It is leading her on, unless you communicate explicitly that you want FWB. It is the male equivalent of a girl spending time with a guy that she doesn't intend on sleeping with. Something like that.

Interesting insights. My experience is similar.

Maybe there can be exceptions, like girls you meet travelling. Then you can have more than a ONS and still no expectation of anything serious.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date the other night.

We met on an app. We went to the bar I for drinks I usually go with girls on first dates. We sat and talked. My flirting game was a little rusty. The friendly deep diving conversation was decent. I didn't sexualize well. I also wanted to move her, even if it was just to the bar from where we were sitting, or another venue. But I didn't really feel like it, so I didn't. The weather outside was also not good, so going and walking around wasn't an option. So we sat and talked for around 1.5 hours.

Her body language for much of it, her legs were crossed and turned away from me. Also her arms were folded for a bit of it. I don't love this body language, because it is closed off. I'm not sure if she was meaning to do this or not, or if it means she was closed off to me and not feeling it. But it's weird sitting next to each other, and her facing with her body basically away from me. It doesn't feel very inviting.

Despite that we seemed to get along. Although I don't think I was listening as well as I could have. After about an hour, I asked if she wanted to go back to mine for some wine and keep talking. She said she had to get up early so wouldn't be able to. I said that's fine and we kept talking. In the pull line, I like saying "and keep talking", because then it turns it more into another thing we can do together, and not just going back. In other words, it gives her some more plausible deniability, and then if she says no it is also less big of a deal. Which is good, because maybe she'll want to come out again. I will see if she wants to go out again, for the practice at least.

We went on a weeknight, which was a lot better for going out, because the bar is quieter and less busy. Rather than Fri or Sat, when it is very loud and busy and it's harder to talk. Although I could also potentially switch up my venues. One place I know is easier to talk, although it is not very dark/intimate.

For things to try, moving her around is definitely a clear next step. This basically always helps, when I have done it. The trouble is, I don't have places I want to move her. Or, it's hard changing venues when your drink is only half done, or even just started. What do?

I break down the seduction into a few stages. Teasing, connecting (deep diving), sexualizing/closer, quiet/pull, close. My teasing and sexualizing were off last night. These are what I need to work on.

 

[bobbyb112]

I was trying to set up a date with a girl the other day.

We had met on an app, and were texting to set up the date. She was uncommital, although we agreed no a time and I thought place. But then the day of, I tried to pin her down, and she said the place was too far and so she would have to arrive late. I said I hadn't planned on starting that late and so we would have to meet up another time. She said "um, okay then". I responded saying her lack fo communication and confirming made it so I scheduled something later that night, so it wouldn't work. She responded saying like she asked me the location the day of, which I had sent, at which time she asked to meet later because it was far. I said I had sent the location.

I'm not sure what the point of saying all this is. Maybe just that it's frustrating when someone seems like they want to do something, then isn't communicating well. Some people just don't get it. No, I can't push it back an hour! An hour is a long time. It'd be like asking an interview to be an hour later, the day of. No, I can't just shift things last minute. Lol.

Rant over. I guess some people just don't plan ahead. Or she doesn't like me enough to carve out time. A different girl I was setting things up with, we said a time and a place, 6 days before, and she replies "sounds good... see you then". That is a perfect response. It confirms that you will be there, that they expect you to be there, and if you don't say anything between now and then then the plan is still on. This is what effective communication looks like. Kudos to the good communicators.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a second date with a girl the other night.

The first time, we met up and had a drink and walked around the park and then I cut it early. It was kind of a comical thing, because I didn't want to invite her home, because she thought I lived in another city. So I didn't want to invite her back and have her realize I actually lived nearby. Lol. I also used that date as a way to practice my vibe and stuff, but knowing I wasn't going to invite her back. It actually kinda worked, and we seemed to enjoy my company.

This time, we met up nearby and got some food. We walked around. I invited her back to talk and stuff, and we went back. Put on some videos. Kissed and escalated, but she stopped herself when it got too far. Sat back and started watching TV again. Did this a few cycles, until she was sitting on top of me and kissing and stuff. But she pulled back again, and then back more. We watched some more TV, then she said she had to go.

I didn't want to push it too far. Meaning, after one of these cycles, she pulled back, and asked if what else I was doing that night. I'm not sure if this had a meaning, of either "let's do this" or "I'm trying to get myself to leave." Anyway, after that last cycle, I sort of didn't do another escalation round, and she said she would get going.

I didn't want to push it too far, and ruin chances of her seeing me again. I'm not sure if this will end up being the right move, but it is what I did. I like that I was riding the vibes more, rather than just blindly trying to move forward. I think this is better, where you are responding to her, and if she pulls back, then you just let her go, and reset, being non-needy.

My vibe on the date was good. I could feel it. We were vibing in a more friendly manner while eating food. Then after we finished eating, we could talk more. My movements and voice was slow and sensual. She was feeling that. It created a bit of a bubble. We went and walked around. We were both kind of quiet, ready for the pull. I suggested hanging out at mine, and we went.

On the one hand, it seems like you generally should try to sleep with her on the first date. On the other hand, I guess maybe I'm not quite there, for girls who aren't immediately down for it. But this is good. I'm creating a bubble of sexual tension or emotion or whatever. She was willing to meet up a second time, which is a step in the right direction. Also, it was a few weeks apart, which I see as an indicator that I had a good impression on her the first time, which is why she was pretty readily wanting to meet up the second time.

How I created the vibe and bubble, it was a very specific thing I did. But it is so esoteric and odd that I don't want to describe it here. But worked. So I want to try using it again. I think it might be a big breakthrough for vibe and creating tension and the bubble.

Something I'm not sure about, Chase has mentioned quite a bit about telling her that you're not boyfriend material, for the purpose of making you seem more like a lover, and therefore she is willing to sleep with you faster. This is interesting, because I don't think I have ever consciously done this. I just never have tried it. It might be worth trying, somehow.

One thing that wasn't so good was when we were kissing with her on top, she was grabbing my had and neck. This isn't good. It is letter her dominate you. You want her hands to be on your body, rather than touching your head or face. I moved them down, but she definitely did it some. Have to not let girls do that.

 

[bobbyb112]

I went on a date with a girl.

She was 30 years old. We got coffee, went to a park, I invited her back to watch a movie, we went. Eventually we had sex. She said she wanted to see again. I texted the next day about meeting up again in the next few days. I'm not sure how long you should wait after that first time. If she is into you, wouldn't she want it to be sooner rather than later? I would think so.

She was really into me before the date, and on the date, for some reason. It felt like she might be liking an image of me she had in her head, rather than anything I had done, necessarily. She kept complementing my looks. I wasn't sure if this was her being flirtatious, or making it clear she was interested in me, or what. Maybe this girl had high-functioning autism or something.

I resonate a bit with the Barney Stinson scene where he says something like "you know what girl is hotter than any girl I've ever slept with? Any girl I haven't already slept with." I guess the point of this quote is that after you sleep with a girl, you feel like you've conquered, and so you turn your attention to another. Maybe that just comes from liking "the conquest", the seduction process, making the deal happen. Rather than the relationship-building part, which is longer-term.

I mean, this is a rather healthy outlook, if you are working on your seduction skills, and don't want to take on a girlfriend, while you are practicing and leveling up your skills. You are working on the pickup part, not the relationship part. So it makes sense.

Anyway, we started texting about plans for a second date. She thought I was inviting her straight over to drink wine and have sex. She said it feels like it's all about sex, and that's not what she wants. I responded back clarifying what I meant, which was about plans, rather than just coming over to have sex. She unmatched me on the app, so she probably isn't going to reach out again. She also asked for my insta over text. I'm not sure if this was before or after she unmatched me. Or, maybe, maybe she even deleted the app, because she met a guy so cool (me). Stranger things have happened.

Anyway, here is my question. When you're seeing a girl, especially in the beginning stages, how often do you go out and eat or whatever when you meet up? I thought Chase's MO was to have them come just straight over and have sex. Maybe it is a balance. For example, if you only have her come straight over for sex, then it can seem too much like you're not wanting anything serious with her.

My issue is, I strongly dislike going out to eat and drink. Like, it makes my life worse. That being the case, how do you spend time with women, in a way that they enjoy? Like, do they just like eating and drinking stuff? And also, as far as it not "being about sex", isn't that the point of a relationship? Can't she eat food and drink wine with her girlfriends? Or, other platonic paramors? Maybe I need to dial up my sexiness and down my boyfriend presentation, to fill the lover role more.

Having a woman in your life is funny. Maybe I should screen them for liking to cook food. So she can cook food for me. So she can add value to my life. You need to give a way for women to add value to your life. A way for her to invest in you, so she feels invested, and feels more connected to you. Food seems like a good way to do that.

Anyway, my choice is, do I wait for this girl to get back, or go on a date with a new girl that night. The clock is ticking, I need to respond to the new girls!

If I wanted to potentially keep this girl for something longer-term, perhaps what I should have done, is ask her about her relationship history after having sex. Because then you're sort of getting an understanding about each other. And it shows you are considering her for a long-term thing. If you don't do that, then she might assume that you just aren't thinking about her for something longer-term. I didn't do it, because we had already talked a lot, and she sort of had to leave. But I could/ should/ would have done it. Oh well. Live and learn.

Having this more experience makes me feel for women. They are in a tough situation. Follow their emotions, and sleep with chads who won't commit. Or make a logical decision, and date nice guys, and hate their lives. No winning. But hey, that's life I guess.

Another thing is, the sex wasn't very good. It didn't last long. This doesn't buy you much time with her. You really want to rock her world, as much as possible, that first time, so she will want to do it again. She will cut you more leeway with other mistakes, I imagine, too. I didn't sex her good, and now I am paying the price, in her not wanting to see me again. Sex the women well, lads.

My concern there is, I try to not masturbate at all, because it gives you great sexual energy and charisma and all that. Then, however, when you do have sex, it is hard to keep from cumming too soon. This has happened a few times for me. On the flip side, you masturbate, you go to have sex with the woman, and you can't get it up. This has happened twice to me. So, what is the solution? Probably stick with the first version, but focus on being in the moment, so you don't ejaculate too soon. As Chase talks about in his article. And go slowly. All the methods there to make sure you last longer. That definitely would have helped.

As for the date itself, I did some things well. I deep-dived, using Chase's framework that he put on twitter recently. 1. what do you do for work 2. how long have you been doing that 3. how do you like it. 4. what would you do if you could anything and get paid the same. This is a great way to get the conversation going.

I found out other things about her past, like what her dad was like. Activities she did. We talked about travel. I'm trying to figure out how I can get "deeper" on subjects like activities (sports, music, dancing, arts, yoga), and travel (freedom I guess?).

I did move closer to her at some point. I didn't have a ton of touch, but when I moved closer she stayed still, and it did seem to register as sexual interest and intent. Maybe I should go out at night more, and do some physical touch dancefloor game, to get me used to it and doing it a lot.

As far as giving non-judgemental frames, I'm not sure how to do this. I guess you could just joke about something seemingly out of the mainstream, and say "hey I'm cool with it all" or "whatever floats your boat". This is a generally open-minded frame. I'm not sure if it is sexual open-mindedness, necessarily, though. It seems like there is a lot of this kind of stuff that I could do better.

Another is your voice and how it sounds. I haven't paid much attention to this for a while, but I feel like it could be improved. Another is teasing and flirting. I just generally have a lot of things I want to work on.

I was thinking about the date and reflecting on it a little more. I think part of what is going on with this girl is that she wanted me for a boyfriend (or more?) candidate, but after one too many things seeming like I just wanted sex, she auto-rejected, and so stopped responding. For example, she said how her friend had a pickleball thing going on the next day, and joked about if I wanted to come. I said not tomorrow, but that I wasn't against the idea of pickleball in the future. I probably could have softened this "rejection" of her idea. Making some excuse like I already had plans tomorrow.

At the same time, I don't want to waste time by saying I might want to do something when I don't. For example, if someone asks "do you want to come over and watch football?", I say "no." It answered their question, and moreover gets the point across that I don't like watching football. I guess with this girl, it's a matter if you want to encourage this type of question in the future. Frankly, on a first date, it seems premature to ask about activities with her friends, or even bring it up as a possibility. I was thinking to myself, surely she must be joking. But maybe she has not gone on that many dates and stuff, and didn't have a more subtle way to see if I wanted to so something while being able to save face for both of us.

This is a real benefit to having good social skills. Being able to save face for you and the other person, even if the answer to a given ask is "no". She probably has not gone on as many dates and stuff, despite being 30. So she doesn't know how to get what she wants without it coming across as ham-fisted. Guys, of course, are a similar way. This is why social skills are useful, as a man. I remember one article by Chase says how when you get to a certain level, you actually help girls to get with you, because they are nervous and not quite sure how to get with you. I'll have to re-read that article, to remember what it says.

Another takeaway is that I have to pay more attention to the girl, to calibrate myself and what we talk about and everything. My process right now is somewhat rigid and just doing it, and inviting her home, etc. Meaning, I'm not calibrating myself as well to her as I could be. Or at least I don't think I am, because I am not aware if I am doing it. I want to pay attention to this. So much to work on!

 

[bobbyb112]

I was going to go on a second date with a girl, but she was upset about the election, so didn't want to meet up.

Somehow she asked about the election. Asked where I stood. I said I didn't really care. She said if I didn't want to take a stand like her, then she didn't want to date. So she cancelled the second date.

I'm speechless. I didn't know people got that worked up about elections, or politics in general. On a more practical level, I'm not sure how I could have played it. I said I didn't care enough about politics to think or talk about it. Then changed the subject. Then she said she didn't want someone who didn't take a stand like her. Whatever that means.

My guideline for myself is to not talk about politics, or religion, virtually ever. I guess girls don't have that rule for themselves. Or, they succumb to it, and sabotage otherwise potentially good things they otherwise could have. Oh well.

I'm not sure how to play it, though. It's funny when people talk about politics. Do they know it makes them sound like someone emotional, or drunk? Like, nobody cares about your beliefs. Do I just smile and nod? The answer is generally yes. And they don't get how you can disagree with them.

People get all worked up about the election. What's to get worked up about? Just live your life.

Anyway, I'm not sure what I could have texted, there. Maybe just ignore it? Joke around with it? Just say "everything is going to be okay"? I'm not sure what to say.

Maybe being chill, cool, and dare I say normal, she will circle back around and want to meet up again. There is an element of, I can tell she is sort of wigged out about the election result, so you might have to match that energy, before steering it to more productive things. Like, yeah, things are crazy out there. What are you gonna do though (shrug emoji). Anyway, excited to see you tonight (smile emoji). Or, ask about something personal to her that you know is going on, if you know, like a hobby.

By doing this, you mirror her, then move it to something more productive. She might still stay on it, though. She probably has spent all day chit-chatting with her coworkers about how it is the end of the world and such. So that is why she is in such a tizzy. Maybe when things calm down, she will think back and be like, that guy was chill, and I would like to see him again. It seems like it is such an emotionally charged day for some people, that maybe it was just poor timing on my part to schedule it on such a day. But hey, the world moves on. I don't have the bandwidth to schedule dates around the super bowl, election, olympics, or any other such random things that don't really concern my life.

 

[KJ Francis]

I was going to go on a second date with a girl, but she was upset about the election, so didn't want to meet up.

Somehow she asked about the election. Asked where I stood. I said I didn't really care. She said if I didn't want to take a stand like her, then she didn't want to date. So she cancelled the second date.

I'm speechless.

Sounds like attitude similarity", part of @Chase 's SAC attraction model. Basically shared values. Before you try to cut the conversational thread, you could hone in on one aspect you agree with.

Like perhaps support her agency over her body (abortion rights), connect on freedoms in a sexually progressive society, then cut to something like the unfairness gambit about gender double standards surrounding promiscuity.

 

[bobbyb112]

Question: What do you do for fun with a girl you're seeing?

Is it dinner? A walk outdoors? A movie? I have trouble finding things to do that are different. I guess a little of everything is good. You can go for a walk sometimes, dinner sometimes, maybe a movie or other random stuff every now and then.

This sounds funny, but I don't get too excited about that stuff. I don't really get excited about sex, either, for that matter. What I really like is my hobbies, and my "mission". But I like the idea of having women in my life. So how do I spend time with them? I guess the answer is just to plan a night of the week, for example, and go out for dinner or whatever. Don't let it get in the way of the things you really want to do. And then, when it is over, leave and go do the things you like doing. Easy.

 

[bobbyb112]

I want to reflect on two experiences.

So, a while back, I went on a date with a 26 yo Mexican girl. We got drinks, and I teased her somewhat hard. I was testing out my teasing, being more fun and teasing a lot, busting her stones, and things like that. We got together and had sex. We did a few times after that, too. But after the first time, and other times, she said that I was a "jerk". I took to mean that she thought of me as a sexy jerk, who would sleep with her, but wouldn't seriously date her or have her as a girlfriend. When I would text her to meet up again, she would say like "yeah I'm not seeing anyone else yet, so I guess I will come over".

It seemed like she saw me as a somewhat unattainable "jerk", who she could have sex with, but wouldn't be attainable for anything more.

Next example...

With a girl I have been seeing, I decided to ramp my "funness" and "teasing" when I saw her last. I did, and it was fun (for me anyway). Now, she is texting, asking me if I consider us FWB's, because that is what it seems like what I want. I deflected the question, saying let's talk about it when we are in person next, and setting a time for our next meet up. The shift that seems like it took place was, she thought of me as an attainable guy who would want to date her, and she would want to date. But with me teasing her, now it might seem to her like I am an unattainable "fun" guy who wouldn't consider her for something serious.

My question is, when I tease, does that make me seem unattainable? Are my reads on the situation above accurate? Should I just not tease girls as much? Should I get better calibrating my teasing, so that I give just the right amount for a given girl?

I wrote about me teasing a few months ago, with that Mexican girl. It seems like when I tease too much, I come across as a "jerk". This is better than "nice guy". But not as good as "genuine man". I suppose since I haven't teased a ton in the past, then I overdid it with these girls, and indeed went into jerk zone. I suppose a solution is to do it more in general, and then calibrate it back, so that you know just the right amount to do.

It the moment, it is annoying that with these two girls, that my teasing sent them into, what seems like, autorejection. Meaning, I would not be against dating that Mexican girl, because she had a lot of good GF qualities. But she just didn't see me as attainable for that. Same with this current girl. I don't want to rule out turning her into a GF, because there are a lot of good qualities there. But it seems like my teasing might have pushed her more towards the zone of autorejection.

I will calibrate it. But it is worth trying to practice on girls who I am not seeing already. That way, I don't have to mess up current things. And, I can just practice it in general, to see how it is. Teasing is an interesting sword. It can take you out of the nice guy zone. But too far and too much, and you end up a jerk. Then you have to pull it back. All stuff to work on.

On a different note...

Another thing I wonder. When you are seeing a girl, what do you do with her? Do you go out to dinner with her, like one day a week, when you see her? Do you invite her straight over for a drink and watch TV and sex? Reason I ask is, spending time with women seems like a real time sink. Watching TV? Blech. Eating dinner out more than once per week? Blech. Ordering take out food? Blech. How does one successfully spend time with a woman? Genuinely curious.

Related to that is, do you pay for her food or drinks, in the 0-3 months period when you are seeing her? I would think no. Have her pay for her food, or half the food in general. Because I don't want to spend all my money paying for her food. Or, how can you eat healthy food, while dating a woman? Eating out is unhealthy. I dont' know. Then you say "let's stay in, not eat food, watch a show, have sex, and leave", and they say "I feel like all you want is sex". What do we do with our time together, play board games?

I think the bigger-picture advice for this is, spend more time working on getting new girls and seduction, rather than "hanging out" with one fo the girls you got. Focus on pickup and seduction first.

 

[bobbyb112]

I had a date the other night.

It was from an app. We met up at a bar. Got drinks. Talked. Vibed. Eventually invited her back. Kissed, fooled around. Got naked in bed. She said she didn't want to have sex tonight, though. Continued to kiss and mess around. Eventually she got up to pee, and came back and said she was tired and had to go. She left.

During the date, I used my newfound smirk, and teased a bit. Not too much, but some. She seemed to like it. She was smiley throughout. You could feel after talking about deep dive stuff after a bit, that I wanted to get closer to her. So I moved to the side of the table where she was, saying "so that I could hear her." It was kind of an awkward transition to move sitting next to her. But you kinda gotta do it, to sit near her, and get close physically. Alternatively, as Alek has said, you can bounce to a second venue, and sit next to her there. I can see that this would likely work. I just don't want to spend the time to logistically find another place, and second, pay for drinks, which she will feel the need to finish drinking before we go back to mine. In other words, it just seems too long and cumbersome. But I see how it can help, for having her follow your lead and build experiences together.

I had some decent frames during the date. Some innuendos, a sexual joke. Turning it sexual. Touching her a bit. She didn't touch back in a big way, but also didn't reject my touch. She smiled quite a bit throughout.

Back at my place, she pretty readily kissed. When I suggested going to the bed, she said she was on her period. I said that's fine, we can put down a towel. She said no, I don't want to do it tonight. But went to the bed anyway.

Here, I'm not sure if I should try to understand what she is saying, like if she really doesn't want to have sex because she is on her period, or if she is just using it as an excuse to not have sex the first night. There, should I stop and try to understand her more, or just back off and keep going. Probably, I should verbally acknowledge it, like "that's not a problem", and then keep going. I don't think I said anything this time here, although I have in the past. This time, I was rather tired and a little bit tipsy from the drink. So I wasn't in a very communicative mood. You probably want to communicate verbally here, though, because it keeps communication open, and shows that you are considering her and aren't just going to charge forward regardless of what she says. That was a mistake on my part this time that I don't want to make sure to do better going forward.

So, there were some deep dives, then sexual frames, then touching and getting close. THere was even a "quiet" or "awkward" part in the conversation, where I maybe could have invited her home. That was relatively early on. It was even before sexualizing and touching her. She asked if I had roommates. I could have treated this as a pull signal. I guess I could have gone for the pull there. But I didn't want to, not having gotten physically close and touched and all that yet. But I did feel the need to move things forward. This is when I moved to her side of the table. Which was good, in that it was moving things forward by touching. But I wonder if there is a good way I could have invited her back at that point, and if she was ready for it. That is something to look out for in the future.

I think my MO for handling LMR is basically say "that's not a problem", meaning everything is okay, no worries, and then just continue anyway. I didn't quite do that this time. But this is something I've done in the past, and is all I can think of at the moment to handle LMR. The real goal is to prevent LMR, by doing the other parts of the process well, so that when she gets back to your place, she knows what to expect.

I'm probably coming across as too much of a boyfriend rather than lover, still. This girl was 29. I wonder how I can highlight more of my lover qualities, to be a lover. Moving fast, using the cute and sexy look, smirking, teasing, touching, those all probably help. I'm not sure if things like talking about family or siblings is good, girls often ask about siblings for some reason.

I definitely don't push as hard to overcome LMR as effectively when I am tired. I was tired, too, since we met up later in the evening, and it was close to when I usually go to sleep. That's one reason why I enjoy weekend afternoon dates. You are awake and can think on the fly, rather than a weeknight when you are tired from the day. I don't know what the solution is here, necessarily. I guess it's just an excuse, for both you and her. Make it happen. Make her want you, to matter what time of day.

 

[bobbyb112]

I read Chase's article on starting a relationship, so I want to reflect on it here.

He says to start off with minimal outside stuff besides you, your conversation, and good sex. For example, parties, dinners, movies, adventures, money, things like that. Because, if you start off doing lots of those things, if you ever don't have the time to do them later, then she will feel like the relationship is going backwards. She will attach her relationship early to whatever you give her. So you want to start out with the minimal stuff. Then you can ramp it up later, such as the 90 day mark, or 2 year mark.

In the few "relationships" I've been in, meaning seeing her more than 3 times, in 2 of them, we got into a rhythm of getting dinner/food, then sex at home. Chase says that nowadays, his early relationships are just the girl coming over, having sex, maybe watch a show, maybe eat some food, and that's it. I like this. But with these girls, we got into a rhythm of going out to eat. Not anything super fancy, but eating out. Which definitely does cost more. So that might've been a mistake.

One girl, she seemed more willing to just come over, rather than go out to eat anything. So I guess it is doable. What about, when you invite her out for the second "date", do you have her come straight to yours? Have a drink again, outside of your house? Over, then eat something? I suppose coming across as the lover helps here. If she sees you as a highly sexual man, then just coming over to hang out, converse, and have sex makes sense.

Is it something you can avoid, going out to eat? It's not anything fancy as far as dinners. It's just, I would prefer her not to attach her emotions about me to that stuff. So I'm not sure if I am messing up here, and/or could use some improvement. Good to think about.